We are back in the Texas panhandle for Christmas after a 4 day ski trip at Breckenridge/Keystone. This trip dealt a lot of lemons, so I made as much lemonaide as I could stand. We arrived Tiger Run on Monday evening uneventfully from Texas. We were ahead of the Denver blizzard. One hour after I shut the bus down and switched the bus from the engine heat loop to the Webasto loop, the Webasto fouled with soot and shut down. Keep in mind if you have followed my dealings with the Webasto in the past 3 years (see "webasto woes" in the archives of the BNO board for details) this is the 3rd year in a row the heater has failed above 5000' msl. grrrrr!!! This was my first lemon. So, we were plugged into a 50 amp plug and on comes all the electric heaters, lemonaide.
The next day we drove the bus over to Keystone to park where we've always parked for the past 2 years and the attendant runs up to the bus and says, "you can't park here. You have to go to the tenderfoot lot." It was about two miles away, and off we go to park there. We were only one of about 3 vehicles in the whole lot. We grab our ski gear and begin walking to the bus stop. I slip on the ice and fall squarely across my skis on my back. Folks, I must tell you it hurt like hell. After a few minutes on the ground my boys pick me up and we groan to the shuttle stop. The bus stops, we attempt to board. The driver says, "you can't go without a pass." We explained what the parking lot attendant told us and after about 6 minutes on the radio the supervisor finally told them, "oh hell, let them get on."
We skiied till about 1:00 and my wife and I get on the shuttle back to the coach for lunch. Walking up to the coach I notice papers all over the windshield under the wipers. Food coupons??? Not hardly. The bus had a warning ticket and call for towing removal from Vail Resorts for illegal parking. Looking to the side of the bus the other cars that were next to us were being carried away by a towing company. Yikes, I get on the phone and get in touch with the transportation director from Keystone resorts. He gets on the radio with Vail parking enforcement and assures me that I was ok to park there. I wasn't too comfortable with his assurance so I left a note in my window with his business card saying, "we have permission to park here from the director of transportation. Don't tow this vehicle." More lemonaide.
We get back at 5:00 and the Eagle is still there so we drive back toward Breckenridge with a stop needed at City Market. I made a right turn to the side road and hit snow pack with my right back wheels that promply threw everything out of the cabinets on the curbside of the bus. Broken dishes and more lemons.
After that we back into our spot at Tiger Run and turn those electric heaters back on. It was really cold and I was walking the dog and she finished her business, so I attempted to pull the door handle to open the door and it broke off in my hand, (lemons). A pair of pliers solved that problem (lemonaide) RV type door lock handles are pretty lightly made, I guess. I walked around the street side of the bus and noticed one of my front wheel lug nuts had broken off. I got new front tires in July and the &^%$%^& shop torqued them down too hard. Now in the cold it decides to separate itself from my bus. lemons.
The next day we skiied at Breckenridge and used their shuttle system. We never started the Eagle again. We watched with amazement the goings on in Denver and I was really nervous about my mechanical bay temperature since the Webasto didn't work. I installed a new nozzle in the webasto to see if it would work any better. It did the same, ran about an hour with heavy black smoke and soot and clogged up the burner chamber with carbon black. Fortunately the electric water heater and Trace battery charger kept the temps just above freezing. By the time we left Friday the water temperature in the bay had dropped to 37 degrees.
Skip to Friday morning and it is time to go. I new I could get about 1 hour of operation from the Webasto if I cleaned all the soot out of the burner chamber. This would get the engine started. (I don't have an electric block heater. I'm getting one when I get home.) Trust me I've been through all this before. I also turned on the circulator pump in the engine loop Thursday night to move the coolant through everything. This would scavenge a little heat from the electric water heater. Doing this raised the engine temp to 40 degrees from -9 degrees.
I still had a lift ticket left that my wife didn't use so I went to Breckenridge to sell it. I was standing close to the ticket area holding it up saying, "one day lift ticket, $60." That is $20 below the window price. After 5 minutes a lady bolts from the ticket area and threatened to arrest me for scalping. (lemons) I was stunned. She was serious. I sheepishly said I'm sorry. I'm from Texas. I didn't know. There are no signs. blah blah. Then she said you can get a refund at the window. But my ticket says, "no refunds" on it. "You can get a refund", she said. Lemonaide. I got the full price back. Go figure.
Now the fun begins. Back to the Eagle and flip on the Webasto. It smokes and coughs, smells like the Durango/Silverton steam engine. dropping soot particles all over the pretty white snow, but it is heating the water. After 30 minutes the DD 6v92 is 75 degrees. Bingo she starts right up. More lemonaide, yum.
Walking around the coach stowing cords and such I see red liquid on the ground below the power steering reservoir. It is bubbling out the top. I clean up the mess and attempt to drive out and it now whines like a jet engine. Lemons. I check the level and it is full. We leave Tiger Run and off we go eastbound on I 70 to Denver. After warming up the whining stops. (self healing Lemonaide.) I'm not sure what caused this.
We get to Denver at 3:00pm Friday and the traffic is at a standstill. We debated about going I 70 east and US 287 south to Limon but heard the I 25 was clear. Oh man we should have gone east. The traffic on I 25 was crawling to Castle Rock so we exited to go east on CO 86 toward Limon. Guess what? It was closed at CO 83. We then turned south on CO 83 and went to Colorado Springs. Back on I 25 again, the traffic was not moving and my boys turned on the TV and the news said it was like this all the way to Pueblo. We exited
I 25 on Academy Blvd and looped east to CO 94. It took 2 hours to get out of Colorado Springs. Driving east on CO 94 my cruise control quit. More lemons. The road was very good and no traffic. We finally made it to US 287.
We turned south on US 287 and ick. It was solid snow pack ice. 30 and 40 mph was all we could do. North of Lamar some folks in pickups behind me got antsy and attempted to pass. They made it around me, but when one attempted to get back in the lane, spinning he went. A couple of circles later he is into the fence in about 3 feet of snow. No one hurt, but a brand new ford truck with paper tags on it is wrapped in barbed wire.
The roads clear at the Oklahoma border. We are driving through Boise City when I get to this 18 wheeler blocking the road. He had high centered his trailer jacks backing into a driveway. Lemons. I had to back up two blocks and go down a side street through solid ice for five blocks to get back on US 287. Lemonaide.
Driving a bit farther all of the sudden the auto shutdown light comes on and bam the bus quits. I roll to a stop. Lemons. A check of the engine room shows nothing awry. I get back in the coach and it starts right up. Oil pressure normal, temperature normal. We drive on. Darn, it does this 5 more times. From the manual I decide it has to be a defective pressure switch on the oil system. I disconnect wire 62 and the symptoms stop. Lemonaide. I'll get that replaced when I get home.
We arrived in Dumas TX at 3:15 am 13.5 hours after we left Breckenridge. I parked at Walmart and turned on the Webasto knowing it would work at a lower altitutude. Wrong, it was too sooted up to work. It promptly dropped to 45 degrees in the coach. The engine still had enough heat to start at 7:00 am. I filled with fuel at Walmart ($2.46 with the gift card) and drove to the inlaws in Pampa, where I'm typing right now.
I cleaned the webasto out Saturday morning. Lots of soot. I put it back together and it has been running flawlessly ever since. It's a toasty 71 degrees in the coach and about 38 outside. That's all for now. I think I'll go drink some lemonaide.
Merry Christmas.
David
Update, Update, Update. Dec. 26, 2006
I got the cruise control fixed. Some ice had hit the speed sensor and knocked it wamperjawed. I bent it back into place. I removed the fartherest downstream wire that throws the skinner valve relay when the Auto Shutdown activates. This way the light would come on but not throw the skinner valve. It never activated in the 530 mile trip from Pampa to Pleasanton. I may have some bad diodes in the circuit. Those are cheap to fix. The webasto ran like a champ for 3 solid days in 25 degree weather in Pampa. (just like the previous times before)
The trip home was uneventful. Now I need to fix the lug nut, door lock, and begin the letter writing campaign with Webasto to come up with a solution to its altitude problem.
Happy New Year.
David
Wow David,
What a adventure, [lemons to lemonade] and you pulled through every one of them....
I like your storys, you should write a book about your trips...
Nick-
As they say "It's not just a bus, it's an adventure!" Glad to see everything worked out okay for you. Merry Christmas
Frank
That was some adventure, I think you've had enough lemonade for one year, I hope you change your drink on the way home to something harder like root beer. I've had similar trips like yours, but not as bad, at least you arrived safe and are having a Merry Christmas with the family.
I hope your trip iis not contagious like others have had on the board,Merry Christmas and have an unadventurous trip home and a lot better New Year.
From one Eagle to another
Pete and Jean
Fantasy
Glad you made it out of CO ok. I don't understand the soot problems in your webasto. I'm suspicious of the air inlet adjustment. I don't have problems with my aquahot. Brian Diehl just had problems with his webasto, and replaced the nozzle and it works great again. Sure don't understand why you keep having problems with yours.
Take care on the remainder of the trip.
craig
Glad you made it out of CO ok. I don't understand the soot problems in your webasto. I'm suspicious of the air inlet adjustment. I don't have problems with my aquahot. Brian Diehl just had problems with his webasto, and replaced the nozzle and it works great again. Sure don't understand why you keep having problems with yours.
Take care on the remainder of the trip.-------------------------------------------------------------------
This has been an ongoing problem. After much correspondence and phone calls with Webasto USA, I am getting the implication from their engineers that these units will not function above 7000' regardless of the air damper setting. I am not a happy camper because I was explicit with Wrico as to my requirements for a cold weather ski coach, and Dick Wright was confident with the information that he had from Webasto that this was the unit that would do the job as I requested.
Now, after 3 consecutive failures in 3 consecutive high altitude heating needs, this heater does the same thing each time. Works great before I go. Soots up at altitude. Come back down, clean out the carbon black and it works fine. New nozzles beget me the same results. A return of the unit to a Webasto service center (some $110) showed absolutely no problem with the heater at all. (at sea level of course). I have done every suggestion made by the engineers at Webasto to correct this problem without success. I guarantee you that when I get home the letters to Webasto will fly, and I will make a lot of noise about this problem. If indeed they tell me that it doesn't work at high altitudes then a gross misrepresentation was made by them before I purchased this model heater. Nowhere in their owner's manual or installation manual, or operating specs does it say that you cannot use this above 7000'.
So far I haven't been able to make any lemonaide out of this lemon.
David
Hi David,
Just from expierence, it sounds like an air to fuel ratio problem at high altitude.
The fix would be to know how much more air the unit would need at 7000ft....
I'm not sure if the wabasto unit is adjustable for the extra air needed to burn properly. Most likely, the blower in the combustion
chamber would need to be able to ramp up or somehow adjust to let more air into the chamber.
Good Luck
Nick-
Duane: It is quite obvious that you have isolated the problem to altitude. Nick's sugestion to add more air would be fine if there ia any way to do it (none to my knowledge). The other alternative is to put in a smaller nozzle to get the proper air-fuel ratio. Since you live in Texas, you will not need the maximum output of the Webasto except when you go up in the mountains in the wintertime.
The air problem could be solved with a supercharger on the air inlet but I don't think you want ot go that route!!
Quote from: Nick Badame Refrig. Co. on December 24, 2006, 09:08:47 PM
Hi David,
Just from expierence, it sounds like an air to fuel ratio problem at high altitude.
The fix would be to know how much more air the unit would need at 7000ft....
I'm not sure if the wabasto unit is adjustable for the extra air needed to burn properly. Most likely, the blower in the combustion
chamber would need to be able to ramp up or somehow adjust to let more air into the chamber.
Good Luck
Nick-
I would suspect that a smaller fuel nozzle would be the easiest. Might cut down on the amount of heat but I guess anything to resolve the problem would be nice.
Richard
Hi David,
I went to the BNO archives and re-read about your Webasto issues. I have the 2010 in my Aquahot system and as you know, live in Colorado (you passed by my place when you went south on CO. 83 @ CO. 86). I don't have any problems with my burner at altitude.
A couple of suggestions for you, fwiw:
If I recall correctly my installation manual said exhaust length not to exceed 9 feet in length with no more that two 90 degree bends.Obviously, the diameter needs to be correct too. Exhaust back pressure could reduce air intake volume.
If your bays are sealed real well you could restrict intake there too.
Voltage is real critical on those burners to maintain adequate blower speed. I would check voltage at the burner under load. I would even check voltage when it is real cold outside too. I believe it is possible that cold fuel could create more load on the unit thus dropping voltage even more.
One other check would be fuel pressure. She won't burn clean unless fuel pressure is within specification. This is another thing that can be effected by cold temperatures, so check when cold if possible. Low fuel pressure can be caused by supply or return line issues,low voltage, filter problems, and pump wear.
hth, Tq
Hi David,
I went to the BNO archives and re-read about your Webasto issues. I have the 2010 in my Aquahot system and as you know, live in Colorado (you passed by my place when you went south on CO. 83 @ CO. 86). I don't have any problems with my burner at altitude.
If you read the "webasto woes" thread then you know what was attempted. I opened the damper as per Richard Edwards suggestion. He is the Webasto engineer that has been helping me. The attempt was a complete failure.
A couple of suggestions for you, fwiw:
If I recall correctly my installation manual said exhaust length not to exceed 9 feet in length with no more that two 90 degree bends.Obviously, the diameter needs to be correct too. Exhaust back pressure could reduce air intake volume.
On page 403 of my Webasto installation manual it states, "exhaust pipe tubing of 1 1/2" must be used with up to 270 in bends and no longer than 16'. Mine is 11' with one 90 and a 30 degree bend.
If your bays are sealed real well you could restrict intake there too.
We opened the bay doors in an attempt to see if this would help. No success.
Voltage is real critical on those burners to maintain adequate blower speed. I would check voltage at the burner under load. I would even check voltage when it is real cold outside too. I believe it is possible that cold fuel could create more load on the unit thus dropping voltage even more.
We were plugged into a power pole so the voltage from the Trace to the battery bank was never less than 13.2 volts throughout my system.
One other check would be fuel pressure. She won't burn clean unless fuel pressure is within specification. This is another thing that can be effected by cold temperatures, so check when cold if possible. Low fuel pressure can be caused by supply or return line issues,low voltage, filter problems, and pump wear.
The fuel pressure on my gauge 8" from the heater inlet showed no change from low altitude to high altitude.
What really concerns me is the dialogue I had with a Webasto USA engineer named Gilbert on Tues Dec 19. (Richard Edwards was gone for Christmas) After explaining my whole dilema, he came out and said, "the 2010 wasn't designed to run at these high altitudes". My blood pressure really began to rise when he said that, because as I wrote above, I was told this would run at these ski areas that we go to each year. I may have a $6000 system that won't do what was promised to me when I bought it.
David
Quote
I would think that the only place to get a good fuel pressure reading that would be of any benefit would be between the pump and the nozzle. I do not know if you can get in there to install a guage or not. My waste engine oil furnace had a guage and regulator in that location. Also had a draft adjustment on the exhaust which was adjusted using a special draft guage and it made all the difference in the world how clean the exhaust was.
Richard
I agree with Richard. The pump is an integral part of the head, and I'm not sure you can get a fuel pressure reading there.
Soot is a product of incomplete combustion, isn't it. I believe the problem is improper mixture of air and fuel.
I'm wondering if heating the fuel would help. Maybe wrap a copper fuel line several times around the webasto water jacket before entering the fuel pump. Then hot water in the body will preheat the fuel prior to it being pressurized into the burn chamber resulting in better atomization of the fuel, and better mixture of air and fuel for combustion.
The reason I suggest this is because those of us with aquahots don't seem to have burn problems. I noticed when my unit is cold it can take a couple trys to get it to fire, but when the fluid in the tank is warm, it fires the first time, every time, regardless of outside temp. These are the same symptoms Brian Diehl was seeing before he started having problems at 40*, and changed nozzles to fix it. The standard Aquahot has a 15 gallon reservoir, so it keeps the head nice and warm in between cycles. The standard Webasto has a smaller reservoir.
craig
Quote from: gumpy on December 25, 2006, 11:52:23 AM
I agree with Richard. The pump is an integral part of the head, and I'm not sure you can get a fuel pressure reading there.
Soot is a product of incomplete combustion, isn't it. I believe the problem is improper mixture of air and fuel.
I'm wondering if heating the fuel would help. Maybe wrap a copper fuel line several times around the webasto water jacket before entering the fuel pump. Then hot water in the body will preheat the fuel prior to it being pressurized into the burn chamber resulting in better atomization of the fuel, and better mixture of air and fuel for combustion.
The reason I suggest this is because those of us with aquahots don't seem to have burn problems. I noticed when my unit is cold it can take a couple trys to get it to fire, but when the fluid in the tank is warm, it fires the first time, every time, regardless of outside temp. These are the same symptoms Brian Diehl was seeing before he started having problems at 40*, and changed nozzles to fix it. The standard Aquahot has a 15 gallon reservoir, so it keeps the head nice and warm in between cycles. The standard Webasto has a smaller reservoir.
craig
I think that is righrt and if you can not change the air mix, then you must change the nozzle size to reduce the amount of fuel.
Richard
Richard and Craig, both of you are correct! [switch to a smaller nozzle]
The down side of this fix is the loss of BTU capacity. He could loose 10 to 15 thousand BTUs...
Which is a major loss in a bus of 40 Ft. I'm wondering if there might be a air volume fix that would work
instead of sacraficeing the capacity.. Something like a retrofit blower fan that can have an adjustable damper,
something like a residential oil furnace which is made to be able to be adjusted for high altitudes.
Nick-
David,
I'm talking about fuel pressure from the pump in the burner. iirc somewhere north of 100 psi. I'm pretty sure that some of the school districts up there are running these units in their busses (Aspen, Vail, etc.) Something ain't right. Even if your 12 volt system shows 13.whatever....you gotta' measure voltage AT THE BURNER UNDER LOAD. This measurement will rule out high resistance connections or other issues.
Please keep us posted. As you are well aware, we will try to help.
Tq
Thanks Tq. I'll mention that to Mr. Edwards.
Nick,
The webasto tech named Gilbert, that I spoke with on Dec 19, said there is no way to change fan speed on this model. Unfortunately, that is not an option on the DB 2010. He suggested I buy a bigger unit. Yea, right.
David
OK David,
Your option is to reduce the nozzle size and sacrafice some btu's in the high eleavations.
It's a shame the didn't build an air adjustment into this unit. I guess they think everybody lives at sea level. :P
Is your nozzle accessable without tearing the whole unit out?
If you can tell me the nozzle size and degree I can put you in the ballpark on a smaller size.
Nick-
Quote from: Nick Badame Refrig. Co. on December 26, 2006, 07:34:23 PM
OK David,
Your option is to reduce the nozzle size and sacrifice some Batu's in the high elevations.
It's a shame the didn't build an air adjustment into this unit. I guess they think everybody lives at sea level. :P
Is your nozzle accessible without tearing the whole unit out?
If you can tell me the nozzle size and degree I can put you in the ballpark on a smaller size.
Nick-
I really doubt if he will lose any BTU from what he has been getting since it is burning so poorly. In fact I suspect he will gain BTU overall if he gets it burning correctly. At least that is the way it was with my waste oil burner. They also emphasized the importance of having a good open exhaust stack.
Richard
Quote from: David Anderson on December 26, 2006, 06:51:33 PM
Thanks Tq. I'll mention that to Mr. Edwards.
Nick,
The webasto tech named Gilbert, that I spoke with on Dec 19, said there is no way to change fan speed on this model. Unfortunately, that is not an option on the DB 2010. He suggested I buy a bigger unit. Yea, right.
David
David,
If you have the standard DBW2010 like mine there should be a shutter on the underneath side of the head. On my unit the shutter is adjustable. Last summer when I was up in the Big Horn mountains at 8000' I just opened the shutter up more until the exhaust cleared up (smoke went away). Doing that worked great for me.
Also, on the nozzle, do you have the "newer" style 0.35 nozzle or the "older" 0.40 nozzle? When I just replaced my nozzle I had the older style in it and all I could get was the new style locally here in town.
-Brian
As per Mr. Edwards instructions I opened the air damper all the way at Breckenridge and tinkered with various other settings, too. It didn't help. I could really hear the flame noise go down when the damper was adjusted toward the closed position. The damper setting makes a big difference in flame size.
I have a .35, 60 degree nozzle. As I stated in the original thread I replaced the nozzle at Breckenridge with a new one just to check if it would get better. It never quit smoking and ran about an hour before it choked itself to a flame out. I waited a day and cleaned all the carbon black out of the burner tube and chamber so I could use it on Friday to get enough heat to start the engine. That worked well enough to get us going, but it again choked itself up with so much soot that it wouldn't work when we got to Dumas.
After Dumas I cleaned it out again, adjusted the damper back to the factory setting and ran it for 3 days at the inlaws in Pampa and it never smoked a bit. Pampa is 3300 feet msl. I even put the up stack pipe on it to carry the fumes above the bus. That made the exhaust run 22' with an extra 90* turn and it didn't effect it a bit.
I havent' contacted Mr. Edwards yet for help. I've been too busy catching up at the office.
Brian, where is a good place to get nozzles? I've been buying from Wrico, but the shipping from the left coast to Texas is about $15. There ought to be a less expensive alternative.
David
I just pulled out my invoice from Sure Marine from back in July 2004 when I sent the heater in the first time it happened. All they did was change the nozzle, but typed a note that said, "smoking may have been caused by unburned fuel in the exhaust pipe." That is something I've never looked at. Perhaps I need to do a "chimney sweep". What would be good to tie onto the end of a hand cranked sewer snake cable to scour the pipe out? It's worth a try, because that is one thing in the puzzle I haven't attempted.
If Brian's heater will work at 8000', there is no reason mine shouldn't either. There has to be a solution.
David
David,
Something I just thought of.. If the unit has a selonoid valve to cut off the fuel feed, it's possible that the valve
may be leaking fuel into the chamber when the unit is off and causing raw fuel to enter the chamber. Then when you fire up the unit
you will have a rich condition causing what firemen call backdraft or a build up of unburned fuel which will then soot.
Just a thought!
Nick-
Based on what you have done and said, I am going to guess you havve a draft problem. Too small a stack pipe, too many bends too long stack or something like that. Mine always smoked when I first lit it off, but it always cleaned up after running a few minutes. An extra 22' of pipe should really create problems. Do not know why it did not.
Richard
It wasn't an extra 22', just an extra 11'. My stock length is 11' with 139 degrees of bends.
David
David, I strongly susspect you have about eight or nine feet too much of stack. Also, my oil heater indicated a maximum of 90 degrees of bend.
Richard
Quote from: David Anderson on December 28, 2006, 09:35:55 AM
It wasn't an extra 22', just an extra 11'. My stock length is 11' with 139 degrees of bends.
David
Brian,
What size is your exhaust pipe and how long and how many bends? Mine is 1 1/2" x 11' with 130* bends. I'm thinking about upsizing to 2" x 5' with one 90* bend, inconvenient for the bay doors, but should eliminate any airflow issues.
David
Quote from: David Anderson on December 29, 2006, 01:08:46 PM
Brian,
What size is your exhaust pipe and how long and how many bends? Mine is 1 1/2" x 11' with 130* bends. I'm thinking about upsizing to 2" x 5' with one 90* bend, inconvenient for the bay doors, but should eliminate any airflow issues.
David
Hi David,
My unit is setup with one 90 degree angle (long sweep) and about 16" of exhaust pipe.
-Brian
Wow Brian,
That is a very short run and good planning on your part. That has to be a factor in my problem. I can shorten mine to 4' with one 90* sweep bend. Hopefully that will solve my problem.
Also, I'll continue to tinker with the shutter above 8000' to get the cleanest exhaust possible. We won't be going back to the mountains anytime soon, so the test will be a long time in the future.
David
This was a very interesting thread one of the best I've read in a long time! From excessive fuel on start up, to length of exhaust and number of bends and fuel temp....what it sounds like is a screw up from the manufacture.......they need a variable speed fan motor that runs according to the barometric pressure, this fan would increase speed with the variable being the barometric sensors signal......That is a problem for the factory not rejetting or jury rigging a fix, this could be a serious problem, I'd make them fix it.............if they advertised it to run at that altitude then it should without any problems! AS LONG AS YOU INSTALL IT PER THEIR SPECS! 6,000 bucks is a lot to spend for something that won't run as advertised!
Pat
http://prevostlemirage.blogspot.com/
I really believe that if he gets rid of the long exhaust and the excessive bends and then adjusts the air mixture properly, that he will not have any more problems at higher altitudes.
Really need to determine how to adjust the air mixture properly. Since you can not see the flame, I really do not know how to do that.
His is the only complaint I have seen regarding this and I really think it is a result of the above items.
Richard
I'm not the only complaint. When I spoke with Richard Edwards from Webasto USA January 2006 after my freezing ski trip to Wolf Creek, he shared with me that they had complaints with the 2010 in high altitude marine boat installations. There can't be too many boats in high altitude lakes in the mountains, but there must have been enough to take notice. Regardless, he said if I opened the shutter more than the OEM setting it would clear the smoke. Just reset the shutter back to the OEM mark when I get back to Texas.
My frustration and disgust was overwhelming in Breckenridge when it didn't work. However, if Brian's heater works, mine should, also. The difference is in the exhaust pipe. It has to be a puzzle piece. I just hope it is the last piece. Think about the boats. Their exhaust pipe is probably less than 2' long, hence the shutter adjustment was all that was needed to make the heater operate, an easy fix.
All this is subjective speculation, but I will give it a try and see what happens.
David
Yea, lots of guessing going on isn"t there?.
Richard
I have no experience with a Webasto at 8000'. I think the highest I have run one is 7000+' but I didn't have to make any adjustment at that altitude. My exhaust pipe was the 12" X 1 1/2" flexible SS pipe supplied by the dealer. It went straight through the bay floor and made a gentle bend to run parallel with the underside of the floor.
Each time I completed an installation, I went back to the dealer to have any adjustments made. He adjusted the air mixture with an exhaust gas analyzer (CO or CO2) and did a smoke test. The only time I had a soot problem was if my house batteries were low voltage.
Nice story! If it was not for incidents like that, you might not remember the trip years later! Glad it worked out.
Hello.
There is a test rig for checking the fuel pressure at the burner. You remove the nozzle and screw the pressure gauge in its place.
Mine is 2 hours away. I'll try to remember to take a picture next weekend and post. You can rig one up by using an old nozzle as a base, solder on a brass pipe and thread on a gauge.
I agree there has to be an air flow problem here, intake and/or exhaust. Webasto is from Germany and a carefully engineered product, even if their US reps are not holding up their end of the stick in advice or suggestions. I would be shocked to find that it cannot be adjusted for altitude for the North American continent.
There are too many folks who love their Webastos, we have to find a way for you to love yours too!!!!
happy coaching!
buswarrior
Here is a link for someone else having a similar problem:
http://www.busnut.com/bbs/messages/11/16306.html?1167962120#POST109588
Richard
It looks like he got his fixed on the BNO board.
I had some time a couple of days ago and shortened my exhaust pipe to 4' with one 90* turn. There was a lot of soot in that pipe. I ran the heater for about 2 hours and it is working fine (in Texas). If we take the bus up to the mountains this summer I'll stop at some mountain pass and test it out. Anyone else who goes to Colorado or a high pass in the future, stop at a pullout and run your Webasto for about 30 minutes to see if it clears and doesn't smoke. It would be a good test to make sure you don't get frozen when you really need it. I too believe that good German engineering should let this product work in high altitudes. I'll eventually find the right fix.
David
Quote from: DrivingMissLazy on January 04, 2007, 06:46:34 PM
Here is a link for someone else having a similar problem:
http://www.busnut.com/bbs/messages/11/16306.html?1167962120#POST109588
Careful - I made the mistake of posting over there that there was a similar thread running here and got deleted for it.
deleted where bob?
Here, or over at BNO?
Which is the more powerful?
Free flow of ideas and knowledge for the Customers or egos of board owners?
happy coaching!
buswarrior
David, I don't see where you mention what the fuel temperature was. Cold fuel will cause an INCREASE in oil output through the nozzle. Does your unit have some way of bringing the oil temperature up to room temperature before it gets to the pump? The nozzle is rated at 80 degrees.
Another poster mentioned heating the oil to make it atomize better, and that will help. But cold oil is a big deal. Here, in Alaska, we use single fuel line installations to prevent cold oil from reaching the pump.
For what it's worth.
Tom Caffrey
Tom,
That could be an issue, however, the Webasto manual doesn't address it. I saw an installatiion with copper line coiled around the heater to preheat the incoming fuel. Interesting. The manual recommends #1 diesel. I wonder if kerosene would work?
David
Quote from: pvcces on January 08, 2007, 07:14:56 PM
David, I don't see where you mention what the fuel temperature was. Cold fuel will cause an INCREASE in oil output through the nozzle. Does your unit have some way of bringing the oil temperature up to room temperature before it gets to the pump? The nozzle is rated at 80 degrees.
Another poster mentioned heating the oil to make it atomize better, and that will help. But cold oil is a big deal. Here, in Alaska, we use single fuel line installations to prevent cold oil from reaching the pump.
For what it's worth.
Tom Caffrey
Tom, if the coach sits for a period of time in very cold weather then the Webasto needs to be run to warm the engine to be able to start it, as well as heat the coach. In this situation. you would have no way of providing 80 degree oil. BTW, I did this several times in weather just above zero and it always worked good. The Webasto smoked a couple of minutes at the max and then cleaned up. I do not believe there is a requirement to heat the fuel in temperatures above zero. Don't know about colder than that.
Richard
Hello.
There is an optional electric probe heater element that slips into a circular collar on the burner holding piece.
You have to get way down heading towards -40 degrees (Farenheit or Celsius, the two cross somewhere down there) before diesel will get into serious trouble flowing for the Webasto, or any other fuel fired device. Of course I assuming a relatively clean filter to begin with.... restiction will trigger an earlier problem.
For serious cold weather, clogging the fuel filter with the induced waxing is the big problem. The filter would definitely benefit from being inside the enclosure that the Webasto is in to catch some of the heat of the unit once it fires.
happy coaching!
buswarrior
Diesel #2 at 0 C is approaching ten times the viscosity that it has at 40 C. Oil this cold will not atomize quickly and it will flow through a burner nozzle much too quickly because of loss of spin in the nozzle.
Winter diesel is much better about this, but it isn't normally available in the southern states. Using a blend of #2 and #1 can give you a way to deal with getting a burner started. Once started, heat from the burner can be utilized to clean up the combustion. If the heat isn't used, sooting of the heat exchanger will occur pretty quickly.
If the burner's air is not adjustable, and it wasn't designed to be started at elevation, changing the nozzle or the pump pressure is about the only chance you have of adjusting the mix. You don't want to have too much air because efficiency drops off pretty rapidly.
To find out what the mix is, it only requires that you let a burner man with a CO2 tester measure the combustion gas. That and the flue temperature give you the burner efficiency.
For what it's worth.
Tom Caffrey