We're out with bus and a few friends and family to play Bluegrass gospel music this weekend in central PA. Apparently our alternator is bad. We've made it to a heavy truck repair shop near our destination. The owner is an old friend. I'm waiting for his mechanic to arrive and check charging system.
We'll probably send our passengers home in a rental car after our last performance Sunday. DW and I will then have no time pressure. Problem is that this shop has no experience with 24v, oil cooled alternators. It would help if I can find a source or a rebuilder. We're about 45 minutes NW of Harrisburg. I can borrow a car and travel any reasonable distance. Any suggestions?
Jim,
Byron Hassinger, of Hassinger Diesel in Middleburg, PA is a 2 stroke expert. If he would probably know where to get it fixed, and might even have a good one laying around. His number is (570) 837-3412
Are you in Lewistown?
Steve Toomey
PAbusnut
Hey Steve,
Thanks for replying. We're near McCalisterville.
Our engine is a 40 series DD. Alternator is belt drive. I'll check with your connection for leads. My friend's mechanics are good, but this is out of their experience.
Do you know if that shop is open on Saturday?
Jim,
Do you have the huge old 24V alternator that weighs like 75lbs? I forgot what it is called, but we always carry a spare. Most shops don't stock them.
I would start calling all of the bus charter's in the area. They will often have one on the shelf. It might set you back $500. The other option is to call them, and ask where they suggest getting it rebuilt. They will often tell you where they take theirs, or have an idea for you.
Best of luck,
John
Jim, you're not that far from the Museum of Bus Transportation in Hershey. A lot of the volunteers are in the bus industry, a moderate number are local to Harrisburg (the President works at the Harrisburg transit system, another Board Member is a PennDOT official. Someone there may have suggestions.
I don't know if you'll get an answer, or have to leave a message, but the phone number is (717) 566-7100 ext. 119 http://www.busmuseum.org/Bus_Museum/Contact_Us.html (http://www.busmuseum.org/Bus_Museum/Contact_Us.html)
Arthur
Thanks everyone for your input. We're charging batteries now to get her into the shop.
I suspect that we have a Delco 50 DN belt drive version.
I suspect that we have a Delco 50 DN belt drive version.
Which if you are not running Coach AC or other large electrical loads, can be replaced with any large air cooled alternator....permanently or temporarily.
If it is the 50DN it may be as simple as a regulator issue, external regulator. There are a number of tests that can be done to see what is wrong. Step one is probably to take the belt off and evaluated the bearings. Realistically, if it spins free it's probably external to the alternator itself, or possibly a diode (which can be changed easily once you get one).
Brian
Jim,
I just looked on the map---Byron is only 22 miles away from McAllisterville.
Steve
Thanks, Donald. I did not know that.
Apparently alternator is putting out something. With engine running, we read 15.7v at one battery but only 12.3 at the other. This bus has a Vanner. Could that be an issue? I thought the headlights seemed weak the night before we had trouble.
The alternator is whining and leaking oil.
Alternator is putting out 28.4v in spite of leak and whine. Any other thoughts on why batteries are going down?
Donald - or anyone - can you recommend a replacement air cooled alternator that would not be a lot of trouble to adapt to the serpentine drive? I'm going to replace alternator regardless.
Jim,
I am not an electrical expert, but I'm thinking that if your batteries are in series, I would have the one that is reading 12.3 checked out. It could have a bad cell pulling down the whole system. Also check the main ground to the frame. I pull mine about 1x per year and clean it and put that corrosion prevention "stuff" on.
Steve
this would be the time to clean the terminals, individually load test the batteries, re-install, bypass the vanner and re-assess....
a new alternator would be one with the same footprint. voltage and shaft size. beyond that i have no idea.
You have a bad battery, the one with 12.3 volts has certainly lost a cell. The Vanner may be toast as well, it would be trying it's best to keep them equal. I would probably start with two new batteries, and see if they charge equally. Happened to me on my last long trip, I bought two gp 31's at a roadside truck store. I was in the position of being able to run off my house batteries in the meantime.
Brian
Brian
realize also that any substitution will require fabriation of mounting and adjustment facility...
a bearing and seal kit is $50.00
http://delcoremy.com/documents/electrical-specifications---selection-guide.aspx (http://delcoremy.com/documents/electrical-specifications---selection-guide.aspx)
Vanners are always a problem check the breaker it should be on the ground
Yup. Delco DN50 is what we have, and what I was talking about. I would get it rebuilt, if you have the time, and if there is a shop nearby.
We were going to swap ours out for a smaller one, but decided against it. It looked like a lot of work to reroute the belts, and make some other solution work. Yes it is an overkill, but it doesn't bother me.
It does sound like one of your batts is shot. I would have them load test each of them, individually.
Hope you get it fixed.
John
McCoysville should be close. Crawfords did bus conversion repairs there for many years. It hink it is run by Wayne now that Sam passed away many years ago. Had our 4104 worked on there many times over the years..
Even if he has a bad battery it should not effect his headlights if the alternator is doing it's job,do those low floors draw from the Vanner for headlights ?
McCoysville is 23 miles from McAllisterville via Rt35 and Rt35s.
I've always had great success with Kirk's in Detroit for parts to repair/rebuilding mine! here are a few links to check out also.
http://www.kirksauto.com/home.cfm?CFID=2794998&CFTOKEN=91954233 (http://www.kirksauto.com/home.cfm?CFID=2794998&CFTOKEN=91954233)
http://delcoremy.com/alternator-models/50-dn-heavy-duty-transit-coach-alternator.aspx (http://delcoremy.com/alternator-models/50-dn-heavy-duty-transit-coach-alternator.aspx)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/KA350HIPRO-50DN-Air-Cooled-Alternator-350-Amp-FREE-FREIGHT-/150842923742?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item231ef05ade&vxp=mtr (http://www.ebay.com/itm/KA350HIPRO-50DN-Air-Cooled-Alternator-350-Amp-FREE-FREIGHT-/150842923742?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item231ef05ade&vxp=mtr)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/50-DN-Alternator-Oil-Seal-Plate-Kit-K-5015-Kirks-/160376081057?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item255728caa1&vxp=mtr (http://www.ebay.com/itm/50-DN-Alternator-Oil-Seal-Plate-Kit-K-5015-Kirks-/160376081057?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item255728caa1&vxp=mtr)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/10459123-50DN-Belt-Drive-Alternator-Replaces-Remy-8600191-FREE-FREIGHT-/161228545178?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item2589f85c9a&vxp=mtr (http://www.ebay.com/itm/10459123-50DN-Belt-Drive-Alternator-Replaces-Remy-8600191-FREE-FREIGHT-/161228545178?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item2589f85c9a&vxp=mtr)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Kirks-K-5018-50DN-Retrofit-Front-End-Kit-Replaces-Press-In-Seal-Type-Frame-/160836682906?pt=Other_Vehicle_Parts&hash=item25729d049a&vxp=mtr (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Kirks-K-5018-50DN-Retrofit-Front-End-Kit-Replaces-Press-In-Seal-Type-Frame-/160836682906?pt=Other_Vehicle_Parts&hash=item25729d049a&vxp=mtr)
;D BK ;D
I'm finally back to an internet connection and some head space after our music performances.
The batteries are being charged this weekend. It's Sunday night. Tomorrow we will load test batteries and clean/reinstall grounds. I'll be surprised if we don't find that the weak one is bad.
The first thing I plan to do after the test is pull the alternator and find a rebuild shop that can handle it. I have access to a car and can take whatever time we need.
I believe the lights, engine management and transmission management all run off the Vanner. Does anyone know its test procedures? I'm sure I'll be back with questions Monday morning as we get into it.
Darryl, I've not had phone service. I'll contact you Monday morning.
I'm still puzzled about this since the alternator is putting out up to specs, but then electrical stuff is always fun. If you think of anything I'm missing, please make it known. Again, thanks for all input.
Just visited the bus and picked up the manuals. My current thinking (pun intended) is that it would be good if I can find an automotive electric shop that is familiar with heavy duty vehicles and take the bus there for diagnostics. With the batteries charged, I can drive a considerable distance in daylight. I'll be researching shops in Harrisburg and surrounding area. I'll also check with the diesel shop in Middleburg in the morning.
Best of luck, Jim!
http://delcoremy.com/Distributor-Locator.aspx (http://delcoremy.com/Distributor-Locator.aspx)
http://www.penncvs.com/request-services/ (http://www.penncvs.com/request-services/)
;D with the multiplex wiring on that bus I don't know if I would take it to a shop or not, education can get expensive
If you have a generator, hook up a battery charger, drive the bus home and let the guys you trust work on it.
It sounds like a bad battery to me also. Can you just take that battery out of the system?
Personally, I would get it home and have the DN50 checked out.
Good luck and don't let the smoke out of anything!
On the advice of a list member, I have reason to suspect my Vanner unit. How much do those cost, and where can I get one?
Seems like the Vanner is working if you have a 12.3 reading on one battery they pickup any thing below 12 v and try to equalize the batteries the purpose of Vanner is to draw the loads equal from the batteries I thought
I doubt your engine and transmission run through the Vanner
suspecting and knowing are very different.
Surely you would know before replacing.
I'm going to limp home with the help of a battery charger. There I can complete troubleshooting the issue. I've been in touch with someone experienced in Gillig electrics, and I'm following his advice.
Good a person does need experience on that system,now is the time for you to start locating a person that is up on the DT 466 engine you need it when the EGR takes out number 4 and 5 cylinders
I have one here now that is a weak point on that engine fwiw if you have the EGR
Made it back to home base Wednesday at noon. Rain forced us off road yesterday afternoon near Wytheville, VA. Ran a trickle charger overnight from our house system. Started fine this morning.
Going to Atlanta tomorrow to pick up a used Vanner and a good alternator. I'm thankful for the help of a list member who lives in that area.
Jim H
Quote from: Lostranger on October 08, 2014, 09:32:24 AMMade it back to home base Wednesday at noon. Rain forced us off road yesterday afternoon near Wytheville, VA. Ran a trickle charger overnight from our house system. Started fine this morning.
Going to Atlanta tomorrow to pick up a used Vanner and a good alternator. I'm thankful for the help of a list member who lives in that area.
Jim H
Good news! Drop by Charlotte again sometime!
Bad battery? I think the engine and trans do work from the vanner on that unit, ,? I had a shorted battery that pulled so hard on the alternator that it whined. Hope your fix is that easy. Inquiring minds would like to know.
Batteries both take full charge, but I've not yet load tested them. Alternator still putting out 28.1v, and the noise has quit since I got batteries charged. It's still leaking.
I drove to Atlanta yesterday and came back with good used alternator and Vanner which has not been tested. I'll know more in a few hours.
Jim H
Quote from: Homegrowndiesel on October 09, 2014, 09:59:31 PMBad battery? I think the engine and trans do work from the vanner on that unit, ,?
Yes, at least some Gillig buses are 24V for the charging system but the Electronic Control Modules (aka electronic computers) for the engine and transmission are 12V and run off the 12V supply from the Vanner. Therefore, no Vanner (or Vanner not working properly) means that engine or transmission doesn't work. I don't know if this applies to Jim's bus or not. The fact that he was able to charge the batteries with a non-engine-driven charger and successfully drive it should mean that the Vanner is working at least well enough to power the ECMs -- but maybe he's not 100% reliant on the Vanner anyway.
If I had to guess -- and it would only be a WAIG! -- I'd guess that it is a bad alternator that's making some power but power that's funky enough to throw off the function of the Vanner. My guess, changing the alternator will show him that the existing Vanner is OK, but it also wouldn't surprise me if maybe his existing Vanner was damaged by the poor power characteristics of the bad alternator so that it's only working marginally and he may have to replace it too.
But this is all guessing - Jim has the bus, the troubleshooting equipment, spare parts -- he'll run down the problems and let us know exactly how it turns out.
Still wishing you good luck, Jim!
Bruce H, NC USA
I hope he gets the problem solved the ECM on the series 40 is a complicated little item like Bruce I don't see it running if the Vanner is bad if it is run through the Vanner on his year model the ECM controls the intake and exhaust valves
All is resolved. It was a bad Vanner. I'm posting details under the trip section of this BB. My thread is called Music Weekend in PA.
Thanks to all of you who offered helpful information and encouragement. Thanks to the rest of you for your participation.
I especially appreciate the post on testing a Vanner without an ammeter.
Click over to the trip section to read details if you're interested.
Jim H
The inside of a Vanner is basically a switching power supply that runs off of the 24 volt input, an autotransformer to create the half-voltage output and a precision pair of resistors to create a voltage divider that controls the output voltage at 50% of the input. It puts out sufficient current on the 12V leg to force the batteries to be at an equal voltage. If it doesn't need to put out any current, it doesn't draw any current at the 24 volt input. If it does need to put out current it pulls it in at 24 volts and puts it out at 12 volts. That is how they get their "series-parallel" effect on the batteries. The two 12v batteries are obviously in series to create the 24 volt pair, but they both supply power to the 12v terminal as if they were in parallel.
If you have a failing battery and the Vanner is connected, if it's the low side of the pair (the 0 - 12v battery) the Vanner will kill both batteries trying to keep it up to 50% of the pair's voltage, whatever that is.
Brian