Hey guys, I'm new on this board. I'm not a bus converter, but I do ride Greyhound a lot. I'm planning to start a bus line in a few years and saving up right now, so I'm looking at used buses and looking for info. Since I'm planning to run a bus line, average yearly mileage would be at least 135,000 miles going up to 180,000 miles.
I thought I might need some high luggage capacity so I was looking at the high-deckers and found the MCI 102EL3 has 445 cubic feet and is unaffected by a wheelchair-lift retrofit, unlike the H3-45 which loses capacity with the installation of a lift and has less parcel rack capacity.
The problem is, most EL3's on the market seem heavily overpriced and I've also heard bad things about them including fires and frequent breakdowns. At the prices being charged by Las Vegas Bus Sales and other dealers, they seem to be a big waste of money.
This is the cheapest I could find: http://sales.mcicoach.com/preowned/pcoach.nsf/(searchresults)/68B37A8350617F0286257C9A00730F19?editdocument. (http://sales.mcicoach.com/preowned/pcoach.nsf/(searchresults)/68B37A8350617F0286257C9A00730F19?editdocument.)
I also found this: http://www.lasvegasbussales.com/coach-buses-for-sale/used-bus-1998-mci-102-el3-56-passenger-highway-coach-c60197. (http://www.lasvegasbussales.com/coach-buses-for-sale/used-bus-1998-mci-102-el3-56-passenger-highway-coach-c60197.)
944,839-mile EL3 for nearly $70,000!
And this $110,000 unit with Torino VIP seating: http://www.lasvegasbussales.com/coach-buses-for-sale/used-bus-for-sale-1999-mci-102el3-with-detroit-diesel-allison-combo-c60863. (http://www.lasvegasbussales.com/coach-buses-for-sale/used-bus-for-sale-1999-mci-102el3-with-detroit-diesel-allison-combo-c60863.)
Don't even know if that's hub odometer or dash odometer. But really? Those prices seem to be pretty darn high. Anybody know why they are so expensive despite all the known problems about them? Did they fix the problems or did they just forget about it and sell off the spiral staircase?
I know to stay away from Northeast buses but how are Midwest buses? I know the Southwest buses should be the best due to large deserts with little to no moisture or salt corrosion.
I'm not buying anything right now, need to save up a few years more. But just looking at those offerings, I've been appalled at the EL3's high prices.
Thanks for you time. I'm always happy to learn about buses.
You do realize that everything is a trade off, right? What you save on the front end buying old coaches eats you up on the back end keeping them running. This may come as a shock but a repair on a $20,000 used coach costs the same as the repair on a $400,000 new coach. That makes you question why you are dumping money that adds nothing to the value into an old coach.
Have you run the math? Have you considered the costs of depreciation as a tax benefit? Assuming you are in business to make money new coaches have a substantial economic benefit to their owners in addition to the obvious one of reliability. Have you considered the impact of down time on old coaches to you and the customer? What about the safety aspects? Older coaches don't come close to the safety of the newer coaches with stability control, adaptive braking, fire suppression systems, etc.
There are no silver bullets in business. If you can find a niche market where an old coach will work, go for it. Especially if you are highly skilled as a mechanic and keep that old coach running reliably. The older and cheaper the coach however, the more band aids you can expect to need. And customer loyalty goes down the toilet if your coach load of people sits by the side of the road awaiting the wrecker and a replacement coach.
Just buy BK's and his parents complete operation it's for sale, the E series must not be to bad of a bus they sure keep their value compared to the others it's hard to find a super deal on 1 fwiw
Even if you do not buy BK's business, he would be an absolute gold mine of information.
I'm not looking to buy very old coaches like the MC-9, I'm talking about late 1990s and early 2000s coaches which are still in service with Greyhound (like the 102DL3), albeit the older ones got a $120,000 rebuild, but then again, they got that rebuild at about 1,500,000 miles. Meanwhile, Greyhound's new D4505's are burning up and breaking down frequently, so new coaches are not going to work.
I'm pretty sure a 1998 102DL3 would be fine, but a 1998 102EL3 might be a huge waste of money.
I'm planning to run flat desert night runs that are not very demanding on coaches unless they break down, but look at those D4505's breaking down all the time in Greyhound service.
Did I mention burnings? https://www.flickr.com/photos/95851032@N07/14972733956/. (https://www.flickr.com/photos/95851032@N07/14972733956/.)
Don't know if you've seen this. Google, Cranky Ape Auctions, (Buy it Now Section) there is a 2009 Freightliner X-Line Mega Bus Limbusine ,Unit #49629. Buy it now for $90,000. 24,000 miles. Offer $75,000 and you would probably get it. Have bought a lot of goodies off this site.
I don't see how I would be running a bus line with a Freightliner chassis motorhome.
I would really like to know why the EL3 is so expensive and if it was really that bad of a bus. Surely it can't be as bad as a Van Hool?
The are to many E's on the road to be a bad bus my buddy at Arrow Stage Lines in Phoenix thinks they are great he puts them right up with the Setras.FWIW all buses burn from fire in the engine compartment,tires or brakes
B&B in Vegas has a shop full of Prevost that had fires, now all bus manufactures are installing fire suppression in the engine compartment that is not just a Greyhound and the MCI E problem
I find the only MCI to really be a dog is the G design by Greyhound and made in Mexico I like the new VanHool TX 45 with the DD13 that is a sharp looking bus with a good power train
I know Arrow Stage Lines, but there's a problem. They are currently selling two E4500's through MCI Pre-Owned Bus Sales and replacing them with J4500's. Could you please say why your buddy at Arrow loves them? Because it seems like Arrow doesn't love them. Arrow currently uses J4500's for charters and tours, D4505's for routes. They also have a few body-on-chassis cutaways for rural routes. I don't know if they still have more E's, I know they used to run E's on the Denver-Omaha route, Greyhound doesn't go to Omaha anymore.
Here are the Arrow E's for sale:
http://sales.mcicoach.com/preowned/pcoach.nsf/(searchresults)/0707C4BA1A79AF8385257CD1005ABFC1?editdocument. (http://sales.mcicoach.com/preowned/pcoach.nsf/(searchresults)/0707C4BA1A79AF8385257CD1005ABFC1?editdocument.)
http://sales.mcicoach.com/preowned/pcoach.nsf/(searchresults)/B3ECF4C74BCD6D7785257CD100577CEA?editdocument. (http://sales.mcicoach.com/preowned/pcoach.nsf/(searchresults)/B3ECF4C74BCD6D7785257CD100577CEA?editdocument.)
I myself haven't seen a E in a long time, but I've seen tons and tons of J's. I've ridden a few E's and liked them myself but that is all I know.
Maybe the E isn't so bad after all, but still, their prices seem a bit too high especially compared to the H3-45's on the market. I thought the E was supposed to compete with the H3-45 but ended up failing.
Also, I heard the EL3 was "fixed" by 2000 but most units on the market are 1998's and 1999's, making me nervous that I would buy one and have it fall apart like a G4500 even though it's not made in Sahagun. I heard about "software updates" but can't find more information about that.
What do you guys think about H3-45 vs 102EL3/E4500?
Edit: The links don't work but they are indeed on MCI Pre-Owned Coach Sales.
E,J and Setra are about all he runs in Phoenix he is replacing some of his older E and doing the same with his older Setra's and Prevost's it is time some outfits won't lease his buses that are over 5 years old some of his E's are old for him, he uses nothing but the Setra's in his Corporate Coach division in Phoenix the guy owns 400 buses
Quote from: luvrbus on August 24, 2014, 03:42:48 PM
he uses nothing but the Setra's in his Corporate Coach division in Phoenix the guy owns 400 buses
gives me the impression he knows a thing or two... ;D
I don't under stand how in the world he is going to run a used bus 135,000 to 180,000 miles a year even if he could pull it off he would need 3 drivers for the 1 bus
Yes, multiple drivers for the same bus, just like Greyhound does. I've got the mileage set up, no less than 135,000 miles a year, I just don't know if a EL3 can take that.
Greyhound Canada has a 1996 DL3 that was rebuilt at ~1,900,000 miles and now has ~2,300,000 miles on it, still running 130,000 miles a year on the highways, so really, that is one tough bus! I know I'd be fine with a well-maintained used DL3 below 1,000,000 miles, but what about the EL3?
Maybe its like a Setra, but Setra's apparently got rejected by Greyhound after a demo. And Van Hools are just not up to the task, I've known plenty of mechanics, drivers, and managers that hated them.
I know Arrow has some contracts requiring coaches newer than 5 years old, but could you ask him how many miles are on those EL3's he's selling? I can't buy for a few years but again, I heard the EL3's from 2000 and later are pretty good, so I would like to know how the market could turn out three years from now.
So does anyone know exactly the details of the EL3, why it's so expensive, and if a 1998 or 1999 is acceptable? Would greatly appreciate that info. I know there's some EL3 owners on this board. Thanks.
When was Setra rejected by Greyhound I see the Serta S407 all the time here at the bus station and have for over a year talking to the Greyhound drivers they love the S407 I don't where you got the rejection info from?
I don't know how many VanHools Greyhound has but I know of 5 I personally saw in Idaho and Nev on a trip they were the new TX models one nice looking bus with the paint scheme and the dog on the sides here you do see a lot of the new D but not many older one
You saw Greyhounds in Idaho? Greyhound's only route through Idaho is Denver-Portland and I've never seen or heard about a Van Hool on that route. It's usually a Denver-based D4505, sometimes a Blue G4500.
Greyhound tested the Setra's but did not place any major order, the order for that year (2013) went to MCI and Prevost.
I can assure you Greyhound has no Van Hool TX40/45 units, I have their full roster with VIN's. Perhaps it was a late-model C2045 or a CX45?
Where are you? I'm in Reno.
Anyways, I'm looking for info on the EL3 right now, and really EL3's have barely anything to do with Greyhound except Greyhound Canada had a few 1998 EL3's now mostly sold to Rocky Mountain Railtours because they apparently failed hard at line-haul. That's why I'm asking about the EL3 right now.
I don't know or care I just see the buses that English outfit is going to buy from all a few of the X3 are showing up here also I am in AZ right off I 40
Swadain: you seem to know it all!!! Disrespect for straight answers is just plain rude! Don't ask if you don't want to know! A man with your means and loaded mile potential should be nothing but new anyway with warranties and a loaner bus when your is in shop..That is just good business.. How many spare buses will you have with a 15-16 yr old fleet and by the time you buy (2 yrs) they will be almost 20 yr old.. The market is what it is.. to play you got to pay. Shouldn't have problem financing with a 135,000 loaded mile contract= 800,000 to 1 mil yr contract. The late 90's with your great contract is a bad choice. Just my opinion.. Bob
I don't get the point about the D being better than a E both buses of the same year have the same running gear the E just is more plush with a few more features simple reasoning tells you the E is highly sought after or their resale value would be in bottom of the barrel and they are not
FWIW why not Vanhool ABC the Vanhool dealer in USA is the outfit that done all the the rehab on the 400 MCI buses lol I am sure the redone MCI will have a few Vanhool parts but I'll ask Mark today how many Vanhools are in the Greyhound fleet he will know
Well it wasn't my lying eyes I spoke with Mark the TX Vanhools were coming from their FL location on the way to Greyhounds Bolt in Portland where the paint scheme was wrapped with Bolt's colors
Greyhound has a 5 year lease on 25 Vanhools 5 Tx and 20 of the CX models and they are working on another lease order with ABC doing all the maintenance
If you can't afford the bus you want why are you whining about it on a BUS CONVERSION board??>>>Dan
double post
Sorry, I'm not trying to be rude, I'm just asking for help, and I asked 'cause I want to know but nobody has "straight answers" right here. I'm not being disrespectful to straight answers when there's no straight answers. Please tell me when someone has explained why the EL3 is so expensive and if they have gotten fixed. Those are the questions I asked, but people are talking about Greyhound Setras, Prevosts, and Van Hools instead, which undoubtedly gets me agitated and, I'm sorry that I've come across as rude, but everyone tips over when asking for help about EL3's and getting told about everything OT. I haven't really found out anything right now except that Greyhound leased some Van Hool TX45's that are going for BoltBus Seattle which makes sense because they're not on the roster, and except that all buses can catch on fire and I do know some Greyhound DL3's caught on fire before rebuilds.
Am I being rude? Maybe I am, but I'm not trying to be mean, just look at my OP, I simply looking to know:
Why is the EL3 so expensive?
and
Did they fix the electronic and componentry problems that were prevalent in the early EL3's?
Those were my two original questions, I was not rude in asking them, and yet nobody has even tried to answer those questions, instead insisting that I buy new buses which is not what I asked about. Yes, I do know a lot about Greyhound having studied Greyhound history for years and discussed that company with many of its own employees, plus following every new release and article that comes public about Greyhound, however I was only saying what I know, not trying to act like a "know-it-all". But what am I supposed to do when I ask about EL3's and people respond about everything but EL3's (other than saying they "can't be that bad")?
I apologize if this sounds demanding, but with all due respect, I'm looking for help with EL3's, not for "Greyhound has some leased TX45's going to BoltBus Seattle" and not for "just buy new buses". That's a straight answer? I've gotten no straight answers, sir. I did not ask about used vs. new buses. And even Greyhound has used J4500's in line-haul service. I only heard that 130,000-mile figure on a news release and I can indeed cite that source.
Quote from: Swadian on August 25, 2014, 05:44:45 PM
I simply looking to know:
Why is the EL3 so expensive?
and
Did they fix the electronic and componentry problems that were prevalent in the early EL3's?
Here's a straight answer to your first question: The EL3 costs what it costs because that is what the market dictates. You apparently perceive it as expensive or overpriced; that's a viewpoint for you and immaterial to the market -- obviously there is someone else out there happy to pay the price. When someone else isn't, the price will fall. Meanwhile, the market doesn't care whether you are in or out. Either you can afford the bus or you cannot; understanding why it costs what it does isn't going to make any impact on that bottom line. No one here can guarantee you what the bus is going to cost in a couple years when you're ready to buy anyway.
As to your second question, I neither know nor care. Others here have given you a wealth of valuable and relevant information on competing models and alternatives. That you don't value their input tells most of us all that we need to know. After this diatribe, I think you'll now have better luck doing your due diligence elsewhere.
Cheers, John
I'm sorry, but nobody has given me options of competing models. They've mainly talked about the TX45 and CX45 models which entered production after the E4500 exited production so they're not even on the same more thanpage, so to speak.
After consulting many in the industry, I've narrowed it down to the 102D3/102DL3, 102EL3, XL-45/XL-II, and old H3-45. Nobody has mentioned those models on this thread and those are the models that were competing against the EL3/E4500 until the rise of the J4500 in 2004. Out of those models, the most expensive is the EL3, and yet some EL3 ads have been on for months with no one buying, and the prices still don't drop.
If anyone could please tell me why a EL3 costs a H3-45 from the same year, that would explain half my questions. And again, a TX45 is not even an option for me, because it's too new.
Before saying new buses are better, DOT testing has shown a D4505 gets -1 mpg compared to the old D4500. Need the links to the test results?
And Arrow's own website says they have 168 coaches, not 400 coaches. Don't know where that poster got that info.
Where did I says 400 coaches I believe I said buses they have other divisions besides Arrow Stage Lines like 3 in Phoenix look it up since you like the web they are big into school buses yes they are in the entertainer buses also, but 170 coaches in the Arrow Stage Lines sounds about right if you like I can call Steve and get a total number of buses or coaches
Please, I'm just looking for technical information on the EL3. And again, not trying to be rude, but 24 posts later, no technical information on the EL3. I guess I should've worded it better. My bad. Sorry if I wasted your time.
I told you from the beginning the people I know like Arrow and a couple of casinos here love the coaches,I do a little work for the casinos and I never heard of major problems I don't know if they are over priced or not but they sell, as you know the E and J have been the best selling coach for years there has to be a reason
good luck on your venture
Quote from: Swadian on August 25, 2014, 07:58:13 PM
Please, I'm just looking for technical information on the EL3. And again, not trying to be rude, but 24 posts later, no technical information on the EL3. I guess I should've worded it better. My bad. Sorry if I wasted your time.
no one here has a fleet of EL3's to give you a definitive answer...you are on a CONVERSIONS web site, apparently the coach you are referring to is not a popular candidate....yet.
But I thought the E was MCI's primary conversion coach until they started offering the J4500 for conversions. And I've heard (emphasis on "heard") many times that the J was an E with D componentry, apparently the E had "horrible" componentry and had to get replaced by D componentry but that meant losing the electronic suspension which was supposed to give the E a "silky smooth ride". I have no idea what components people are talking about.
I know the J has been selling very well, but what's the big difference between the J and the E? No electronic suspension? What's electronic suspension vs electronic stability control?
And I know nobody here has a fleet of E's, but no one even has a E4500-C, the conversion model? Surely the basics can't be that different.
This makes me quite confused: http://www.mcicoach.com/service-support/serinfo/serinfo12B.htm. (http://www.mcicoach.com/service-support/serinfo/serinfo12B.htm.)
Again, all this is stuff I've heard, no confirmation and no citations. That's why I'm asking here, but if many people have H3-45, XL-II, and J4500 conversions, why not a E4500-C?
The E's are a nice bus I have friend in San Diego that bought a factory shell with slides a few years ago he has been converting
I've always believed that when you buy newer coaches you are buying more than the bus, ie financing, parts availability, service and tech support and resale value. You do your research and you throw in with the manufacturer that will support you. When it came time for my company to start buying new buses (1998) we evaluated them all. MCI, Prevost, Van Hool, even Irazar and the Bluebird distributor even dragged in a new 3 axle coach much to my amusement. We drove and evaluated the E and D MCI and the XL and H and the T945 which was VanHool's big bus at the time. We chose Prevost and were NEVER sorry. The new E turned out to be a disaster and as you know most of the early ones had to be returned to the factory. I knew the new platform would be problematic and it sure was. Our next new coach order was three years later for 3 more new ones and we looked very hard at the J model and liked it. But not enough to sway us away from Prevost (such as disc brakes). We bought XLII's that time. They were cheaper than the J too. Now, I understand that you are inquiring about the used coach market. If you are looking at buses with 150K to 200K miles to start out with you better hope they had great maintenance, and better have a spare. A lot of small operators run the hell out of them while in warranty and never put a wrench on them then dump them. IMHO nobody can beat Prevost tech support. We actually have had them come into our shop on more than one occasion and replace componants that were way out of warranty for no charge what so ever. An we didn't even have to do the work. As for Van Hool, after 8 years they were worth half as much on the market as the same year Prevost. I rest my case. Don't know why folks are asking more for a used E these days especially a '99 'cause in my opinion they are junk. I have a friend in MN that owns an all MCI fleet and he had an E that was so bad that he had to trade it in on a new J just to get rid of it. OK, let the flames begin.
Thanks Boomer, appreciate your informative reply. See, that's why I'm really confused about the E and hence why I started this thread on this board in the first place. Now there's really no reason, I guess, why the E is selling for so much these days.
Do you know why exactly the early E's were returned to the factory? Did they ever manage to fix the problems? I know the E was the great big fad back in 1996, then turned into a massive flop by 2004.
Having never owned any MCI's newer than a couple '85-86 A models I have stayed out of all this.
But I have known several friends/associates that had E models and were sorry they did!
The 3 biggest problems I know of on the '98-99 E models were;
#1) the electronic suspension was a nightmare and last I heard they still go thru control modules like mad @ $3000 ea.
#2) they were designed poorly and for some reason the windshields would just "POP" out if sealed up tight on a hot day! (personally saw it happen on MCI's Lebanon, TN sales lot one day)
#3) All the plastic luggage bay doors and stuff were cheap and either fell off or warped so bad you wished they'd fallen off!
Those are the 3 things I heard the most complaints/warnings about when we were shopping for newer buses!
Now back to why you weren't getting the answers you were looking for on this board.
Most folks on this board have either bought a used seated coach and converted it themselves or bought one already converted and modified it to their liking.
Very few store bought conversion shells here!
Clifford aka "Luvrbus" is by far the most knowledgeable busnut here and also by far has the most connections in any of the bus markets be it professional conversions, home conversions, or seated!
So even though he may not have given the answers you were looking for he gave you STRAIGHT answers!
That's just my 2 cents worth ! (which along with a couple bucks will get you a cup of coffee!)
;D BK ;D
I know, I just kinda freaked out earlier in the thread I guess, I think I was really frustrated or something.
BK, have some A's? I heard they have some frame problems but nothing too bad. I saw a 102A3 ex-Storer conversion here in Reno, a 1986 I think. Sat around for a day then drove away.
I heard from a Phoenix mechanic named Robert Moore, who has a 1969 MC-7 conversion, said he saw some Volvo 9700's with the same popping windshields. He said the windshields on the Volvos get warped and mangled before popping. I don't know if the E windshield would just pop out or get damaged then pop out? I heard the Volvo ones would be sealed up properly but it would get warped in the middle and then pop out.
It seems to me that the J4500 has the same windshield as the E but it doesn't pop out all the time?
How often do they go through the ECU modules? I heard a Greyhound G4500 has the fan guard fall off and destroy the fan after running 5,000 miles on the odometer. I know that's not the suspension, but pretty d**m bad.
Don't understand the plastic luggage doors either, the J also has plastic doors as does the H, AFAIK. Also the G had plastic doors and they fell off all the time but they were built in Sahagun at cheap labor prices, and even the G luggage doors have been re-secured or so I hear. If the doors are about to fall off, can one just re-secure them?
Well, I looked for pics and found this GLC EL3 damaged: http://www.busdrawings.com/greyhoundca/102el3/gh1088.jpg. (http://www.busdrawings.com/greyhoundca/102el3/gh1088.jpg.) Now sold to Rocky Mountain Railtours according to a GLC source.
Is this a replaced bumper? http://www.kevinsbusrail.com/greyhound/gray-line/gry-line_1094.jpg. (http://www.kevinsbusrail.com/greyhound/gray-line/gry-line_1094.jpg.)
Another bumper fell off? http://www.kevinsbusrail.com/greyhound/gray-line/gry-line_461.jpg. (http://www.kevinsbusrail.com/greyhound/gray-line/gry-line_461.jpg.) Looks like undercarriage damage too.
Here's something I found on the Greyhound discussion group which I'm part of: https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/greyhoundthroughexpress/conversations/messages/14760. (https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/greyhoundthroughexpress/conversations/messages/14760.)
Right now I don't understand how the heck LV Bus Sales is selling a 1999 EL3 for $109,000. They are selling a 1999 Prevost H3-45 with less than a quarter the mileage for only $84,995. Both Detroit 60 with Allison B500. I know there's got be plenty of H3-45 owners here, a lot better than a EL3?
They can all build junk I guess we bought a brand new 1997 Prevost conversion the first year for IFS that my friends was a turd in a punch bowl not the conversion but the bus we ended up after 3 years getting our money back that bus has never been seen or sold ever again that I can find lol it was replaced with a 1974 Eagle which is still on the road
The part I don't understand is why some love the bus and some hate it at Arrow his pecking order is Setra 1st MCI 2nd and the H's at the bottom which he doesn't buy any longer that is probably a pissing contest between him and Prevost about something I know they were upset about the down time on the D13 Volvo engine in the H's ::) I don't where they rate the few VanHools they own
possible explanation on EL3---fresh engine--fresh trans--If not that old of coach miles is on borrowed time. In coach use 600,000 miles is about done. trucks run them a Million sometimes. Another EL3 on e-bay now for 50grand.. We all dream a perfect world.. We let you know--Most schools won't except anything over 5 yrs old. Also pointed out reality of cost of having a extra coach or having to subcontract trips because of breakdowns.. It's your show to make or break.. Busting is hard (been there) so when we share it is past experience. Get down to it the basic drive line is the same in most. Computer problems were pointed out as well as body panel problems. If you plan on running 16 yr old coaches buy in threes and hope to keep 2 on the road and have a plan B with another charter operator. Lost service news gets around quick.. Reputation is everything. I'm out of this discussion.. This reply was for other readers as you have made up your mind.. or just stirring sh-t.. Bob
LOL probably new modules for the multiplex wiring system Bob,any bus with the CAN or Multiplex wiring are a night mare.Prevost is giving it try and my understanding it is eating their lunch with the modules costing 1000+ bucks for each heck you could have run wires and relays to each component and do away with the lap top and software for 1 module
They all have problems or there would be no need for the 10 million dollars service centers all over the USA Prevost has 10 in USA and Canada plus the Volvo truck dealers MCI has 7 and Vanhool has 6 ::) someone pays for those there would be no need for those if we lived in a perfect world
Sometimes I think there are more GMC PD4104s out on the roads as conversions than there are MCI "E" models in revenue service!
;D
Quote from: Swadian on August 25, 2014, 11:32:24 PM
I know, I just kinda freaked out earlier in the thread I guess, I think I was really frustrated or something.
Most busnuts doing their own conversions aren't using EL3 coaches yet because they cost way more than most want to spend on a bus. There are still lots of folks here buying 1970s and 1980s buses cheap for bus conversions. If someone wanted to spend $90,000 on an EL3 they could probably find a pretty decent Prevost already converted for not much more dollar wise.
Most of the users here have never run a bus company with passenger coaches. It is like going to a forum for classic cars and asking about the reliability of an early 1990s Chevy.
I had a nice conversation with driver about 14 years ago. He said that while the MCI E was nice bus as far as ride and comfort plus great looks, it had alot of things that left a bad impression for many. One of the biggest issues is that the tag axle is of the steerable type and could not be locked out. As a result, some of the earlier E models had rear damage because they swung out too quickly although some drivers may have not been used to it either. But regardless, the ablilty to lock it out was omitted. The J4500 I think is safe to say is basically a much much improved version of the now discontinued E4500. I never hear to many bad things about them. As E4500 may very well be a good deal but as others have said, the market will determine it.
I've seen Greyhound odometers in excess of 1,600,000 miles, so only 600,000 seems amazingly low. Also, Greyhound made a news release saying their average unit runs 130,000 miles a year, they have 1998's in service so that would be over 2,000,000 miles already.
I heard some drivers prefer the higher driver's seat of the E over the H.
Bob is talking about the engine you are lucky to get 700,000 miles on a series 60 or other engines in a bus.I saw the Mexican bus line that was Greyhound pull the 60's at 400,000 miles at Stewart and Stevenson in El Paso
I bet they don't do it now with a rebuild costing 50 to 60 grand for series 60 or more for the DD13 engine
You mean Americanos? Yeah, they were horrible to ride.
Greyhound new release somewhere said that rebuilding the DL3's cost $120,000 but that wasn't just a powertrain rebuild, it was apparently a complete rebuild.
So now I'm getting Arrow likes the E more than H? But most people seem to like the H more? Do drivers complain about the H driver position being too low?
Has anyone here driven an EL3?
It's a pissing contest with Steve and Prevost it has been going for several years now and I don't ask why
Then the E is just no good compared to the H and J?
I'm guessing this is a rebuilt Detroit 60 in a H? http://www.lasvegasbussales.com/coach-buses-for-sale/used-bus-1999-prevost-h3-45-highway-coach-58-passenger-c12656. (http://www.lasvegasbussales.com/coach-buses-for-sale/used-bus-1999-prevost-h3-45-highway-coach-58-passenger-c12656.)
I see MCI's E, supposed to challenge the H head-to-head, has failed miserably and ended up getting replaced by the J.
After looking at the ad for coach buses for sale I'd say buy you a few and go for it.
You need to speak with someone like Jim Michaud that has owned all different types of buses and does the appraisal work for many customers ::) he has 2-1997 Xl 45 Prevost for sale one runs you can buy it for 18 grand or less the other with a blown 11.1 series 60 you can buy for around 8 grand for 25 grand you can have 2 one running 1 for parts.
You will find all the operators dump the buses around 700,000 miles no matter what brand Boomer gave you info about buying new the payments I doubt would be any higher than the maintenance on a million mile bus and the big boys have a finance program for a start up company or did
I think MCI made a big mistake with the E. They were competing with their own product line by having three buses; E, J & D. And the GHL G made in Mexico, (we called them "Gina's" lol) what a joke. The J quickly outsold the E and it's been downhill ever since. Another example of MCI's financial problems over the decades. You look at the other manufacturers, Prevost, VanHool and Setra all only have two platforms to choose from. One factor with the Prevost line is that they are a mature platform, the H set the standard for high floor coaches when they came out 25 years ago and the X has been around longer than that. They just keep refining the platform instead of constantly bringing out new models. You seem to place a lot of credence with what Greyhound does. That's a mistake. Nobody operates a company like they do. Look and get advise from old well established operators that TAKE CARE of their equipment like it should be. You mentioned Storer Coachways, that is a good example. Another is Royal Coach in San Jose. Or try the Colburn's at Pacific Western in Calgary. Just MHO.
MCI had the best of intentions with the E. they wanted to offer the widest selection after NEOPLAN USA went defunct. The D was considered the standard coach and the E was the premium coach. The J came along to bridge the gap between standard and premium while the DINA line was meant as a low cost alternative to the rest of the line. The J was such an improvement over the E, it became the top line coach with the D still being standard to low cost alternate with DINA out of the picture. Now with the MCI spaghetti plate arrangement with SETRA, the SETRA line could be considered the premium line about the J.
We also the G4500 "Ginas" after Dina and G4500! ::)
I was intending to pay all at once instead of in payments. That's why I was not considering new coaches. Especially since the D4505 was tested to get less MPG than a D4500 due to EGR/SCR per USDOT Altoona Bus Testing.
How do you see a recently-rebuilt Detroit 60 from a beat-up Detroit 60?