My name is Jim, I joined the site because my wife and I are interested in buying a bus conversion. We have wanted a bus for a long time and the possibility of buying one has kind of found us.
About me: I am a programmer and have worked on all kinds of things electronic and mechanical my whole life, I am not great at working on anything specific just good all around knowledge. I recently purchased a 1975 Airstream and have been restoring it, I am sure it will be a work in progress for a while but I have it to the point of using it for camping.
The bus that found me is not officially for sale, but the owner wants to get rid of it. We looked at it tonight and we are very interested but unsure of what a good price is to offer for it, we don't want to offend the owner but don't want to over pay either. We are looking at a 1958 GMC bus with an original 6-71 engine with around 250,000 miles. The bus was professionally converted in what seems to have been in the 80's, the owner used it for 10 years and has let it sit for the last 5 years. I know that it has a new clutch and has had some work done to it, he thinks that it had fuel system upgrades the last time he had it worked on. The bus is definitely in need of being cleaned up externally and internally it is in no way ready to use.
For sure I know that the batteries are all bad as well as all 6 tires. The right side windshield has a crack in it, and the front door and rear engine compartment door need to be aligned they look like they are not closing correctly but both do operate. The refrigerator is bad (Smells like ammonia) and the bathroom looks like it could have been getting wet (Maybe a vent leak) but the bus does not really have a musty smell or anything. The paint on the roof and side stripe are peeling and cracked, I also can tell that all of the side windows will need new gaskets. The interior albeit very outdated is still in pretty nice condition.
I do not know how much they paid or are expecting to get, and they want me to make an offer. Does anyone have an idea of what it would be worth by the description. If I had to make an offer on my own I would think around 4500 would be fair for me, but I would love some guidance on what it really is worth. I know in order to just get the bus to a point of being able to safely drive it I an looking at a minimum of 3k in tires and batteries alone.
I posted this on another site as well, jut trying to gather as much info as possible.
Thanks for reading,
Jim
one thing I would consider, what is the total amount of money that I would want to invest add that to the $4500 thought.
then I would go look at all the coaches I could find ( online, nearby etc.) and compare those to the one you are looking at now.
Although it has sat for 5 years, with a battery it should run and drive (albeit not to your safety standard)... if it will not move at highway speeds, I would look elsewhere.
Jim,
If you post your location, and the location of the bus, there might be a "busnut" nearby who could help evaluate it. There are still a lot of us GM fans around.
Steve Toomey
PAbusnut
(currently suffering from TBWD syndrome)
Sorry Steve I probably should have posted that, I live right off of RT 80 exit 12 in NJ and the bus is located in Dover NJ.
Welcome. Newbie busnut here as well.
We recently bought a 1958 4104 as well. 3596 specifically. We paid about 1/2 of what you are thinking offering but after a few months have quite a bit more into it in parts. Couple thousand actually. Picked up ours in a "fire sale" sort of situation so that may have affected price. Labor has so far been paid for only in sweat.
Ours was in similar shape overall to what you are describing. Took us a month of intermittent tinkering to get her road ready. Batteries are not cheap and tires are about as far from cheap as you can get. We lucked out and have not had to do tires (yet), little bit of weather cracking but still within safety range.
Not sure on glass prices, but I bet 300+ per windshield side.
We had all the service records since new and the chassis has 1270000 miles on it. The odds that the bus you are looking at only has 250k on it are zero. When new in the 1950s, transit buses were in continuous serviceand per the records for ours, our bus had nearly 750000 mi on it by 1961. Most were retired from revenue service,from what I have read, when they had 1, 000, 000+ miles.
Anyway, its a fun project so far. Just make sure you are realistic on time and money budget! We budgeted a year of time and about 10k over that time to get things how we want them
Thanks for the advice Kanda. I know that the owner as all of the records too, although I have not seen them so I agree about the milage probably being more. I am looking at it the same way we are in no rush to get it to be 100% functional and I will try to do as much as possible myself. We know that we are going to spend upwards of 10k in renovations alone and will not get it back if we ever sell it but that is how hobbies like this are. Glad to hear that the windshield will be around 300 I was figuring way more
Welcome Jim !! I`m new here too ,wish I`d done what your doing and asking ??`s fore I bought. No regrets though!! :-) ( So far!! )
Link to some valuable info>>>>> http://www.busconversions.com/bbs/index.php?topic=11781.0 (http://www.busconversions.com/bbs/index.php?topic=11781.0)
and keep ax`n ??`s Good luck!
Jim,
I live in central Pa. If you could send me several pictures of prospective coach, maybe we could hook up to look at it. Had a 4104 in family for several years, so know some about them.
Heck, offer him 3k cash and show up with a handful of hundreds and a list of pricing of things that you know it needs. They might take it!
Lots of good info on here. Without this site and the bno bulletin board I never would have bought ours. Makes troubleshooting easier when there is so much information online from those who have "been there and done that".
Ours has a rebuilt 671 4 head with jakes, wipers converted to electric, alternator conversion, and I think a different geared a axle than stock as I had it out last wk on the highway and at about 1900 rpm we were easily holding 70mph on the flat.
Good luck!
Heck, if your deal doesnt work out, pm me as we could consider parting with ours for the right deal. I have a lot of projects right now and love this one, but work and kids has my time short :(
We were thinking about offering lower, it is tough when someone tells you to make an offer. I think that it is a really good bus, the conversion was done in a way that they did not ruin the bus part of it. They reupholstered the driver seat rather than replace it and they also left the handrails around the steps and drivers seat. They have an older split air conditioner so that it is not on the roof, and they also did not cover up any of the windows.
Quote from: eagle19952 on August 15, 2014, 07:17:43 PM
Although it has sat for 5 years, with a battery it should run and drive (albeit not to your safety standard)... if it will not move at highway speeds, I would look elsewhere.
Moving a bus that won't motivate itself is very expensive. If the bus cannot be driven, your price competition is the scrap dealer & you can bet the scrap dealer will subtract tow costs from any offer.
edward
Quote from: shelled on August 16, 2014, 10:04:21 AM
Moving a bus that won't motivate itself is very expensive. If the bus cannot be driven, your price competition is the scrap dealer & you can bet the scrap dealer will subtract tow costs from any offer.
edward
I am pretty sure that I have someone that can move it, I talked to him today. That is one good thing since it is only about 30 miles away, if it was farther I would really have to factor that into the price.
Pen, I'm a newbie to this bus nut thing and can tell you this, IT'S ADDICTING once you start into it. There are a lot of bus nuts on this site that are very helpful with about any question you may have, guys here have seen it all. Myself I'm bring back to life a 1964 GM PD-4106. It sat for the last three years, I knew the PO who happened to be a buddy, he passed away. So when his widow came to me it was a no brainer, as I already had history with this bus and always wanted a bus. It's like you said, this bus found us. When we drove it home, there was no feeling like it. Since then I have parked it my driveway and my wife and I have started on her. I'm in charge of the exterior and mechanics, my wife the remodel of the inside (except for driver's area). Like your bus we needed to replace two Windows and two tires, servicing the 8V-71, I think the oil bath air filters, I was bit. We look forward to our first road trip and haven't looked back, good luck with your purchase.
When someone won't tell me what they want for something, I usually low-ball it. I figure if they take it, I got a good deal. If they say it's too low, then they know what they want, and
usually will reveal it at that time. If they don't I let them keep sitting on it, move on, and never look back.
Those dreams don't always work out for you Jason come to my mind the young man was so happy with his purchase he had tranny problems in OKC then dropped a valve in the engine last I heard he was sitting in OK working at a job to get enough cash to fix the monster or get back home with his family. One does need to be careful buying a 50 or 60 year old bus BTW has anyone heard from Jason did he sell the bus or having it repaired ? your heart breaks for that young man and his family
Jim, I re-read your post more than once, because of the question I had in my mind. You don't mention whether it's a coach (have to be a PD-4104 from that year), or a transit (probably TDM/TDH 4512 if its a 35-footer, TDM/TDH 5107 or 5108) if it's a 40-footer. If you can see the builder's plate, it'll tell you -- or post a picture if you aren't sure. The syntax of a GM builders plate is PD-4107-1080. Translation Parlor Diesel (i.e., an over the road coach) - 41 passengers, 07th model in the series -- serial number 1080. TDM is a Transit (city bus) Diesel (or G for Gas), M for mechanical (stick shift) H for hydraulic (automatic transmission.
There's a reason for my question. How you intend to use the bus may change whether the vehicle is suitable for you. Coaches tend to have more storage space, generally higher highway speeds. Transits have worked quite well for some members, all in how it's set up and how you use it. Standard transmission will get you better fuel mileage, but can be an issue in other areas. One member who used to be quite active on here (Spaceship Buffalo) found that the high first gear of his stick shift coach prohibited him from some areas with steep hills, so he bought a 4108 that had an automatic. If you want to go off-roading, neither is a good choice -- a schoolbus with its high clearances may be just the ticket. Coaches and Transits don't like to go off the pavement.
That could be a more important question than relative prices.
As for me, knowing that the market is so far down that if my coach doesn't sell in the next few months, it may be on its way to the scrapper -- I wouldn't worry about insulting the seller unless you go way below scrap price. If he/she has asked you to make an offer, start low (perhaps 2 or 2.5K). That preserves more cash for items you know it needs. The worst they can do is say "no" -- but if they come back with a counter, it's up to them to be reasonable and not insult your intelligence (their saying $10k to you would be as insulting as you saying $800 to them). The worst that can happen is you don't have a meeting of the minds. In that case, remember that this is a buyer's market -- there's a lot of stuff out there for essentially dimes on the dollar.
Hope this helps.
Arthur
All this lowball buying and scraper prices, I wonder what my 1991 Prevost with 72,000 miles would bring at the scraper?
Quote from: muldoonman on August 17, 2014, 03:57:33 PM
All this lowball buying and scraper prices, I wonder what my 1991 Prevost with 72,000 miles would bring at the scraper?
Hmmmmm find out what scrap price is and I'll give you that and a dollar more ;D
Quote from: harleyman_1000 on August 17, 2014, 04:09:43 PM
Hmmmmm find out what scrap price is and I'll give you that and a dollar more ;D
Ballpark around $3,500.
Quote from: Runcutter on August 17, 2014, 01:59:32 PM
Jim, I re-read your post more than once, because of the question I had in my mind. You don't mention whether it's a coach (have to be a PD-4104 from that year), or a transit (probably TDM/TDH 4512 if its a 35-footer, TDM/TDH 5107 or 5108) if it's a 40-footer. If you can see the builder's plate, it'll tell you -- or post a picture if you aren't sure. The syntax of a GM builders plate is PD-4107-1080. Translation Parlor Diesel (i.e., an over the road coach) - 41 passengers, 07th model in the series -- serial number 1080. TDM is a Transit (city bus) Diesel (or G for Gas), M for mechanical (stick shift) H for hydraulic (automatic transmission.
There's a reason for my question. How you intend to use the bus may change whether the vehicle is suitable for you. Coaches tend to have more storage space, generally higher highway speeds. Transits have worked quite well for some members, all in how it's set up and how you use it. Standard transmission will get you better fuel mileage, but can be an issue in other areas. One member who used to be quite active on here (Spaceship Buffalo) found that the high first gear of his stick shift coach prohibited him from some areas with steep hills, so he bought a 4108 that had an automatic. If you want to go off-roading, neither is a good choice -- a schoolbus with its high clearances may be just the ticket. Coaches and Transits don't like to go off the pavement.
That could be a more important question than relative prices.
As for me, knowing that the market is so far down that if my coach doesn't sell in the next few months, it may be on its way to the scrapper -- I wouldn't worry about insulting the seller unless you go way below scrap price. If he/she has asked you to make an offer, start low (perhaps 2 or 2.5K). That preserves more cash for items you know it needs. The worst they can do is say "no" -- but if they come back with a counter, it's up to them to be reasonable and not insult your intelligence (their saying $10k to you would be as insulting as you saying $800 to them). The worst that can happen is you don't have a meeting of the minds. In that case, remember that this is a buyer's market -- there's a lot of stuff out there for essentially dimes on the dollar.
Hope this helps.
Arthur
Thanks for the info, I did not ask about the model, and I did not realize that there was a difference. The owner told me that it was 35' I will look at the builder plate, we are supposed to meet with them in a week to discuss the price. I think that he told me that it was a San Francisco city bus when it was originally issued but I could be wrong either way I will find the model info next time.
If it isn't a 4104, but a city bus, I'd forget about it, unless you want to buy it for scrapping or some spare parts for a future 4104.
Please get the serial number if it's a 4104. That number will appear on the dash (builders plate) immediately inside the passenger entry door. Should read PD4104-???? A friend here keeps track of those surviving coaches by serial number. Also with that serial we'll tell you the original owner/history of the coach. Serial number is also stamped in "frame" inside the driver's tool compartment. That compartment is on left front corner below driver's window. (it has the bumper extension trim attached to it). Should be a small swing tab latch handle just below the bumper extension trim (bumperette) that must be operated to access that compartment. The serial number is stamped (about 1" tall text) deep inside toward the back of the compartment. Usually requires a flashlight, and degreaser, as it is always covered in grime.
Thanks
Jim,
I think you need to do a lot more research on the GM buses then figure out what will work for you. Don't jump on this deal, even if it's next to free unless you really know what you're getting into. As Runcutter said, "it's a buyers market". Some 35' Transits had highway gearing and might be suitable, but you'll probably be disappointed with a regular transit. If it was not built to run on the highway it won't make a very good motorhome. If you take your time, do some research, find a guy who knows GM buses and will talk to you about them, you're better off making a sound decision. If the seller won't wait, too bad, there are other deals out there. My only other suggestion is that I wouldn't buy it without driving it, even better if you can find a Detroit Diesel mechanic or someone off this board that's knowledgeable, to help get it going and diagnose any obvious problems.
Bryan
Vancouver BC
Quote from: qayqayt on August 18, 2014, 11:44:43 AM
Jim,
I think you need to do a lot more research on the GM buses then figure out what will work for you. Don't jump on this deal, even if it's next to free unless you really know what you're getting into. As Runcutter said, "it's a buyers market". Some 35' Transits had highway gearing and might be suitable, but you'll probably be disappointed with a regular transit. If it was not built to run on the highway it won't make a very good motorhome. If you take your time, do some research, find a guy who knows GM buses and will talk to you about them, you're better off making a sound decision. If the seller won't wait, too bad, there are other deals out there. My only other suggestion is that I wouldn't buy it without driving it, even better if you can find a Detroit Diesel mechanic or someone off this board that's knowledgeable, to help get it going and diagnose any obvious problems.
Bryan
Vancouver BC
Good to know about the gearing, I know that he drove it across the US and used it quite a bit for the first ten years that he owned it. Is there a way to find out about the gearing without doing a visual inspection. Can I ask about the rpm's at certain speeds or something like that, I would imagine that the gearing is decent since he drove it so much but you never know.
Again thanks for all I the useful info that everyone has given.
It's possible the rear end and transmission could have been changed. See if you can find out the model number and at the very least you'll know what the bus was delivered as. Anything with PD in the prefix is a highway coach (PD-4104). If the bus was built in 1958 it's not likely a fishbowl. If it's a transit, it may be an "Oldlook".
If you go to the Museum of Bus transportation website and click on "fleet" there's a 1959 PD-4104 listed. You'll find an Oldlook in their collection as well. If you click on it, a photo comes up. Also, if you click on this link: http://www.omot.org (http://www.omot.org) scroll to the bottom of the home page and you'll see "production lists". This is the Ohio Museum of Transportation and they have production lists for most common manufacturers. With the model and unit number you can see where that bus was originally delivered to.
Do as much research as you can. There are so many variables that it will make your head spin.
Quote from: muldoonman on August 17, 2014, 03:57:33 PM
I wonder what my 1991 Prevost with 72,000 miles would bring at the scraper?
I'm only a couple of weeks from dropping off an '89 Prevost at the local scrapyard if someone doesn't buy it. I'll let you know.
Cheers, John
The 4104's had three gear ratios available: 3.55, 3.875 and 4.11. The 3.875 is quite rare from what I've found. Approx top speeds @2200 are: 79mph, 73mph, and 69mph. Most coaches had the 4.11's as the 3.55's made starting out on a grade, quite a chore with some clutch slippage to get rolling from a stop. For mostly interstate usage, the 3.55's are great though.
Jim, if there's any way you can post a picture of the bus here, we'll be able to identify it. (Depending on where it came from, some of us may have driven it in service). That may help us give you more ideas to think about.
John, I'd be interested in what you get out of the Prevost. As you and I discussed, our 4107 is in the same boat -- one way or the other it'll be gone by Christmas.
Arthur
A bunch of years ago an old timer showed me how to check the gear ratio in my bus.
Not as easy as a car but same principle.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QisQfYmN0ng (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QisQfYmN0ng)
Forget that for a coach and it also depends whether car has positraction. Jack up only one set of duals. Rotate them exactly 2 revolutions while counting turns of driveshaft (mark a reference point on shaft and duals).Have used this for years.