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Bus Discussion => Bus Topics ( click here for quick start! ) => Topic started by: Ace on January 05, 2015, 04:03:24 PM

Title: Wheel studs
Post by: Ace on January 05, 2015, 04:03:24 PM
Anyone have any they want to part with or a  source for wheel studs number
Meritor 20x1966

Need 8 or more if price is right!
Thanks


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Title: Re: Wheel studs
Post by: chessie4905 on January 05, 2015, 05:06:08 PM
   If you have no luck, I believe the NAPAs that also sell hd truck parts can get Euclid studs and nuts. Check Euclid's online catalog for part numbers.
Title: Re: Wheel studs
Post by: bevans6 on January 05, 2015, 05:10:00 PM
Holy snapping turtles, they are $75 each!  Best price I could easily find was $49.

Brian
Title: Re: Wheel studs
Post by: luvrbus on January 05, 2015, 05:50:21 PM
They sell 5 or 10 to a package Napa can match it from Webb or Dorman
Title: Wheel studs
Post by: Ace on January 06, 2015, 04:52:03 AM
Clifford Napa is more than Prevost! LOL


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Title: Re: Wheel studs
Post by: luvrbus on January 06, 2015, 06:05:24 AM
Are those tag and front axle studs ?
Title: Re: Wheel studs
Post by: eagle19952 on January 06, 2015, 08:32:37 AM
Why would you need 8 wheel studs ?
Title: Re: Wheel studs
Post by: Ace on January 06, 2015, 08:51:39 AM
Yes Clifford


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Title: Re: Wheel studs
Post by: luvrbus on January 06, 2015, 08:57:20 AM
Call MCI they used the same stud the 20x305 was for steel wheels and I forgot the number for aluminum wheels,they change the numbers on those things all the time about the time I think I have it figured out they change numbers on me
Title: Re: Wheel studs
Post by: Ace on January 06, 2015, 08:59:31 AM
Yea mine are aluminum


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Title: Re: Wheel studs
Post by: luvrbus on January 06, 2015, 09:02:26 AM
If I remember that is a grade 10 stud and they are pricey
Title: Re: Wheel studs
Post by: Ace on January 06, 2015, 11:38:05 AM
No grade 8


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Title: Re: Wheel studs
Post by: Ace on January 06, 2015, 12:55:43 PM
Eagle,  you see, I had 2 to break so I'm replacing the other 8 just to be safe!


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Title: Re: Wheel studs
Post by: gumpy on January 06, 2015, 05:11:23 PM
When I replaced mine several years ago, I got them at Catco here in Minneapolis.
Title: Re: Wheel studs
Post by: Scott & Heather on January 06, 2015, 05:13:31 PM
about those broken studs.....


...


..


::)
Title: Re: Wheel studs
Post by: Ace on January 06, 2015, 05:57:26 PM
LOL


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Title: Re: Wheel studs
Post by: Ace on January 10, 2015, 08:53:51 AM
I have decided that Prevost is the cheapest price if All the sources I've checked and will be swapping out all ten on RF thanks to the stupidity of a certain moron for costing me approx $700.00 for not doing his job right! 😶
Title: Re: Wheel studs
Post by: Oonrahnjay on January 10, 2015, 08:58:06 AM
Quote from: Ace on January 10, 2015, 08:53:51 AMI have decided that Prevost is the cheapest price if All the sources I've checked and will be swapping out all ten on RF thanks to the stupidity of a certain moron for costing me approx $700.00 for not doing his job right! 😶

      Math Equation ---   1 Moron + 1 Big Air Impact = Stupidity + $$$$$ 
Title: Re: Wheel studs
Post by: Ace on January 17, 2015, 06:56:00 AM
Update:

First 2 studs $80.00

Next 8 studs $317.00

3 hrs labor $$255.00

Total $652.00

For what? Human friggin ignorance!

Good thing is, this overgrown moron won't EVER get the opportunity to work on ANYTHING of mine!
SMH
Title: Re: Wheel studs
Post by: bevans6 on January 17, 2015, 07:50:42 AM
Aside from the obvious, what made you decide to change them?  Were they obviously stretched or otherwise damaged?  Did you change the wheel nuts as well/

Brian
Title: Re: Wheel studs
Post by: chessie4905 on January 17, 2015, 11:24:24 AM
   What is the labor for? You should be able to change them out yourself.
Title: Re: Wheel studs
Post by: Oonrahnjay on January 17, 2015, 11:39:09 AM
Quote from: chessie4905 on January 17, 2015, 11:24:24 AMWhat is the labor for? You should be able to change them out yourself. 

      Yeah, just get a 1" drive impact driver, put it on "High", thread your new nuts on the studs, and hammer with that bad boy until they're in place.  That'll do you.  :)
Title: Re: Wheel studs
Post by: Ace on January 17, 2015, 01:17:49 PM
First of all I had one stud break when I was traveling down the highway and a month or so later a second one broke. It was obvious that the Lugnuts were over torqued by the moron that used a 1 inch high-pressure gun! It was the majority of people here on this site and at the rally that recommended all of them be replaced so I did all 10. Yes some of the Lugnuts inner and outer were replaced as well. Why didn't I do it myself? I sold my air wrench but I kept my torque wrench and for good reason
Title: Re: Wheel studs
Post by: bevans6 on January 17, 2015, 01:25:54 PM
I missed where you had two break.  I'd have replaced them all too.  pressed in studs with backing nuts, I can see where it would be hard to get them out.

Brian
Title: Re: Wheel studs
Post by: buswarrior on January 17, 2015, 02:38:23 PM
Excellent decision.

The abuse of wheel fasteners is a common problem. Many of us unwittingly have stretched studs.

Way too much proven info about wheel fasteners, liability, safety, pick your motivation...

The fasteners suffer ANY irregularity, unexplained loosening, breakage, think really hard to replace the lot.

happy coaching!
buswarrior
Title: Re: Wheel studs
Post by: Jim Eh. on January 17, 2015, 02:42:27 PM
Don't forget to re-torque them within a couple of hundred miles. Actually being brand new maybe the first check should be within 75 miles.
Title: Re: Wheel studs
Post by: chessie4905 on January 17, 2015, 03:13:04 PM
   I would have replaced them all also. If you had some shop do them you could carry your own torq stick if they didn't have a torque wrench. If you don't care for their accuracy you could check them with a torque wrench at home.
Title: Re: Wheel studs
Post by: eagle19952 on January 17, 2015, 06:12:12 PM
FWIW... they make a thing called a pitch gage, works well to id stretched threads... ;D
Title: Re: Wheel studs
Post by: Jim Eh. on January 17, 2015, 06:21:26 PM
Quote from: chessie4905 on January 17, 2015, 03:13:04 PM
If you had some shop do them you could carry your own torq stick if they didn't have a torque wrench. If you don't care for their accuracy you could check them with a torque wrench at home.

If they didn't have a torque wrench I would be leery of having them do any work on my wheels.
Title: Re: Wheel studs
Post by: Ace on January 17, 2015, 07:30:46 PM
After replacing all the studs, careful examination of the existing 8, by eye, revealed an obvious stretching of the threads on some but not all of the studs!
Old age as I was told by the shop, or the clown holding the air gun on too long?
Title: Re: Wheel studs
Post by: Oonrahnjay on January 18, 2015, 03:50:06 AM
Quote from: Ace on January 17, 2015, 07:30:46 PMAfter replacing all the studs, careful examination of the existing 8, by eye, revealed an obvious stretching of the threads on some but not all of the studs!
Old age as I was told by the shop, or the clown holding the air gun on too long?   

     Ace, with quality materials -- like used in these studs -- they're made to take a certain amount of stretch with elasticity.  That's what makes the clamping force that keeps a wheel on.  But they're also made to maintain their integrity -- IF they're treated right.  Look at the wheel axles on the B-17's that are still flying; nobody says "they're old age -- probably stretched and gonna break" even though they've had a hard life because they've been treated carefully in maintenance and assembly.
      Yes, we have old buses and they've been ridden hard and put away wet and they've had lots of changes of tires and wheels but if the studs had been treated correctly, they shouldn't be damaged.
      I'm going with the clown holding the air gun too long as the issue on your studs.  Maybe not once, maybe the damage you saw was a progression on many times treated badly.  But, yeah, treated badly.
Title: Re: Wheel studs
Post by: ccrider on January 19, 2015, 06:33:09 AM
Care to share the name of the shop you are obviously blackballing here, or keeping that to yourself?
Title: Re: Wheel studs
Post by: luvrbus on January 19, 2015, 06:43:38 AM
If you think the guy stretched the studs with his impact you better check your wheels because you are not going to break a stud using aluminum wheels it will break the wheel first if the stud is in good shape to begin with BTDT I am not defending the guy either steel vs aluminum the steel wins every time
Title: Re: Wheel studs
Post by: Ace on January 19, 2015, 06:45:03 AM
Yea it's a local shop and although the owner and I are friends, I'd rather not say. It's not entirely his fault. It's the hired help he keeps!
Title: Re: Wheel studs
Post by: eagle19952 on January 19, 2015, 07:08:20 AM
Quote from: luvrbus on January 19, 2015, 06:43:38 AM
If you think the guy stretched the studs with his impact you better check your wheels because you are not going to break a stud using aluminum wheels it will break the wheel first if the stud is in good shape to begin with BTDT I am not defending the guy either steel vs aluminum the steel wins every time

i wondered about that too. I have seen an impact crush and deform an aluminium wheel long before it distorted/ruined the stud...
Title: Re: Wheel studs
Post by: bevans6 on January 19, 2015, 07:43:41 AM
I was curious about this, so I did some math and looked up some stuff in some of my go-to resource material.  The stud is basically a 1 1/8th stud with a 16 TPI thread, the spline is .81" nominal diameter as it presses through the hole.  I ignored the nut on the hub side of the stud.  Root diameter of the 1 1/8" thread is around 1.07", so it's cross section is around 0.9".  A Grade 8 stud has a material strength of 130,000 PSI to yield ( the point of maximum stretch with no plastic deformations, basically) so that stud has a strength of 118,000 lbs before it will stretch permanently.  Ten studs, 1.18 million lbs.  The spline is smaller, .81" in diameter, so it's strength is just under 67,000 lbs.  One would expect the stud to fail at the root of the splined section before the threaded portion would fail.  One would not expect these studs to fail given the typical loads and torque from doing up wheel nuts.

So what is that torque?  I couldn't find a torque/load chart that had 1.125 - 16 TPI, since it's not a SAE thread per se, so I looked up 1.125 - 12 TPI, which is an SAE standard.  The torque to load for the 16 TPI would be slightly higher than for 12 TPI, but the torque with dry threads to induce the yield torque and maximum design clamp load in a 1.125" 12 TPI fastener is 1,440 ft lbs.  In other words, you should be able to torque that stud to 1,440 ft lbs without damaging the threaded portion of the stud in any way.

Now, I really don't know why Ace's studs failed, but the research I have found is that a lot of failures come from under-tightened lugs rather than over tightened, particularly with aluminium rims.  The loose wheel moves, the aluminium crushes out, the stud is subject to flexing, one lug a bit loose means the load on the adjacent lugs is higher than design, a small fatigue crack starting from corrosion or damage, and boom - lug falls off.  With aluminium wheels, a too loose lug would often start with a too tight one, causing the aluminium to fail and crush out, as suggested by others here.

Interesting science to all of this.  Edit; a good link:  http://www.meaforensic.com/wheel-separation-investigation-metallurgical-expert-mark-bailey-mea-forensic (http://www.meaforensic.com/wheel-separation-investigation-metallurgical-expert-mark-bailey-mea-forensic)
Title: Re: Wheel studs
Post by: eagle19952 on January 19, 2015, 09:13:15 AM
A good well oiled and fed 1 inch air impact gun can put out 1600 to 1900 fp/torque. that would entail a 1 inch feed hose and a very large compressor.
The ones that I have been around are air adjustable for max/limit torque output.  they can be regulated, one would hope that a good tire shop will have pre-set/limit the air to the gun.
Title: Re: Wheel studs
Post by: bevans6 on January 19, 2015, 09:28:29 AM
Agreed on that.  One thing I didn't mention is that if you torque the lug nut to say 1500 ft lbs, you will develop far more clamp load than is needed to rip the stud off the hub.  The .810" diameter splined section will fail well before you exceed the plastic deformation capacity of the 1.125" wheel nut section of that stud.  Interesting, and of course all other things being equal...

Brian
Title: Re: Wheel studs
Post by: Oonrahnjay on January 19, 2015, 10:54:47 AM
Quote from: bevans6 on January 19, 2015, 07:43:41 AM...  Interesting science to all of this. 

     Sure is!  Thanks, Brian.
Title: Re: Wheel studs
Post by: buswarrior on January 19, 2015, 12:24:14 PM
Somewhere in my collection, I have a couple of examples of stretched studs. The threads under the nut were leaning over, damaged from the high torque, and the stud is noticeably skinnier further down its length, such that you wouldn't be able to run the nut down there properly.

The natural elasticity of the stud is what gives us the clamping force to hold the wheel and let's the stud take road shocks. Stretch it, and it won't stay tight, and can't withstand road shocks as well. Elasticity in our studs is our friend!

Remember, the tire tech may have turned the gun UP to remove the last set of stubborn fasteners and forgotten...

happy coaching!
buswarrior

Title: Re: Wheel studs
Post by: Ace on January 19, 2015, 12:39:33 PM
Okay not sure the why, or whats, but I do know there's only been one to remove the wheels on different occasions since I've owned the bus so the where and who are known!
It's water over the dam and I'm not wanting to lose a friend over stupidity on another so it is what it is and that was a costly error on not only their part but mine too for trusting they (he) would do it right! It won't happen again, that's for sure!
Here's a bad pic of the studs broke off and you can see how HE stuck the nut covers back on using tub and tile caulking and half of them left the wheel too!
Plain and simple, it was a mess!

(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1203.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fbb394%2FGoldbus%2F71815D63-0ADB-4928-95EA-9E7FE556B336.jpg&hash=32b49ad3ec58ca7e8649b6cc35872ed391870397) (http://s1203.photobucket.com/user/Goldbus/media/71815D63-0ADB-4928-95EA-9E7FE556B336.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Wheel studs
Post by: Ace on January 19, 2015, 12:48:28 PM
Let me also add this is the same guy that rung off the studs of one air bag using an air gun when replacing it. THAT he paid for because I was standing there. He's the same guy that while changing said air bags, took the plastic air line and folded it over and squeezed it with vise grips to keep it from leaking down. Had I not been there, he would of put it back together but I told the boss and he made him replace all those lines! Pure ignorance!
Title: Re: Wheel studs
Post by: Oonrahnjay on January 19, 2015, 03:52:20 PM
Quote from: Ace on January 19, 2015, 12:48:28 PM...  Pure ignorance! 

     Yeah,  Ace, ignorant and sloppy (and I guess lazy if he tries to stick his broken mistakes on with caulk).  Bad combo.
Title: Re: Wheel studs
Post by: Ace on January 19, 2015, 04:57:51 PM
Don't get confused. The caulking was to hold the lug nut covers on the lug nuts, not the broken studs! The studs broke during travel and there went the covers as well as a few others where the studs didn't break!