Coach is at wwwilliams Grand Rapids. If we want to upgrade injectors from 70's what are our options and about how much should they cost (parts cost). Just want to be sure we don't majorly overpay for the injectors. Mechanical 6v92t turbo. New twin radiators (larger 8 tube units). I've seen cliff throw (I think) numbers somewhere in the $100 range per injector??? Does that sound about right cliff?
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Scott you need to change the turbo for a upgrade in power at Williams it is going to you $$$$ a guess over 3 grand with the 7g70 which you probably have you have 277 hp and 863 ft lb of torque
I wouldn't go over the 7g85 injectors that will give you 330 hp and 1000 lbs of torque with the right turbo of course
So can't go with bigger injectors without changing turbo? OK. So I'll stick with my gutless wonder and drink my coffee slowly as I ascend the hills at 25 mph lol. Thanks cliff. Always appreciate your help and advice along with the others here
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A couple years ago, I installed 9G90s and a TV7512 turbo. Goes really good. 350 HP and 1020 ft/lbs on paper. The usable torque is between 1300 and 1900 rpm. I cruise at 65 mph at 1800 rpm. Well worth doing.
JC
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Too me part of bus ownership is relaxation while on the road, I am never in a rush to get anywhere, and if hill climbing happens at 20mph, it allows me much more time to see the view, get familiar with my surroundings, and enjoy life.
Good to see your bus moving again Scott.
Thanks Craig! Hoping to cross with you guys again. As for bus power, the issue right now is that we can't get above 55 mph right now and we also can't go more than 35 mph on gentle short grades in indiana or Michigan. Definite issues.
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Quote from: Scott Bennett on October 09, 2014, 09:38:30 AM
Thanks Craig! Hoping to cross with you guys again. As for bus power, the issue right now is that we can't get above 55 mph right now and we also can't go more than 35 mph on gentle short grades in indiana or Michigan. Definite issues.
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fuel filters ?
That just a minor problem Scott 277 hp will take it down the road it's probably not getting full fuel caused by the cable ,shutdown or fuel supply
Being a gear head hot rod type, I would be playing the 9200 injectors, on the 8V-92,
did that with a good 6V-92 @ 450 hp turbo, as large as you can go easy and use the aluminum air box covers, there will be a fuzzy film around the covers but will not break off like the 9210 injectors will, certainly will put a smile on ya.
DAVE M
The truck version with 9A90 injectors put out 335hp and 933lb/ft torque. The better spray pattern of the 9G90 will increae to 350hp and 1000lb/ft torque. I wouldn't go any higher than that on a mechanical engine with few gears. If you had a 13spd, then yes, go as big as you want. Good Luck, TomC
Maybe you can conduct the chassis dyno test before the tuneup? It almost sounds like you are having throttle or fuel flow issues. Just a thought outside the box. Maybe all you need is a good Detroit 2 Stroke Man give your mighty Detroit a good tune up? I also would be interested in the chassis dyno before and after.
A good mechanic would know what to look for including rack adjustments, fuel lines, fuel purifiers, (speel check not working) (how do you speel filtures?) and fuel pumps along with looking at the induction system carefully. Bad stuff does eventually happen. Your problems might just be some simple adjustment.
If you go to just bigger injectors with no other changes, sometimes it is counter productive. Lots of expensive other systems would have to be addressed like the turbo, an additional intercooler, air intake and exhaust. All expensive. Sorry for the choppy post...slight stroke. You should be going faster. HB of CJ (old coot)
FWIW changing a turbo is about as hard as changing the spark plugs on an old Mini (read into that about 10 minutes if the engine is hot) and rebuilt turbo's aren't that expensive. I vote (like my vote had weight ;D ) to look for the solution to the power problem, get the 9G90's and the right turbo, and let your right foot decide how much power you need. It's nice to have a few extra ponies, when you are going up that hill...
Brian
Quote from: bevans6 on October 09, 2014, 04:12:19 PM
FWIW changing a turbo is about as hard as changing the spark plugs on an old Mini (read into that about 10 minutes if the engine is hot) and rebuilt turbo's aren't that expensive. I vote (like my vote had weight ;D ) to look for the solution to the power problem, get the 9G90's and the right turbo, and let your right foot decide how much power you need. It's nice to have a few extra ponies, when you are going up that hill...
Brian
but would you be willing to pick-up the labor charge over 10 minutes... ;D
in reality it could take an hour ... :o
occasionally the nuts are hard to get at and cooked onto the studs, and the pipes are often heat warped,
I think Clifford is the Messiah!
I think HB is onto something.
If it runs OK, maybe it needs a tune up, new air filter, new fuel filters, new fuel pump or just to have the turbo output tubes retightened.
Can you hear a whine at road speed?
Are you making smoke? when,? what color?
As others have said, there's no cheap way out. Larger injectors will require a turbo change.
My Canadian realiabilt came from remanufacture with 9A98 injectors. We left off the throttle advance. I drive it easy but I never lack power.
Yes gents, the loss of power issue has been a long running problem for us since we ran a partial tank of we'll filtered (extremely clean using a professional grade centrifuge) motor oil diesel mix. Cliff told me way back then I probably toasted my injectors. Coach runs like a champ in all other ways, just lost some of its top end power. Everything else has been checked. Everything. Tank was polished, fuel lines blown clear, fuel hoses replaced, fuel filters changed three times. New air filter, turbo checked and was fine. Throttle cable adjustments made, fuel lever checked. No smoke at all. Like zero smoke even under full throttle. Used to have a little tiny bit of black smoke under full throttle but not anymore. Been averaging 7mpg which is more than usual. Coach definitely starving for fuel. Injectors and rack run should solve issue. It's reaching 2250 no load rpm and fuel pressure has been checked and is fine. Anyway, wwwilliams should know today what my issues are. Again, coach starts and runs perfect, just a little low on power.
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The difference between driving the 8V-71 with no turbo and N65's compared to driving with 7G75's and turbo is drastic. Without the turbo, pretty much drive with the foot on the floor. With the turbo, I rarely (even going up hills) have my foot on the floor. Mostly just about 1" of pedal to get going (it shifts around 1700) and a little more to get on the freeway. As said before, it is nice to have more than enough power for passing at times. Good Luck, TomC
I hope you get lucky and it is only the air gap on the governor ? I thought the other Scott was going to check it for you and now I see you are at the Golden Palace
I like WW Williams they give the young x Arm Forces people at shot at showing their skills on a 2 stroke
Joe might have it there, leaking air feeds on the output side of the turbo can be as bad as a stuffed up fuel filter, start checking the little things they add up fast. ???
turbo piping leaks leads to lots of black smoke most of the time
Turbo leaks may not lead to lots of black smoke Clifford if not enough fuel is getting there to make smoke. Would it?
With the additional info, I now think plugged injectors.
I have dealt with collapsed fuel filters before that gave the same indications.
I would never put motor oil, ATF or anything else in my fuel except heat if I could only get #2.
Watch me stir the pot. I love Willie, but I thinki Bio Diesel is kumbaya. YOMD
It is very easy to go down the wrong path if enough information isn't given in the original post.
Joe, when I worked in exploration out on Pet 4, we stockpiled fuel in Peard Bay, we transported it in 2-3000 gallon lots around the fields to drill sites, we had lotsa Detroits. Story short we added 55 gallons of ATF or Hyd Fluid to each 2000 gallons, the DD injectors thanked us. hauling it cross country mixed it well.
the right stuff doesn't hurt.
Don,
I've seen a lot of that. And more.
Those guys didn't have to pay for repairs, I do.
We had an Eagle at Ft Richardson with a natural 8V71. I asked the depot guys to adjust the ride and fix some leaks. They installed a complete new gasket set and 15/40 oil. I told them we shouldn't do that. They showed me all the 2 stroke Detroits, (mostly 8V92TT), they had on the floor and said That's all we ever use. The Army no longer has 40Wt. We never had any problems but I use 40Wt in my 8V92TA.
I would have liked one of the 1200hp 92's they showed me but it wouldn't fit in my Eagle.
HEMMTs are 8V92s!
The PO hot-roded the 6V92 in my Bluebird. It smokes like a freight train on startup. So bad you can't see the back of the bus. I would try to stick to something close to stock.
TOM
You install 9G90 injectors in a pre 1985 6v92 because of the cams those puppies will smoke lol you want see smoke install a set of 9G90 in a 92 series with the CA cams set at 1.460
Joe, do I know you... :) I worked in the depot maintenance shop on Ft Rich in the early 70's were you there then, what outfit were you with ? heck i can't even remember mine today... I ets'd out to Evans engine in anchorage.
Quote from: akroyaleagle on October 10, 2014, 10:18:32 PM
Don,
I've seen a lot of that. And more.
Those guys didn't have to pay for repairs, I do.
We had an Eagle at Ft Richardson with a natural 8V71. I asked the depot guys to adjust the ride and fix some leaks. They installed a complete new gasket set and 15/40 oil. I told them we shouldn't do that. They showed me all the 2 stroke Detroits, (mostly 8V92TT), they had on the floor and said That's all we ever use. The Army no longer has 40Wt. We never had any problems but I use 40Wt in my 8V92TA.
I would have liked one of the 1200hp 92's they showed me but it wouldn't fit in my Eagle.
HEMMTs are 8V92s!
Joe, do I know you... I worked in the depot maintenance shop on Ft Rich in the early 70's were you there then, what outfit were you with ? heck i can't even remember mine today... I ets'd out to Evans engine in anchorage.
I was not at Ft Rich then, I was still protecting us from I don't know what in SEA.
When I lived in Alaska from '89, I flew commercially.
I got bored in 2004 and took a job managing the Army Commercial motor pool. All my trucks, buses, and cars were ordered off the shelf through GSA. All maintenance was contracted off base. I drew the Eagle from property disposal when it was turned in by Elmendorf AFB band. It was considered a military vehicle, GSA had nothing to do with it. That's why I had to get the Depot guys to perform the maintenance. I had no mechanics, only drivers.
is that the Eagle you have now ?
In 1984 I went to Shemya and worked as WL-10, running the Airport Vehicle Maintenance Snow Removal Support Operations until 1989.
Prior to that I worked for RCA/OMS as Lead transportation At Tin City for too long...
No, that Eagle was ex Air Force. I got it for the motor pool in '05.
Mine was a Hanford bus. I got it in '96.
Well, yeah, the bus will run good on black diesel...but there is so much suspended carbon in the motor oil that I think it dirties the injectors. Hopefully they will tell me monday. Scott Crosby has been very helpful but I waited too long to get him on board and he's swamped right now. I leave for a 3000 mile trip over the course of a month so I need to get this beast running good again. We have an intense schedule coming up. Since we are full timers we are staying with friends at the moment and I hate living out of a suitcase
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Scott - Angie said just leave a month early and we will see you when you get here :). Praying for you all!
-Sean
Wandering the country in a 1984 Eagle 10S.
www.herdofturtles.org (http://www.herdofturtles.org)
:) don't worry, if we have to, we will push the bus with the truck just to see you guys again for a decent length of time for once!
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So what was the diagnosis?
Hi Scott, haven't heard a peep from them yet and we dropped the bus off last Wednesday. I think a week and a half is plenty of time to at least tell me what the diagnosis is. I'll call them today and see if they have any updates.
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Picked up the coach today. Drove it home. Had trouble keeping it under 75 mph....yep. You can stop rubbing your eyes...I did say I had trouble keeping it UNDER 75 mph. She's fixed. $485 later, our bus has plenty of power and has after two years finally returned to her normal self. Funny thing, all it was, was the fuel filters. They were plugged with algae. I changed them three times...but apparently the bus would prefer if WW Williams changes them because this time, it fixed our issue. They test drove the coach, and it's running like a champ. No issues whatsoever. And like I said, I'm passing trucks again. Towing our 6000 lb. Land Cruiser and with 800 pounds of freshwater on board too. I'll be qualifying this year for the Arcadia bus drags. Sean Shanks and I will be pitting his Eagle against our MCI. I'll win. I'm that confident. To all of you who helped me figure this issue out over the past year, I apologize for what seems like a silly fix, but I can promise you, I changed the fuel filters and didn't fix the issue. But they changed them, and all of the sudden it's fixed. Weird. But I'm happy. I now say goodbye to my 7mpg I was getting. Will change the second radiator this weekend (it's leaking now) and I'll have a couple new rads, new fuel filters, and coach will be ready for our 3000 mile journey from Michigan to Florida to Texas for the winter. Except, our generator just pooped today. So, will be shopping for a replacement. :-\
No offense but Williams probably used the right micron filters
lol. I'm thinking I didn't. That would explain everything. But in my defense, NAPA misled me. :-/
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well...what part did Napa sell you ?
What part number did WW Williams sell you ?
Inquiring minds need to know :D ??? ;D
Quote from: Scott Bennett on October 21, 2014, 03:13:46 PM
lol. I'm thinking I didn't. That would explain everything. But in my defense, NAPA misled me. :-/
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Since I bought the original filters two years ago I can't remember what Napa sold me. I know some of you guys swear by them but in my travels I have confidently misled by them more than once on getting parts for my coach.
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used them in the oil field forever, Wix makes them i am told.
for DD'S also.
what part # from Williams ?
Waiting for a call back from Williams. Asked them what the part number was. Anyone know what the primary and secondary micron ratings are?
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Scott-
I'm guessing you may have purposely bought filters with a smaller gap because you were running motor oil.
-Sean
Wandering the country in a 1984 Eagle 10S.
www.herdofturtles.org (http://www.herdofturtles.org)
At that time I wasn't running the oil, but I was prefiltering the oil with different filters but never purposefully installed small micron filters in the xoacj
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Coach
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Scott there 7 micron rating for the primary on the engine it starts at 30 micron and goes down, same with the secondary they have 6 micron ratings and start at 12 microns and go down
I run into the problem some times when NAPA here sells people the 5 micron filter for the secondary they last about 2 days ;D
I actually remember them selling me a 5 micron. And I thought those were only for cats???? That was my issue.
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Ok, as requested part numbers for the filters WWWilliams installed:
DN 23530707 Seconday
DN 23530706 Primary
Donaldson Detroit