Spotted this on I-4 in Florida this morning:
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Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk. Clumsy fingers may contribute to mistakes.
Cool setup indeed. That would also have the characteristic of removing weight from an overloaded front axle. It also probably means that rear axle is slightly underloaded and can handle some more weight.
About the only thing I can think of is weights and balances when everything is settled down, but I am sure that has been calculated into the engineering. (?) Cool way to haul a toad. Thank you. HB of CJ (old coot)
I'd sure like to see how they modified the frame and engine cradle to handle that. Those cars are about 1800 lbs. Add another 200 or so for the lift. They're what, about 4 feet wide? So
you have 1000 lbs sitting 4 feet from the rear frame attachment. That's about 4000 lbs of downward force on a bump, if I recall that correctly.
No. I'm thinking this is probably an accident looking for a place to happen! But maybe not. Would really like to see this up close and personal.
Quote from: HB of CJ on December 16, 2014, 10:04:46 AM
I am sure that has been calculated into the engineering HB of CJ (old coot)
I seriously doubt it.
Quote from: Hard Headed Ken on December 16, 2014, 10:10:20 AMI seriously doubt it.
Looks to me like there is a stub receiver for a trailer along what would be the centerline of the bus. Yeah, pretty much slapped together looking to me, too.
I was told by Prevost the max tongue weight is measured 8 inches from the receiver to the center of the ball is that correct ?
hi All, the buses back looks lower than the front, one of those swivel wheel flat trailers would probably take the weight of the hitch, lvmci...
http://www.cruiserlift.com/swivelwheel.html (http://www.cruiserlift.com/swivelwheel.html)
In addition, and FWIW, does that dinky car only weigh 1800 pounds? I kinda remember reading or seeing something where they are much much heavier. They needed to be even using high grade steel to pass the USA crash worthiness tests. Extremely heavy for their size? Dunno. Anyhow, if they were heavier, then that might make the proper engineering even more ... of a "challenge"? Dunno either. Yikes? HB of CJ (old coot)
Won't work on my GM ::)
Yup, spec is 1808 pounds for that car. 108" bumper to bumper. Per the Smart Car website......
The tiny engineering part of my brain tells me JDLR. (Just don't look right) I could be wrong though. I have been before...
Quote from: gumpy on December 16, 2014, 10:09:14 AM
I'd sure like to see how they modified the frame and engine cradle to handle that. Those cars are about 1800 lbs. Add another 200 or so for the lift. They're what, about 4 feet wide? So
you have 1000 lbs sitting 4 feet from the rear frame attachment. That's about 4000 lbs of downward force on a bump, if I recall that correctly.
No. I'm thinking this is probably an accident looking for a place to happen! But maybe not. Would really like to see this up close and personal.
Actually the entire 2000 pounds is centered 4 feet from the hitch. The heaviest Prevost engine cradle is limited to 1500 pounds 8" from the receiver face. that means in the simplest of terms that Prevost owner is destroying his cantilevered engine cradle structure. The first evidence will be a longitudinal crack all across the fiberglass cap near the bottom as well as splits in the cap at every rivet up the sides and across the top.
By then however the hidden damage to the structure will be broken welds. It will reach a point if he continues to load the car like that it will result in a catastrophic failure because even though there are some diagonal members from the truss going down each side, they are outboard of the structure that is cantilevered off the axle structure sub-assembly.
A Harley will do the damage I noted above. You can imagine what that car is doing.
And if he should have a problem/emergency in the engine compartment......good luck with that!
Prevost has stated they will not do repairs to any coach in which the engine / hitch structure has been damaged.
I know some coaches that had damage because a motorcycle carrier was added. Nobody knows the extent of the damage because the supporting structure is behind the skin and I don't think anyone would want to get into tearing the skin and damaging the expensive paint work, just to see if there is damage.
One would hope that there is some serious engineering that we just can't perceive for this attempt at a toad free lunch.
The owner is one of my neighbors, he has been doing this for a long time. I think this is the third car that he has been tooting. He lives full time in the coach and puts lots of miles on it each year. I am sure he will be back to the Arcadia rally again this year.
Jack
There was a thread about the legality of doing this some time ago, and the conclusion was that it was illegal to do with a Smart car in the US because they're longer than the maximum permissible width, and although there are shorter car models out there (primarily various French makes), none of those models can be bought in the States.
Having said that, a quick Google search shows plenty of examples of people doing it and presumably getting away with it
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(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-6NLCSekDrNk/TzMR2EksRdI/AAAAAAAAJG8/SwwmkArT05Y/s591/1.jpg)
And there are various others...in some cases with the car on an angle to reduce the width, such as this example:
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Jeremy
PS - Can't comment on the Prevost engineering aspect
I'd be interested to see it up close at Arcadia. It's a marathon coach. I have heard horror stories of engine cradle stress doing ugly things...
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In the top photo above the rods running from the top down to the carrier have the load greatly transferred to the longitudinal truss which relieves a lot of the stress on the engine cradle.
I don't know if its the same one or not but there was one of those at Arcadia whenever it was that we were down there. That has to be over 5 years now so - if its the same one - its lasted that long at least. At the time I thought it was an accident looking for someplace to happen but maybe it has lasted longer than I thought it would.
Quote from: bobofthenorth on December 17, 2014, 04:17:15 AM
I don't know if its the same one or not but there was one of those at Arcadia whenever it was that we were down there. That has to be over 5 years now so - if its the same one - its lasted that long at least. At the time I thought it was an accident looking for someplace to happen but maybe it has lasted longer than I thought it would.
It is the same one and he will be there again this year.
Jack
Quote from: blue_goose on December 17, 2014, 05:33:49 AM
It is the same one and he will be there again this year.
Jack
Jack,
Maybe you can take some photos of the details in the setup and post them back here for us. Obviously there's more going on than we can see or
understand, and it would be a real learning experience to see how they've overcome the problems.
This setup is similar to something I've considered for mauling motorcycles.
Grumpy I thought I was the only person that mauled motorcycles.
Every time I go dirt bike riding it comes backlooking like it was mauled.
have a great day.
only 15 more days till i get to head to Arcadia. baring a lot of snow and if the old Detroit starts.
uncle ned
I don't want to maul my bike, but I would like to take it with me!!
I will be there and I can look it over!
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I think I read someplace that Prevost makes a kit to beef up the back end so you can pull 20,000#. I'm not sure if that also increases the tongue weight capacity as well.....but the general rule of thumb is 10% of the trailer weight should be your tongue weight.
Quote from: uncle ned on December 17, 2014, 07:13:45 AM
Grumpy I thought I was the only person that mauled motorcycles.
Every time I go dirt bike riding it comes backlooking like it was mauled.
have a great day.
only 15 more days till i get to head to Arcadia. baring a lot of snow and if the old Detroit starts.
uncle ned
Haha. That one got by me. Maybe there's some truth in it though I prefer not to maul my bike. :D
Quote from: jetart on December 17, 2014, 11:15:44 AM
I think I read someplace that Prevost makes a kit to beef up the back end so you can pull 20,000#. I'm not sure if that also increases the tongue weight capacity as well.....but the general rule of thumb is 10% of the trailer weight should be your tongue weight.
20,000 lb. trailer weight, 1500 lb. hitch weight, 8" from the face of the receiver.
The standard for Prevost was 10,000 lb. and 1000 lb tongue weight, but more recently I believe the heavier cradle has been used, although you can get the heavier one retrofitted.
Jon -
Nice, thoughtful comment about the Prevost structure, well worth noting.
This also tells me that some of these entertainer Prevosts that pull a big (25'+) box trailer with their equipment could also be destroying the coach due to a heavy tongue load.
Another reason to spend the $3500 or so for a TrailerToad (www.trailertoad.com (http://www.trailertoad.com))
FWIW & HTH. . .
;)
http://www.treehugger.com/cars/jumbo-shrimp-smart-car-conversion.html (http://www.treehugger.com/cars/jumbo-shrimp-smart-car-conversion.html)
Quote from: Jon on December 17, 2014, 12:43:27 PM
20,000 lb. trailer weight, 1500 lb. hitch weight, 8" from the face of the receiver.
The standard for Prevost was 10,000 lb. and 1000 lb tongue weight, but more recently I believe the heavier cradle has been used, although you can get the heavier one retrofitted.
Jon, Thanks for the clarification.
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This was hanging off the back of my schoolbus! The welding was bloody awful to put it mildly. It had a little gate for an ATV to be loaded.
Underneath, there was a single supporting beam, tack welded to the back bumper on one side only. That was tack welded to the underside of the chassis. There rest was welded to the back bumper and to the rub rails. There were no lights nor reflectors.
Needless to say, that shelf met my angle grinder...
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Here in Morro Bay about 20 years ago there was a gent building coaches form Greyhounds, he converted a couple Scenic Cruisers and raised the floor a little bit and fitted the early Honda cars in the baggage compartment,he did pretty nice work if I remember correctly but this was 30 years ago. I wonder if any of those coaches are still around.
I believe he use to live near Olivet, Michigan where I live. Met him first time at Arcadia Rally in 2004. I will look for him when we get there this year.
Quote from: Jeremy on December 16, 2014, 02:26:04 PM
There was a thread about the legality of doing this some time ago, and the conclusion was that it was illegal to do with a Smart car in the US because they're longer than the maximum permissible width, and although there are shorter car models out there (primarily various French makes), none of those models can be bought in the States.
I wonder if they are getting away with it due to the car being considered the "load" and not part of the vehicle?
RJ,
Prevost is very comfortable with the towing weight as long as the tongue weight limits are never exceeded. The coaches do very well pulling the loads in a straight line due to the nature of the chassis structure. But carrying the weight which is a vertical load is a real concern because when the coach hits those types of bumps that bottom out our driver seats that load on the cradle increases dramatically.
I am sure we all have hit the type of bump that bottoms out the driver seat or the front air bags so it is not hard to imagine how that increases the stresses on the engine cradle that was never designed as a load bearing structure beyond supporting the engine.