It looks like I'm going to have to pull my rear drivers side wheels and hub and replace the bearings and possibly the axle. Ill post another thread when I get to the actual work but my main question here is what parts or tools are going to be hard to find to do the job?
Any insight is welcome. I have someone helping and we are both mechanically minded but it is the first time either of us have done heavy work on wheels/hubs.
Also - if you happen to be near Missoula MT, and want to help...pm me. Thanks.
-Sean
PS- Boomer, it ended up being the rear left wheel, like you said and not the right front wheel that I thought it would be.
Fulltiming somewhere in the USA
1984 Eagle 10S
www.herdofturtles.org (http://www.herdofturtles.org)
You double posted this.
:D
We did this on our bus, and did not require any special tools. I do not know your bus, of course, but most likely not much different then doing it on a typical truck.
Besides the bearings themselves, don't forget to buy the gaskets for the axle shafts.
Let me highly recommend you go ahead and replace both sides and get it over with. Once one side needs replacing, the other cannot be trusted for too long. Better now at home, then some day in the middle of nowhere on the side of a highway.
When we did ours, we also found that our rear end oil had not been replaced in years, and was whitish-gray, which means it was contaminated with water. Check your oil, and if it is dirty, go ahead and replace it.
Let me suggest you start early in the morning with your friend's help. Nothing more frustrating than discovering you need another part, and the store is closed.
:o
Hey: While you have it all apart, go ahead and carefully check all of your brake components and brake airlines.
Make sure you properly support your bus! You don't want it falling on you!
I wish you success, my friend!
Sean, if don't find any parts closer I have the parts here in AZ ,Don Fairchild dropped the parts off for another guy that lives in Montana that has sold his Eagle. Is it the axle or the axle housing ? call me if I can help with parts.
Pulling the hubs and axle is nothing major a little lift from a rental store works good to handle the heavy sucker,15/16 socket for the axle nuts, a 8 lb sledge hammer,a socket for the bearing nuts are nice but not a necessity no special tools needed, If you need to replace the axle housing that is a job and a 1/2 on a Eagle all the parts are here but a 1000 miles from you :)
good luck
Steve,
Thanks for the reply. Your post is encouraging. This is all new to me but its nice to know it's not a two week job of oil, grease and bloody knuckles.
Clifford - Hold on to those parts for me. I have an event coming up this weekend and won't be back to start on it until the 28th but I've got a good feeling I'm gonna need something from you. Ill have it shipped if I have to. It'll be cheaper then getting it towed and rebuilt at a truck stop.
Also - How hard is it to pull the axle? Do I need a puller tool of some kind? Anything that will make it easier?
Thanks Again.
You guys are great.
PS - A gift - Bonus bus pic from a bus nut we met here in Ronan -
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.tapatalk.com%2Fd%2F14%2F07%2F17%2Fbejehu5y.jpg&hash=060a6712f46e0ea956e3de312a3e9af79bd57f3b)
Fulltiming somewhere in the USA
1984 Eagle 10S
www.herdofturtles.org (http://www.herdofturtles.org)
Just remove the axle nuts and hit the center of the axle with a sledge hammer they pop loose you will see were it has been hit before ::)
What clifford says...the only thing really holding the axle in is the gasket goop the previous installer used and a dowel...
basically remember, for every action there is an equal opposite reaction...hit the sucker hard.
i prefer a long handle hammer.
What is the process to remove/replace the wheel bearings? Are they pressed in to the hub, on to the shaft, or what?
Brian
Not the best picture but this is what you are looking at..
I also think that Clifford meant nuts...
It has been my experience that the nuts should be taken off and spray Kroil or some similar..then put the nuts back on to protect the studs. seen some awful misses.
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1207.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fbb468%2Fdphalaska%2Fhub2.png&hash=50a784e5456e92703efeffe76116f0f522e3e784)
When I pulled the axles on my Prevost to replace the wheel seals, I purchased the axle nut socket- was under $15. from Napa and made it a lot easier when it came to re-torquing and adjusting the bearing play. Looks like a soup can someone took a hammer to. Will
Is that hub taper roller inner bearings and ball bearing or roller bearing outer? Just curious. I just did wheel bearings on our race car, with an aluminium hub. If you press them in or out cold they ruin the hub, so you need to heat it to around 250 - 300 degrees, what a pain standing there with a propane torch for 30 minutes, then what the heck do you do with a hub that is hot enough to start fires? You also freeze the new bearing races in the freezer, then they slip in pretty easy. Just a few taps.
Brian
just a reminder.. Don't put them in dry.. Seams as though over the last year I have heard of several failures rite after install. Even by professional shops. Don't depend on normal lube to be full proof instantly..One within 4 miles and had to have a spindle repair. enjoy the ride. Bob
Looking at that drawing, it has greased not oiled bearings. You have the axle flange, gasket, oil seal and another gasket. The oil seal runs on a seal surface on the end of the axle housing outside the threads. That seal keeps lube oil from entering the hub.
That was just a option in the parts book from Eagle Lee he will have oiled hubs
The largest percentage of rear axel bearing failures is the drivers side,,,,,,,,,due to the crown on most roads,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,think about it.>>>Dan
Quote from: Seangie on July 17, 2014, 07:00:02 AM
PS - A gift - Bonus bus pic from a bus nut we met here in Ronan -
Ronan, MT?
After driving in the seal & inner bearing, re-installing the hub onto the axle stub and BEFORE installing the outer bearing - pre charge the oil cavity that is between the bearings in the hub with the same gear oil that you are using in your differential. After you are all finished doing one/both sides, raise the axle on one side for about 5 minutes, then lower and raise the opposite side of the axle for about 5 minutes. This will ensure you have oil in the hubs. After letting it down to level and letting it sit for about 5 minutes, double check the differential oil level and top up as req'd.
One other item, clean or replace the diff vent!
Several ways to go about this,leave the tires and wheels on and slide them out with the drum and hub, on a piece of oiled tin,but I don't recomend it,its a pain to install everything and get proper torque on the axle nuts.
So placed on a sturdy jack stand or blocks after being jacked up,remove tires and wheels,this will require a 1" air gun and wheel nut sockets.
Remove axle nuts,smack axle flange with sledge hammer a couple times it should come loose from the hub,some axles have split cones in a few holes spaced around the axle,you may need to place a screw driver in the slot to work them off the stud.
Look to see if the drum is held on the hub with some large screws or if you can tell if it is a outboard drum,if so remove it now so you get rid of extra weight off the hub.
Next the outer axle nut may have a split washer behind it with a tang folded over a flat of the nut,using a small cold chisle push the tang back to the straight up position,use a thin wheel nut socket as stated in an above post to remove the axle nuts,using a cold chisle is a poor way to do this,it leaves chips of metal in the hub and mangles the nut.
When the nuts have been taken off then the hub and drum will come off.
The races can be driven out of the hub with a long drift punch and a decent size hammer
they can be installed the same way,I like to use a brass drift drive them in a sit won't mar the race as bad as a steel drift when it slips, putting the races in the freezer for a while before hand helps.
Seangie:
Nice Flxible bus! Did you meet the owner?
Aaron covered a lot of the nitty gritty. Separating the hub from the brake drum is a needless challenge but handling the combined weight of the drum and hub is a real pain. There's a tool made specifically for the job - kind of a 2 wheel cart with arms that grab the top of the drum and balance it. If you can find one of them its well worth your time because separating the drum and hub can be a major pain. Putting everything back together is dead simple with the wheeled thing - without it, not so much. I've also been told you can pull the axles leaving the wheels mounted by sliding the whole assembly out on a greased sheet of steel but I've never done that.
A couple of posters have touched on whacking the end of the axle to get it to pop out of the hub. Sometimes you really need to hit it hard if it has those little tapered cones holding it in. I have trouble hitting hard enough without worrying about hitting the ends of the studs but that may just be me. There's a tool that you can use to pull the little cones but I don't have one - pliers, hammer and a couple of small screwdrivers will do the job too, it just takes longer. Until they come out the axle won't release - once they're out it will spring free. Note that if you do have the cones they won't be on every stud so don't spend a bunch of time trying to find them if they don't appear to exist.
He won't have the screws to contend with on the drum just back of the slack adjuster they slide off,he will have a plug in the hub to pre charge bearings 1 qt will do both sides.
One place he needs to be careful is were the seal seats it is real easy to bend if hit and will cause the seal to leak.
You can remove the outer lock nut with 2 flat pieces of metal if you don't have the socket the inner nut will come easy,getting the 0.005 clearance Rockwell recommends can be challenging,Bob his Eagle will have those little suckers on all 8 studs
Quote from: luvrbus on July 17, 2014, 04:43:37 PM
That was just a option in the parts book from Eagle Lee he will have oiled hubs
Again Clifford is right.. :)
i just picked "any" drawing out of "Da Book" so Sean would have an idea of what to expect, Just protect the threads and hit that SOB. This is actually one of those times get a bigger hammer is a good idea.
like whackin some tie rod ends.
if you are doing this on gravel/asphalt do your self a favor and buy a sheet of plywood.
pallet jack, greased board, tire dolly, fork lift.
two guys and a greased plywood, easypeasy
I forgot about backing the brake off,makes it pretty rough to remove the drum if you don't.
When you have the hub off note the position of the seal in the hub,it should go in almost to the bearing and rest on a land,there are tools to put those large seals in and maybe you could borrow one from the garage you buy the seal from or take the hub with you and have them install the seal and inner bearing and race.
One other thing when you take the outer axle nut off just for grins measure how much tube sticks out past the inner nut,now you have a reference to go to when your installed back to this point, reason being is that when installing the hub with the seal in it you need to walk it up on the spindle,this is where the correct axle nut socket comes into play,those sockets are for use with a 3/4 ratchet,use it or a breaker bar not a 1/2 in set up,tighten the hub on the axle untill you no longer can, turning the hub as you go,now measure the distance from the end of the axle to that inner nut this tells you if you are in the same position as before.
Now back off the inner nut a turn or two turning the drum a little to free it up,in the above procedure the drum may no longer turn as you had it tight,now run it back up fairly snug not near as tight as it was to set the seal,back it off almost a half turn,put the outer nut keeper on and install the outer nut,now the the hub may have some slop to it before tighting the outer nut that slop will be taken up when you tighten the outer nut as this is slop in the axle threads,snug the outer nut pretty good and see if you still have in and out movement of the hub,if there is a very slight movement I would say your good to go,a hair loose is better than a hair tight,some people use a dial indicator to check this movement I never have,some one here will be able to tell you how to set it up to check.
If you hub has a plug in it and it come out that would be where to put oil in at to charge the bearings,put a qt of thew oil you use in the rear end in it and your good to go,no need to jack up one side of the bus to get oil to flow thru the axle tube to get out there,make sure the rerar end is full up to the plug on the housing and your good to go,don't forget to adjust the brake on that side.
I should have asked this first why do you need to change the bearings did the seal go out and loose oil and smoke them.
As I stated in my other post taking the complete assembly off as one unit is Ok coming off but when putting it all back together as one large unit it makes it really hard to set up the seal and axle end play when you have all that extra weight on there,thats why I suggested to break the assembly down.
Quote from: opus on July 17, 2014, 06:12:29 PM
Ronan, MT?
Yessir.
Quote from: Mex-Busnut on July 18, 2014, 06:20:59 AM
Seangie:
Nice Flxible bus! Did you meet the owner?
Steve - We did meet the owner his name is Robert. Its a beautiful bus in good condition. Nice guy too.
You guys are providing some great information. Im printing this thread up before I start. Ill be making a parts list and a tools list before I start and make sure I can find what I need.
Don - Do you have a copy of that PDF you can send me? Ive got a printed manual but it seems like the one page I need is missing. Ive got lots of stuff on replacing the brakes but not anything much on pulling the axle and replacing the bearings.
Thanks again guy - Y'all are awesome.
-Sean
Don - Do you have a copy of that PDF you can send me? Ive got a printed manual but it seems like the one page I need is missing. Ive got lots of stuff on replacing the brakes but not anything much on pulling the axle and replacing the bearings.
section 15 page 2 +3....
Quote from: Aaron on July 18, 2014, 08:27:34 AM
I should have asked this first why do you need to change the bearings did the seal go out and loose oil and smoke them.
As I stated in my other post taking the complete assembly off as one unit is Ok coming off but when putting it all back together as one large unit it makes it really hard to set up the seal and axle end play when you have all that extra weight on there,thats why I suggested to break the assembly down.
Aaron -
I'm assuming its the bearings at this point. Could be anything as I have not yet taken it apart to look at it. The symptoms are - road sounding noise (grinding maybe?) almost like a faint sound of a twin engine plane in the background. It was consitent with the speed of the wheel. I can feel a very very slight woble almost like a consisten up and down wobble not side to side and the temps on the drivers side drive wheel were about 20-25 degrees hotter than the other hubs. The heat was felt inside the bus as well wifey shot the floor of the bus and it was 20 degrees hotter on the drivers side over the wheel than on the passenger side. We don't have much insulation in the bedroom under the floor so all the heat comes right up when we are driving.
-Sean
well here's a few more pennies worth of my thoughts ...
Before I tore into that...
I would pull the the axle and catch all the oil in a small pan (not ferrous metal)
I would run a magnet through it...look for floating silver gray color
I would check the bearing adjustment.....with two (at least) 8 foot pry bars...
I would spin the tires...brakes released...and listen carefully for noise...
I would look at each individual roller in the outer cone....if each roller turns equally and simultaneously as the wheel is turning, I would think they are all good.
Very rarely does a bearing go bad without taking the seal out with it in my experience...
Quote from: eagle19952 on July 18, 2014, 01:04:42 PMwell here's a few more pennies worth of my thoughts ...
Before I tore into that...
I would pull the the axle and catch all the oil in a small pan (not ferrous metal)
I would run a magnet through it...look for floating silver gray color
I would check the bearing adjustment.....with two (at least) 8 foot pry bars...
I would spin the tires...brakes released...and listen carefully for noise...
I would look at each individual roller in the outer cone....if each roller turns equally and simultaneously as the wheel is turning, I would think they are all good.
Very rarely does a bearing go bad without taking the seal out with it in my experience...
Don - curious as to what else it could be?
I need a bus whisperer ;)
Fulltiming somewhere in the USA
1984 Eagle 10S
www.herdofturtles.org (http://www.herdofturtles.org)
loose brake shoe
rock in the drum
cracked drum
loose wheeel
bent brake backing plate...if you still have them ?
rock stuck in a tire groove
rock embedded in the tire trying to eat it's way into the air... :-\
really 20-25 degrees temp diff is not much...\\
PS believe it or not tire men on big jobs dig rocks out of tires...part of the job.
Shoulda fixed it here in Vancouver Sean. I have all the equipment. Good luck.
Boomer - No joke. Next time ;)
Fulltiming somewhere in the USA
1984 Eagle 10S
www.herdofturtles.org (http://www.herdofturtles.org)
I totally agree with the prior post. I've had lots of wheel seals go in many vehicles, only a few did I have bearings go and then the wheel seals were the precursor. If you don't have oil soaking into your brake drums or running down between the tires, you might not have a bearing problem at all. I'd get the wheels in the air and spin them, try rocking them, try pushing them in and out and see if you have much play. Hopefully it's just a rock someplace that it shouldn't be. Will
;D don't count the old drop box out either it will send all kinds of messages to the drivers side on a Eagle or MCI
Quote from: luvrbus on July 20, 2014, 07:31:33 PM
;D don't count the old drop box out either it will send all kinds of messages to the drivers side on a Eagle or MCI
Cliff - It would be my rookie assumption that the noise from the drop box would vary with the shifting of gears and the noise I'm hearing is consistent with the rpm of the tires regardless of the gear I'm in. Let me know if I'm wrong. The more info I have to figure this out the better.
Thanks.
-Sean
Fulltiming somewhere in the USA
1984 Eagle 10S
www.herdofturtles.org (http://www.herdofturtles.org)
Are you saying it just at a certain rpm of the tire,most of the time on bad wheel bearings if one applies a little brake pressure while moving the sound will change not always but 99.5% of the time it will.
Really 20 degrees hotter on 1 side is nothing that could be from tire pressure , brakes or the sun on that side.
It not a big deal changing the bearings it is just nasty and heavy jack the baby up and spin the wheels you will feel it if the bearings are bad,99% of the time the seal will go first you may have caught it time before the seal went.You need to get the bad boy jacked up and narrow it down IMO, Mark needs a trip to MT If I was closer I would help in a heart beat this AZ heat is killing me ::)MT sounds so good.Check the drive shaft going into the drop box if you can move the yoke up and down the input shaft bearing is going out
good luck
Check the inside dual as it will make the same noise if it is broke. It happen to a friend this spring.
Wayne
Is this the most incredible way to get and give help, thru the exchange of information! Tom...
The drop box is after the transmission and runs at driveshaft speed, 1:1 ratio down to the pinion gear in the diff. So it runs at 3.7 times (or whatever the diff ratio is) times wheel rotation speed at all times. As soon as you get the wheels in the air and the axles out just give them a spin, you should be able to feel or hear a grumble. Put a six foot pry bar under the tire and lift up, you'll see if it moves. Any movement at all (like over 1/8th inch at the tire tread) means you need to at least inspect and adjust. One thing is that if the bearings are loose you get the movement but sometimes they spin smooth as silk. You need to adjust them to minimum/tight clearance and spin them to catch a slightly worn out bearing.
Edit: I know this is about identical to other earlier and perfectly correct advice, I just wanted to point out about the drop box varying directly with road speed, and that if a bearing is loose it can spin smooth, so you have to adjust out the loose (and ask why did it loosen in the first place) and then spin again...
You know what makes me laugh every single time? Aside from the air brakes the whole bearing/hub/ axle is virtually identical to the setup in my 1961 MG Midget... If you know how to work on that the stuff in a bus hub will not surprise you one bit, you just need bigger tools...
Brian