BCM Community

     A couple of questions regarding a fairly-large-capacity (3.5K -- 4K Watt) 24V inverter .....

1)  In your opinion, what's the best inverter like this made and available in the market, price no object?

2)  If you had to balance price and "best", what would your choice be?

     Thanks for your experience and opinions on this.   BH    NC   USA

I researched this for a long time and found that the Magnum Hybrid 4000 watt inverter was the right one to have for RV use.  The MSH4024 is designed for mobile or home use, has a very good battery charger, can pass through or augment mains power, has a good remote control, battery temp sensor, can start a generator.  There are more expensive units available, but I saw none that offered greater value.  I bought the MS4024, without the hybrid capability, because it was significantly cheaper at the time, and my dealer didn't have stock of the MSH anyway.  One  reason I chose Magnum was the word on the street was their factory support was good.

Brian

Look at the outbacks, top quality, put two in and you can have 220

Any of the pure sine wave inverter chargers of today are excellent. Both of the ones being used in expensive conversions were mentioned previously. I have a pair of OUtback and they have been great.

Outback was my second choice, the difference being the dealer I picked had the Magnum as their "house" brand.  Little to choose from between them, they are both top shelf.

Are pure sine wave inverters really necessary ? or are they just the cats meow ?
i have never regretted not having a pure sine wave.
the Trace models  and early Xantrex models have always done the job.

No, they're not really necessary for a number of applications typical to rv use, but they are better for everything that depends on a sine wave to function more efficiently.  The things that are affected least by a square wave inverter are things that are purely resistive loads, like a light bulb or a heating element.  Things that are affected a lot more are things that require a sine wave to operate efficiently, like an electric motor or a microwave oven, or anything with a transformer in it.  some things just operate at reduced power, other things like motors actually fight the incoming square wave power and run hotter, and in microwaves the magnetron tube and it's transformer can be damaged.  Things like battery chargers can be ruined pretty quickly, other things like TV's or things with multi-voltage power supplies could care less.  Anything that depends on detecting the zero crossing point of the AC signal for timing, like a clock, won't work right.

Pure sine is just better for everything.  They are getting a lot cheaper, I have a 1,000 watt cheapie model that I paid less than $200 for.  For those that are fond of arcane technical trivia, a pure sine wave inverter actually puts out something called a pulse width modulated square wave signal that is fairly high frequency (around 20Khz), the average voltage of which mimics the voltage of an actual sine wave from a generator, and so the signal, as soon as it gets a little filtering, looks exactly like a sine wave, but is made up of a whole bunch of tiny little square wave pulses.

Brian

We've had 2 Heart Freedom 25s which are (antique) MSW inverters.  They have both been excellent and have run absolutely everything we have ever hooked up to them with one major exception - electric blankets/mattress pads.  I don't think the pad itself cared about the power source but the controllers are another story altogether.  We had one which would start blinking whenever it saw inverter power but would recover if you unplugged it and then fed it mains power.  The other one died instantly even though it was nominally "off" when it saw the inverter power.  Like a complete moron I managed to do that twice with the same model of blanket.  As a result of that we now have an electric blanket with fully analog controls - it was extremely hard to find one but they are out there. 

Other than the blanket situation we've run computer bricks, wall warts, fridges, freezers, air compressors, microwaves, stoves, coffee pots, televisions, DVRs - literally everything through the inverter.  We've been tied to an abandoned dock for a week now alternating between generator and inverter power and we pay absolutely zero attention to what is turned on.  As long as the batteries stay above 60% life is good. 

I have a Trace 4024 (no longer made) that confuses the clock on the microwave. Other than that it runs everything fine including the step-up transformer for the mini-splits. The thing that I really like is it's ability to boost the income AC power. If it is on a 15 amp outlet and the load increases to 40 amps it will make up the difference from the batteries and recharge the batteries when the load drops back under 15 amps. If the load doesn't drop back down before the batteries reach the voltage cut-out, it will start the generator. So far as I know only the Magnum Hybrid 4000 watt has those features of the inverters currently available and it would probably run my clock; not enough for me to upgrade.

Truth is the older Traces were advertised as a modified wave, why ?  because (as I was told) there is no inverter that puts out an exact replication of a "pure" sine wave .

Show me an oscilloscope of a "pure" sine wave, produced by an inverter of any design/manufacture, I have not seen it.

Some square waves are better than others.

I have not lost any devices yet.

Quote from: Lee Bradley on February 18, 2015, 11:19:07 AMI have a Trace 4024 (no longer made) that confuses the clock on the microwave. Other than that it runs everything fine including the step-up transformer for the mini-splits. The thing that I really like is it's ability to boost the income AC power. If it is on a 15 amp outlet and the load increases to 40 amps it will make up the difference from the batteries and recharge the batteries when the load drops back under 15 amps. If the load doesn't drop back down before the batteries reach the voltage cut-out, it will start the generator. So far as I know only the Magnum Hybrid 4000 watt has those features of the inverters currently available and it would probably run my clock; not enough for me to upgrade.

     I currently have an Outback that does not do the income boost and I find it a PITA to unplug, fire up the generator, run a load, then reverse the process when the load is completed.  If I try to pull more than the power I've specified, the whole thing (inverter, charger, etc.) just crumples.  The "make up the difference" thing is what I thought that I was getting with the Outback and didn't and that has really disappointed me.
     Reason I ask (first post) is the I'm going to a new engine and 12V will not be available in the amount needed to run an inverter.  Since I need to go to a 24V inverter for this and other reasons, I wanted to go to a good one. 
     Thanks for all the good info and experience.  BH   NC   USA

edit out, I linked the wrong page.

I think this you-tube video has live screen shots of pure sine wave inverter output.  I didn't watch the whole thing, I am on a bandwidth limited internet connection.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Koc9rR4ad4Q (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Koc9rR4ad4Q)

All the better stuff I have found is in PDF format, and I don't know how to link PDF's

brian

That's all well and good, but I am comparing high quality PSW vs high quality MSW.... still not convinced, i have owned both and havenot suffered any losses or noticeable deterioration of end uses. the difference can be $1000.00 plus ...

Quote from: bevans6 on February 18, 2015, 02:39:01 PM
edit out, I linked the wrong page.

I think this you-tube video has live screen shots of pure sine wave inverter output.  I didn't watch the whole thing, I am on a bandwidth limited internet connection.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Koc9rR4ad4Q (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Koc9rR4ad4Q)

All the better stuff I have found is in PDF format, and I don't know how to link PDF's

brian

What it boils down to is if you have high quality older MSW stuff that is working for you and you are happy, stick with it.  There are no high quality MSW inverter chargers made today, so if you are buying new, buy a great current, modern pure sine unit.  I wouldn't change out something that was working either.

Brian

Agreed.  ;D,
having said that, if I were on a budget and found an old TRACE for 1/3 the cost of a Magnum...well I'd certainly consider the Trace. It is also a bit easier to decide if you know what your looking at.  (age wear and tear and abuse).

Quote from: bevans6 on February 18, 2015, 04:10:32 PM
What it boils down to is if you have high quality older MSW stuff that is working for you and you are happy, stick with it.  There are no high quality MSW inverter chargers made today, so if you are buying new, buy a great current, modern pure sine unit.  I wouldn't change out something that was working either.

Brian

When you need service Magnum will be winner - FWIW

The Magnum Hybrid 4000 Brian mentioned earlier is what Chrome Dome has in his MC-5C, and I'm seriously considering picking one up myself.  The Tortoise's electrical is very late '70s and could use an upgrade.

Seems this model is running about $2300 on various online retailers.

FWIW & HTH. . .

;)

Quote from: RJ on February 19, 2015, 12:36:43 AMThe Magnum Hybrid 4000 Brian mentioned earlier is what Chrome Dome has in his MC-5C, and I'm seriously considering picking one up myself.  ...

    Thanks.  The specs on this one appear to indicate that it does genuine "load sharing" -- i.e. if you are on a 15 amp shore power supply and The Management plugs in a coffee maker while she runs her hair dryer and pulls 20 amps, it will still only pull 15 amp from the shore power and supplement temporarily with battery power, then recharge the batteries when the load is reduced.  Is it correct that it does this?  I also want "smart charging", a low-battery auto generator start capacity, and the similar things you'd expect from a modern inverter/charger.  Is there anything that this unit lacks?  I *really* don't want to buy a second inverter and be disappointed again.

Quote from: RJ on February 19, 2015, 12:36:43 AMFWIW & HTH. . .   ;) 

    It sure does!  Where I come from, "here's how I think spending my money is smart" is worth a lot more than "here's how I think you should spend your money".

My outback does everything including starting the gen, maybe you got a cheaper stripped down model oompah jay? They are built to military specs and are used in labs that need precise voltage. Maybe you hooked it up wrong?

I'm been saving my pennies for this one:
http://www.theinverterstore.com/3000-watt-pure-sine-inverter-charger-24-volt.html (http://www.theinverterstore.com/3000-watt-pure-sine-inverter-charger-24-volt.html)

Quote from: digesterman on February 19, 2015, 04:55:24 AMMy outback does everything including starting the gen, maybe you got a cheaper stripped down model oompah jay? They are built to military specs and are used in labs that need precise voltage. Maybe you hooked it up wrong?  

     Maybe I did get it hooked up wrong, and the gen start works just fine.  And I love the "Mate" controller; it's a simple and logical "tree" arrangement to set the parameters.  In fact, it works well except for the "load sharing" which the tech guy at Outback says that it is NOT designed to do.  If you go over the limits set on input amperage, it goes over to 100% draw off the batteries.  
     I am pretty sure that I got the full-featured model (it's small - a FX 2012 MT but it seems to have all the features, except for the load-sharing).  I've been all over the programming manual and discussed it with the Outback tech guy.  It's a great unit in a lot of ways but if you're forced into limited shore power arrangements (as I am) it has a pretty substantial drawback.

Quote from: Tikvah on February 19, 2015, 05:37:36 AMI'm been saving my pennies for this one:
http://www.theinverterstore.com/3000-watt-pure-sine-inverter-charger-24-volt.html (http://www.theinverterstore.com/3000-watt-pure-sine-inverter-charger-24-volt.html)  

    Thanks, Dave.  Yeah, that looks like a lot of performance for not much $$$, I think I need to make a spreadsheet to matrix features and capabilities.  But if I'm going to an inverter that will make power off batteries charged by a 50DN 24V generator "down the road", I think it appears worth going to a 4K unit.  I'll look to see if they have a 4K version in that line.

(Edit:  Yep, under $1000.)

In one case my starts the gen when needed, in another there is a iota charger built into the system that supplements power as needed, if the power requirements exceed those capabilities then the outback starts gen. I have a pretty complex system in my coach, will have to look again at what it is doing when power needs exceed battery capacity and BEFORE it triggers gen. There must be a point where it (system) utilizes shore power, even if limited. Jon has outbacks too, wonder if he knows the steps that are taken when additional power is needed with limited shore power.

Quote from: digesterman on February 19, 2015, 06:02:58 AMIn one case my starts the gen when needed, in another there is a iota charger built into the system that supplements power as needed, if the power requirements exceed those capabilities then the outback starts gen. I have a pretty complex system in my coach, will have to look again at what it is doing when power needs exceed battery capacity and BEFORE it triggers gen. There must be a point where it (system) utilizes shore power, even if limited. Jon has outbacks too, wonder if he knows the steps that are taken when additional power is needed with limited shore power. 

     Thanks, Lee.   All this electrical and electronic stuff is not my strong suit and I very well may be doing something incorrect/stupid.  I have an unusually small fuel capacity, too, so I have to be careful with the generator starting often and/or with long run times (this is an issue I plan to rectify but I have more pressing work on my plate in the short term).  Thanks for your thoughts on this;  I agree that the Outback has a lot to love and it seems solid as a rock -- based on my experience with mine, I'd recommend them in a minute to someone for whom the power sharing issue isn't important -- it's just that they don't seem to take care of my (probably rare and unusual) pressing need. 

Quote from: Tikvah on February 19, 2015, 05:37:36 AM
I'm been saving my pennies for this one:
http://www.theinverterstore.com/3000-watt-pure-sine-inverter-charger-24-volt.html (http://www.theinverterstore.com/3000-watt-pure-sine-inverter-charger-24-volt.html)

Tikvah, I had one of those (or a clone, they sell through a number of different brands) and it burnt out it's output section when my air conditioner started once.  Totally ruined, could not be repaired, was a couple of weeks out of warranty and the factory said we'll give you 10% off on a new one.  Mind you, they gave everyone 10% off on a new one.

I personally wouldn't touch one with a ten foot pole, but that's just me and my experience.  It's also why it took me close to a year to finally commit to a new Magnum.  I was scared silly I was wasting another very large chunk of change.

Brian

I think the only thing the magnum doesn't do is piggyback to get split phase 240 volt for dryer's and such.  I think they have other home-oriented models for that.

Brian

As Lee points out I do have a pair of Outback inverters and they have an abundance of features, but my coach is set up so a generator protection device takes over the role of auto-starting the generator.

Since I rarely dry camp I have set my inverters for the lowest possible charge rate so if the charger kicks in when I am on the power pole and using a lot of current to run AC units plus a lot of other goodies I will not trip the breaker, plus I am not in favor of a lot of the features built in so I manually manage power and do not rely on the inverter capabilities. Call me old school.

About pure sine wave, the need for it is real. More and more devices including appliances will not function properly or will have premature failures if they are run on modified sine wave. Refrigerators are significantly affected, but anything with an electric motor could also be affected. Even if your coach has older appliances it makes sense to use pure sine wave so if you do upgrade your invertrers will take care of the new appliances.

Quote from: Oonrahnjay on February 19, 2015, 05:57:12 AM
    Thanks, Dave.  Yeah, that looks like a lot of performance for not much $$$, I think I need to make a spreadsheet to matrix features and capabilities.  But if I'm going to an inverter that will make power off batteries charged by a 50DN 24V generator "down the road", I think it appears worth going to a 4K unit.  I'll look to see if they have a 4K version in that line.

(Edit:  Yep, under $1000.)

this would be a trickle charger on a large house bank .... and makes no mention of 4 stage charging, i would do much more research here.
Charger Specifications:
Output voltage: Depends on battery Type
Charger Rate: 45A

According to Outback they have the systems that do indeed have the load sharing features.
Pure sine wave only way to go, have used both for many many years and PS is so far superior and the cost has came down so much it would really be foolish not to go that route. To each his own tho

Quote from: Tikvah on February 19, 2015, 05:37:36 AM
I'm been saving my pennies for this one:
http://www.theinverterstore.com/3000-watt-pure-sine-inverter-charger-24-volt.html (http://www.theinverterstore.com/3000-watt-pure-sine-inverter-charger-24-volt.html)

Brian's right  -  this looks like one of the infamous AIMS inverters that The Inverter Store so likes to sell.   I'm also researching for an inverter, and everything I've read so far tells me they're a complete waste of money.   I'm narrowing my choices down to probably something from Cotek (who make most of Samlex's, Go Power's and several other brands' inverters, and are well-regarded among the affordable inverters).   On paper AIMS look good, but their poor internal quality will result in much gnashing of teeth and renting of garments when it inevitably lets out the magic smoke.   Victron is another brand of well-regarded inverter, made in Europe.

John

Quote from: bevans6 on February 19, 2015, 06:42:10 AM
Tikvah, I had one of those (or a clone, they sell through a number of different brands) and it burnt out it's output section when my air conditioner started once.  Totally ruined, could not be repaired, was a couple of weeks out of warranty and the factory said we'll give you 10% off on a new one.  Mind you, they gave everyone 10% off on a new one.

I personally wouldn't touch one with a ten foot pole, but that's just me and my experience.  It's also why it took me close to a year to finally commit to a new Magnum.  I was scared silly I was wasting another very large chunk of change.

Brian

    I was wondering about that.  When everyone with a good reputation offers a 2500W unit for $2300 and somebody else offers a 4000W unit for under $1000 (less 10% of course), you gotta wonder what's "too good to be true" here.

QuoteTikvah, I had one of those (or a clone, they sell through a number of different brands) and it burnt out it's output section when my air conditioner started once.  Totally ruined, could not be repaired, was a couple of weeks out of warranty and the factory said we'll give you 10% off on a new one.  Mind you, they gave everyone 10% off on a new one.

I personally wouldn't touch one with a ten foot pole, but that's just me and my experience.  It's also why it took me close to a year to finally commit to a new Magnum.  I was scared silly I was wasting another very large chunk of change.

Brian

Well, I'm glad to hear the warnings about this unit.  However, a little disappointed.  I've had my eye on this for over a year, hoping to have enough free coins to buy it.  But, doubling my money for a better unit makes the purchase almost out of reach.  I don't need fancy, but I'm tired of my Modified Wave unit.  Just too many things in my coach that don't like it.  So, I keep scouring the internet for a pure sine wave that is affordable. 
I don't need all the fancy stuff you guys talk about above... I don't even understand most of it.  I have a finger - I can start my own generator  :)
I guess it's back to the drawing board for me. 

Dave

My unit was actually a Samlex.  Cotek, Go-power, Aims, etc all seem to be made by the same company.  They are engineered in Vancouver, I spoke to them several times both before I bought and sadly after mine failed.  At first I was happy to be dealing with a "Canadian" company, then not so much.

The failure mode that mine suffered was a little odd, to be honest..  I used an automatic transfer switch to switch between inverter and external power.  I had the inverter turned on, the 15Kbtw AC was on, and the external power failed (blew a breaker).  When the ATS switched the load to the inverter, the AC had that blip of loss of power and the compressor must have surged the load current.  Anyway, all the output MosFet's blew in a cascade on one side of the unit (it's really two 2Kwatt units in parallel internally), and the input fuses all blew as well.  The design has no over-current protection on the output at all.  I called the head office in Vancouver, they said they do not repair units, just exchange them for new if still under warranty.  If it's out of warranty, tough luck.

Brian

QuoteMy unit was actually a Samlex.  Cotek, Go-power, Aims, etc all seem to be made by the same company.  They are engineered in Vancouver, I spoke to them several times both before I bought and sadly after mine failed.  At first I was happy to be dealing with a "Canadian" company, then not so much.

The failure mode that mine suffered was a little odd, to be honest..  I used an automatic transfer switch to switch between inverter and external power.  I had the inverter turned on, the 15Kbtw AC was on, and the external power failed (blew a breaker).  When the ATS switched the load to the inverter, the AC had that blip of loss of power and the compressor must have surged the load current.  Anyway, all the output MosFet's blew in a cascade on one side of the unit (it's really two 2Kwatt units in parallel internally), and the input fuses all blew as well.  The design has no over-current protection on the output at all.  I called the head office in Vancouver, they said they do not repair units, just exchange them for new if still under warranty.  If it's out of warranty, tough luck.

Oddly, that sounds a bit encouraging.  At least the problem was caused by something a bit unusual.  I switch power manually (unplug one supply, and plug in another) and I always power down large loads first.  So the problem you describe wouldn't happen. 
Maybe I'll roll the dice yet  :)

Quote from: digesterman on February 19, 2015, 10:18:02 AMAccording to Outback they have the systems that do indeed have the load sharing features.
Pure sine wave only way to go, have used both for many many years and PS is so far superior and the cost has came down so much it would really be foolish not to go that route. To each his own tho  

    Yes, I will not waste my money on anything that does not have full features, good capacity (and the "Mobile" Outback has only 2500W for the 24V inverter and a "vented" model that has 3500W but they don't state if the vented one has "power pass through"), good controls, and a good warranty with support and a good name -- AND pure sine wave.   It would sure be good to keep my "Mate" controller for an Outback 24V model though.  And I like Outback's control system.
    It looks like it's easy to compare Outback and Magnum but throw in outliers like Cotek and Victron and it becomes hard to make heads or tails of what's available.  Nothing is easy, is it?

You know what, for under $1K I would probably take the risk too.  When I bought my Magnum, a large part of the decision was the charger capability.  they hadn't added charging to the Samlex etc at that time.

Brian

Ok sorry Bruce
was away working and hadn't read this yet. As RJ said I have the MSH-M series 4024 Hybrid Inverter charger with the 120 Amp charger. I also bought the ME-BMK battery monitor comes with twisted pair wire plus Negative 300amp Shunt and I had the 400Amp Breaker already for the Positive. And the ME-ARC digital remote comes with connecting telephone wire 30 feet. The remote monitors the batteries through the BMK and the whole system through the inverter charger with readouts on everything. Easy to use.
If I was on a pole that was only a 30Amp hookup and had the A/C on and turned on the other rear A/C the inverter picks up the rest of the power or coffe pot etc up to the 4000W figure and above if it needs a quick shot of energy to 5600Watts Peak. I didn't buy the auto gen start but can add it at any time.
Like Jon I believe in self starting etc. The charger works so fast that i have set the charger to start if and only if it can read incoming of at least 15 amps up to 100 Amps. I also can set the battery cut in and cut out low and high. so if it goes below a certain charged state the inverter will shut down unless there is 15 amps or more and then it will kick in and charge them up. You can also set up a percentage to start charging like Mine is at 30 % down it charges it back up. It really is the ultimate in inverters.
Most like Magnum, Outback, Trace, Xantrex are all owned by the same company now. Magnum has 2 repair facilities but the main one is in Oregon. They also repair Freedoms which is now Xantrex.

HTH Dave

Brian - I have dual Magnums, not a "true" 240, but then neither were my Vanners, they still work the same - FWIW

Quote from: Dave5Cs on February 19, 2015, 07:51:16 PM
Ok sorry Bruce
was away working and hadn't read this yet. As RJ said I have the MSH-M series 4024 Hybrid Inverter charger with the 120 Amp charger. I also bought the ME-BMK battery monitor comes with twisted pair wire plus Negative 300amp Shunt and I had the 400Amp Breaker already for the Positive. And the ME-ARC digital remote comes with connecting telephone wire 30 feet. The remote monitors the batteries through the BMK and the whole system through the inverter charger with readouts on everything. Easy to use.
If I was on a pole that was only a 30Amp hookup and had the A/C on and turned on the other rear A/C the inverter picks up the rest of the power or coffe pot etc up to the 4000W figure and above if it needs a quick shot of energy to 5600Watts Peak. I didn't buy the auto gen start but can add it at any time.
Like Jon I believe in self starting etc. The charger works so fast that i have set the charger to start if and only if it can read incoming of at least 15 amps up to 100 Amps. I also can set the battery cut in and cut out low and high. so if it goes below a certain charged state the inverter will shut down unless there is 15 amps or more and then it will kick in and charge them up. You can also set up a percentage to start charging like Mine is at 30 % down it charges it back up. It really is the ultimate in inverters.
Most like Magnum, Outback, Trace, Xantrex are all owned by the same company now. Magnum has 2 repair facilities but the main one is in Oregon. They also repair Freedoms which is now Xantrex.

HTH Dave

      Thanks, Dave.  Appreciate the helpful answer.

I have the MSH-M 4024 Hybrid exactly Like Dave, and it works great. The hybrid functionality has already saved my bacon a couple of times where only a 15 amp circuit was available. I think I paid $1700 for mine, so it's one of the most expensive components of the coach, but it's also the heart of my electrical system so I bit the bullet. I can create shortcuts for things as good as the next guy, but for this application there aren't really any shortcuts. If you're nervous about laying down that much cash, I was too. Mine has been installed for almost a year now, and I have to say it's been worth every penny.

I think the heart of a decision regarding the electrical system is centered around convenience. We don't need inverters. Any coach can be designed with minimal 120VAC devices, and have most of the coach electrical system DC power. The coach can be set up for shore or generator power, and can use converters to supply DC power or to charge the batteries.

But if the coach is set up with inverters and a good transfer switch it can be almost 100% automatic, not because it makes our life easier, but because our wives never have to try to figure out what they have to do to get power to a hair dryer, or to watch TV. With an inverter and transfer switch everything is automatic, including generator start to recharge house batteries.

I had the first set up in my first coach and my wife never did understand why she couldn't light the table lamp unless we were on shore power or the generator was running. She eventually learned the big black knob that selected the power source had to be turned to shore or generator power to get AC electric to make certain things work.

The last two coaches were inverter equipped and she does not have to know or understand anything. All she has to do is plug something into an outlet, or turn something on, just like at home. For her the coach enjoyability is at a very high level because it is not like "camping".

Amen to that

Yep as Debo said it was not cheap but well worth it. I have 4 6v deep cycle batteries US 232 AH at 20 Rate. I want to add 4 more being the others are pretty new and the price right now is only 110.00 EA.
The 4024 cost me 1,767.00 Thehousewaresstore.com (free shipping)
ME- BMK was           173.43 with shipping, Arizona wind and power
ME-ARC 50               224.30 with shipping
2 inline fuses with holders 1, 15AMP for battery monitor on positive side
the other from my Vanner to 12 volt positive 20 AMP.  21.00
1 Battery shut off switch,  34.00 West Marine.
Various Cables 50.00 Had a lot of them.

So is not cheap but works well. HTH
Dave5Cs

I had a Trace sw 4024 for 8 years when it quit on me last year, I took it to shop to have a look they said they couldn't  fix it. They had a lot of trouble  dealing with Trace , they no longer carry them and now carry Magnum better to deal with. So I bought a Magnum MS4024 4000 Watt 24 Volt Pure Sine Wave Inverter , works great.I will try to get the Trace repaired when I get near one of their repair depots.

Gary

Quote from: Jon on February 20, 2015, 03:25:30 AM
I think the heart of a decision regarding the electrical system is centered around convenience. We don't need inverters. Any coach can be designed with minimal 120VAC devices, and have most of the coach electrical system DC power. The coach can be set up for shore or generator power, and can use converters to supply DC power or to charge the batteries.

But if the coach is set up with inverters and a good transfer switch it can be almost 100% automatic, not because it makes our life easier, but because our wives never have to try to figure out what they have to do to get power to a hair dryer, or to watch TV. With an inverter and transfer switch everything is automatic, including generator start to recharge house batteries.  ... 

    Yeah, it is convenient but there's the thing about reliability, too.  If the power goes off for a day, I come back and the fridge is running, the clocks still read correctly, all my setups are still stored and running OK, etc.  "Automatic" is good but "automatically turning back on" is also good. 

We keep the coach plugged in. That means shore power is providing power to the inverter for battery float voltage, it keeps the refrigerator running, etc.

If power goes off, the inverter is no longer a charger, but is drawing power from the batteries to keep the refrigerator working. If the battery voltage is low the inverter can start the generator which will run until the batteries are satisfied. That cycle can go on for as long as you have fuel, or until shore power is resumed. The transfer switch upon seeing the restoration of shore power feeds power to the inverter which automatically stops converting and begins charging.

Obviously auto start is not such a good thing inside a closed building so if auto start is not set, the inverter keeps the refrigerator going until some low voltage setting is reached at which time it all shuts down. But during the time it was working it kept the food in the refrigerator protected.

I just purchased the Magnum 4024 from this site and will be putting together a setup similar to Brian's.  $1656  http://beyondoilsolar.com/product/magnum-energy-ms4024-sine-wave-invertercharger/ (http://beyondoilsolar.com/product/magnum-energy-ms4024-sine-wave-invertercharger/) 

It's not pure sine wave ???

Quote from: Tikvah on February 21, 2015, 12:16:55 PM
It's not pure sine wave ???

Manual says it is.  It should be

I don't see the words "Pure Sine Wave" anywhere.  I don't mean to argue, but I need one too and I'll never buy a Modified again. 

Your ad says "Magnum Energy MS4024 Sine Wave Inverter/Charger"

What is "Sine Wave".... pure or modified...or something else?

Quote from: Tikvah on February 21, 2015, 02:17:14 PM
I don't see the words "Pure Sine Wave" anywhere.  I don't mean to argue, but I need one too and I'll never buy a Modified again.  

Your ad says "Magnum Energy MS4024 Sine Wave Inverter/Charger"

What is "Sine Wave".... pure or modified...or something else?

Congratulations on your purchase of the MS Series inverter/charger from Magnum Energy. The
MS Series is a "pure" sine wave inverter designed especially for rugged mobile applications, home
backup power and stand-alone applications. Powerful, yet simple to use, this inverter/charger
will provide you with years of trouble-free performance you have come to expect from Magnum
Energy.
Installation is easy. Simply connect the inverter's output to your distribution circuits or electrical
panel; connect your utility or AC generator power to the inverter's easy-to-reach terminal block;
connect the batteries, and then switch it on for power.
With the optional accessories listed below you can control and monitor many other Magnum
Devices.
The MS Series Inverter/Charger includes the following:
2000, 2800, or 4000 Watt Models in a small footprint - less weight and area needed for
installation
Pure Sine Wave Output
Automatic PFC (Power Factor Corrected) multi-stage battery charging
RS485 standard communication protocol
Remote and Network ports (easy connection for optional accessories)
ON/OFF Inverter-mounted switch with LED indicator
60 Amp AC Transfer available (using Dual IN/Dual OUT wiring)
Large AC access and terminal block [wire size: 14 to 6 AWG (2.1 to 13.3 mm2) CU]
DC terminal covers with 360 degree connection
Field Serviceable for qualified personnel - tested repair kits available
Smooth, aesthetically pleasing design
ETL listed to UL/cUL STDs 458, 1741 and CSA STD 22.2 107.01-01 for safety.
Automatic battery temperature compensation (using battery temperature sensor) - for
optimum charging even during extreme temperature changes
Over-current, over-temperature, and high/low battery voltage protection

http://magnumenergy.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/64-0007-Rev-A-MS-Series.pdf (http://magnumenergy.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/64-0007-Rev-A-MS-Series.pdf)

Well, I stand corrected.  They could have mentioned it in their advertisement.  you would think it would be important. 
Some folks, like myself, lack the necessary gray matter to magically know that "Sine Wave" implies "Pure".

I have passed over this description in favor of a brand that says "Pure"

Thanks for the clarification... now I start down the road of decision once again.  I still lean toward my $899 unit - It says "Pure" on the label.

Quote from: Tikvah on February 21, 2015, 02:45:54 PM
Well, I stand corrected.  They could have mentioned it in their advertisement.  you would think it would be important.  
Some folks, like myself, lack the necessary gray matter to magically know that "Sine Wave" implies "Pure".

I have passed over this description in favor of a brand that says "Pure"

Thanks for the clarification... now I start down the road of decision once again.  I still lean toward my $899 unit - It says "Pure" on the label.

You will be disappointed with it's charge rate and flexibility and it's short comings. Your battery life/costs will equal the initial costs of the Magnum MS series. Kind of a pay me now/later scenario. PROVIDED you pay less than suggested retail.....

Having said that I do not "need" a pure sine wave.... at least not yet.

Well I'll trade my Modified for a Pure any day.  I'm not really complaining, I didn't pay much for it.  But I can't run my mini-split.  I can't run my computer.  My phone chargers run hot.  I can't make coffee.  I'm afraid to turn on other sensitive equipment, like my wife's keyboard.  So, that rules out almost everything that matters. 

I can keep the refrigerator running while we drive... I guess that makes me happy.

Give me a Pure Sine Wave so I can use my other stuff too.

Quote from: Tikvah on February 21, 2015, 03:02:26 PM
Well I'll trade my Modified for a Pure any day.  I'm not really complaining, I didn't pay much for it.  But I can't run my mini-split.  I can't run my computer.  My phone chargers run hot.  I can't make coffee.  I'm afraid to turn on other sensitive equipment, like my wife's keyboard.  So, that rules out almost everything that matters. 

I can keep the refrigerator running while we drive... I guess that makes me happy.

Give me a Pure Sine Wave so I can use my other stuff too.

Well.. heres what I would do.... specially if my modified SW had a good charger.... I'd set up a small bank of batteries and insert my "needs pure SW and rum those outlets thru a third AC panel (isolated from the rest) and figure a setup to charge it. Refrigeration is probably  a major concern. The A/C is going to need a big source of charge/storage. Good Luck with that.

Dave the Magnum white colored ones are Pure Sine Wave and the Hybrid have it right below the Magnum logo in Green letters and the Black ones are Modified. Modified are pretty much being outdated for major converters and the Pure Sine Waves are starting to go to the Hybrids like mine.

I was in the Bus today and it was pretty cold out there in 45 degree weather in cali this morning. So I did a little test. I was out there for about 2 hours on the computer having coffee which I made in the bus with a Mr Coffee at 1200 Watts as I had a 1500 Watt electric heater blowing, with 12, 40 watt lights on. When the coffee was done I heated up some water for my wife's tea in the micro wave. I have the Bus plugged into a 15 Amp plug at the house but the Inverter kicked in and supplied the rest. The charger kicked in when the batteries got down 30% and used the 15amp to charge the batteries back up within 20 minutes and everything still going when needed. I even plugged in a 13 amp skill saw outside to the outside plug on the bus with all the lights on and the heater going with the computer and TV on. It handled all of it with no problems.
The Hybrid share feather are awesome.

Dave5Cs

QuoteI was in the Bus today and it was pretty cold out there in 45 degree weather in cali this morning. So I did a little test. I was out there for about 2 hours on the computer having coffee which I made in the bus with a Mr Coffee at 1200 Watts as I had a 1500 Watt electric heater blowing, with 12, 40 watt lights on. When the coffee was done I heated up some water for my wife's tea in the micro wave. I have the Bus plugged into a 15 Amp plug at the house but the Inverter kicked in and supplied the rest. The charger kicked in when the batteries got down 30% and used the 15amp to charge the batteries back up within 20 minutes and everything still going when needed. I even plugged in a 13 amp skill saw outside to the outside plug on the bus with all the lights on and the heater going with the computer and TV on. It handled all of it with no problems.
The Hybrid share feather are awesome.

Okay Dave - that's pretty cool.  Didn't know that was possible.  So, let me get this straight.  It is merging both the power from the house (15a) and the power from the batteries to provide whatever is necessary?  In other words, it's not really switching from pole power to inverter power, but it's combining them together?  If that's true, that's awesome!  I can't tell you how many times we've been connected to 15a power and had to carefully dance between coffee, water heater, heat/ac, etc.  We would choose one at a time.  Obviously our inverter/battery pack won't run any of those because it's Modified.  But, I just assumed we would buy a Pure wave converter, but still do the dance when plugged into 15a.

Tell me if I'm understanding this all right? ?  ?
I got a hint of that in the previous posts... but so much of that stuff goes over my head... I'm really just a fourth grader.  :)
Thanks for dumbing it down for me.

Dave

Hey Tikvah. Yes, you have it correct. The Magnum hybrid inverters like Dave, myself, Brian, and others have has a "load sharing" feature. There are other inverters that have this feature too. I have mine set to draw no more than 15 amps from an extension cord that runs from my house. I'm able to turn on electric heat, a microwave - anything I want, for as long as the batteries can provide the extra juice needed. The moment I use less than 15 amps, the charger kicks in and starts to replenish the batteries. I'm able to run two 15K roof air conditioners from a 15 amp circuit using load sharing pretty much indefinitely. When the compressor(s) kick out, the batteries start charging again. It's the s%&t.

This feature was one important reason why I chose the inverter I did. I wanted to be able to pull into a friends driveway, have them run a 15 amp extension cord to me, and be good to go. I'm glad I bit the bullet and spent the money, although it's a pretty good chunk of change. I've been less smart about my generator. I've bought two now trying to do it on the cheap, when I should have just spent the money to begin with. I'd have come out ahead.

Quote from: Dave5Cs on February 21, 2015, 08:43:10 PM... It handled all of it with no problems.
The Hybrid share feather are awesome.
Dave5Cs

    That's what I wanted to hear!  Thanks,  BH

http://beyondoilsolar.com/product/magnum-energy-ms4024-sine-wave-invertercharger/ (http://beyondoilsolar.com/product/magnum-energy-ms4024-sine-wave-invertercharger/)

Is this one set up that way?

No, that one is not load sharing.  the Magnum MSH4024M is the load sharing one.  The "H" stands for "hybrid".

http://www.donrowe.com/Magnum-Energy-MSH4024M-p/msh4024m.htm (http://www.donrowe.com/Magnum-Energy-MSH4024M-p/msh4024m.htm)

Note one thing - authorized Magnum dealers are not allowed to advertise a price lower than the authorized list price.  They are allowed to sell at lower than list price.  You have to call and ask what the deal of the day is.  If you buy from an unauthorized dealer, the factory warranty is void.  Magnum are quite pissy about that.

Brian

There are times when we all resist technology, and in some cases go out of our way to avoid it. But with the exception of some off the wall entertainment system ideas I have seen on new or newer coaches technology such as offered in inverters makes life so easy, plus is light years better on reliability is hard to ignore.

thanks for posting that site Brian

did you have any problems or extra cost buying it ? and shipped to Canada ?

I have a prosine 2000 inverter now and it has worked great for years ....but when it craps out I think the msh4024m is the next one for me as I like the power sharing .

thanks   dave

I bought my inverter (mine is a MS4024, not the hybrid) from Magnum's official dealer in Canada.  Matched the then-current US price within a few bucks, and free shipping and no duty, so I got a great deal.  Still have to pay the sales tax, though.

Brian

Note: You need to buy the remote control to access most features with the least resistance ..  ;D

Quote from: Tikvah on February 22, 2015, 05:01:38 AM
http://beyondoilsolar.com/product/magnum-energy-ms4024-sine-wave-invertercharger/ (http://beyondoilsolar.com/product/magnum-energy-ms4024-sine-wave-invertercharger/)

Is this one set up that way? 

     Dave, that one is not set up as "load sharing", plus it doesn't have "hard connections" (it looks like there are plug-in sockets for the 120V loads wires.  I also don't see provision for a remote to set up custom float, bulk, and max charge settings, input restrictions, etc and to give battery readings and system status readings.   Maybe I've missed something  but this doesn't look like something that would give us what we want and need in a bus inverter system.

Someone along the way asked if the Magnum inverters have auto start and I don't see that anybody answered the question.  They do not have auto start built-in.  They have a module that is an add-on to the inverter that does the auto start.  Magnum actually makes two auto start modules.  One communicates with their inverters and the other is stand alone.  I have the stand alone model as I have a Prosine 3.0 inverter.

I got the auto start after having my inverter start beeping in the middle of the night because the batteries had gone low even though they had been charged that evening.  The auto start was cheaper than new batteries.  I do have to get new batteries this year because they don't really hold a charge at all anymore.  I am going with a smaller battery bank and just use the generator more.  I still have to buy diesel to charge the batteries regardless.

Well, that's a nice inverter, and nice add-ons.  But
$2395.20  for the inverter
$ 239.20  for the remote
$ 263.20  generator start
$ 175.20  battery monitor

That adds up to about $$3072.80

I can just buy this:  http://www.theinverterstore.com/4000-watt-pure-sine-inverter-charger-24-volt.html (http://www.theinverterstore.com/4000-watt-pure-sine-inverter-charger-24-volt.html)
for just $900 and switch manually like I do now.  Then I can run my coffee pot, heater, phone chargers, computer, piano, etc.

If it goes bad, I can afford three more for the price of the other one.   I like quality stuff, and I like features. . . but in my opinion that's out of line.

Dave

The price of technology adds up fast. Something else you might want to consider is looking for one of the old Heart or Trace Freedom models.  They are close enough to pure sine wave as makes no difference and built like brick shithouses. I haven't looked lately but I think you could find one for under $500 if you were patient.

Quote from: Tikvah on February 22, 2015, 11:29:58 AM
Well, that's a nice inverter, and nice add-ons.  But
$2395.20  for the inverter
$ 239.20  for the remote
$ 263.20  generator start
$ 175.20  battery monitor

That adds up to about $$3072.80

If it goes bad, I can afford three more for the price of the other one.   I like quality stuff, and I like features. . . but in my opinion that's out of line.

Dave

The unit you have there is a full function, built in 50 amp charger, built in auto transfer switch 4000 watt pure sine inverter.  Odd that the ATS is only rated to 30 amps, but there you go.  It is designed to be hard-wired to a distribution panel with breakers, etc.  Does pass-through of the line input to the distribution panel when it's in charger mode.  It doesn't have a battery monitor or a generator start function, but it has a remote available at extra cost.   I'll be completely honest, when I bought my Magnum I had a job and I had lots of money.  Now, I don't have a job and I would probably buy that unit, or do without. 

Brian

Here is the Heart I have now.  2000watt.  It runs the fridge on the road, and I have enough battery power to run about 24 hours without any charge. 
I can run a saw or drill. 
But, the Modified simply won't make coffee, or any of the other important, life sustaining necessities.

Dave

Quote from: Tikvah on February 22, 2015, 11:29:58 AM
Well, that's a nice inverter, and nice add-ons.  But
$2395.20  for the inverter
$ 239.20  for the remote
$ 263.20  generator start
$ 175.20  battery monitor

That adds up to about $$3072.80

I can just buy this:  http://www.theinverterstore.com/4000-watt-pure-sine-inverter-charger-24-volt.html (http://www.theinverterstore.com/4000-watt-pure-sine-inverter-charger-24-volt.html)
for just $900 and switch manually like I do now.  Then I can run my coffee pot, heater, phone chargers, computer, piano, etc.

If it goes bad, I can afford three more for the price of the other one.   I like quality stuff, and I like features. . . but in my opinion that's out of line.

Dave

Dave,

Please don't rush into buying an AIMS anything  -  they really may cause you more grief than they're worth.   I know you can get three of them for the price of one Magnum, but because everything's integrated into one unit, if (when) one part of it goes Phut then the whole shebang is kaput.   I know you don't want to spend thousands, nor would I, but AIMS is not the way to go for serious dependability.   Maybe they're OK for occasional non-critical use, but I wouldn't trust them otherwise.

Caveat Emptor.

John

Dave here is another place that will save you some more. The nice thing about the remote and the Battery sensor is that when I need to know anything about whats going on with the Inverter or Batteries I just turn or push the button and there it is. All I have to do is check batteries for water each month. So far because it all together they haven't needed anything for 2 months so far. It keeps batteries at 27.8 all the time. If it gets below 30% down then the 110Amp charger kicks in and charges them back up. My electric bill at the ranch has dropped also because i am not always running a charger on them. It only comes on when needed.
I didn't put on the auto gen starter but may down the road. The hybrids have just come out in the last year and as always are high until someone else copies their feathers and put them on the market. You can tell the difference between a good inverter charger and a cheap one by the weight. And that is the Transformer coil inside the inverter. Good one are heavy and the light one are cheap and generally have plugs in the ends which mean you cannot hard wire them. The one you are looking at is a hardwired one but there will be a lot of things you will need also to hook it up and remotes to read batteries or you will be out checking them with a multimeter and filling them with water after they boil one because you didn't have time to check it etc.

Like the others not trying to sell it to you and have no connection to Magnum, outback or the rest of the good ones that have been in the business for a long time but you might wait to buy if thats possible and see if the price comes down or one of the others comes up with the sharing feathers like this one.

Like Bob OTN said Freedom 2000 to 3000 were the top of the line but they are still modified and won't run a lot of new things correctly but you might save some money on a used one with more watts than you have now.

Dave5Cs


http://invertersupply.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=2654&cPath=0_477&gclid=CJHjtYXF9sMCFQWUfgodI1kAcg (http://invertersupply.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=2654&cPath=0_477&gclid=CJHjtYXF9sMCFQWUfgodI1kAcg)

I may not be the resident guru on any subject but.... this I do know... not all square/modified sine waves are created equal, they are just not called/advertised as pure because they are not.... I have had zero problems with the older TRACE SW models I've made coffee run printers and computers and flt screen tv's with the elder TRACE models and I have had two of them. they are often available in the $300-$400 range. Are completely rebuild-able, and always resale able. I would hunt one down and try it. 

What I would not do is pay $800. for one with a bad history of failures.

good luck ... (sincerely)  :)

I have the old Trace 4024.

One thing I did not see mention is that it also auto synchronizes with the AC and/or generator when you hook to park power( don't have to run around and turn everything off).  It will check it first and not transfer if park power is and issue(safetey and pays for it self).

The trace also has a mode that I've used sometimes where it doesn't run until a load is needed.  I can turn that on and let it just run the fridge when it clicks on for a few days without any hook up.  A solar panel would greatly extend that.

The idea is that it draws power if it is just on.  but only need to be on when needed.  small loads like LED's and clocks mess with it and will quickly run down the batteries.

I would vote the old trace if you want a budget priced one.
-Or a bunch of smaller point of use inverters.


Also- if I was building a bus now-a-days, I would go Primarily DC and rare AC loads.  But that's just me. ::)

Most now have that. The magnum senses any incoming power and if needed to kick it higher it will even join in to boost power or cut itself out when not needed. If you don't want it to come on at all just turn it off or you can set it to come on at a certain time and off at a certain time if needed. You can do the charger the same way or both and let the inverter monitor the whole system.
It has a fault light also if on you just turn the knob to Tech and checkout what it was that put it in fault mode which is generally just a low battery which would inform you that a battery might have a bad cell. You can erase the fault code after the problem is fixed.

it is my understanding that with any inverter, as the battery bank begins to lose capacity, ie voltage, the quality of the wave deforms. this would seem to indicate that at a certain point a pure sine wave unit is no longer making a complete clean 60 hz cycle. if a modified (high quality unit) produces 58hz at optimum(which good ones do) it is not that far off of a pure sw. once the batts diminish the wave quality does too.

one can learn a bunch here

http://www.gumpydog.com/Bus/MC9_WIP/Electrical/Inverter/SW4024.pdf (http://www.gumpydog.com/Bus/MC9_WIP/Electrical/Inverter/SW4024.pdf)

The one you referred to is not the Hybrid. Any battery will diminish after time not the inverter, other than the wave because of the batteries dieng eventually. That would be around 5 to 7 years and that is normal. Batteries still have to be checked even if they are sealed have to take a reading on them every so often and do a load test just to be sure they are holding a charge. The remote will give you this information depending on which unit you have.
Check out Chris and Cheri's, http://www.technomadia.com/lithium/ (http://www.technomadia.com/lithium/)
website about their tests with the Lithium batteries. Even those diminish with time and they can be brought down to "0" and then charge them back up again whereas lead Acid Batteries you only bring down to 80 % (use 20%) before they should be recharged to keep optimum usability. Some say 50% but that will only give them shorter life.
So all batteries have a usable life and only so many recharges and then that's it. They can be rebuilt but some get really abused and not maintained so even that is not worth the time to do.
So if your batteries are taken care of  by any inverter/ charger ( preferably a 3 stage smart charger) then when they won't keep a good charge its time replace the batteries. Pure Sine Wave or Modified. HTH

"1)  In your opinion, what's the best inverter like this made and available in the market, price no object?"

my vote would be for Exeltech.  I think if you take them a bus load of money, they will custom build anything you want.

I think, at least for short term solution, the idea of a couple small inverters might be a nice idea.  Charging can be done with a nice 24V smart charger when on pole or generator power.  The Modified Wave unit can continue to provide power to the fridge and a few misc items.  Then I could have a small Pure Wave unit for my computer, and another small pure wave unit for my AC (remember my AC pulls much less than most of you). 
My gray matter is churning a bit.....

The way your inverter works is directly related to the way you have the wiring setup. Before load sharing (I have a MSW 2512 Trace inverter), you had to manage loads. I have two circuit breaker boxes. One for non inverter items (3-roof top A/C's, one water heater, freezer, refer, generator blower, generator radiator fan) and one for inverter driven items (all plugs, microwave, toaster oven, bathroom wall heater, one water heater). When plugged into a 15amp plug, I can turn off the feed to the inverter and run all inverter loads on batteries. Then when were done with breakfast and using the hair dryer, turn on the feed to the inverter to recharge the batteries. Usually, though, I just kick on the generator to power all loads.
My system has been 100% reliable-the only thing-you have to do the switching manually. I do have a main box that I can turn on and off the land line-no unplugging, etc.
Now with load sharing, the same thing can be accomplished without having to do any switching. The Magnum 4000 with load sharing would be my choice for a 24v inverter. I will be using the Magnum 2800 with load sharing on my truck since everything is 12v. Good Luck, TomC

Or spend the money for a DC fridge  :)( Google it).  And/or DC HVAC etc. or other large loads.  Then you don't have to as much about an inverter.  Then just plug a good charger in the powerpole when you need it.




You can even work it out so that your computer is fed DC if you wanted.


There is certain efficiency losses in the DC/AC conversion.




The old Trace also has Grid Tie capability if you want to sell power back to the power company.


Do it your way safely  :)

Magnum would be my choice all true sine inverters have a constant draw some more than others,if you are plugged or driving it's not a big deal.
Every tech I speak with at Magnum seems to be a old Trace employee they should know their stuff on load sharing IMO.The old Traces were more true sine than most of the China made so called pure or true sine sold today.

I never had anything that my 2012 stacked Traces would not run after 20 years Matt told me 1 gave up so he just took one of the stacked out of the loop and still has 2000w of inverter

As usual I have made my point clear as mud, corrrect me again, IF your batteries are at 14.2 or 13.8 the PS Wave or MS Wave will make it's cleanest wave (HZ), PS making 60 hz.
NOW when the batteries are no longer at 13.8 and become say..11.8 or 12.2...what quality of wave is your output ? It is not 60 hz ... or is it ?
Trace says it is not ... if i read it correctly.
your battery state of charge SOC, depletes on a daily basis in a coach with say a 4 8d bank..... now a 12 8d bank may not, but who has that.

I am all in favor of the point of use PS wave inverters.  just may not be practical for 1500 watt loads...

PS I read the Lithium test as a fail. as in lithium $$'s for watts are not the best way to spend your money.

Quote from: Dave5Cs on February 23, 2015, 06:33:20 AM
The one you referred to is not the Hybrid. Any battery will diminish after time not the inverter, other than the wave because of the batteries dieng eventually. That would be around 5 to 7 years and that is normal. Batteries still have to be checked even if they are sealed have to take a reading on them every so often and do a load test just to be sure they are holding a charge. The remote will give you this information depending on which unit you have.
Check out Chris and Cheri's, http://www.technomadia.com/lithium/ (http://www.technomadia.com/lithium/)
website about their tests with the Lithium batteries. Even those diminish with time and they can be brought down to "0" and then charge them back up again whereas lead Acid Batteries you only bring down to 80 % (use 20%) before they should be recharged to keep optimum usability. Some say 50% but that will only give them shorter life.
So all batteries have a usable life and only so many recharges and then that's it. They can be rebuilt but some get really abused and not maintained so even that is not worth the time to do.
So if your batteries are taken care of  by any inverter/ charger ( preferably a 3 stage smart charger) then when they won't keep a good charge its time replace the batteries. Pure Sine Wave or Modified. HTH

Long story with short version in the inverter market you get what you pay for

Quote from: luvrbus on February 23, 2015, 08:03:11 AM
Long story with short version in the inverter market you get what you pay for

i get that...  ;D

The thread that won't die...   ;D

I found this, posted by an ex-design engineer at Trace.;

"There are actually 3 inverters in series for the SW4048. Big, medium and small. The large one has
a waveform like a modified square wave inverter. The medium and small ones have higher frequency
waveforms to make up a close-to sine wave stepped waveform."

That tells me that this decades old design is radically different than the current micro-processor controlled high frequency pure sine wave inverters.  They use pulse width modulation of MosFET output stages to create the output wave form.  That technique will result in very tight control of both wave form and frequency.  It does distort a little at high power, mostly at the top of the wave form where the pulse width is quite wide, relatively speaking.

Brian

it tells me that
a. it's affordable, and
b. adequately capable for most uses...  ;)

Quote from: bevans6 on February 23, 2015, 08:19:49 AM
The thread that won't die...   ;D

I found this, posted by an ex-design engineer at Trace.;

"There are actually 3 inverters in series for the SW4048. Big, medium and small. The large one has
a waveform like a modified square wave inverter. The medium and small ones have higher frequency
waveforms to make up a close-to sine wave stepped waveform."

That tells me that this decades old design is radically different than the current micro-processor controlled high frequency pure sine wave inverters.  They use pulse width modulation of MosFET output stages to create the output wave form.  That technique will result in very tight control of both wave form and frequency.  It does distort a little at high power, mostly at the top of the wave form where the pulse width is quite wide, relatively speaking.

Brian

I remember when BlueBird started this inverter craze they even had a auto start long before it was popular or heard of

Quote from: eagle19952 on February 23, 2015, 07:50:44 AM
As usual I have made my point clear as mud, corrrect me again, IF your batteries are at 14.2 or 13.8 the PS Wave or MS Wave will make it's cleanest wave (HZ), PS making 60 hz.
NOW when the batteries are no longer at 13.8 and become say..11.8 or 12.2...what quality of wave is your output ? It is not 60 hz ... or is it ?

You are confusing frequency (Hz) and waveform.  A generator will always make a "pure" waveform but the frequency can very easily be off if the governor isn't adjusted correctly or even by design - some of them are set up to be slightly high frequency at low load so that they deliver a true 60 Hz at full load. 

My understanding of how inverters work is about 10 thou deep but what I understand is that even the purest of the pure sine wave models will still show discreet steps in the waveform at high enough resolution.  IOW, if you look hard enough even a supposedly pure sine inverter waveform will to some extent still be a modified square wave - that's just a function of digital circuitry.  Some of what Bryan has been posting is causing me to question that understanding as regards current inverter technology but like I said, my inverter knowledge is paper thin.

Here throw this word into mix I found in my old Trace manual  "sinusoid curve" my old Trace's were micro chip from the 90's  

At some point we're arguing how many angels can dance on the head of a pin Clifford.  A rotating field has to make a sine output - that's the ultimate "pure" sine wave or "sinusoidal curve".  The way inverter technology was explained to me is its the electrical equivalent of slamming shut a gate valve which causes the water pressure to momentarily spike up.  If you slam enough silicon switches closed you can turn 12 volts into 120 volts and presumably do it in reverse to get a wave that reverses with respect to ground.  Like I said - my understanding is paper thin but in concept I can understand it.  The concept of gates closing also helps me understand how the resulting wave form inevitably is a series of little square jumps.  In the same way a computer image is pixelated if you enlarge it sufficiently, if you look at an inverter output at sufficient resolution you will inevitably see those little square forms.  Its just if you pay more for the inverter then you have to look a lot harder to see the squares, as I understand it anyway.  Brian's post made me think there may be some radically different technology that overcomes this limitation but like I said, my understanding is paper thin.

Dick Wright tried to explain it to me for a hour one time when I was wanting to buy new true sine at the end of the conversation he told me not to replace the old Traces I couldn't better myself with new ones only the load sharing would be a improvement   

That's how I see it.  For $2500 I could have load sharing but that's the only change it would make as far as I can tell from my 25+ year old Heart Freedoms.  So for $2500 I can manage the power myownself. 

We're sitting at 50.5 degrees of Latitude with fridge, freezer and 3 computers running.  Even with that load we're getting enough sun to more or less hold even at mid day.  Gotta love that when it happens because it doesn't happen very often on the we(s)t coast.  And a view to die for.

Quote from: eagle19952 on February 23, 2015, 07:50:44 AM
As usual I have made my point clear as mud, corrrect me again, IF your batteries are at 14.2 or 13.8 the PS Wave or MS Wave will make it's cleanest wave (HZ), PS making 60 hz.
NOW when the batteries are no longer at 13.8 and become say..11.8 or 12.2...what quality of wave is your output ? It is not 60 hz ... or is it ?
Trace says it is not ... if i read it correctly.
your battery state of charge SOC, depletes on a daily basis in a coach with say a 4 8d bank..... now a 12 8d bank may not, but who has that.

I am all in favor of the point of use PS wave inverters.  just may not be practical for 1500 watt loads...

PS I read the Lithium test as a fail. as in lithium $$'s for watts are not the best way to spend your money.

Eagle if your batteries are at 11.8 or even 12.2 they are dead and you let them get to low. 12 volt is only said because it was easier by the designer to call it that. And at that SOC and fully being Depleted there would be no HZ 60 or 57. So whats the point to keep bringing it up?

Quote from: Tikvah on February 23, 2015, 07:13:13 AM
I think, at least for short term solution, the idea of a couple small inverters might be a nice idea.  Charging can be done with a nice 24V smart charger when on pole or generator power.  The Modified Wave unit can continue to provide power to the fridge and a few misc items.  Then I could have a small Pure Wave unit for my computer, and another small pure wave unit for my AC (remember my AC pulls much less than most of you). 
My gray matter is churning a bit.....

That will be essentially my approach.   There'll be a 2,000W sinewave inverter for occasional loads such as tools/microwave/hair dryer/etc, only turned on when needed, and a smaller sinewave only for the fridger which will remain on 24/7.   With a MTBF of more than 21 years, I'll probably get a small Exeltech for the fridger.   The emergencies-only charger will probably be a Cotek CX1280  -  there's very few 80A or larger chargers with good (>0.9) Power Factors.   Iotas and other similar ones with only 0.66 PF and huge inrush surges are out of the question for me.   Having two inverters also gives me redundancy  -  I like having backups wherever possible (I have two banks of PV panels, two charge controllers, two banks of house batteries, two Schottky isolators  -  always have a plan B!).

John

Quote from: Dave5Cs on February 23, 2015, 12:22:59 PM
Eagle if your batteries are at 11.8 or even 12.2 they are dead and you let them get to low. 12 volt is only said because it was easier by the designer to call it that. And at that SOC and fully being Depleted there would be no HZ 60 or 57. So whats the point to keep bringing it up?

Its not that simple.  If you put a 2000 watt load on a "normal" battery bank, even one that's right full, it will absolutely pull down to well below 12 volts - maybe 11.8 or even 11.5.  That doesn't mean the batteries are "dead" - it just means you're putting them to work the way they were intended to.  You're talking about resting voltages but that's not what the inverter sees when its working.

I put a volt meter on my truck, so I could monitor the voltage of the charging system.  I about shat myself the first time I started it after - when the glow plugs are on they draw enough current (around 180 amps for around 2 minutes, normally) to pull the voltage of the batteries down to 11.2 volts.  Now, these were brand new, 900 CCA Johnson Controls batteries, two of them in parallel.  11.2 volts, and when it starts and the alternator kicks in it goes all the way up to maybe 12 volts, and jumps to 14 when the glow plugs turn off.  Bloody straight a big load pulls the voltage down, and that is indeed exactly what batteries are designed for.

Brian

Anybody who is even half serious about living on batteries needs a good battery monitor and I don't mean the POS flashing LEDs that come on the control panels.  We had a Trimetric 2025 in the bus and I put one in the boat as soon as we bought it.  Until you've actually spent some time watching what happens nobody should comment or give advice.  Not that I'm some big expert either but we do spend at least 6 months of the year living on a combination of solar, generator and big alternator power.  You pretty quickly learn how it works if you don't want to listen to the generator rumble all your waking hours.

Bob, Brian I know that, I just didn't want to get into a discussion with Donald about what Wave is best or whatnot. He is just looking to prove someone wrong. He has done it from the start of this thread and doesn't have a dog in this hunt.
I was only originally telling Dave about what inverter I had and why I like it. The final decision is Dave's to what he wants to put out and needs. This is what works for me. I am not an electrical expert or Guru of any kind. If it wasn't for Brian and Jon I probably wouldn't have ever got this thing hooked up. So have fun talking about the wonders of Pure Sine waves or Modified. I don't really care.
Hope some of this helped Dave to give you an idea what you need.

Dave5Cs

Quote from: Dave5Cs on February 23, 2015, 02:41:42 PM
Bob, Brian I know that, I just didn't want to get into a discussion with Donald about what Wave is best or whatnot. He is just looking to prove someone wrong. He has done it from the start of this thread and doesn't have a dog in this hunt.
I was only originally telling Dave about what inverter I had and why I like it. The final decision is Dave's to what he wants to put out and needs. This is what works for me. I am not an electrical expert or Guru of any kind. If it wasn't for Brian and Jon I probably wouldn't have ever got this thing hooked up. So have fun talking about the wonders of Pure Sine waves or Modified. I don't really care.
Hope some of this helped Dave to give you an idea what you need.

Dave5Cs

No he's not trying to win anything  ??? ::) ???, and I think you read something into it that only justifies your decision... If you didn't care why are you responding.
The point is also that many inverters have a set point at which it shuts it self off because it no longer sees a sufficient battery voltage to produce AC current, that safety set point is based on the remaining battery voltage, (the numbers I used are as arbitrary as your notation of "12v because it was easier by the designer to call it that" .... At some point in the discharge of the battery to the shut off point you are losing something...it must be either an AC voltage drop or cycles/sine wave form.

If my batteries are at 11.8...they aren't dead ....they need charged.
They're dead when they won't hold a charge...
As has been said by others in this thread, not every pure sine wave inverter is as good as all others and some modified sine waves are better than some pure sine waves no matter what the salesman tells you...the proof is in the pudding.

Dave...think what you want, your wrong about me my goal is to inform and learn.

PS none of this means a Magnum Hybrid is not a good choice, it simply means that the most expensive fancy optioned choice is not always the best choice when $'s in for watts out is the desire.

Don you just proved my point thank you!... :o

Quote from: Dave5Cs on February 23, 2015, 03:38:15 PM
Don you just proved my point thank you!... :o

Whatever.

Two of these will make coffee and meet a host of needs. Xantrex PROwatt SW 600, Pure Sine Wave Inverter @ $129.00

http://www.donrowe.com/Xantrex-806-1206-PROwatt-SW-600-p/806-1206.htm (http://www.donrowe.com/Xantrex-806-1206-PROwatt-SW-600-p/806-1206.htm)

The advantages of a large inverter like a Magnum MS4024 that powers most or all of the outlets in a bus is that things just work.  You don't have to remember which outlets go to which inverter, or which outlets even have inverter power.  The batteries will automatically charge when you have power.

You can go totally manual with everything and save money.  If you and everyone else who uses your bus can make it work then no problem.  It will be a little bit of a pain to get everyone to remember which outlets are live on inverter and what loads the inverter can handle at first.

Personally, I have a big sine wave inverter to make things easy, but I don't have any issue with anyone who wants to save money on this part of their bus as long as it is safe.

Truth is there is NO SUCH THING as a true Sine Wave inverter, only Simulated Sine Wave, due to a "shorter" frequency and duration of square waves, True Sine Wave only comes from the Source {read=generator} - FWIW

Quote from: niles500 on February 25, 2015, 09:08:50 PM
Truth is there is NO SUCH THING as a true Sine Wave inverter, only Simulated Sine Wave, due to a "shorter" frequency and duration of square waves, True Sine Wave only comes from the Source {read=generator} - FWIW

Agree  :)

Bruce,

I thought I might read the thread and then comment on your original question, but I confess that I lost interest on page two. I have no idea what was said after that. Actually, I'm not sure that I remember the question....

We've been living full time with a Magnum 4024 for two years. I love it, and I can't imagine needing or wanting something different. I'd read many glowing reviews, and once we decided that our house system was going to be 24v, I never seriously considered a different unit. I would do it again with no hesitation. We rarely plug in, but when we do, the battery charge function impresses me. Ours is not the hybrid version.

With that said, I confess that I've never owned another "big" inverter, so I have nothing with which to compare.

How's the repower project?

Jim

I'm not going to get into the urinating contest about what inverters have as far as sine wave, modified or pure. But I can say accurately that older technology modified sine wave, and newer technology pure sine wave are two different products. Even if we all ignore the abilities of newer inverters such as load sharing and the ability to sync up the technology of products that are now being sold is dictating the use of pure sine wave inverters.

I see no issue if someone opts for the older possibly less expensive inverters, as long as they understand some 120V appliances or devices are not going to work, or may even be damaged by the modified sine wave inverters. Some refrigerators for example will work on modified sine wave inverters, but over time it can be expected that the compressor will fail or the controls will fail. An older technology refrigerator such as one 10 or 15 years old may work well on any inverter, but newer ones may require pure sine wave inverters.

Debating the shape of the sine wave pushes the discussion away from the fact that an inverter described as a modified sine wave will not work with some of the products available today.

LOL all of it will be useless when the great EMP hits us I saw that on TV so it must be true  ;D,this conversation is a classic Bruce ask what would be the best inverter for him

I will say our Crestron systems at the restaurants require a true sine backup battery and a lot of RV's have that system,then you have people living off grid for 40 years with the MS inverters with no problems and with all the conveniences, the true sine inverter is wave of the future till the great EMP hits  ;D 

Clifford, "wave of the future" now? What is that? A new kind of inverter? Now I am more confused... LOL

JC

Often in these type threads a person will ask if something is suitable and will pretty much state honestly that they have $800 - $1000 to spend.

What good does it do to  tell them about your $2200 latest and greatest deal with all the bells and whistles...And offer no alternatives.

I'll let you know when my Trace 2012 $320.00 (bought off Craigs list) or My Xantrex Freedom Marine 3012  $760. (with pass thru) burns something up.

Not all modified square waves are created equal. neither are the so called pure ones.

Quote from: eagle19952 on February 26, 2015, 07:59:11 AMOften in these type threads a person will ask if something is suitable and will pretty much state honestly that they have $800 - $1000 to spend. ... 

    Good point, Don.  In my first post, I specifically asked for "the best" - with cost a secondary question.  I am retired and "on a fixed income" so I'll have to factor in cost, but I want this bus to be my home for as many years as I have the health to do it -- I'm not going to waste money, but I don't mind a wise investment -- by "wise" I mean something that works well now and is reliable over the years to come.  So, I don't mind that people have described expensive units.  I'm going to take their descriptions of their experiences and opinions and put them into the many-factor mix. 
    To have a unit that will take me until I'm 80, it would need to last 14 years and be suitable for the technology of 2028. I think that means that I'll need to go with "what they now call 'pure sine wave but really isn't'" for it's technical capabilities.  I got a bit stung on the Outback purchase -- I didn't do my figures right and bought too small a unit and misunderstood it's listed claim for "load-shifting" versus "load-sharing".  I really appreciate that people have described the load-sharing abilities of the equipment that they've had experience with.  That's been the help I've needed.
    I'm not sure that I'd have replaced the Outback (although the lack of true-load-sharing would have been a burr under my saddle for as long as I had it) for what I've got planned but an engine change makes a move to a 24V house system pretty much necessary.  And 24V on the house system will be better for higher loads of systems like the air conditioning system I have planned for the future.
    I have sort of assumed that buying used unit off EBay is a little risky for complex electrical equipment that's supposed to last 14 or 15 years, esp. since I have not had a lot of experience installing, diagnosing, or repairing electrical or electronic equipment. I think I'll have a good discussion with myself, but it seems that that's a pretty good assumption *for what I need* (not saying that it is the way to go for anyone else).
    I appreciate your input on this thread and the fact that you've taken the time and energy to help - a lot of what you've talked about is "going back to the basics" and that's been especially helpful.  Thanks, and Good bussin' to you!