I am considering, under wifely influence, a run from Nova Scotia to Daytona beach in late January for the 24 hour race. That is when it's cold up here, figure 0 degrees F at night at least. It will take me at least two nights stopping to get anywhere above freezing at night. Night stops will have to be at truck stops, there are no camp grounds open up here at all. My 8V-71T is a hard starter when cold, but I've started it at freezing temps with a sniff of starting spray and no pre-heat, and I do have a generator and a block heater. Am I stupid to even think about this? I have all-position tires (Firestone FS-560 Plus) which are tending towards more of a steer tire than a traction tire. Would I need to change the drives to traction tires? It's been over 35 years since I drove a bus in snow, it was a front engine school bus and I was invincible and all-powerful being 20 years old, so that experience probably doesn't count.
Thanks for your thoughts, Brian
Good batteries and a block heater or pan heater for a couple of hrs she will fire,fwiw all A timed 8v71's are hard to start in the cold the low compression pistons used in the turbo engines only makes it a little more hard starting go for enjoy the weather ;D
We owned a 2 stroke in western NY for 10 years. We did most of our travel in the winter. A few hours with the block heater and the coach started right up. I let it run on high idle until the temp gauge came off the peg.
The only time I was concerned about an overnight was in WV when we stopped for the night and it was minus 21. By morning it had dropped to minus 26. I did not turn off the engine that night because I did not want to risk not starting in the morning.
Enjoy your trip.
If your stopping at truck stops for the night then there is no problem. Run the generator all night, this way you can keep the batteries hot, run the block heater all night, run your coach furnace for internal heat, and be ready to go in the morning with the least hassle. ( truck stops don't mind a generator running).>>>Dan
Brian i dont think its crazy but then again im used to severe winter operation what you need for sure is
Good traction tires on the drive axle , set of single chains . that way u could use on the steering axle if need be .
I would stick with SAE 40 i use SAE 30 in the winter but i'm dealing with -40 -45 continually
High out put block heater .... i've seen those pan heaters boil oil i don't use them ..... If your engine is serviced and running properly it will start effortlessly at -50 with SAE 30 .
I'm not a believer in engine idle especially a 2 stroke detroit best to shut down plug in ... u can easly kill a detroit idling in the winter if you need to keep running watch your engine temperature it needs to run at at least 180 maybe the high idle isn't enough i use a flat head screw driver under the foot pedal adjust RPM accordingly ....... minus -20 and below i block of the rads with a piece of plywood to stop all cold air coming into engine .
Keep close eye on the engine temp and adjust accordingly .
Service your air dryer......... drain air tanks and suspension filter after shut down ........ install a alcohol evaporator about 100.00 at Napa and use brake saver before u start up engine refill evaporator . My way might not be the right way but it works for us
I run lug tires on my duals, year round. I like em. I've been through blizzards on Wyoming, ice storms in the midwest, and temps down to -10°F at nights. No problems.
I have a preheat system in my AquaHot, though, that makes my DD nice and toasty.
For you, run the generator for a couple hours with the block heater plugged in. Get the engine temp above 45°F and it should fire up with no problems.
Those little magnetic heaters won't boil the oil in a few hours it is just enough to heat the oil a little,now the 1 that screws into the pan is a different ball game.
I wouldn't idle it over night they are hard to keep up the 170 min degrees even with fast idle unless you have the fully closed thermostats and it has been a long time since I last saw a set of those
Thoze magnetic heaters are probably okay , used one to start a car once .
In the old days when Grampa had to start the crawler in order to feed the cattle. (too cold and snow to deep to use the trucks) he would take the charcoal fire it up in the bottom of a cut off 50 gallon drum and slide it under the crawler with a canvas tarp over the engine. Heat was kept inside and there was no open flame. Not ideal, but it worked. Modern options would include one of the propane catalytic heaters and a larger bottle that will run the heater all night. Might still want to put a tarp over the engine or bus to keep the heat concentrated. Just think of it as putting the bus in tent to camp at night.
my wife and I leave for florida on dec. 26 at 6 am each year . coldest it has been was- 25 f when we left . I set a timer for 2 am to turn on the block heater ,after it starts I turn on the fast idle until we leave 1/2 hour or so . I have louvers that stay closed until 160 f. so it helps to warm up the eng. but after we are on the road for a hour or so the temp. is at 180 f .we have infloor heat so after it heats up it stays warm for a long time . when we pull over for the 1st night ( I try for north carolina ) 10 pm every thing in the bus is warm 76 f . I have a propane furnace but do not usually us it as when we get up at 6.00 it is about 55-60 f in side at the front and it has been as cold as -15 f out side . I start the eng. with no problem as it is still warm from the drive the day before . I do all the driving and I stop every 3 hrs or so to walk the dog ( about 20 min. ) then back in the seat again . We make our meals in the coach and again stop for 20-30 min . 1st day I try to do 1200 - 1400 klm ( 14 hrs ) the 2 nd day we usually see temps in the 50-60 f by 12 noon . we have done this drive for 9 years with no problems . some years we have to drive through snow .worst was 6-9 " on I 79 in pennsyvania 1 lane .just keep driving by the time I went through west virginia I had 50 cars and trucks following me as my coach hardly moves a round at all in deep snow ( good thing I never had to do a panic stop ) . made it to florida by 10 am the next day as I did not pull over at night until after midnight . I have firestone fs 400 on all . go for it just try to get as far south as you can the 1st night
dave
What is this winter thing you speak of? I try to avoid seeing any of the wet white stuff like the plague. Winter in Central Florida is when the good sailing winds are here and when we wear a light jacket on those really cold days.
Brian - tires:
Are there any seriously steep mountain passes you need to run? I haven't been up in the New England states, so don't know what is on your route. However, I run Toyo steer tires on my drive axle. They have almost 80,000 miles on them. I have driven through a lot of snow both in the midwest and out west in the mountains. The weight of the bus is a blessing in that it gives you extra traction (just don't start slipping/sliding!). I have driven up mountain passes in the west through several inches of snow. I just go slow up and very slow down. Gravity works in your favor going up hill if you need to slow down. Gravity works against you going downhill and only tries to speed you up more. Therefore, extra slow downhill is the only way when the roads are icy or snowy. I found that a 6% grade required 15mph to feel safe and be able to stop if need be. So - back to the tires - if you have steer tires on your drive axle and don't need to replace them, then don't. Just recognize you need to watch your speed and remember you have less traction than with studded drive tires. If you need new ones then the decision might be easier for you.
When I had my 6v92 I found that it would start easily in the morning after 8 hours of being shut off. There was always enough residual heat that it would start without any coaxing without regard to the outside temperature. I did always have a can of ether along though "just in case"! If you have a generator or an inverter than it becomes easy to use an electric outlet timer and set the timer to turn on the block heater an hour or so before you need to start up.
So - long and short of it is - I don't think you are crazy at all. Plan for the cold, make sure your schedule would allow you to delay a day or two for bad weather to blow over and go for it!
2 stroke Detroits are used a lot in Alaska still because they perform so well in winter. If you're running the genset all night, just run an extension cord to the back and place a 300 watt halogen light aimed up at the oil pan. Keeps it warm enough to start. If you have a two lever governor, I always start mine from the rear when it is cold. The trick is to hold the stop lever in with your thumb, then start cranking the engine. Slowly let out the stop lever (in about a 10 second time) and the engine just comes up to idle. This is because the stop lever also retards the timing aiding in cold starts. Good Luck, TomC
When I was driving a truck I had a regular run from Virginia to PEI & Halifax, NS all winter. Had a 8V71 in a Diamond Reo. Never had a problem.
TOM
The wife's hair dryer stuff in the intake will start one in a hurry if you have no block heater fwiw
The advice that you've been given sounds right to me. And I'm thinking that you're pretty careful about water "anywhere it shouldn't be" anyway. If your plumbing pipes are insulated or inside the warm area, you don't have water in fuel, and there's no water in your brake system, that will eliminate many possible problems.
And I agree with Brian D -- run it for 10 hours and let it sit for 8 (even if cold temps) and the engine temp will be very different than if it sat outside for 4 days. That engine temp will make a difference in diesel ignition and also oil thickness, of course. Battery condition is critical, too and it helps a lot if they're in a place that can be kept warm.
As good as you are about your regular maintenance, and your technical understanding of what happens in the cold, I'm sure you'll be fine.
Nobody has said anything about the snow itself. In the Seattle area i have seen, (very rarely) snow that was "dry", that crunched when you walked or drove on it. Traction and stopping was no problem, it was almost like driving on bare pavement. You had a hard time making a snow ball as it would not pack together. Usually however, the snow there is a wet snow, so traction and stopping is a whole "nother" ball game.....sometimes you will slide a little, sometimes you will slide a lot. You go to make a snowball and it packs quickly and a little water comes out of it. Sometimes the water will just pour out of it as you pack it. One time on flat ground i made it a block in a vw bug before i turned around and went home....had no traction, and those things are usually good in the snow.
Ran Bridgestone 227's on the drivers and the bogie, Anchorage to Arizona.....no chains needed....but i did run the engine for 2-3 days and the gen too...in October-November.
I have seen been part of keeping Detroit's of every size and flavor burning diesel ALL winter October to April, in the oil patches/pipelines of Alaska, believe me they can take it.
They can take it all right ... as long as there running at 180 degrees and the oil pressure is up many winters back we had a small service contract to open a winter road across the lakes into a mine site purchased a new rebuilt 6v92t for our 650 champion grader installed also a V plow and a escape hatch cut into the roof all done at a reputable dealer in Hay river . The boys brought it back in the middle of the night told them to idle it up to at least 1400 RPM and tarp it in Long story short they didn't idle it up the engine slobber it self to death by 10 am the next morning the engine was junk . My 8V92T will run for ever at -50 below at 1400 RPM but will it ever burn a hole in your pocket .
the oil patch....the oil companies pick up the tab...no one has a fatter wallet... :o
but i have never seen a dd die a slobbered death quite so quickly....
I was pretty shocked my self , it was bitter cold -45 or so plus windchill good thing it was under warranty i guess it was just to much for it to handle during break in
Well I just wish Brian would straightened out the header,lol your parts will be picked up later today Brian watch them they are from the AZ heat and may not like the cold ::)
Hoo Rah! They will like the cold just fine I think. Leaving tomorrow for a short trip to Gaspe Quebec where my forefather landed from England in the 1770's, a long time ago. What shipper did you use?
Brian
FEDX ground
I was in Wisconsin over night where it got down to -20F without wind. In the morning, it was a real chore getting the 8V-92TA to light up. I tilted the cab (days of cabovers) and squirted ether directly into the blower through a screw plug. After a couple of tries, it continued to run. My only savings was I had put Diesel Fuel treatment in so the fuel did not gel. That was the last time I ever was in cold weather and not leaving my engine run on fast idle all night. Good Luck, TomC
#1 does not gel...
We've left home lots of times at -30 or worse and returned to the same $#!%. I find that battery heaters are equally important as block heaters, in fact maybe more so within reason. Batteries lose a huge percentage of their CCA at lower temperatures - I think over half at -30 if memory serves. Rule 1 for winter starting is "always park it with the noisy end closest to the door". That way you can bring the big guns to bear if you need to. I never bothered with light weight oil - I just accepted that it was going to take extra heat to get things loosened up for the first start. If you're running late and leaving early there will still be a lot of heat left in the block when you fire up in the morning unless you are parking at -40 with a howling wind blowing. I don't use ether - mag heaters, block heaters, battery blankets and in extreme situations a tiger torch stuck in a pipe with a 45 elbow on the end under the oil pan will always get them going. Keep the batteries on charge right up to departure time too - that helps keep them warm.
If its super cold and windy where you park you can always get up at 0-dark-30 before the block loses all its heat and fire it up for a half hour. But on that coast you don't really know from cold - you'll be fine.
I do not want to shoot down your bus trip but if you are apprehensive about making the trip you might want to consider going on the airline and renting a car and staying in a nice motel. You can generally go to Orlando pretty cheaply and cars are easy to get there. However you go, bus or not you will probably have to stay 30 miles outside of Daytona. Florida is a zoo that time of year what with the football game in Jacksonville and bike week and speed week all about the same time. You might come out cheaper and more relaxed this way and your wife will probably like it too. Just an thought.
My company uses lots of 60 series detroits and C-13 cats, in the winter and when there is no place to plug them in, they run all night, sometimes at 50 below. We no longer use 2 strokes for any coaches. All the new Prevost coaches come with Volvo engines. Don't know how they handle the cold......Bill
+1 on Bob's tiger torch/ weed burner we call them and some stove pipe and a 90 works everytime.
Something no one has touched on... Do not use the jakes/retarder on a snowy descent. Also do not use a cruise control in slick conditions. I prefer not to use either even in the rain. Do your self a favor and practice installing the chains in the comfort of your driveway now. Chaining sucks no matter how good/fast you are.
Don
Also... I once parked on a slight incline in icy conditions, set the brake and started walking. The bus just started sliding... use chocks in addition to the park brake. If driving in wet conditions and then the temp changes to below freezing, I "lightly drag" the brakes to dry them out before parking and setting the park/air brake.
Don
Head for warmer weather BEFORE the snow 😊
We headed south in the bus during a storm that quickly turned into a blizzard. I had previously installed an air dryer as a preventative measure, and also had the 80,000btu Webasto plumbed for interior heat, plus pre-heating the engine on cold days.
We somehow managed to 'inhale' a bit of moisture which froze up the air system just north of Herried, South Dakota. We spent the night in a heated farm repair business shop (Huber and Son) to thaw out. I added some alcohol to the air system (plus took on some myself!) and we left the next morning. Following that, I added an alcohol kit after the air dryer. Kind of a belt PLUS suspenders thing.
I have grip tires on the drive and tag. Drove on some real crap roads at times, and the weight of the bus on the drives makes a big difference.
I use 40W year round, and a snort of ether only when the engine first starts for the day. If I preheat the engine with the Webasto for about 30-45 minutes even at -30, it's almost at operating temp and will light right off.
Go for it, use common sense and if the roads are not the best, slow down a bit. Better late than never.
I have a few systems to keep the engine and interior warm in winter travel--
1. Stopping at a campground with 50 amp service:
Plug in to 50 amps.
Plug in the 240v/60 gallon coolant heater.
Plug in the stand alone 24v Webasto circulating pump.
OR run the Webasto 45k engine and interior heater.
2. Stopping with 30 amp service
(or 120v cord to friendy place):
Plug into 30 amp/120v service.
Start Webasto for engine and interior heat.
3. Stopping with no nothing:
Run the generator.
Run the Webasto to heat the interior and engine.
The only problems I have ever had is when the Webasto wants to be a bitch and stops working.
--Geoff
I should add that my Bendix AD-9 air dryer has a 12v heater with a freeze temperature sensor, so no frozen air lines.
So far my winter travel has been limited to going from Yuma to Quartzsite for the GM bus rally......haven't hit snow on the trip there and back yet, which is a good thing since i don't own chains! ;D
A lot of good stuff here. There is a lot of talk about running, engines, generators, and diesel heaters while you sleep. Make sure that you have a working carbon monoxide (CO) detector in your coach. It's more important for you to wake up in the morning than the old Detroit!