I don't know if I can post this here if not let me know, I got an h3-45 running 24 volt, my batteries died... can you guys explain to me if the batteries die from just sitting there? I was turning the bus on every 3-5 days, then I got busy and let it go about a week and a half and when I went to start it it was completly dead.. now a few of my questions, running 24v do I always have to start it every few days? Or should the batteries be fine and I have something that's pulling current causing the batteries to die? Thanks in advance guys and if I posted this in the wrong place let me know.
More info needed. Factory conversion--IE marathon liberty etc? Year? Mechanical master switch?
Leave my XL for weeks at a time with switches turned off (engine compartment) and she always starts when powered up. Batteries are about 2 and a half years old. I even switch it off on overnight trips. Are you shutting it down when you leave it idle?
Quote from: kemo3ce on January 09, 2015, 08:47:32 AMI don't know if I can post this here if not let me know, I got an h3-45 running 24 volt, my batteries died... can you guys explain to me if the batteries die from just sitting there? I was turning the bus on every 3-5 days, then I got busy and let it go about a week and a half and when I went to start it it was completly dead.. now a few of my questions, running 24v do I always have to start it every few days? Or should the batteries be fine and I have something that's pulling current causing the batteries to die? Thanks in advance guys and if I posted this in the wrong place let me know.
No experience with Prevost but does your bus have a master battery cut off switch? On my bus, I have two Group 31's in series (24V) for start batteries. I was away for about 4 weeks over Christmas (and time off with the flu) so I didn't do any thing to my bus for that time. It sat with the batteries switched off in the cold. I came back and put a pair of "Smart Chargers" (one individually on each battery). Within 90 seconds, both chargers went to "Float" (i.e. the batteries were still pretty much fully charged after sitting 4 weeks in the cold - but they were switched off at the main master switch).
Most modern vehicles have "parasitic current draw" - current to keep memory in radios, autostart for generators, sensor voltage, etc. A week and a half is probably uncommon to have start batteries completely run flat, but that's what the main master cut off switch is for.
1 bad battery in the 4 will kill it in a hurry with even the master switch off
it does have a master cut off... supposedly i say that because the batteries obviously died.. all 4 batteries are new idk if there is ever an occurrence where a battery would be bad coming from factory. it actually has 2 cut off switches one in the dash and one in the battery bay, and yes i we had them both off... its a 2000 model passenger bus
Yes you can differently get a bad battery in a group of 4
Also if they never had a full charge and you started the coach weekly and didn't run the coach/engine long enough to bring the batteries back up, the cumulative effect could be what you experienced, especially if temps dropped with low batteries. If those batteries are old, maybe it is time to replace them. Can you get the date codes off them? Someone here can decipher the numbers. Do you have a nearby power outlet to hook up a battery charger? If your charger is only 12 volt, you may need to disconnect one from the other to charge. Charge them up and test them. Make sure the water level is over the plates first.
I have 2-31 batteries for starting. I can go months without starting (no shut off switch) and starts fine. Course, I have no electronic devices (like batter equalizer, etc). Charge all batteries up, leave them disconnected from each other, then check them in a week. The bad battery will show up. Good Luck, TomC
Starting each 3-5 days is a no no, it will cause way more harm that good.>>>Dan
As Bob said a lot more information is required.
But generally speaking 4 good batteries will retain their charge for months, even with the master "on". However as has been said if one is bad it can ruin the entire set quickly.
Separate them and test them individually after charging them all up to float. Also the reason Bob asked the question is it might be a clue because some coaches have phantom loads even with the key off. I doubt if a professional conversion will have any, but some allow the chassis and house batteries to be connected to help jump start the coach, and if that feature is employed that could be the problem because most professional conversions have many key off phantom loads.
If the coach is a home built conversion there is no end to reasons why batteries go dead.
If I were you I would start by separating the batteries and charging them and then testing them. New batteries can and will fail.
I have an H3 and going on experience I can tell you that if you don't start it and let it run or have it hooked up to an external battery charger with the batteries turned off or left on they will go dead in as little as three days whether you have one bad one in the group of four or not.
I had the same problem but Nelson at millennium coach told me to get an Extertal battery charger 24 V and leave it hooked up when the bus was not running! Ive never had an issue since!
They are funny beasts I been around H-45's that can sit for a month and fire up then the next one after 3 or 4 days the batteries are dead
Could be you have a 12v tap that has phantom loads. I had that issue with my MCI. The 12v was connected directly to the battery, so
turning off the master switch did not turn off the 12v. I installed a switch on the 12v, but I leave my batteries connected to the house
bank and on float from the inverter when parked.
thanks for all the help. i appreciate it I'm charging the batteries as we speak still haven't gotten to charge them all yet, ill keep you guys posted if you like and i appreciate the quick responses to the question.
Quote from: luvrbus on January 09, 2015, 02:37:32 PM
They are funny beasts I been around H-45's that can sit for a month and fire up then the next one after 3 or 4 days the batteries are dead
is this common? the bus isn't converted but I'm pretty sure someone messed with it a little so i will have to check things...
You might have luck charging the two of the four to get you going. The middle two are your 24v leg and each single battery is 12v. You'll probably see the larger cable/s going to the middle two. If you don't have a 24v charger, charge each of the middle two individually and it should start and after its running, IF all else is good, it should charge the other two!
one other check.. Might be a extra power wire someone put on one battery for a accessory. It prob is (if there is one) not turned off by master. Bob
CB 19,20, and 21 are always powered to retain the DDEC memory. The disconnect will not shut them down.
Having said that however, all three of my Prevost coaches would go for months without charging and with the master on and still have enough power to start the engine.
If your issue is not a bad battery, start looking for miswiring or a phantom load.
Check to see if you may have a Vanner equalizer that may be providing for a 12V load that may still be on even after turning off the battery switch. When I bought may used Prevost someone had the radio connected to 12v but when the switch was off the radio was still drawing 12v and after a few weeks the batteries were down.
Does it not have the onboard charger where you plug in 120AC at the plug near the battery bay door? If so, just plug in power.
IT DOES HAVE A PLUG NEXT TO THE BAY!! but I'm not sure if it works and the last thing i want to do is to plug it in and have the fourth of july show up in january how do i check to see if this is working safely. also yes it does have wire running to batteries from somewhere else, so it could have something stealing power directly.. i reckon i turn off the master and walk around with my multimeter trying things to see if they are drawing current? Thank you for letting me know these things this is my first bus so i have a lot to learn..
a DC clamp on meter at the batttery will better tell you if there is a draw....with and without the master on/off.
There are techniques to make any amp meter read down to milliamps.
If you have a Vanner converter for the center tap, you may just have to reset the CB - HTH
Your bus is connected to the batteries even if the switch is off. Your ECM and ECU are powered up all the time and should stay that way and not be turned off. Over the road buses were meant to be used all the time and not parked. If you are going to leave it parked you need to get a battery maintainer, not a battery charger. A battery charger left on will kill your batteries for good. If you don't want to spend the money for a good 24 volt float charger, get one for each battery from Harbor Fright for $9.99.
Jack
The chargers Prevost uses are good they have a float and won't harm the batteries if it works use it
I meant to say mine was a 24v float charger but used the term charger in general! Sorry for the confusion!
Quote from: blue_goose on January 10, 2015, 05:21:42 AMYour bus is connected to the batteries even if the switch is off. Your ECM and ECU are powered up all the time and should stay that way and not be turned off. Over the road buses were meant to be used all the time and not parked. If you are going to leave it parked you need to get a battery maintainer, not a battery charger. A battery charger left on will kill your batteries for good. If you don't want to spend the money for a good 24 volt float charger, get one for each battery from Harbor Fright for $9.99.
Jack
Thanks Jack, that's good info for this thread. But I have a basic question (in this case, "basic" is probably spelled s-t-u-p-i-d -- remember, I have never been able to figger out how them little electrictrons run around and hold hands etc.) about using two smart chargers. I have the usual 24V battery setup -- two Group 31 batterys with a - to + jumper.
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi45.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Ff60%2Foonrahnjay%2FBus%2Fbatt3_zpse2c95e6a.png&hash=67e12611965bbed00fae8ae7811f518fb2c3f626) (http://s45.photobucket.com/user/oonrahnjay/media/Bus/batt3_zpse2c95e6a.png.html)
On my bus (1976 model), the battery isolator switch does just that -- it *really* does completely isolate the batteries. But I wonder about just attaching a smart charger (I use a couple of Stanley float chargers, as shown below) to each battery.
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi45.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Ff60%2Foonrahnjay%2FBus%2FCharger_zps6f3495c8.png&hash=a2436e63840c3a70a0487c2637a02f36a5ef76ab) (http://s45.photobucket.com/user/oonrahnjay/media/Bus/Charger_zps6f3495c8.png.html)
These chargers seem really good (I use them on my car, individual batteries out of a vehicle, my generator-start battery, etc.) but I wonder. If there's a bad cell in one battery or high resistance someplace, will the "smart" circuitry be "fooled" into giving an incorrect or incomplete charge. Is it better to remove the jumper between the two batteries so that each smart charger is reading only the battery that it is directly connected to? Or does it matter - I can see that the charger would charge and read the load between the two battery posts and work correctly on that battery.
(I guess I should add that what I've been doing seems fine -- my batteries are four years old and if I charge them fully and come back 4 weeks later, the chargers go to "Float" in about 90 seconds. And that's even after a storage maintenance guy switched on the master, then when he was told by the owner not to move my bus without me being there, he walked away and left the master on for about two weeks -- that was the middle of the summer of 2013 but the batteries charged right back up and have seemed fine.)
I use those mine are the Dewalt I bought mine a lot cheaper than you could buy a Battery Tender,only draw back is when a battery falls below 9 v you need to take a 9v battery and trick it into charging lol they are not so smart
I've had the same problem, 2 batteries only running in 12v (on this unit the 24v power (AC Unit) is provided only from Alternator power.
In this cold weather the batteries are taking a kicking, I forget the model of the batteries but they are big, like 3 truck batteries type size.. takes 2 people to lift them. Unit has a main battery disconnect. I can only assume the cold weather is the cause, they were new back in March last year.
I've been looking at Solar panel battery tenders as I park the buses towards the south and the fronts receive a lot of sunlight, I would have to run a direct cable to the batteries for the charge because of the cut off switch.
My neighbor works for Interstate Batteries and I was going to ask him why their batteries would suffer so badly (being so large) and in a (in grand scheme of winters of Texas) moderately only cold temps.
Reminds me, I better go check them now as I need to use the bus later! dont want the dreaded "room room ....... oh dam"
Quote from: luvrbus on January 10, 2015, 07:54:35 AMI use those mine are the Dewalt I bought mine a lot cheaper than you could buy a Battery Tender,only draw back is when a battery falls below 9 v you need to take a 9v battery and trick it into charging lol they are not so smart
Same one, different name -- prolly made by Yan Ming Errectrical Company and Pool Room in Shanghai, what ever name you want to put on it, they'll do it. Works really well, as far as I can tell - of course, with a max of 6 Amp (8 for a short time), it won't charge a really rundown big battery quickly, but the idea is to not let them get run down.
If you have a plug in the back keep in mind it may be for an engine block heater and not for a battery charger. I'd spend a few minutes and see where the plug is coming from. If it goes to the engine block then its a block heater.
-Sean
If it is located by the battery box on a H - Prevost it will be the charger
ok just got back from out of town.. i got the batteries charged still haven't put them in yet.. here what i got, the plug on the back goes to a black box inside the battery compartment. then out of there a red and black wire come up to the jump posts on the side of the wall.. then from there cables run to the batteries. heres my idea, i want to disconnect the wires that run to the batteries so the cables that come from the black box die on the posts i want to then plug in the ac extension and see what i can read with a multimeter on the posts.. my question, what should it read? 24v 12V or what would i be looking for? thanks for all the help guys if this works its bonn solve this problem from ever happening again.. i also talked to provost.(nice guys) they said that there are 2 master switches... one thats a switch like a blade he said and another thats like a knob... the blade cuts lights and main things but the knob cuts the batteries from the bus.. does anyone know about that?
My guess is the leads coming from the black box are 24v and if properly charged the reading should 27v or close.
As for the switches? One is your 12v feed and one is your 24v feed that actually starts the bus. All your lights and accessories are 12v. The bus starts on 24v
Keep in mind that even turning off the switches, there is still going to be current flowing from your batteries to items like your vanner and your ecm because they are hard wired directly to the batteries!
It does have 2 switches but they are hooked up in series with both turned off you will still have power to the Ecm,Ecu,vanner,and if you have preheater it will have power along with the recirculating pump and I believe the door and the sound systems will still have power I check the voltage at the cut off switch
I guess I'll say it again...
a DC clamp on meter at the batttery will better tell you if there is a draw....with and without the master on/off.
There are techniques to make any amp meter read down to milliamps.
This will tell you how much draw is on the batteries with the switches off....and it will tell yo how much the charger is charging...knowing the voltage is only half of what you need to know....
Quote from: eagle19952 on January 12, 2015, 09:42:45 PM
I guess I'll say it again...
a DC clamp on meter at the batttery will better tell you if there is a draw....with and without the master on/off.
There are techniques to make any amp meter read down to milliamps.
This will tell you how much draw is on the batteries with the switches off....and it will tell yo how much the charger is charging...knowing the voltage is only half of what you need to know....
Perhaps to assist the OP, who may not have the experience and knowledge to use your advice, could you provide some links to a DC clamp meter that will read milliamp currents in large battery leads. Also links to the techniques for increasing the sensitivity of less sensitive clamp testers, particularly those with zero reading errors that aren't able to be eliminated and how you would implement that in a typical starting battery system..
Most clamp meters only read AC amps. You need to make sure you are using a DC clamp meter.
With the battery connected and the charger plugged in you will have 27 to 28 volts when the batteries are charged. If you turn the charger off you will see a drop in voltage. If you get the drop in voltage don't worry about anything else the charger is working.
Jack
The test for voltage is made with at DC volt meter. You don't need a clamp meter to make this test. See what Ace said below.
I simply use my greenleigh volt meter! 😊
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fecx.images-amazon.com%2Fimages%2FI%2F41hkw7a6-fL.jpg&hash=dcef9b54bd14ee130b8c8c8fcf3ee806b8895975)
http://www.amazon.com/MASTECH-MS2108A-Current-Clamp-Meter/dp/B009CNYJG2/ref=sr_1_1?s=industrial&ie=UTF8&qid=1421157521&sr=1-1&keywords=dc+amp+meter&pebp=1421157524218&peasin=B009CNYJG2 (http://www.amazon.com/MASTECH-MS2108A-Current-Clamp-Meter/dp/B009CNYJG2/ref=sr_1_1?s=industrial&ie=UTF8&qid=1421157521&sr=1-1&keywords=dc+amp+meter&pebp=1421157524218&peasin=B009CNYJG2)
a technique often used is to take one lead of your circuit and wrap several turns of wire around one of the legs of the meter. For example if you wrap 10 turns of wire then the meter reading will be 10 times the actual current. So a reading of .500 amp would show for an actual current of. 050 amp. If you need a better reading use 20, 30 or 40 turns or more. Then just divide the reading on the meter by the number of turns. Most high sensitivity current probes use this technique.
google is your friend.... dc parasitic load test. ;D
http://www.w8ji.com/battery_and_charging_system.htm (http://www.w8ji.com/battery_and_charging_system.htm)
You should have two master switches; one on the dash and a toggle in the battery compartment. There is no knife switch on your model unless someone added one. Sounds like you need to break out your manual.
Mine works off relays 12/24 V there is no blade switch, he can download the manual from Prevost free with the vin number
Thanks guys for the help and I'm sorry i wasn't clear on my earlier post.. the plug that i was referring to is an AC plug thats outside of the bus.. the wire runs to a black box next to the batteries.. my question was how do i check it to see if that box is working.. i finally got time to go out there today its a vanner 3 stage battery charger has three LEDS one over temp one bulk and one float.. i would like to know how to find out if it work.. i disconnected the cables from the unit so it isn't going anywhere.. current wise.. but i can't get a reading on my multimeter my guess is it need the battery to start going?? but the light does blink... green float one.. gonna put in the batteries around 3 o clock.. although one of them might be bad... which is why I'm going to wait until 3 to see if it says its ok... let me see if i can load pics
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/qbvcusdb24z7y6s/AACKUNG9jsHJsbV_z4ZRKUQ9a?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/sh/qbvcusdb24z7y6s/AACKUNG9jsHJsbV_z4ZRKUQ9a?dl=0)
You need to have battery power if it doesn't sense 18 volts it won't charge at least mine will not,if the green light blinks you have a wire that is not connected or no power that is a 42 amp charger @ 24v it will do the job so the reading will be around 28 volts.
Is the remote readout no longer there or maybe it wasn't there to begin with some have one some don't
Hello, I have a 1998 H3-41 that I am in the process of converting. 2 days after I got the bus, I left the door open, the key switch was off and the master switch was off. Leaving the door open drained the batteries down over night. With the key off and the master switch off there are still circuits that are powered up.
The door latch system, the radio clock supply, the engine and transmission computers and the fire alarm all stay powered even with the master switch and key off. I figured out which breaker feeds the door and I turn the breaker off when the bus is in my shop. I also pull the wire off of the radio and pull the plug on the fire alarm. When I do this, the batteries hold a charge for a couple of months even though the engine and trans computers are powered.
I was about to put in an additional disconnect but the list above is enough. The only issue I have is sometimes the fire alarm controller plug does not reconnect.
I traced most of this by following the yellow wires in the battery compartment. I pulled the powered wires off of the breakers and put in an in line amp gauge. With the door open a solenoid valve stays energized and it draws a fair amount of current. The wiring diagrams on the prevost web site are very helpful.
I am envious of the main manual disconnect that MCI puts in the battery compartment.
Take Care, Milo
ok got the bus up and running... just wanted to thank you guys for the help, i am going to look for a clamp meter to figure out how much is being drawn.. luckily i do have a battery charger/maintainer so i will be using that now.. next step is to go thru the wiring and figure it out wish me luck.
The main disconnect on a later MCI does not kill all the power either fwiw they will drain too,the door closer with the 4 Norgren valves and solenoids with the circuit board are battery draining suckers on the Prevost
Good luck chasing the problem Prevost is about the only bus made that uses a relay to make a relay work ???
Spend the time to check and test each battery individually before you go to the extra work first to rule out bad or worn out batteries. Check each cell with a hydrometer after a full charge and taking off the surface charge. Did you check the date codes?