I'm beginning to think I shouldn't be taking the Moose this weekend... I believe I got the power steering issue resolved, so I started her up to get some diesel when I saw smoke coming from the battery compartment. I opened the door and saw a small fire at a solenoid (pictured) above the lever that turns the bus power on and off. A seperate black wire from the solenoid runs into a devise that deals with the main bus batteries (black box pictured) and the red wire that was frying runs back to a junction at the house batteries (red dial pictured).
Did the house batteries (which are old and need replacing) or that black box short out the solenoid? And what the heck does that solenoid do? Is this something that shouldn't affect much and I can work on fixing it when we get back, or should I make alternate travel plans?
Thanks in advance!! Heart is now slowing down a bit, that was scary!!
Not to be picky, But that's a relay.
It looks like it melted just below the eyelet. Did it come in contact with the wall the relay is mounted to, and short to ground?
Quote from: azdieselman on February 12, 2015, 01:32:45 PM
Not to be picky, But that's a relay.
It looks like it melted just below the eyelet. Did it come in contact with the wall the relay is mounted to, and short to ground?
Good to know the correct term, thanks AZdieselman! I can't tell now if it came in contact with the wall since its been fried off, but I can say it's been installed like this for the last 7 years since I've owned it with no issues. What does this relay do? The bus ran just fine while the wire was frying.
I would consider the entire length of that red wire as now damaged, unless it can be proven otherwise, that a great current may have flowed through it.
The crimp may have simply given up due to corrosion, small contact area, poor workmanship in assembly... yes, the difference between good and bad can show years later.
The direction the connection appears to be pointing, could the wire have been. Touching the wall? Vibration introduced inside a crimp such as this isn't good.
You need to make yourself some schematics of where the wires all go, it is hard to trouble shoot someone else's "custom" install.
Happy coaching!
buswarrior
Here is another picture of the back of wire if that helps. Can anyone tell from the different pics what this relay does?
the way it is mounted is scary...
the wires are kinda small for the capability of the solenoid contactor ... imo.
was the burnt wire output or input ?
Is there a suitably-sized Class-T catastrophe fuse (Sean W recommends them on the Negative lead from the batteries), or individual load fuses on the Positive cables? That setup looks scary to me. Why is the Blue Sea 9001 switch mounted that way?
I think it's time for a complete reevaluation of the circuits there, including replacing any and all suspect cables and equipment. I'm also wondering if the cables are undersized - I would suggest going one size larger than their theoretical ampacity ratings, plus also increasing size if they're in a hot area. Lugs should be crimped "gastight", and if that's not possible they should be filled with solder AFTER they've been well crimped, provided the cables won't need to move at all. If they need to move, don't solder them!
Once everything's been redone and is up and running, check the lugs' and cables' temperatures with an IR thermometer - that will tell you if you have a bad connection under full load.
John
Quote from: JT4SC on February 12, 2015, 01:57:40 PM
Here is another picture of the back of wire if that helps. Can anyone tell from the different pics what this relay does?
Here's my wild guess. Could that be a switch for charging the batteries either from the genset or the bus alternator?
if the relay/contactor was turned 90 degrees you would eliminate a LOT of stress on the wire lugs.... too many right angles.
The screw is not holding...the washer is.
It all matters.
When you see these things it leads to other "unseen" concerns ... at least to me.
It's to jump or charge the starting batteries from the house batteries or charge the house batteries from the starting batteries depend on how they set it up would be my guess typical RV setup on the S&S
Azdieselman,
I have always called those solenoids;
http://www.delcity.net/store/Solenoid-Switches/p_741262.r_IS3011?mkwid=6pWurPvG&crid=3892708426&mp_kw=12v%20solenoid&mp_mt=b (http://www.delcity.net/store/Solenoid-Switches/p_741262.r_IS3011?mkwid=6pWurPvG&crid=3892708426&mp_kw=12v%20solenoid&mp_mt=b)
http://www.delcity.net/store/Relays-&-Power-Distribution/ (http://www.delcity.net/store/Relays-&-Power-Distribution/)
what exactly makes this one a solenoid? Just curious
Thanks for all the replies guys. I have attached a wider view picture of the battery compartment, with the relay in question near the top.
I believe this set up does have to do with charging the starter batteries, I remember when I bought the bus Mike K told me he was going to run a new wire so the batteries would get charged while we were running the bus (I assumed like an alternator). He hooked up the wire from the electrical board outside/below the drivers side window to the battery compartment. From there I didn't see what he did. Just now I opened up the electrical compartment, found the wire he hooked up, and saw its the same type of wire that connects to the very right-hand side of the relay. In the picture you can see the wire Mike installed going out from the right side of the relay into a hole in the batt compartment. That wire looks fine. The middle wire runs to the black box, and the left red wire is what fried, and it runs back to the house batteries.
Does seeing the whole battery compartment and all the wires still look poorly done or does it appear now to be a little more normal?
I never saw that small gauge of wire used in that application before even on a S&S RV
Quote from: luvrbus on February 12, 2015, 03:56:45 PM
I never saw that small gauge of wire used in that application before even on a S&S RV
What does and S&S RV mean?
Quote from: JT4SC on February 12, 2015, 04:02:09 PM
What does and S&S RV mean?
Sticks and Staples.... any RV that is not a converted coach... :o
Looks like I need to get a pro out to look at my coach and see whats going on with the electrical wiring.... Any suggestions for someone good in San Diego? Anyone want to come out for vacation, I got a great place to stay!!... ;D
i am always leery of electrical connections that are covered with heat shrink at terminations ... they can cover a multitude of sins and are not necessary...
in the middle of a wire/splice....ok.
i think the magority of your current problem is mounting, vibration fatigue, and suspect teminations, not wire size, ( would need to see/know) more.
you can buy all the proper pieces and tools cheaper than an expert ;D
That setup should have at least continuous 200 amp relay or solenoid which ever you want to call it, with a intermittent solenoid they will burn the terminals off that is small wire most have a cable ? do you still have the 270 amp alternator
lol I don't know the proper name Del City calls it a solenoid and Texas Industrial Electric calls it a relay same brand,parts number and amps your choice I guess
A solenoid is a magnetically activated device. It can be a switch or a valve, or something else. A relay is a switching device that is activated by one power source to complete another circuit. Generally, there is a low current source that triggers the relay to complete the circuit on a higher current. An example is your ignition; a low current wire runs all the way back from the dash to your starter motor's solenoid activated relay that connects the cables with the high current needed to spin it. Not all solenoids are relays and not all relays are solenoid activated. The relay you have in your picture is solenoid activated and is almost universally referred to as a solenoid.
If you are going to be trying to trace out wires, you may want to look into getting a tone generator. That tool has two pieces; one that sends a signal through the wire, and the other plays the signal as a tone when touched to the wire down the line. This takes the guess work out of tracing wires. You can determine correct wire size by determining the amperage it is supposed to carry and the length. Wire size charts are available online.
I thought it would be a good idea to take a picture of where I believe the wire Mike connected is located on the main electrical 'board' (on side of coach just below drivers-side window). In the picture I am pointing at the connection. This is the wire which ultimately connects to the right hand side of the relay (which still is good).
This wire is located on the right hand side of the main electrical board, in the middle. It's exact terminal is 3R. Does this change anything?
I know it's semantics, To me, that's a relay. A solenoid uses magnetic force to do work. Like a starter solenoid pulls in the lever to engage the drive gear. Or like an engine shutdown solenoid pulls in the rod to move the fuel rack.
The problem could be something as simple as that connection on the end of the wire getting lose over time and getting hot and then burning, happens all the time, lose wiring connections will create a lot of heat because the connection is being maintained through the equivalent of a small wire vs what you see and think you have.
I agree with digesterman. If it was an electrical short the wire would have been burned most of its length. A loose crimp will only burn at the crimp.
You need to clean up the mounting and correct how the wires are attached. It looks like the black wire off the solenoid is rubbing as well. HTH
Ken
The problem he has with the set up if he leaves the bridge on when starting, if the cranking batteries are low it will try and draw power through that wire and burn the terminal off Mike never spent money to do anything right after Tom left
Quote from: azdieselman on February 12, 2015, 07:55:09 PM
I know it's semantics, To me, that's a relay. A solenoid uses magnetic force to do work. Like a starter solenoid pulls in the lever to engage the drive gear. Or like an engine shutdown solenoid pulls in the rod to move the fuel rack.
a relay does not have a movable core, Power relays are called CONTACTORS; control relays are usually known simply as relays.
If you look at the red wire and how it is burned for a few inches and look at the crimp connector angled toward the metal wall it looks to me that the vibration finally rubbed through the side of the red wire and shorted it out causing it burn because of some high amperage. Remove the connector and replace the red wire and reconnect it and make sure the crimp end in down and not angled toward the wall. This is just my observation on what I see.
Thanks guys! So if I take what you all have said it looks like the red wire was used to give the starter batteries some back-up from the house batteries. The amount of amperage the house batteries were capable of producing makes the red wire (most likely) too small for that application. The red wire most likely rubbed or vibrated on the wall where the relay is located to create the fire.
I still don't know what the wire Mike installed from the main electrical board to the relay/ solenoid does, or what the middle wire to the black box in the battery compartment does. I do know I need to rotate the relay to make sure no wires are contacting the wall of the battery compartment.
I also need to figure out how the house batteries and generator are connected, and if the red dial pictured in my initial post is correctly installed. I took the red dial off the wall and took a picture of the connections, which includes the other end of the infamous fried red wire (attached to this post).
Quote from: scanzel on February 13, 2015, 07:50:30 AM
If you look at the red wire and how it is burned for a few inches and look at the crimp connector angled toward the metal wall it looks to me that the vibration finally rubbed through the side of the red wire and shorted it out causing it burn because of some high amperage. Remove the connector and replace the red wire and reconnect it and make sure the crimp end in down and not angled toward the wall. This is just my observation on what I see.
^ Gets my vote. Turning the relay will create strain on other wires because the terminals are positioned all around a the cylinder. The last picture you posted looks like the small(er) gauge red wire was pinched under the switch when mounted. Another future issue?
I have the same set up on my bus to charge the house batteries when going down the road, and to be able to jump start the starting batteries if need be. Since my bus is 12v, the DN50 alternator is 300amp. I bought two continuous rated 150amp relays and used heavy gauge steel to strap them together to make their capacity 300amp. Even if the alternator is pumping out the full 300amps (which is rare), the relays will take the load. My cables are also 3/0 to handle the 300amp load.
I have also used the relays to jump from the house batteries when the starting batteries were to low to start the big engine. Very convenient to have! Good Luck, TomC
That solenoid is there to charge up your house batteries from the bus starting batteries, not the other way around. The other side of the solenoid is connected to the 12v terminal
of the Vanner, so I assume you have a 12v house bank. I also assume there are no fuses on either end of that red wire?
Now you know why they make fuses. If one had been installed, it would have blown. On a system of this nature, you should have a fuse on the house side, and one on the black
wire between the Vanner and the solenoid. However, the Vanner has a circuit breaker, so you're probably ok on that side.
That terminal broke, probably due to fatigue, and the wire shorted to something. It didn't short to the panel the solenoid is mounted on because that's fiberglass, which
isn't conductive. It may have shorted to the solenoid itself. There's probably a negative ground wire attached to it for the solenoid coil. It may have grounded to the metal
frame that main disconnect is attached to, though it appears to be mounted to the fiberglass, too.
There's no concern of the bus starter drawing too much current through that wire because the Vanner is in between. And you don't need bigger wires because the Vanner is limited to 35 amps or so. But you do need a fuse on the line.
It's poor workmanship. You got lucky. But it may not be over.
What I'm about to say may sound harsh and over critical, so please know it's meant with the best intentions...
I'm concerned that you've owned this bus for 7 years and don't even know how your electrical system works. Makes me wonder what else has been neglected. Are you having the coach
maintained professionally? Are you watering the batteries? Adjusting brakes properly? etc. The electrical system is a basic system and you need to have an understanding of how it's
put together, what all the components do and how they work. You don't have to be an expert, but you need a good working knowledge of it. This is a prime example why. You didn't indicate what you did, so I'm guessing you didn't turn off the house batteries, and therefore are holding a hot wire in the later photos? Do you have a disconnect on your house batteries? Does it
disconnect power to that wire, or does it run directly to the battery terminal?
Yes. You need to get an electrician out to look at this system and explain how it works. Have him install a fuse.
I am not going to be hard him people that bought those from Mike were not real bus people(sorry Gary) they bought it as a ready to go unit on Mikes word
The way he did stuff will blow you away, just give me cash and go that was how Mike did business
I doubt a electrician can figure out some of the things he did on those Moose Cabins after Tom's departure JMO I think all those had 50 and 60 amp Vanners Craig I saw one that had 2-60 amps Vanners he converted
There is no monkey business that can't be fixed.
Had the 12 ga. wire lug not broken/fatigued (and I am pretty sure that is all that happened) then this probably would have been a non issue for another 7 years.
Even if it is limited to 35 amps, the wire should be at least a #6. If the vanner is up to 60 amp, it should be #4. That's figuring a 10' run though.
Your right Grumpy and Luvrbus, I am not a bus guy, and before buying the Moose I wasn't even a RV guy... I was a very foolish 28 year old. Life's gotten busier since then so knowing the bus electrical system was not a high enough priority. This wire short has made the safety of the coach a top priority, and I appreciate your guys' help with this issue.
You live and learn through mistakes, and buying the bus from Mike has been a good learning experience for me.
Quote from: JT4SC on February 13, 2015, 04:21:37 PM
You live and learn through mistakes, and buying the bus from Mike has been a good learning experience for me.
Where near are you located... maybe there is an expert near by ... ;)
Quote from: JT4SC on February 13, 2015, 04:21:37 PM
Your right Grumpy and Luvrbus, I am not a bus guy, and before buying the Moose I wasn't even a RV guy... I was a very foolish 28 year old. Life's gotten busier since then so knowing the bus electrical system was not a high enough priority. This wire short has made the safety of the coach a top priority, and I appreciate your guys' help with this issue.
You live and learn through mistakes, and buying the bus from Mike has been a good learning experience for me.
Yes, Good decisions come from experience. Experience comes from bad decisions. :-)
Life is what happens while we're busy making plans.
All of it is understandable. There are those out there who tend to feed on the uninformed. We've had a few pass through our bus community
from time to time. I'm not saying Mike is that way, because I don't know him and have never dealt with him, but he is a business man so
his goal is to make money and I think sometimes he cut some corners at times. The whole crossover relay is not a new concept, and actually the
way it was done is not even necessarily bad, but not protecting that high current circuit with an appropriate fuse or breaker is a huge mistake.
Now you know. Now you have more of an incentive to learn about your coach, and this is the place to ask those questions. Don't take
what I said before as a put down in any way. We all start at the basics, and we all ask the same questions at some point.
Lin, that wire that broke looks to me to be about a #2. Maybe even a bit larger.
Craig- I would have guessed a #8 or #6 at most when comparing it to the size of the fingers holding it. I obviously can be way off.
Quote from: Lin on February 13, 2015, 09:05:41 PM
Craig- I would have guessed a #8 or #6 at most when comparing it to the size of the fingers holding it. I obviously can be way off.
Looking at the last photo, you might be right. The wires going to the Vanner appear to be much larger, so maybe it is a #6.
Still, the Vanner photo says it's limited to 50A, so even that should be plenty large for pushing current to the house batteries.
Of course, as seen here, the problem comes when it breaks and creates a dead short and tries to drain the house batteries.
JT,
Have you read the small print beneath the Orange Fire Warning label? One comment is the terminal appears to have been installed pointing at the firewall. It should have been installed pointing toward the bottom of the relay and then trained back into the wire organizer. Terminal on cables should be pointed as far away as possible from the surface the relay is mounted on.
That is just my opinion and in this case it would have been easy to accomplish.
My understanding is that the amp capacity of a Vanner equalizer is only a reflection of how many amps the Vanner can re-balance between the two sides of a 24 volt battery bank. The 12 volt power usually comes straight from the battery bank so you can pull more than the amperage of the Vanner, but not for long periods or the Vanner can never re-balance the batteries.
I have a 200 amp continuous duty solenoid to connect the house and coach batteries, but I used 4/0 cable. Way overkill, but I had a bunch leftover that I got for less than scrap price in 2006.
Quote from: belfert on February 15, 2015, 09:29:03 AM
I have a 200 amp continuous duty solenoid to connect the house and coach batteries, but I used 4/0 cable. Way overkill, but I had a bunch leftover that I got for less than scrap price in 2006.
Hope you have fuses on both ends of that cable. Just think of the fireball a 4/0 cable would make when shorted directly to the bus frame. On common term would be "welder".
Quote from: gumpy on February 15, 2015, 03:59:47 PM
Hope you have fuses on both ends of that cable. Just think of the fireball a 4/0 cable would make when shorted directly to the bus frame. On common term would be "welder".
There are actually circuit breakers on each end. One is a 225 amp circuit breaker and the other is a 90 amp automotive circuit breaker. The feed from the bus is only 90 amps so that is why the 90 amp breaker.
Quote from: belfert on February 16, 2015, 06:15:20 PM
There are actually circuit breakers on each end. One is a 225 amp circuit breaker and the other is a 90 amp automotive circuit breaker. The feed from the bus is only 90 amps so that is why the 90 amp breaker.
Good job!
In all honesty, I'm not sure I put fuses on both ends of my crossover. It's now on the punch list to check this spring while I'm cleaning up some other issues which I overlooked when I did my battery installation.