S, My '02, 28 foot Bluebird has a 5.9 Cummins. I was thinking about adding one of those "chip" tuner/programmer thingies-thingys? - (not sure which is proper slang - lol) It is quite a dog and I spend most of my driving time with my foot to the floor - And it is unloaded! currently undergoing an interior build-out.
What are your recommendations for a little more power - a "chip"? - If so, which one?
Changing injectors or some other go-fast remedy?? - Maybe pull it with a Prius?
- Thanks in advance :-)
Which Allison transmission do you have? If it is the AT545, nothing will make it go faster. If it is the 2000 series, then you can go up to 300hp. If it is the 3000 series, the 5.9 won't be able to overpower it. I believe that around 250hp and 660lb/ft torque is realistically the highest you can go with the 5.9 liter. Tell us your transmission, and rear end ratio. Better-what rpm are you at at 65mph? With a 5.9 (or 6.7) should be geared at 2100rpm at 65mph. Good Luck, TomC
I thought the hp increase on your year model had to be done through the Bosch rotary pump $$$ and injectors the PDM on the pump just controls the rpm,the common rail model is a different story
Quote from: TomC on August 27, 2014, 07:15:26 AM
I believe that around 250hp and 660lb/ft torque is realistically the highest you can go with the 5.9 liter.
How much do the coach engines differ from the pickup truck engines? I'm guessing not that much, and I think those numbers are low as a result.
With H&S tuning, my Cummins ISB 6.7 (Dodge Ram pickup) dynos at 500hp and 1100lb-ft, at the rear wheels. You do the math on what that means at the flywheel. Heck, the engine is now available at 385hp/850lb-ft straight from the manufacturer. The 6.7 is mostly just a bigger 5.9, which a lot of government-mandated crap attached. I've got 57k miles and counting on mine, including a good bit of heavy towing.
Gearing and transmission durability are another question...
Cheers, John
THanks Guys, Tom,
Duke - that's more along the lines of what I was wondering. I didn't think they were different. My experienced diesel friend at first didn't think mine could be "chipped" but he was comparing it to his a year older - then he said mine was electronically controlled and could prob be "chipped" - FWIW
Tom - I believe the gear ratio is 3.54 - The tag on the body says 3.54ns and the transmission (on the same plate "tag" says 3211104160 the "engine serial" space says 46072450
- Thanks again
Quote from: dukegrad98 on August 27, 2014, 07:30:42 AM
With H&S tuning, my Cummins ISB 6.7 (Dodge Ram pickup) dynos at 500hp and 1100lb-ft, at the rear wheels.
Cheers, John
Now that is a nice number only dreamed about in my world, having dyno'd many Cat, DDC & Cummins, hp at the drive wheels and at flywheel are miles apart. Would take a fairly wild N14 to give 500 on the drive. Your ISB 6.7 aint no N14 by a mile or two. ;D
Dave M
The common rail on the 5.9 hit the market in 2003 if yours has the injection pump it is probably electronic controlled with a PDM but it won't have the electronics like the common rail 5.9 250 hp would be pushing it with the Bosch rotary injection pump The 5.9 is a good little engine till you start trying to get more from it than the 360 CI can handle.I have seen these guys install the 4 inch stroke kits in those they run wicked for a few thousand miles then it is over with a big bang
Both the Cummins 6.7 ISB and the Ford 6.7 Powerstroke are available in commercial trucks. The Cummins ISB in Freightliner, Kenworth, Peterbilt, International at a maximum of 300hp and 660lb/ft torque. The Ford 6.7 Powerstroke V-8 is going to be the exclusive Diesel engine in the Ford F650/750 rated at 250hp and 660lb/ft torque. Granted you can push more fuel and air through to get more power, but take it from the big guys-there is a good reason these 6.7 liters are limited to 660lb/ft torque.
The 5.9 was 620lb/ft torque-if I remember right. Good Luck, TomC
Maximum power from 2002 5.9 with electronic rotary injection pump-245hp with 505lb/ft torque. Not much.
I would try to find a 6.7 liter out of a commercial truck with the Allison 2000 or 3000 transmission. You can turn the 6.7 up to 325hp and 800lb/ft torque. Good Luck, TomC
Quote from: TomC on August 27, 2014, 03:17:52 PM
Maximum power from 2002 5.9 with electronic rotary injection pump-245hp with 505lb/ft torque. Not much.
I would try to find a 6.7 liter out of a commercial truck with the Allison 2000 or 3000 transmission. You can turn the 6.7 up to 325hp and 800lb/ft torque. Good Luck, TomC
Is the 6.7 liter a six-cylinder?
Quote from: Oonrahnjay on August 28, 2014, 06:48:00 AM
Is the 6.7 liter a six-cylinder?
Yep, the Cummins 6.7 is a straight-six. It's mostly fair to just think of it as a bigger 5.9 with common rail and a lot of emissions junk added.
The Ford 6.7 is a V8, and I don't know much about it. Ford hasn't been able to settle on a good diesel since the 7.3.
Cheers, John
We own 2 F350 SRW, A 2011 & a 2013, have had great luck with the Fords where we had poor luck with the GM line, did have good luck with the GM 6.2, the rest of it was poor.
Today our experience has been with 2-7.3, 2-6.0 1-6.4 . The 1st 6.7 is the 2011 F350 SRW, THEN ADDED A 2013 identical .
We find the 6.7 very superior to any of the Navistar engines. Ford has figured it out apparently, so the thought of buying another Navistar is not good even though I liked the 7.3 and had very little problems with the 6.0 or 6.4 engines. The 6.7 is that much better, better fuel mileage, quieter and feels like 3 X the useable power.
I tell folks, do not test drive one until your able to buy it, it will give you a big case of "The Wants"
Do what feels correct.
Dave M
The Cummins 6.7 is a 6 cylinder with the same external dimensions as the 5.9. The only smog device on the 6.7 is cooled exhaust gas recirculation-in which all engines have this now-including my '84 Mercedes 300 turbo Diesel that has over 463,000 miles on it without overhaul. All other smog controls now are after the engine. This is why today's Diesels run so well with great fuel mileage. Good Luck, TomC
The SCR and the DPF are both after the engine, that is true, but it's also splitting hairs in my book. You might argue that EGR is "before" the engine, under that framework. The bottom line is that all three mechanisms affect the new engines, and did not affect the old ones.
Cheers, John
Forgot to add that we also run a 5.9 Cummins 190 hp and the 545 Allison, in a FL60, not a ball of fire but is dependable and does its job as crane truck.
Dave M
Emissions is why they went to the 6.7
Maybe the 5.9 mechanical was a more reliable engine. But compare the power output and the fuel mileage with the newer engines-no comparison.
When I was driving, my mechanical Cat 3406B rated at 400hp and 1350lb/ft torque-I averaged 5.4mpg. Today with a DD15 rated at 455hp and 1650lb/ft torque, there are some getting 8-9mpg with 80,000lb loads. Compared to a 1988 truck, it would take 60 of todays trucks to duplicate what just one 1988 truck would put out in smog. Remarkable. Good luck, TomC
I guess I don't know much about Cummins engines but my neighbor had a 2nd gen 5.9 Cummins in a truck, it was a 24v 2001 I think, and he had it tuned with a tuner. Why can't this 2002 5.9 cummings have a tuner on it? Is it different when installed in a bus chassis?
Brian
You need to get yourself a CPL book it will tell you what you can do with your engine. Mine is 1999 so it wont help you much. Cummins did produce CPL # 2208 a 6BTA 370hp@3000 rpm and 726 ftlbstq @2200 rpm. In order to get more hp from one of these little engines you have to combine several parts like the cylinder head, pistons, camshaft and or timing, turbo, injectors and pump, buy the time you put all of this together you could do some research and go to a wrecking yard and buy one with the hp and tq you are looking for. If you decide to go for it find an engine with the inline pump it will produce more power and no matter what you chose you need to change from an after cooler to a charge air cooler. You could also look at the military auctions and see if you can find a 5.9 from one of the patrol boats there not really a 5.9 but they are high output engines.
Hope this helps
Don
Good morning Don Good to see you still around.
Did you catch any trout on your last fishing trip.
uncle ned
Morning Uncle Ned how are you and Wilma doing, no did not catch any fish on this trip but may have a job. I heading back up around the 18th of Sept for another week, you guys should come up and go fishing with me. I have to be in vegas the 19 and 20th and will go up after that. I hope to see Van and meet Tom. (lvmci)
We lost the lease on the other shop and have moved into a small shop and don't have any room to do anything so I am selling or scraping all of my two stroke engines and parts. I went down to Valley and got my Allison 1k2k3k4k transmission certs so I can be of value to some shop some where. LOL
I was already certified on the AT, MT and HT products.
Don
I think the 2208 had a 3 and 5/8 stroke too Don they make 3 different cranks for that engine Case uses the 3-5/8 cranks in some of there applications it's really was their engine till they sold to Cummins they did all the castings for that engine in Pryor Ok at their foundry in the industrial park behind Vogue been there many times doing work.
One of my employees would always haul a John Deere or a Cat piece of machinery there to work then I would have to send him to get the Case stuff he did that more than once before he ever got the message ;D
Don I have a friend that is building him a truck to tow his old tractors.
He is using a 12v71 detroit and a chev truck frame "he thinks". Ken and I do not think the truck frame is heavy enough but he is does things his way.
The truck has a 5;00 something rear end, will not do to good with a 740 trans.
Will let him find out the hard way.
Look forward to our next rally at BK's
See you sometime
ned
Ned, load up Wilma and Sam and come up to Wyoming. 12V71 is a heavy engine with a lot of TQ a pickup frame wont hold up very long with out reinforcement. When we built the super boss race truck we used an old kw with a 12V71 TT and a HT754 with 290 gears, that thing would twist that frame up something fierce. on the chassis dyno.
Clifford I knew they were a different stroke did not but did not how or about the different crankshafts.
Clifford you coming over to LV any time soon, come up around the 19th or 20th and I will buy you some water of some type. LOL
You and momma need to come up to Wyoming with me maybe we can get Ned, bk, ken, Gary and a few others to show up and have a rally.
Don
May work out Don we plan on being in Idaho the 1st of Oct for me to go Steelhead fishing
Don, Which Allison certs did you get? I finally got my DOC programming cert earlier this year.
Quote from: wg4t50 on August 27, 2014, 08:02:34 AM
Now that is a nice number only dreamed about in my world, having dyno'd many Cat, DDC & Cummins, hp at the drive wheels and at flywheel are miles apart. Would take a fairly wild N14 to give 500 on the drive. Your ISB 6.7 aint no N14 by a mile or two. ;D
Dave M
Well, in this world there are TONS of ISBs, 5.9s or 6.7s, making 500+ at the wheels. The record ones are pumping out 1000+ with 2200+ lb-ft of torque, at 120 - 200 psi of boost!
What's the catch? Life. An N14 or ISX can have a decent service life at 500 hp. If you towed with an ISB at 500 hp 100% duty cycle, I'd estimate 50,000 miles conservative. And that's a perfectly setup twin turbo with oversized intercooler (keeping EGT as low as possible).
For the OP, how much engine life are you willing to sacrifice?
Personally, I'm looking at building up a 400 hp ISB for my bus (28,000 lbs), with a targeted engine life of 150,000 miles.
LOL not with just a chip on a Bosch PDM controlled injection pump as the original poster posted you are not going to get those numbers
Great points, RoyJ. For the record, while my 6.7 is capable of a 500/1100 level of output, I certainly don't always (in fact, very rarely) run it there -- it's kind of a "bragging rights / dyno setting" on the tuner. I would never run at those levels when towing -- I usually bump way down to a setting around 375/800 and keep a close eye on exhaust gas temps and watch for any chattering from the torque converter, as the trans is definitely the weak link. (My system automatically and progressively dials back output at certain threshold EGTs.) Even at the low setting, I have crossed Colorado mountain passes at 70mph while pulling a 10,000lb travel trailer. Not too shabby.
I also watch my calculated load gauge, which typically reads 20-35% in regular driving or steady cruising, and perhaps 60-75% on acceleration or climbing grades, etc. I only see 100% load when doing something like passing at highway speeds, at full throttle, and then only for a period of several seconds to execute the pass. Boost is limited at 36psi on my truck, though I rarely see more than 25psi spikes during real-world usage, with steady readings more in the 4-10psi range at cruise speed. As above, I only see 30+ psi when passing aggressively at 70+ mph. I have enough air from the turbo that I don't smoke even at full load. I refuse to "roll coal" like some of the rednecks you see out there giving diesel a bad name.
The beauty of electronic/computer control is that I can make the performance-level change at the push of a button, on the fly. On the street with no load, I typically run a 425/900-ish setting, and I don't worry as much about longevity -- the tires will wear out before the driveline does. It actually makes the truck fun to drive. I rarely keep a vehicle beyond 100k miles, though I've had at least one (Mercedes diesel) go beyond 200k. This truck is looking like a "keeper." With ~60k miles in under three years, even when she's no longer in the daily-driver rotation, I think she'll remain in the family fleet as a ranch truck or occasional tow/haul rig. If there's an engine or trans rebuild somewhere in the lifespan, it'll probably be worth it, particularly as the government continues to make it harder and harder to have a diesel in this country.
Cheers, John
If that engine is electronic with a botch vp44 pump I wouldn't see why a power puck or edge ez wouldn't work on it. They just plug into map sensor and pump not obd port so I would think it would work on an industrial motor. They add something like 90 hp and 180 ft/lbs torque and the last power puck I installed was around $250 shipped. Just look them up for a 2002 dodge ram cummins and look at some pics to c if the plugs look like they will work. Also make sure u have a few psi of fuel pressure comming to the injector pump via a lift pump those vp44 won't last long if lift pump fails. The ram trucks also respond well to boost elbows installed on the turbo waste gate line to up the boost a bit and to lower egts with the added fuel. Like mentioned above wouldn't b a bad idea to install an egt gauge if doing any mods especially in a heavy bus
John and Roy, you are comparing two different engine platforms and fuel systems, yes you can turn up the VP44 pump but it is still a rotary pump, you don't get a CP3 high pressure common rail system like the 6.7 or 6.6 gm until 03 model year . If you want a high power small cummins you are going back to a 12 Valve head and inline pump but that's not what was asked for.
There are hop up kits out there but for the dodge/ cummins truck not a bus so you will have to adapt some thing to your application. Give us the CPL # and serial # from the engine and I will point you to someone that can help you.
These guys that are racing these small cummins engines are not leaving them 5.9 as Clifford said they are boring and stroking them and adding two or three turbo,s, 12 Valve heads, inline pumps, high flow injectors and other things to get where they want to go but you are not running that as a daily driver.
AZDIESELMAN I went down and got the maintenance and overhaul certs. I have some Allison Doc training but not the cert as of yet, that's next.
Don
You can hp from anything with enough dollars here in Valley we have a guy running 1250 hp Duramax in a GMC with a Allison lol Don's Duramax is not bad either ;D one would be amazed how much HP the 284 CI 4-71 Detroit can produce
Just remember-many engine manufacturers rate engine life by how much fuel has flown through it. So while a 5.9 may be able to get 500hp out of it-I doubt it would last 50,000mi before blowing. A Cummins ISM at 500hp and 1550lb/ft would probably go at least 500,000mi before over haul. While a Cummins ISX 15 liter at 500hp and 1550lb/ft torque would probably go close to 1.2 million miles before overhaul. This is why Detroit makes the DD13 with 470hp and 1650lb/ft torque rated at around 800,000mi life. While the DD15 at the same power a 1.3 million motor. Good Luck, TomC
Quote from: oldfordlover36 on August 28, 2014, 09:59:03 PM
If that engine is electronic with a botch vp44 pump I wouldn't see why a power puck or edge ez wouldn't work on it. They just plug into map sensor and pump not obd port so I would think it would work on an industrial motor. They add something like 90 hp and 180 ft/lbs torque and the last power puck I installed was around $250 shipped. Just look them up for a 2002 dodge ram cummins and look at some pics to c if the plugs look like they will work. Also make sure u have a few psi of fuel pressure comming to the injector pump via a lift pump those vp44 won't last long if lift pump fails. The ram trucks also respond well to boost elbows installed on the turbo waste gate line to up the boost a bit and to lower egts with the added fuel. Like mentioned above wouldn't b a bad idea to install an egt gauge if doing any mods especially in a heavy bus
So, Does anyone have experience with this? I really don't know the difference between a 5.9 in a dodge pickup and the 5.9 in the Bluebird. - Keep in mind, I'm not looking to do tractor pulls with this - just get a little more pulling power up the hills. The bus will probably be lighter than stock by a couple hundred pounds so I don't think it should be such a dog - but what do I know.......
Thanks again :-)
Shooting from the hip here, that should have the Bosch injector pump. If I recall right, there were a lot of issues with them. 2002 gave everyone with a 5.9 a 545 transmission. Thats your weak link right there. You arent going to make any improvements. The way its setup right now, its pretty bomb proof. If you are going up and down a lot, you are going to have to pay attention with your gear selection. If you are going downhill, its going to be a freewheeling ride due to a non-locking converter.
Son-in-law just replaced his pistons due to having a chipped engine. Heat is going to be the downfall there. He knew this and had paid careful attention to his pyro, but it melted 3 pistons regardless. Also, the 545 generates a ton of heat in stock config let alone with more HP coming into it.
Not my call but I would highly advise against doing anything to the powertrain. My thoughts; sit back and enjoy the scenery.
Yeah Opus, if that's the case I'm just going to have to take it easy. I guess I was just looking for a fast solution if it didn't cost too much. :-\
One other thought. Where is the power curve on these - if it's this much of a dog would it be worthless to try to put a hitch on and pull a vehicle or trailer?? or would it not matter much due to good low-end torque?
Thanks for the info