Yesterday I pulled into the new Loves at Barstow, Ca, fueled up, and then pulled around back to park briefly after I was done so I could get some food, suddenly finding myself in the midst of a lot of police and related officials...
I noticed (not difficult) that there was at least one CHP officer and two DOT guys with a car full of equipment and computer stuff, busy giving 2-3 truckers tickets, a few hoods open, some equipment doing engine tests, etc.
What I though was, "geez, these guys are hiding here on private property trapping truckers and for that matter probably anyone, who they deem suspicious, and giving them tickets... is that legal?"
I asked the Loves teller and she said, 'yeah we know, but we don't know what they are actually doing... might be registration, might be idling too long, might be anything"
Listening to the CB as we pulled out, it was alive with "don't stop at Loves, the CHP and DOT are there trapping everyone"
Now it seems to me that what they were doing would certainly be legal on public property, like airports, parks, roads, etc, but on private property? Clearly they were costing Lowes a lot of money because anyone listening to their CB would avoid going there.... and what WERE they doing? Anyone have insight?? Sure seemed creepy and even though I'm current with everything and as far as I know totally legal in every respect, I left as soon as I could....
Cheers
"Anyone have insight??"
Yes, stay out of California.
Anyplace there is a idling law they can come on private property then the fun begins I read that in a trucking magazine the truckers are up in arms about the law in some states Nev is bad also. Loves at exit 9 has a reputation about calling the law on the entertainer buses for fueling at the RV pumps sure they are breaking the law to save $.08 a gal but what business is it of Loves and what kind of markup could they have on $.08 that would hurt their bottom line
Don't kid yourself F/J,Pilot,TA,Loves and others allow it and know what going on
Here in AZ a trooper cannot even give a ticket on any county or city road he is limited to state highways only.The DOT is out in force here I seen dozens of trucks stopped on 95 lately the truckers trying to dodge CA and fall pray to the DOT in AZ
You ever notice it is the guy with one truck running the hiways to take care of his family at home they go after I have seen DOT pass a Swift truck and go for the little independent trucker someone a ticket just kills their income
Since we are not truckers, we nothing to worry about. At least here in California, old RV's are exempt from new smog laws. Good Luck, TomC
They still write the fix or repair tickets for to much smoke even being smog exempt they do in the Needles area people stop by to get a repair bill all the time
When we lived in Colorado they stopped them there also and always set up stops with scales set out on the side of the roads coming into Colorado springs and Denver. They would have a line of trucks and a trooper hiding back a ways on both side in case the truck would see them and try to turn around. They would go after them and ticket them for running and then rip them apart on an inspection. The wife would here it when they came through her scales at United where she was the GM and weigh master.
California will pull you over for to much smoke but a lot of states will now. They will also give you up to 1000.00 to buy your car if it can't pass the smog test but just on old junkers. Mostly near San Francisco area. They are all perfect over there, you know. LOL ;D
Dave
Quote from: boogiethecat on September 04, 2014, 11:52:30 AM
... is that legal?"
Why would you expect that cops would follow the law?
Quote from: gumpy on September 04, 2014, 07:50:49 PM
Why would you expect that cops would follow the law?
I'm sure they always follow the law and they never LIE either. :( :( ;D ;D ??? ???
John
Here in Az the trooper take a personalty test if you have one then you are out, we import our troopers from CA never met one yet that wasn't from LA but then our director is from LA also with a new governor elected this year hopefully he will be going home ::)
Have always heard about California folks, "Them that ain't NUTS are FRUITS", Always wondered about that comment, know it is not 100% true. Think mostly related to the government. ;D
Dave M
A friend just called he is vacationing in the Nashville area the Dot there is pulling buses into the Kroger parking lot in Hermitage Tenn
He said they kept him for 30 minutes to make sure he was indeed a RV not a entertainer with RV plates all the time looking around his bus on the outside
If we could just get rid of Governor Jerry Med-Fly maybe we'd have a chance, LOL will send him to AZ!......
Also remember most if not all of your Fruits, nuts, and Veggies come from Cali so be careful what you ask for, LOL ;D ;)
Dave
Please,please you keep him
If we are approached by "the law" looking to prove we are commercial there is no need to grant entry. I let them look in my bays and they can see all the stuff RVers use, not instruments, stage lighting, stage equipment, etc.
I point out the awnings, I point out the private license plates, the private coach plaques, and the toad.
That's about the same as he did Jon it's a shame the entertainers are using rv plates to save a few bucks it creates problem for the high end rv owners
Here they catch the entertainers buses all the time filling at Sam's at the RV pump to save a extra $.08 a gal it is a 1000 buck fine they saved maybe 20 bucks
As far as the legality of talking to someone on private property, generally, if that part of the property is open to the public then law enforcement is not required to get a warrant before they talk to folks. That is to say, The police have as much right to enter the parking lot or the mall as anyone else. If they observe something that constitutes a violation of the law then generally they also are not required to get a warrant before issuing a citation or making an arrest.
Well Thor, that does make sense, but why then do so many criminals hang out at Walmart?
Quote from: Lin on September 08, 2014, 05:55:12 PM
Well Thor, that does make sense, but why then do so many criminals hang out at Walmart?
Because they are getting off work ;D
Although one would think that to actually make an arrest and it being Private Property not Public that the owner of said Private Property would have to press charges. If they could prove that you had committed a crime or broken the law on public Property before coming onto said Private Property then they may be able to arrest you ::).
If a Wal-Martian had reported the crime then all bets would be off unless said space vehicle had landed and was still present in (1) air space above Public Property or (2)on Landing Pad at Wal Mart parking lot without awnings extended or your fines may double and your mileage may vary!...... ;D :o
I don't get what the difference between public and private property makes to illegal activity. It's (whatever "it" is) is equally against the law both places. Idling laws, bypassed emissions, duty time logs, daily inspection logs, safety issues all have to be up to date if you're working the truck. Unless there is something I am really missing here...
Brian
Hey Luvrbus,
Why is it illegal for a band troupe to buy fuel from Loves at the RV pump and, who collects and keeps the $1,000 fine?
Seems to me that would be a private issue between the entertainer coach and Loves. Surely,
AZ doesn't convey Loves the power to levy fines?
Quote from: garhawk on September 09, 2014, 05:38:26 AM
Hey Luvrbus,
Why is it illegal for a band troupe to buy fuel from Loves at the RV pump and, who collects and keeps the $1,000 fine?
Seems to me that would be a private issue between the entertainer coach and Loves. Surely,
AZ doesn't convey Loves the power to levy fines?
I was thinking the same thing. And I have never understood why the RV lane at Davis Truck stop about 25 miles south of Petersburg, VA is about 8 cents more than diesel at the truck islands.
Trucks, buses and commercial entertainment coaches pay a diesel use fee to the state based on mileage or time (trip permits). Loves does not collect the fine, the state does if they catch the offender.
Loves don't write the tickets the state does it is written on the rv pump who can fill at a rv pump,it would be like me in a rv fueling at a truck pump in Or to save the 25 cents a gal they levy on you for being a rv
The entertainers and tour groups buses AZ are watching now they probably spend more money enforcing that the 8 cents can generate so they hit the co's with fines paid before they move the bus or 18 wheeler to the local JP You are not to us the rv pumps if 3 axle and weigh more 26,000 but they don't enforce if you are a true rv
I tried to use the Pilot Flying J RV island once and damn near fell asleep waiting for the tank to get full because the nozzle was one of the small ones used to fill cars.
So I have used truck islands just because it takes far less time to fill. I don't know if I am paying more or less than the pumps on the car side of the place and really don't care. Nobody has ever questioned me when fueling. We did have a team of inspectors bang on the door at a factory outlet mall one time demanding to see all our paperwork, insurance cards, logs, etc. When I convinced them we were a motorhome they went away to the bus parked next to us. We were forced to park where buses parked by some mall security guard with a golf cart.
I don't know about the rest but before Pilot about all the F/J here had a satellite pump at the RV islands made filling faster if you had the dual fill on your bus
I stopped at the Flying J going over the Grapevine and fueled at the RV island as I've done many times before. I was surprised that they had pumped up the pressure so filling didn't take to long. Normally I have enough time to wash all my windows-not this time. Good Luck, TomC
Quote from: Dave5Cs on September 07, 2014, 11:04:49 AM
If we could just get rid of Governor Jerry Med-Fly maybe we'd have a chance, LOL will send him to AZ!......
Also remember most if not all of your Fruits, nuts, and Veggies come from Cali so be careful what you ask for, LOL ;D ;)
Dave
Dave when I hauled produce we could always tell if it was from CA or not by sucking on it.
If it sucked back it was from CA! :o
;D BK ;D
Guess a lot of us are familiar with "I'm sure they always follow the law and they never LIE either sure they always follow the law and they never LIE" :o
Have had such an experience, lucky I was able to prove the event was not my doing despite the to Va State Police lieing his butt off. Another sperience with a Pa State Police in another lie, caused me to walk 60 days. Would you be surprised if I do not trust cops at all ?
Dave M
::) they are the law
BK , Thank You for your Contribution!.....by the way if it Sucks back its not from the Valley its from SF!.....LOL
Dave
We all have a right to our own opinion. It does trouble me that there are some here are such cop haters. While I won't say that there are no bad or overly anxious cops out and about, there are not enough to make me lose sleep. I save my contempt for the criminal pukes since police often put their lives on the line to guard against them. To me people who have a problem with the police ARE the problem. Why is it so hard just to cooperate when interacting with police and not act like turd? Nobody likes to to get a ticket for anything so just make sure you don't get into a situation where you may get one in the first place. Think about who you vote for in regards to laws. California is what it is because people in mass vote the way they do.
I find if you show a little respect they do the same,seems to me like the state troopers have a little more class than the county and city officers though. Where I live the young county officers are jerks lol we have plenty of police here in the valley State,county,city and the Indians, the Indians have 1 side of 95 the county the other and the state both sides the city in the city limits only
Yeah the larger the population the more likely you'll find some not so nice officers. Considering what they must deal with, you can't blame some for being less than nice at all times but abuse is never acceptable. Some people mistake them for being on their guard for being jerks. I'm not a cop but I knew that there are those out there who may try to harm or kill me, I will not likely be overly nice either.
Nicely said CM Thought I was the only one. Now days it is pretty nasty out there. There was a bank robbery in Stockton a few months ago that an employee got taken on the way out of the bank and finally used as a shield against the police. By the time they got 1 out of 4 guys there were 72 shots into there cars (the Police) and the gang guys in a station wagon had 35 holes in it. Inside the car they found 200 rounds more in boxes and 6 AK-41's. When done there was 4 in the car killed including the young woman and one living ( the driver). 4 cops shot injured only but in hospital for awhile a 2 badly enough to not ever return to work. This is worse case but my point is these guys go to work at shift and don't know these days if they are coming home just like being at war. The little pay they get is not worth it.
A cop investigator friend of mine 6 years ago went to a house that had two sides to it and was going to take a report of a Deadbeat Dad from a wife on a statement so they could find out where he was hanging out. The guy next door was a drugy and was freaking out opened his door and shot and killed my buddy. He had 3 young kids and a wife and taught Sunday school. Just trying to help someone and her kids.
These days for every bad one there are 20 that need to be there. Just saying. Off soap box.
Dave5Cs
Quote from: CrabbyMilton on September 10, 2014, 03:53:28 AM
We all have a right to our own opinion. It does trouble me that there are some here are such cop haters. While I won't say that there are no bad or overly anxious cops out and about, there are not enough to make me lose sleep. I save my contempt for the criminal pukes since police often put their lives on the line to guard against them. To me people who have a problem with the police ARE the problem. Why is it so hard just to cooperate when interacting with police and not act like turd? Nobody likes to to get a ticket for anything so just make sure you don't get into a situation where you may get one in the first place. Think about who you vote for in regards to laws. California is what it is because people in mass vote the way they do.
I guess you've never had the pleasure of dealing with a corrupt lying SOB with a badge and gun who thinks he's above the law, or the courts who refuse to do anything about it even after he
admits under oath that he was breaking the law.
In my opinion, all cops are corrupt, or soon will be.
When I read about officers and it is a very small % that scare the hell out of young women and take advantage of the stop that one is sicking IMO that SOB should be hung and not put on leave with pay kinda like a paid vacation for not honoring your position
Well Gumpy I did say you have a right to a your opinion. I don't know what led up to your situation or the cops side of it but that doesn't make them all bad. I did say that abuse is never acceptable but that includes both sides.
Well .For all you die hard cop haters out there ,,next time you need help, IE someone robs your house ,assaults someone in your family .robs you, steals your stuff ,maybe you need to call someone else, maybe you'll get help for someone that is not a lying ,cheating SOB,, to help you ,,good luck
Quote from: bevans6 on September 09, 2014, 04:09:46 AM
I don't get what the difference between public and private property makes to illegal activity. It's (whatever "it" is) is equally against the law both places. Idling laws, bypassed emissions, duty time logs, daily inspection logs, safety issues all have to be up to date if you're working the truck. Unless there is something I am really missing here...
My understanding is police generally cannot issue citations for things such as expired registration in a private lot unless they saw you drive in. It seems silly because your registration was probably expired before you drove into the lot unless the car was there for a long time.
I have a lot of cop friends both active and retired they all will tell you some don't need to be in uniform with a badge and gun fwiw
Wait a second here. So if I use my bus converted to an RV that will have 90% of it's usage as a camping RV to drive to a gig I have to have a special plate and registration in some states? You have got to be kidding me. There is nothing like that as far as I know here in Florida.
Quote from: mung on September 10, 2014, 09:23:57 AM
Wait a second here. So if I use my bus converted to an RV that will have 90% of it's usage as a camping RV to drive to a gig I have to have a special plate and registration in some states? You have got to be kidding me. There is nothing like that as far as I know here in Florida.
I thought that is a rule in most states? Most states are calling motorhomes used to transport anything used to make money a commercial vehicle subject to the same regulations as a typical commercial vehicle. Even a motorhome pulling a trailer with a race vehicle in it is considered commercial if the race has a cash purse.
The use of a vehicle usually dictates the type of licensing that is required. It can get sticky making a determination as to how one should register their coach.
A traveling salesman that uses his personal car for business during the week likely does not have the car registered with commercial plates, and the same likely hold true for the coach. But I know of some coaches that are used for business, and the owner has gone so far as to have the name of his company on the side of the coach. That might be stretching it and asking for trouble.
I used all my coaches extensively for business purposes, but they were still our personal motor home and except for getting us and some displays to a trade show every week or so the coach was our personal home on the road and used just as much for our personal purposes as when used to take us and our trade show display to a show. But there was no signage on the coach or toad.
Quote from: mung on September 10, 2014, 09:23:57 AM
Wait a second here. So if I use my bus converted to an RV that will have 90% of it's usage as a camping RV to drive to a gig I have to have a special plate and registration in some states? You have got to be kidding me. There is nothing like that as far as I know here in Florida.
Yeah there is... Federal DOT trumps...
Quote from: belfert on September 10, 2014, 10:47:38 AM
I thought that is a rule in most states? Most states are calling motorhomes used to transport anything used to make money a commercial vehicle subject to the same regulations as a typical commercial vehicle. Even a motorhome pulling a trailer with a race vehicle in it is considered commercial if the race has a cash purse.
So my regular minivan is a commercial vehicle? Because I regularly transport my music gear in there. What about if I bring my laptop home from work in my car? I use it to make money at work.
I know that in Minnesota a typical passenger car licensed to a business or to an individual is basically the same. The only difference might be in the cost of insurance. No difference in type of license required to drive the vehicle.
Now, a motorhome is totally different if commercial or personal. Anybody can drive a personal motorhome (in most states) with just a regular old driver's license. A motorhome with a GVW over 26,000 lbs will be treated as a commercially vehicle if licensed commercially. Driver has to have a CDL and medical card. Vehicle must have a periodic DOT inspection. Hours of service apply. Air brake endorsement applies for vehicles with air brakes.
There are a whole host of reasons why many would rather have a motorhome as a personal vehicle instead of commercial. The day my bus conversion is treated the same as a commercial vehicle is probably the day it goes up for sale. I have no problem getting a CDL and medical certificate, but no way my friends will go through all that.
I guess retirees in their big diesel pushers have to be careful too, because if they carry their golf clubs in their motor home and play a for cash tournament, they are breaking the law.
Wait, is the rule that you can't get paid or that you can't make a profit? Because I sure don't make a profit when I play a gig.
Quote from: mung on September 10, 2014, 11:30:52 AM
So my regular minivan is a commercial vehicle? Because I regularly transport my music gear in there. What about if I bring my laptop home from work in my car? I use it to make money at work.
Notice I said motorhome, not a mini-van. A vehicle over 26,000 lbs GVW typically requires a CDL. The main exception is for motorhomes and other recreational vehicles. Government is saying that a motorhome over 26,000 lbs GVW no longer qualifies under the exception for recreational vehicles if it is used for commercial purposes.
Regardless,if you think this is right or wrong, it is what government agencies are doing. I won't put the name of our rocket group on the trailer we use as I don't want someone to think we are commercial. We are just a group of friends who like rockets and came up with a group name. We have no formal organization and don't do anything that makes money.
You can't get paid. The parents who buy a $100,000 motorhome with a $10,000 trailer to take their kid to go-cart races certainly aren't making a profit when the prize is $100 or $200. Government in some states considers racing for a cash prize to be a commercial venture, even if it is just a hobby for the racer.
I believe John316 here went fully commercial with his bus since he was using his bus to sell stuff.
Quote from: mung on September 10, 2014, 11:30:52 AM
So my regular minivan is a commercial vehicle? Because I regularly transport my music gear in there. What about if I bring my laptop home from work in my car? I use it to make money at work.
Well, maybe but probably not. In addition to the use of the vehicle, most states also have a weight requirement for a vehicle to be considered as a "commercial Vehicle" by definition. That also includes combination of truck and trailer, usually between 22k and 26k lbs and heavier. Also some passenger restrictions to 10 or more people for a bus. So a mini van might be used by a business but is probably not heavy enough or hold enough people to be a commercial vehicle by statute.
Everything I am reading says that it has to be involved in interstate commerce to fall into those regulations. So transporting my gear in the bus and showing up to a gig at a bar is not interstate commerce. Now one could argue that if I bring CDs and T-shirts across state lines that I am dealing in interstate commerce, so fine, I won't do that.
Within Florida I should be fine.
With the interstate commerce rules I can see why someone selling something would have to have a USDOT registration.
As most of you know I have actually been pulled over and had my bus in the MN DOT parking lot for over 6 hours a couple years back. Here is the truth plain and simple in MN: If you carry anything in or towed behind a vehicle that exceeds 26,000 lbs. with RV plates, that in any way has provided transportation to or from a destination in which you received anything that didn't accompany you before arrival, you can and will be charged with Tax Evasion for not having both commercial plates and insurance and a CDL. That means if you win or earn so much as a trophy for a go cart race or a self defense exhibition or are paid for a single CD, appearance fee, performance fee etc. they can and will cite you for tax evasion which is a felony. I know it's wrong, egregious, awful and unfair but it is the law and the law tends to win in court.
RB
Right, so make sure to spend that $100 you made before you leave the state.
It's also been the law for a very long time, decades in fact. I've heard of people getting dinged leaving circle track Saturday night races. Horse racing is another big one, particularly the amateur events where the kid wins a trophy. Not interstate, not even inter-county. Profit has zero to do with it. The car races I used to go to always gave exactly no prizes of any kind, for this reason. It's just a line you cross at your peril, that's the end of it. Automobiles are definitely treated differently, so many are used by salesmen, etc. I think the cross-over is 10K GVWR, but I really haven't looked into it in a long time.
Brian
Florida has an interesting take on the race stuff.
(25) "Commercial motor vehicle" means any vehicle which is not owned or operated by a governmental entity, which uses special fuel or motor fuel on the public highways, and which has a gross vehicle weight of 26,001 pounds or more, or has three or more axles regardless of weight, or is used in combination when the weight of such combination exceeds 26,001 pounds gross vehicle weight. A vehicle that occasionally transports personal property to and from a closed-course motorsport facility, as defined in s. 549.09(1)(a), is not a commercial motor vehicle if the use is not for profit and corporate sponsorship is not involved. As used in this subsection, the term "corporate sponsorship" means a payment, donation, gratuity, in-kind service, or other benefit provided to or derived by a person in relation to the underlying activity, other than the display of product or corporate names, logos, or other graphic information on the property being transported.
Calif states you can drive with a Class C license up to a 3 axle house car, no longer then 40ft and pull up to a 10,000lb trailer. Anything over 40ft, you need a Class B non commercial license. Any trailer over 10,000lb or fifth wheel over 15,000lb you need a Class A non commercial license. Good luck, TomC
DOT and the troopers can make your life miserable but what will really bite is if your insurer declines to pay a liability claim. Those of you who think you are smarter than the cops need to phone your insurance agent AND GET IT IN WRITING whether or not you are covered for whatever you are doing. The opinions of everyone here are just that -- opinions. They won't pay the bills if the stuff hits the fan. My experience has been that insurance companies are quick to cash my cheque and slow to pay out. Don't give them an easy way out.
Going back to another topic in this thread, we can blame the unions for bad cops keeping their jobs. Happens all the time, bad cop protected by his union, city/county/state not willing to take on that fight.
I thought the problem was teenage immigrant welfare mothers on drugs!
You mean "O" voters😊
So if someone Had a bus towing a Toad (Pickup truck) that carried some tubs of stuff to sell at a Flee market and a popup, but the Bus was not involved other than a place to sleep and eat over night, being it was a two day affair. The Bus was parked in the parking lot not in the Flee Market and the stuff was taken into the market in the truck and returned to the parking lot at night next to the Bus. They would have to have a CDL, comm Ins. etc.? Even though it was not their normal business?
Dave, I am not an authority on this but it appears that what we are being told is that, at least in some states if not the Feds also, they seem to interpret things as strictly yes or no without any nuance. I suppose that the officers involved feel that they merely give the citation and you can have your day in court if you disagree.
Unfortunately, the various governments are hungry for money, the officers are required to produce citations, and there are lots of legitimately commercial operators that will look for any sneaky loophole they can drive their truck/bus through to avoid the actual intent of the law. In an attempt to make the net of the law impenetrable, they weave it so tightly that we get can get stuck in it too. We are dolphin being caught with the tuna!
Keep in mind that the fed can only be involved if you cross state lines.
It used to be that policemen, inspectors, people involved in the registration of vehicles would always fall back to common sense, that appears to have been "trained or schooled" out of them by law makers that have in some cases no acquaintance with "common sense".
One thing that always amazes me, and is contrary to some of the preceding remarks, is how some people manage to to not get tickets or have issues with cops.
Far too many times I have witnessed folks driving their bus conversion / motor home / truck conversion down the road towing their 30 foot stacker trailer in the fast lane pushing slower vehicles out of the way by intimidation. Ray Charles would have been able to see the rig is exceeding just about every state limit on length, the driver is speeding and driving dangerously by tailgating to move slower drivers out of his way, and sometimes is talking on the phone.
Those are the drivers and vehicles that cops need to go after. Weigh them, do a full blown DOT inspection, and then issue tickets for not only vehicle defects, but write up the drivers for everything under the sun. Letting those fools go up the highway demonstrates to me that cops appear to look the other way far more than they should.
Dave,thank you for your comments.I am retired Phx.P.D. officer of 25 years and could tell a lot of stories of what we go through but I won't.No matter what I say will not change any ones opinion. Thanks for your support.
Don
Speaking of corrupt police:
http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/american-shakedown-police-won-t-charge-you-but-they-ll-grab-your-money-1.2760736 (http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/american-shakedown-police-won-t-charge-you-but-they-ll-grab-your-money-1.2760736)
JC
There are a few things at play here that I believe are at the root of the negative perception of law enforcement. Whenever an officer is citing you for a violation he is merely a tax collector. I am covinced that speeding citations are only a way to collect money for the state. It has nothing to do with safety. So when said officer is issuing a citation, you are pissed because because he and the state have their tax happy hands in your pocket.
On the other hand we should never forget that right after he plays taxman he may be sent on a call that places him in harms way, confrontation with an active shooter etc..
I think most people very much respect the one view while despising the other.
Jon I stepped off a entertainers bus at Sam's that had a 33 ft trailer without the tongue and 4 axles it was 81 ft long combined how do the do that buy a permit or what it was a Hemphill bus they don't break the law often I just was wondering how they could be that long legal
Don I have the upmost respect for the shear majority of LE, but those 99% "good cops" need to do themselves a favor and make sure their departments do not have any of those "bad apples" that spoil the reputation of all. And Don you know there are those that shouldn't be there.
He is (Don) a tough law officer to make it 25 year in the Phoenix Police dept ;D a world of difference in the Phoenix dept and the surrounding area Scottsdale is nothing but wise @$# jerks IMO they are being sued now for 10 mil because of their actions toward a business
I begged for 2 years trying to get them to stop and finally had enough of their crap now the 4 are on paid leave and Scottsdale is trying to settle but that is not going to happen with me
In most cases cities do not "see the light" until they have to start digging in their pockets. Hope you are able to not only teach them a lesson on rights but take them to the cleaners, if the roles were reversed they would be extracting the "blood from the turnip"
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Quote from: buddydawg on September 11, 2014, 07:42:17 AM
There are a few things at play here that I believe are at the root of the negative perception of law enforcement. Whenever an officer is citing you for a violation he is merely a tax collector. I am covinced that speeding citations are only a way to collect money for the state. It has nothing to do with safety. So when said officer is issuing a citation, you are pissed because because he and the state have their tax happy hands in your pocket.
On the other hand we should never forget that right after he plays taxman he may be sent on a call that places him in harms way, confrontation with an active shooter etc..
I think most people very much respect the one view while despising the other.
Well, beg to disagree.
For some time here in Montana we did not have a speed limit, the rule was reasonable and prudent. And folks started to destroy themselves and others by driving faster than they could handle. Wrecks and injuries increased. So a speed limit was adopted so that we could try to keep the unskilled from killing themselves and the rest of us. Turns out there is another reason, Most folks can abide by a speed limit. Most Drunk Drivers have a little more problem. Law enforcement may stop someone who is speeding because there might be a reason why the person is not following the law. Could be that they are impaired. Could be that they are distraught, or just in a hurry. Don't know about elsewhere, but for the most part around here the Speed limits seem to be pretty reasonable so that if you are within 5 mph you get where you are going in a timely manner.
Eastern Oregon on the other hand seems to think that MOSEY is too fast, and they make you financially aware if you stride instead.
I see you been to Jordan Valley Or ::)
I discovered very early on how to avoid speeding tickets-go the speed limit. And when coming into a town that has a slower speed limit, be going that speed that is posted when the front passes that sign. Don't ask how I know. Good Luck, TomC
Quote from: buddydawg on September 11, 2014, 07:42:17 AM
There are a few things at play here that I believe are at the root of the negative perception of law enforcement. Whenever an officer is citing you for a violation he is merely a tax collector. I am covinced that speeding citations are only a way to collect money for the state. It has nothing to do with safety. So when said officer is issuing a citation, you are pissed because because he and the state have their tax happy hands in your pocket.
So, ticketing drunk drivers is merely to collect money and has nothing to do with safety?
I have never been stopped by an officer for a traffic violation. I have needed their help several times while on the road. Once for a trailer axle that broke loose and was in the middle of the interstate. (Officer was heading home from shift and came anyhow. They take their cars home due to the rural nature of the area.)
I dont recall saying anything about doing away with speed limits and DUIs. Yall have a funny way of putting words in my mouth.
Belfert go through Susanville ca and accidentally exceed the speed limit by 4 miles an hour anywhere along the hwy within the city limits, then tell me the 800 $ fine is for safety reasons and not a city doing revenue enhancement.
Beaverton ore is on a revenue enhancement program too, nothing to do with safety, all about money.
I suspect that many policemen feel used when forced to participate in these scams to garner more money into the cities pockets.
Quote from: TomC on September 12, 2014, 07:22:47 AM
I discovered very early on how to avoid speeding tickets-go the speed limit. And when coming into a town that has a slower speed limit, be going that speed that is posted when the front passes that sign. Don't ask how I know. Good Luck, TomC
Sounds easy enough, but there are things like 'speed traps' -
when the sign placement is obscured, OR when the speed limit drops (for no apparent reason) with only 1 sign.
If safety was truly the intent, the speed limit signage would be much easier to see.
The issue I have is the randomness of the enforcement & the consequences. 1 or 2 bad experiences will teach you to see things a certain way.
If you want an education, attend traffic court. You just may be surprised to see what shows up. :o
I was on my way home from a meeting on Friday. Got stuck in a traffic log jam and stopped before entering an intersection even though the light was green - no where to go and I did not want to be blocking the intersection when the light changed. It probably would not have made any difference since the side streets could not make their turns either. Well this young teen rear ends my Ram 2500 4x4 Heavy Duty. Truck, no damage just paint transfer at two places on my chrome bumper. The Toyota Corolla - well the front end did not look too good. He submarined the truck and the hood wound up folded in a "V" shape back over his front wheels.
Town of Southern Pines Officer arrives and asked two questions I thought had absolutely no correlation to the crash. First was, "Where were you coming from? Now I thought about being a wise a$$ and just telling him by pointing my hand in the direction of travel I had arrived at the intersection. Instead I told him I was coming from a meeting in a neighboring town. Second question was, "Where are you going?" I had the same thoughts except now I was even more stressed that he would ask that as a follow-up question. I told him I was on my way home for lunch but that was obviously going to be delayed since he had paperwork to do.
Why should a citizen be asked those two questions? To me its none of their business on both counts. He even asked which lane I was in, since both vehicles were moved from the road under their own power that was a reasonable question. However, I thought this was my opportunity to give him a lesson. I told him I was in Lane #1. He had no idea what that meant. I directed his attention to the double yellow line marking in the center of the road and proceeded to explain to him that lanes are counted from that line toward the outside shoulder of a road. So the first lane adjacent to the double yellow is Lane #1. Then the lane next to Lane #1 is Lane #2. Lesson taught and learned.
Oregon is the worst for speed traps of any state IMO Jordon Valley the speed limit on the state hiway is a funky 55 mph they wait on people leaving Id on the same hiway with a 65 mph limit.
One sign at the fairgrounds entering into Jordon Valley posts a 25 MPH speed limit you leave town a mile out of town in the open desert the guy gave my wife a ticket for going 35 mph she was hot and after a few words she threw the ticket on the ground in front of him and drove off she never did paid that ticket lol
Hey Will, The older we get, the grumpier we get and the less tolerant of "stupid".
Maybe the cop expected you to say you were coming from the direction the truck was pointed and your were backing up toward the traffic approaching your bumper.
Many years ago, when we lived in Louisiana the state passed a law making it illegal for towns to earn more than 25% of there budget from traffic tickets. Apparently, some towns were funded by 3 times that percentage. Of course, you know that would have been all by non-residents passing through.
I thought it was really amazing that they actually passed such a law and suspect that some of the lawmakers or their family members must have gotten ticketed.
I was driving a 1966 Chevelle with a 389/3 deuce Pontiac motored convertible that I built from junkyard parts in 1968 in Birmingham Al one night on a truck route thru the city...speed limit was 35....
The cop asked me how fast I was going...(it was about 45+)...I told him I wasn't sure..maybe 30 something....
He told me the fine for speeding was $50.00 and the fine for impeding traffic was double that...:)
Quote from: kyle4501 on September 14, 2014, 06:16:50 AM
Sounds easy enough, but there are things like 'speed traps' -
when the sign placement is obscured, OR when the speed limit drops (for no apparent reason) with only 1 sign.
If safety was truly the intent, the speed limit signage would be much easier to see.
The issue I have is the randomness of the enforcement & the consequences. 1 or 2 bad experiences will teach you to see things a certain way.
If you want an education, attend traffic court. You just may be surprised to see what shows up. :o
I have found that my GPS has the speed limit for most roads and it has a warning function that tells me when I am over speed so most of those unexpected slow zones are still alerted. That may not help with intentional entrapment by law enforcement, but such entrapment is not legal and should not be allowed.
Quote from: MightyThor on September 14, 2014, 04:15:55 PM
I have found that my GPS has the speed limit for most roads and it has a warning function that tells me when I am over speed so most of those unexpected slow zones are still alerted. That may not help with intentional entrapment by law enforcement, but such entrapment is not legal and should not be allowed.
As nice as that feature is, be careful when depending on a gps, mine often got it wrong. It was on I95 in Savannah GA that I got my last ticket. Posted at 55, gps said it was 70, and I missed the only sign at 55. :'(
Fighting 'entrapment' isn't be cheap, in time or money. . . .
Its funny you guys are all blaming the cops. They don't make the rules the city counsels and the voters do. They only take advantage of the loopholes to make back the money the the City council took away.
The question asked where are you coming from it's because they have to make a long report and that's where it has to start. From the judge to the insurance company, it's all they want to know so that if you say I was coming from the super bowel party at Bebos bar and grill your dead meat and the rest doesn't matter. Where are you going is because they want to know if you were in a hurry to get there. Same reason. Not right but that's what it is all about now days who's gonna pay so the City don't get sued. The cop just makes a report from what you tell them. They don't know, they weren't there. But in court they have to tell your story to the judge of what they saw and what you said.
Just saying
Dave5cs
I don't really blame the police Dave, they are as you say just doing as the city directs them to do. I don't remember who said it but when we get hot at a cop just keep in mind who we are going to call when we need help.
They are just human, they have problems just like the rest of us, the good ones need to be acknowledged, the bad slowly but surely weeded out.
IMO the state police are the most professional in most states, it's as tho they don't need to prove anything.
P.S. I think you said something about my adventure on Ca HWY 49 from Placerville to Alburn, for a 45 footer it was no fun, but once on it I was sort of committed. Never ever take a bus on that route, what a mistake, by the time I got to the bridge and turned left uphill to 80 I was beyond worrying about tight corners anymore, at that point on it looked like a 4 lane freeway (altho half way to the top there is a nasty turn where of course I met another large RV coming down)
That is not true in all cases some little towns don't even have a city government or Incorporated a JP or county judge and his brother in law can make up the rules it that way in about all the 1 horse stops in Nev and OR
That is very true Clifford, where is Andy of Mayberry when you need him. I love the little small towns but they can have their drawbacks
Quote from: Lin on September 14, 2014, 09:36:07 AM
Many years ago, when we lived in Louisiana the state passed a law making it illegal for towns to earn more than 25% of there budget from traffic tickets. Apparently, some towns were funded by 3 times that percentage. Of course, you know that would have been all by non-residents passing through.
I thought it was really amazing that they actually passed such a law and suspect that some of the lawmakers or their family members must have gotten ticketed.
Many years ago, Texas passed a similar law, however cities still depend on fines for funding, even a large city like Dallas. What they do now is give you a deferred judgement provided that you have a clean record for some specified period and pay hundreds of dollars of "court costs." And an unfortunate number of police officers do not much care about whether or not you were actually breaking any law if it's the last few days of the month and they haven't met their quota yet. Experiences like that tarnish my trust for all police because I have no way of knowing until it is too late whether I'm dealing with a trustworthy law officer or not.
edward
We have a Judge in our little town that will explain it to you, The speed limit is 55 not 56 or 57 ..So please all you people that Don't think the law applies to you .Please come on thru ,,Our Rescue squad and volunteer fire dept needs new equipment to better serve our residents. And if you think a speeding ticket hurts.Try one of our school zone violations,,Happy motoring to all ,and please drive on thru ..because our Barney is watching for you ..
Ca. hiway 49 from China Camp to Mariposa was a little tight in a 35 ft. bus also.....had to unhook the toad and have my wife drive ahead of me to let me know if any traffic was coming around some of the corners. Did meet two rigs, first one was a tour bus and the second was another rv.
Ed you were a little to the south of our little adventure. My son and I got it into our heads that we wanted to follow the old gold rush trail, now Ca HWY 49 as far as we could. It is rich with history but tends to go up just to come back down with a good measure of twists and turns doesn't it. Love trains so Jamestown was our first stop.
Had been following your adventures in Mont. another state I wouldn't mind living in but wife says no to the snow in the winter. When we came thru a couple of weeks ago we had a dusting of snow in the mornings on some of the higher passes, not sure I would want to travel to much in the winter there in a bus. Was happy to see you all fixed and on the road again.
Ed,
You went the wrong direction. You want to really have some fun go from Jamestown the other way to Grass Valley on 49. Lee isn't kidding. I have driven that Canyon road with my Tundra and a 16 foot flatbed trailer hauling lumber to a job-site way back in the woods. I didn't think I would make it there at times. Some really steep parts that I wonder if our bus would even make it up without dumping the toad or at all in 1st gear. American River Canyon going up into Auburn after the bridge to the left is so windy narrow and steep I can't even image Lee doing it in a 45 footer but knowing that he did that will be my new story. I know this guy!!!............
Dave5Cs
We done it in a 40 ft Eagle towing a Jeep
Pete, I think I know the town you are talking about. Retardville is where everything is a bit slow.
There a movie called " Blood County" and it is about what you are talking about. Had to finally go out of town because everyone in the government was in on it in the county.
A friend took this video the other day
Greenville Cop Speeding (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yf1iJ91E6ok#)
(//www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yf1iJ91E6ok)
The posted limit is 65 & the cop had left Greenville & was in Simpsonville.
The cop passed him at a pretty good clip, so he sped up to see how fast he was going - that's when he turned on the camera.
As soon as he got home, a phone call was made to the city to report this officer's actions.
At least my buddy wasn't using the phone for texting ;)
Whats your point...the cop does not need his lights to exceed he speed limit.
Quote from: eagle19952 on September 15, 2014, 09:13:10 PM
Whats your point...the cop does not need his lights to exceed he speed limit.
His supervisor indicated otherwise.
I just thought it was appropriate to the discussion that it is easy for an isolated action to be so noticeable.
Personally, I don't care how fast he goes as long as safety of others is not endangered - AND that I am afforded the same . . .
I have often wondered why in this country most think it is their god given right to drive over the speed limit without ramifications. Speed laws are just that, a law. Like any other law. Break the law and there are ramifications. Trying to turn it around and make it all the cops fault is stupid in my book. Just part of the dumbing down of personal responsibility in this country I guess.
Boomer ,,VERY WELL SAID ,,
Well said Boomer and I second you Pete. Bottom line, just do your homework first so you can't use ignorance as an excuse. Like I said, the cop haters can have their opinion but frankly most of these anti cop types behave like the 5 year old that got caught stealing a cookie.
Quote from: eagle19952 on September 15, 2014, 09:13:10 PM
Whats your point...the cop does not need his lights to exceed he speed limit.
Actually most state laws indicate otherwise.
If I need a cop, I won't care if he shows up with lights or not. As long as the cop is not driving in a dangerous fashion and is in the line of duty, then what's the problem? Again, I save my contempt for the criminal pukes rather than the people who are combating it.
I think the point here is that common citizens are sick and tired of the "officials" who have sworn an oath to uphold the law feeling that they are above it because of their
occupation. This video is simply one example of that. One corrupt cop who thinks he's above the law but won't hesitate to use it against us peons. I'm actually amazed
the guy filming him didn't get pulled over and issued a citation.
But I take it from the comments that some individuals think that cops should not be held to the same laws and standards as the rest of the public. And therein is one of the
reasons many of us feel the way we do about them. When cops stop respecting the laws they are supposed to be upholding, they have no business being in law enforcement.
And eventually, every cop stops respecting the laws, and then justify it by saying something like "they put their life on the line". HOGWASH!
And a cop who will look the other way because a law breaker happens to be another cop is even more corrupt than the first!
It is just as easy for a law abiding person to violate the speed limit as to follow it. No one can drive at exactly the speed limit all the time, at some point you will end up a little over. The issues folks here were mostly complaining of is are where the speed limit or the signage seems to be set to cause the violation rather than to serve a legitimate safety concern. For example, in my county there is one sign that drops the 70 mph highway speed to 35mph. Cannot be done. By the time you see the sign you can't hit the brakes hard enough to slow to the legal speed. Locals know it is there so they slow down early. Tourists get stopped and either warned or if there are other issues they get to deal with them.
I was wondering when the "They all do it" talking point would come up. There are some people in LE that have no business being in that position. Whether they are incompetent are of bad moral character, those are far and few between. Perhaps self examination is in order if you continue to have such problems.
Quote from: CrabbyMilton on September 16, 2014, 09:55:48 AM
I was wondering when the "They all do it" talking point would come up. There are some people in LE that have no business being in that position. Whether they are incompetent are of bad moral character, those are far and few between. Perhaps self examination is in order if you continue to have such problems.
Are (were) you a cop?
I was surprised the LEO didn't radio ahead for an intercept....lucky camera guy IMO etc.
I love Texas the 80 mph speed limit on I 10 is hard to break the 55 mph in OR sucked with my gearing 55 was to high for 3rd and to low for 4th and you knew they would get you for 60 mph
So I solved that little problem for a 100 bucks a year it's called the 100 Club some may approve some may not it went for a good cause and I never had a speeding ticket since 1978 belonging to the 100 Club
To me there is no reason to issue a ticket for 1 or 2 mph over the limit the radar could be off more than that, now days tickets are big bucks not like when one cost 15 bucks and the insurance co's didn't come into play with the dumb point system FWIW I don't see any cop haters here just some don't like the power abuse and attitude some law enforcement officers have
Hell I don't like the chief cop in Washington DC but that doesn't make me a cop hater even if I don't like all the Federal,City,County and State laws, not a one on this board that doesn't break the law every day and don't even know it IMO
No Gumpy I'm not nor have I ever been a cop but Thank You for asking.
Yeah, that Oregon stuff made no sense to me. And my equipment didn't help. Driving a V8 mustang across the vast flat land when I got stopped the officer pointed to my GPS and said Don't you know how fast you were going? I told him my cruise control was broken and that just a tiny amount of pressure on the mustang's gas peddle would result in 5 to 10 mph variance. His response was 'yeah, but your GPS tells you how fast you are going." He had apparently heard the old "my speedo is broken" excuse too many times and was not listening to me. I figured why talk if no one is listening. In Montana the fine would have been $20. In Oregon $260. Must be a higher standard of living there cause frankly a flat 4 lane across no where would seem to be the same. So I am complaining about the following:
The speed limit seems arbitrary and not related to any particular road hazard or conditions.
The fine seems to be arbitrary and not consistent with fines for the same conduct committed elsewhere.
The Officer had a preconceived opinion of the circumstances and did not care about the actual circumstances
lesson learned, if you drive in Oregon have a working cruise control and a broken GPS
Quote from: luvrbus on September 16, 2014, 10:06:50 AM
To me there is no reason to issue a ticket for 1 or 2 mph over the limit the radar could be off more than that,
Just to mention that here the rules are explicit regarding that - it's 10% + 2mph (ie, in a 30mph limit you can legally do 35mph, in a 50mph limit you can legally do 57mph etc). The leeway is there to accommodate inaccuracies in the car's speedometer rather than the radar used to catch you (in fact the Police have to prove correct calibration of their equipment if the motorist demands it).
Without wanting to make comparisons regarding Police corruption or public attitudes towards authority or anything like that, one big thing which completely changes this whole area between the UK and the US is that basically no routine enforcement of anything on the roads is handled by live Police officers any more. Everything is done by cameras - not just speed cameras (and increasingly they're average speed cameras) but also cameras that detect cars jumping stop lights, cameras that automatically check your car is taxed, insured and MOT'd (ie. roadworthy-tested) - and it's pretty hard to argue that a camera is corrupt.
Not that I'm necessarily saying that it's a good thing - we have the "it's all about raising money" arguement in spades here, and you wonder about other stuff too. I used to sail with an ex-Police pursuit driver who told me quite seriously that, if he got to the point of having 9 points on his driving licence (meaning that another speeding ticket would mean he's be banned from driving for a year), he would simply fit false licence plates to his car to ensure that he never got caught by a camera again. Having false licence plates is a serious offence, but he assured me (as an ex-Policeman) that there was almost no chance of being caught. Which cannot be a good state of affairs
Jeremy
If Oregon taxed all the wacky weed grown there a ticket would cost 2 bucks that stuff looks like the cotton fields here if you get off the main hiways :P I always liked they way Wyoming handled it back in the 80's with the 55mph speed limit imposed on the freeway.
With the distance between towns there they knew no one was going to drive 55 mph in the middle of nowhere so if you got pulled over for speeding the trooper would explain your options,the best was to post the 20 dollar bond he wrote out and pay him on the spot with cash,check or credit card.Then don't show up for court then the bond was forfeited that way it never showed up on your driving records plus if you were pulled over again in the state just show the trooper your bond and all that was said is have nice day
Ok, I am gonna call shenanigans on that cop video. If they are both doing 90 then the folks around them are also traveling at 85 or better because they don't actually pass anyone and the folks in the mirror are not losing ground. And there isn't a cop in the world that would not pull someone over at that speed for doing what this guy is doing. notice the driver shows us the officer but not his own speedo showing the actual speed.
The idea of treating speed limits as meaningful law is ridiculous, and people should not be sanctimonious about it. Laws that deal with murder, robbery, fraud, and even running a red light can be justified as having an obvious value. Speed limits could also be if they were matched to road conditions and population density. Unfortunately, it seems that many speed limits are set by those that can't drive for those that can't drive. Naturally, others that have more than minimal driving skills will feel that these limits are sometimes oppressive-- especially when there is the suspicion that they are merely enforced as an arbitrary, punitive revenue source.
Set speed limits according to the speed criteria the road was designed for, and it would make some sense. Obviously, the cop in the video did not think he was traveling at an unsafe speed at 90 mph, but that would seem to me to be excessive in a non-emergency situation (just my opinion). However, I would guess that interstates were designed with at least 80 mph in mind. States that set the limit at 55 are just diddling with you.
P.S.- I am retired LE, but that doesn't mean anything either way.
Good one Lin 56 mph in a 55 mph speed limit on a OK hiway or Interstate will get you a $180.00 ticket in a hurry ::)
Quote from: CrabbyMilton on September 16, 2014, 09:55:48 AM
... There are some people in LE that have no business being in that position. Whether they are incompetent are of bad moral character, those are far and few between. Perhaps self examination is in order if you continue to have such problems.
Since 1968, I have received two (2) traffic citations. That's one every 26 years -- hardly a reason for self examination.
Of those two citations, one was for speeding in a school zone when the school zone was on a parallel street a block away and the other was for exceeding the 30 mph speed limit when I was stuck in the middle of a traffic jam approaching a detour going less than 25 mph. Both were in the last three days of a month.
I have had excellent relations with many law officers over my lifetime and expect to continue to do so but experience tells me that whether I like or hate law officers, I cannot blindly trust, especially when I had one law officer say to my face "It doesn't matter what the law is, the city attorney will back us up."
edward
Virginia can be testy too. Lousy-Anna used to be pretty bad too...
Once upon a time in Montana it was the same cept it was cash only and no change, knew a guy riding a motorcycle had to part with $100 for lack of a $20.... asked the cop if he could get a punch card.... ::)
Quote from: MightyThor on September 16, 2014, 04:15:35 PM
Ok, I am gonna call shenanigans on that cop video. If they are both doing 90 then the folks around them are also traveling at 85 or better because they don't actually pass anyone and the folks in the mirror are not losing ground. And there isn't a cop in the world that would not pull someone over at that speed for doing what this guy is doing. notice the driver shows us the officer but not his own speedo showing the actual speed.
What I saw on the video-
Very light traffic.
At 0:02 the speedometer is shown.
At 0:05 the cop brake lights come on.
At 0:37 they catch up to the black SUV.
What I know about that section of interstate-
Speed limit is 65
Traffic usually runs at 70 to 75
Not at all unusual to see cars travelling well above 75
What I know about the guy who took the video-
Runs his own successful small business.
Despises a double standard.
Sure, I think he is crazy to speed & crazier still for yelling at the cop while at speed.
However, if the officer chose to issue him a ticket, the officer would have had to go to a court that was outside his jurisdiction AND explain why he was traveling the speed he was. The officers commander called my buddy back & told him the officer was reprimanded & it was noted in his file.
If it had been me, I would have been glad he wasn't holding up the flow of traffic ! I figure the ones who drive that fast when off duty really don't care about the speed of others as long as it isn't creating any safety hazards. . . .
What bothers me most is when police cars ride 5 below the posted limit & bunch cars up behind them - seems like they do it to have control . . .
I'm still surprised that he wasn't ticketed for using a hand held electronic device...
And I believe the part about the reprimand....not.
And often in heavy traffic ahead (unknown to you) police will run herd/ 5 under... it's for your future safety..well maybe not yours, (it reduces congestion on the road) but everyone else's.
Quote from: eagle19952 on September 16, 2014, 06:18:33 PM
And often in heavy traffic ahead (unknown to you) police will run herd/ 5 under... it's for your future safety..well maybe not yours, (it reduces congestion on the road) but everyone else's.
Here in CA, I've often seen the CHP, especially in the SF Bay Area and the LA Basin, turn on their Code 3 lights and start zig-zagging across all lanes of traffic in one direction to pace/slow down the herd due to severe congestion or an accident ahead.
Also, here in the Central Valley, where in the winter (when it's been wet!) we often get what's called a "Tule fog," - so thick you cannot see two lane divider stripes on the roadway ahead of you. The CHP will do the same thing - zig-zag with their C-3 lights on to pace the herd safely through the worst parts.
I have, on occasion, reported speeding patrol cars to their agency (local PD, SO or CHP) depending on conditions. I try to get the license plate or car number, time of day, location and direction of travel, then mail a written complaint. Letters often get more attention than phone calls, I've found. Especially if I do not include my phone number for a return call!
FWIW & HTH. . .
;)
Quote from: eagle19952 on September 16, 2014, 06:18:33 PM
I'm still surprised that he wasn't ticketed for using a hand held electronic device...
Me too !
Quote from: eagle19952 on September 16, 2014, 06:18:33 PM
And often in heavy traffic ahead (unknown to you) police will run herd/ 5 under... it's for your future safety..well maybe not yours, (it reduces congestion on the road) but everyone else's.
That hasn't been my experience around here. - I see less brake checking for heavy congestion & collisions blocking lanes of traffic than I see behind slow patrols.
But, no one remembers the polite & courteous cop the way we remember the rude one . . . .
Behave & you won't have to worry. - As long as your "go-pro" recorded the events clearly . . . ::)