Ok, yet another little snag. :-\
I have brand new start batteries in my 4108 (8V71) and am having issues with charging, I think. It seems to me that it may be an intermittant problem.
History:
Bought the bus, had to jump it. Put in new batteries.
Drove it, ran out of fuel, ran the batteries down. Charged them back up.
Took it to IL. and the next morning after we got there, they were down again. Did a little messing with a VOM and charging and they seem to be charging again. (It seemed like the generator had lost polarity and jumpering it across got it back (?) )
Drove it a time or two since and it's been ok.
Drove it to my mechanic and when I went to get it, he had to jump it. Drove it home.
Went out this morning after I had the motor plugged in over night and she barely made a grunt.
So, now I need to charge them back up but only have a 12v charger. (it's 24v) Previous chargings were by other people.
What is it that I need to do? I assume I should put the charger on the + of one battery and the - of the other one but not sure. Or should I dissconnect them and do one at a time. I have a good charger with low, med, high, start settings.
Then what can I do to find my problem?
Thanx again from a newbie billed as a full member!! ;)
Chaz
You can charge the batteries one at a time without disconnecting them. Just hook the charger up as you normally would on one battery, charge it, and do the other one.
However, you have got to find your charging/discharging problem soon. These batteries will only take a few complete discharges before they are junk.
Be sure the batteries are disconnected when ever you leave the coach for any lenght of time.
Len
Chaz
I only drive my bus short distances so my batteries never get charged from driving. I always put two twelve volt chargers one on each battery and plug in the block heater this time of year.
Just part of my starting routine in the cold.
Melbo
Chaz, did you ever put your VOM on the batts after you got it started? You need to know if the alternator is putting out charging voltage... somewhere in the neighborhood of 28v is required to keep them charged whilst driving.
You might just not be driving it long enough to charge them back up... esp. if you're having trouble firing it off. Check all of those starting circuit cables and connections, if you haven't already. A few hours with sandpaper and protectant goes a LONG way towards having reliable starts. A 24v starter, charged batts, good connections, and a warm engine should fire the high-compression DD off instantly... not even one revolution.
Use the batt. disconnect every time you stop/ park it. You can keep the batts on "float" (a special charger, 3 or 4-stage, for keeping batts "topped off") OR just charge your batts once a month with a dumb charger. Use two 12v chargers or get a 24v charger from BatteryStuff.com (like this one (http://www.batterystuff.com/battery-chargers/24-volt/0-4amps/Son2404S.html))
HTH,
Brian B.
Chaz,
You may have something draining your batteries, even when your not running. Look for a short or some switch that is on.
My two cents,
Bill
I use a small solar panel, that I throw up in the windshield, when the bus is parked for a long time. It keeps the batteries toped off. If I park for a month or so, They will run down on thier own. You will need 2 solar panels. One on each battery.
Steve
Thanx for the help guys. I'll do my checking tomorrow. Is there any other checking I can do?? I can tell ya, the connections on the battery and cables are very good!! I went to great lengths to get good connections.
The solar panels sound interesting. Any info on what to get or where?
Let me know of any other things I should look for when I'm checking things out (voltages in different places, etc.)
Thanx.
Low on electricity,
Chaz
Hey Chaz, check your e-mail, sent some suggestions for you.
Good luck.
Sammy 8)
What Brian said - throw the disco EVERY time you shut it off until you get it figured out. Your batts are too valuable to risk destroying them by repeated deep discharges. It should be possible to eliminate the bus electrical phantom loads such that you can shut off the bus without having to throw the disco but you will have to spend some time doing that. In the meantime take the sure route & throw the disconnect.
Quote from: Chaz on December 27, 2006, 01:17:31 PM
I can tell ya, the connections on the battery and cables are very good!! I went to great lengths to get good connections.
Chaz, OK... but did you check the
other end of the cables:
- where the positive #2/0 connects to the starter solenoid
- where the positive #2/0 connects to the alternator
- where the negative #2/0 connects the starter to the engine block
- where the negative #2/0 connects the engine to the chassis AND (hopefully) back to the batts
These wires are critical to the system, and a small amount of corrosion can lead to a huge amount of starting problems. BTDT.
HTH,
Brian B.
Chaz, have you seen the post(s) that tell you how to check to see if you have a small phantom load, like a small light that stays on all the time, and it is out of sight so that you do not see it?
Richard
Amen to the battery disconnect, I have them on all batteries. They saved my bacon once when the starter stuck on!
"(It seemed like the generator had lost polarity and jumpering it across got it back )". I hope you didn't do this to an alternator. Polarizing is for generators only-not for alternators. It is also called "Flashing the field". NEVER do this to an alternator.
gusc: Why would you not use the same procedure on an alternator as on a generator?
Quote from: gusc on December 27, 2006, 06:18:50 PM
. Polarizing is for generators only-not for alternators. It is also called "Flashing the field". NEVER do this to an alternator.
I have to respectfully dis-agree with Gus on this.
All generators and alternators get started charging by using the residual magnetism present in the laminations of the device. It is a very low voltage developed, usually less than 10 volts, but it is what gets the units started producing power. Anytime a device is dis-assembled it is possible for it to lose its residual magnetism.
I worked with these devices for over 40 years, especially alternators, and many times I had to flash the field to get an alternator producing power.
A few times on units that has sat for many years, but generally after a unit had to be disassembled for diode or bearing replacement.
On an AC alternator it really does not matter which way it is flashed. In other words it does not matter which lead the positive potential is applied and it can even be flashed with an AC source of power, but there are occasions when it actually must be flashed.
Richard
Richard: I agree with you, and I have also flashed many alterntor fields but I assumed that gusc must have some valid reason for saying to never do it. Maybe it it is another urban myth.
Ok, I charged them up, and took her for about a 60 mile drive-- I love drivin her!!!
I got back and NAPA checked the CCA and the bats are real good.
I'm going to check with a VOM to see if I have 24v+ at the bats.
Sammy sent me a list of a couple things to check also. Not sure I understand it all but I'll figure it out.
Richard, I'll search "Phantom Load" and see what I can learn there also. Thanx!
Tryin to get juiced!
Chaz
Ok, looks like the alt. isn't doing it's thing. :-\ I use a VOM and check the bats individually and at 24v and it barely reads over 12 or 24.
Anything else I can do??
Lost my electricity,
Chaz
A quick check of the alternator is to "full field" for just a moment. With a voltmeter connected across the batteries (or any convenient location where you can see the system voltage), connect a jumper from the armature (Battery) post to the field post. If the alternator is working, you will see an immediate jump in voltage, probably see lights brighten and may even hear the engine load up a bit. Don't leave the jumper on for more than a few seconds.
If the alternator is good then that only leaves the regulator and/or the wiring.
Len
Chaz,
I had similar issues with my Eagle 12v system. I installed new group 31's, checked all connections, then fired her up to see what the alternator output was. It was low, around 12.5. My manual says it should be 13.8, so I adjusted my voltage regualtor to reflect around 13.8. I know yours is a 24v system, but it might get you in the right direction.
I do agree with others that say to disconnect the batts when sitting. I hope you have a manual that will give you some help with your charging, or lack of charging problems.
Good Luck,
Happy Trails,
Paul
Dreamscape
Len, Can you tell me which post is which? I can't see any markings to verify which is which.
Electricity is a good thing!
Chaz
Chaz: It sounds like you don't have the manuals for your bus. It is much easier for people to help when you can foloow along in the book. If you don't know where to get the manuals, just ask.
Quote from: Chaz on December 28, 2006, 05:13:41 PM
Len, Can you tell me which post is which? I can't see any markings to verify which is which.
Electricity is a good thing!
Chaz
The posts Len is talking about are on the regulator. Battery is probably marked B or +.The Field is probably marked F.
Richard
Chaz on your batteries the big post is positive.
LarryH
;D ;D ;D Thanx Larry. I also noticed they have a big + next to them also. LOLOLOL ;)
Correction of what being said in this post.........In the pass posts Richard had made many good & corrected points...however this needs to be re-corrected.... "Alternator" will not charge whenever no field current present but generator can. So Gus is correct on this point.
Polarizing the neutral generator momentary is normal because it do not have "in-coming" source of power like alternator have....which is energize field with half of battery voltage to put back used power back in. However if battery is stone dead (O or Zero voltage) then its battery need charge some or fully before reinstall in vehicle. Don't reverse polarity on alternator's output terminal (+) or you have shorted or welded or burn-out diodes...Gus is right
And if you run alternator & disconnect battery terminal at the same time....it voltage will run wild to damaging alternator as well regulator.
If generator have lost it's magnetic flux in rotating parts...it will not produce power but by momentary jump power start via outside source than it will be on it own. Richard is right
However all alternator need a set given input power (according to the battery state of charge) to field to induce magnetic field in order to charge and ONLY then will it charge.
About battery drainage...there should be no more then ½ voltage drainage between either pos post to disconnect pos cable end OR between either neg posts to disconnect neg cable end. Very common a light is still burning in bay compartment or leaking diode (diodes) in alternator or coating of sulfuric acid on battery top & side. If so wash it off using 1 part of baking soda to 3 part of water with cheap bristle brush to shrub & rinse with water from garden hose.
Otherwise be sure your battery is fully charge before you go any where.
Please read this and you will be money ahead and save many waste hours of labor in the long run;
http://www.uuhome.de/william.darden/carfaq4.htm
Caution...DO NOT fill battery higher than just top of cell plate UNTILL state of charge is fully up near 1.280 specific gravity @ 70º F. Otherwise you will have weakened electrolyte fluid flowing out the top of filler opening while charging. That why to make sure you have or add water to top of cell plate before charging to full state of charge....then fill it to ring as per battery manual.
It important to remember the proper filling procedure......it a common shorten battery life & weakening problem.
Sojourn for Christ, Jerry
Quote from: Sojourner on December 29, 2006, 09:29:30 PM
Correction of what being said in this post.........In the pass posts Richard had made many good & corrected points...however this needs to be re-corrected.... "Alternator" will not charge whenever no field current present but generator can. So Gus is correct on this point.
An alternator without a voltage regulator connected will put out a few volts resulting from the residual magnetism in the field laminations. In a boot strap type operation, this small voltage is applied to the voltage regulator which will then boost it up a little and then a little more output to the field and so on until the alternator is up to the proper output voltage at which time the regulator will then control the field voltage to provide the proper output.
Please remember that an alternator is an AC device. It puts out AC voltage so it really does not matter which way the field is flashed since there is no polarity problem. The polarity of the output is determined by the way the diodes are connected.After the diodes you then have a DC output.
Richard
Richard: You are quite right. The term alternator and generator does not refer only to automotive use. People who have self exciting alterantors on their gensets are not like the alternator setup on their engine. It is obvious that Gerry was only thinking about the automotive use and just confused the issue even further.
The theory that an automotive alternator will self excite from the battery voltage applied to the field is only valid if the voltage regulator is working. As someone else pointed out, connecting battery to the field will quickly show if the alternator is working. On a DN50 this is one of the tests called for in the manual to test current draw on the field.
The 50 DN alternator can be controlled by a positive field or a negative field style regulator. Some applications have a metal busbar between the BAT post and the F1 terminal, the regulator will control the ground side of the field coil on F2. Another application will have a metal busbar providing constant ground on F2 (connected between F2 and the stator mounting bolt), with the voltage regulator supplying regulated voltage to F1 (there will be NO metal busbar between the BAT post on this style alternator and F1 of course).This is one of the preliminary checks I make before performing a full field test.
The full field test is DIFFERENT for each style of regulator control, very critical to determine which style of regulator control you have.
Stay safe, work smarter, not harder. 8)
Sammy: Thanks for the info. Do you know which bus manufacturers used a negative regulator?
Hi Stan, I saw this when wrenching on transit buses. Just wanted to mention that the Delco 50DN was used in different types of charging systems, to be careful when working with them. The 50 DN will put out almost 300 amps when full fielded. Something to keep in mind when working with them - safety first.
Regards,
Sammy 8)
Sammy, is it possible that positive ground systems, like the 4104, would use the positive field regulator and the negative ground systems use the negative field regulators?
Richard
Hello Richard, I do not know the answer to your question. I not familiar with the 4104 coach or positive ground systems. The buses were all negative ground systems. There were 2 different voltage regulators that were used, depends on how the field coil was controlled - that determined which regulator was used. Hope this may help.
Regards,
Sammy 8)
Thanks, that was what I was wanting to know. BTW, the 4104 was a positive ground system.
Richard
Richad and Stan,
Sorry, I thought this string had died and hadn't looked at if in a while.
First-I assumed we were talking about automotive alternators since he was talking about charging his batteries. AC alternators are an entirely different animal. As one poster said, all generators are alternators until something is done to the AC output.
An automotive gen DC output is a clipped AC to make it look like DC, good enough for auto use, and it has permanent field magnets. By placing the brushes in the right place only a few armature windings are used at a time to keep the output polarity positive.
An automotive alt DC output is rectified AC and it has no permanent magnets. Diodes are used to keep the output positive. All the stator windings are used all the time so it is much more efficient. I guess they are called alternators because the are constructed pretty much the reverse of auto generators? The stator in an alt is the armature. In a gen it is the field.
You don't flash the field in an alt because it has no permanent magnets so flashing would do no good and you run the risk of accidentally flashing the diodes in the wrong direction thus destroying them!
I'm assuming that giant AC generators have giant permanent field magnets and need flashing but since it is AC it doesn't matter which way it is flashed.
The DC auto gen direction matters because it has the brushes placed to make the DC output a certain polarity.
An auto gen will provide output even if no battery is present.
An alternator will not provide output without some field excitement by an outside source, normally the battery. However, if the battery is completely dead (0 volts) there will be no output.
Running an auto alt without a load connected will destroy it.
This is all pretty much what Jerry said but you asked. No urban legend here, ask any auto mechanic.
Hey Guys,
I still have that charging issue. A mechanic buddy of mine did some checking on it and found that there wasn't any voltage going to the regulator to control the output voltage of the generator.
---- Does that make sense??-----
Anyway, I need to run it (to St.Louis) and I am going to do what he said, for now, to get me thru: I ran a #8 wire from the battery post (big post) on the generator to the POS post on the regulator with a high amperage switch between them. He says just remember to turn the switch off when I park.
Doing that shows the generator charging using a VOM.
Now, IF any of you think that is a BAD thing to do and will hurt something, PLEEEEEESE give me a call on my cell as I am just about out the door. (812) 212- 2222
Thanx a bunch!!!!!!!!!
Heading west, young man,
Chaz
Chaz,
Sounds like your low-voltage cutout relay in the regulatory has failed; you may not be getting current to the batteries even though the generator is showing voltage.
I would make sure the switch you installed is off until the engine is running and off before the engine is stopped. Your generator will act as an electric motor when connected to the battery and your wiring is not up to that load.
Chaz, your buddy is correct, do not worry.
The voltage regulator cannot control the charging system without battery voltage at the POS or BAT terminal of the regulator. Send e-mail if you need any help or have any questions.
Sammy 8)
Chaz,
It sounds to me as if that wire detached is the voltage sensor wire so it needs to be connected only when the engine is running or it will slowly discharge the battery.
I have converted a couple of antique tractors to alternators and they all have this switch except one that already had a light. When an alternator is mounted on a gasoline engine it the engine won't shut off unless the switch is opened because there is a small amount of feedback to the ignition system through the alternator!
You can substitute a small light or resistor for the switch and get the same results. This is the same wire that operates the (Idiot light) on autos. I can't tell you the size of the resistor but it is pretty small, this is not the charging circuit.
This is a very low amp circuit so your #8 wire is way overkill. A 22 gage wire would probably work just fine.
The DN 50 alternator draws a maximum of about 9 amps on the field plus a little loss in the regulator so your #8 is fine until you get around to fixing the problem.
Thanx guys!!
I made it out and back ok. I love my bus!!!!!!!! But on the way back, the lights were... uh, pulsating for lack of a better term. They would dim a little and then brighten back up. I'm not sure if that was because of my regulator thing or not. They didn't do that on the way out.
Looks like I'm going to have something else to do now.
Thanx again!!
Chaz
I have 4 batteries in mine and I would like to know how you charge each 12v battery without disconnecting them since on some they are wired neg to positive and positive to negative? I have always charged them seperately but if there is an easier way, please inform!
Ace
Chaz, try turning on the headlights the next time this happens and see if it quits pulsing. Your batteries are probably fully charged and the regulator is just checking and making sure. This is apparently a problem with some of the older regualtors.
Quote from: Chaz on April 03, 2007, 09:42:12 AM
Thanx guys!!
I made it out and back ok. I love my bus!!!!!!!! But on the way back, the lights were... uh, pulsating for lack of a better term. They would dim a little and then brighten back up. I'm not sure if that was because of my regulator thing or not. They didn't do that on the way out.
Looks like I'm going to have something else to do now.
Thanx again!!
Chaz
Sorry, my bad. The headlights were the lights that were pulsing.
Do you think what I did to get by is the cause?? I guess I will find out when I get it fixed, huh. :)
Chad I do not think you did anything to harm anything. This is a common complaint that I have seen dozens of times on various boards. As I recall the problem is generally the regualtor pulsing because there is not enough load on the alternator.
Richard
Quote from: Chaz on April 03, 2007, 11:04:13 AM
Sorry, my bad. The headlights were the lights that were pulsing.
Do you think what I did to get by is the cause?? I guess I will find out when I get it fixed, huh. :)
Thanx Richard. I guess as problems go, that isn't such a bad one. ;)
If I'm not mistaken, if I would have my 4024 invertor hooked up, the generator would be helping with other electrical needs. (?)
Thanx again,
Chaz