My recent trip to Charleston found my temps going up AGAIN while the MPH went up. I thought I had this problem fixed when we found the t-stats clogged with a shop rag, but obviously more work is needed.
At 70-75 MPH it would run 195+°
At 60-70 MPH it would run 180°-190°
Idling it runs 164°
After idling in rest area at 164° and then returning to interstate, at 70 mph, it will run at 180° and stay there for about 30 or so miles, them jump up 2° for about 30 miles and then jump again and again.
No coolant loss anywhere!
Tried the misters when it reached 199° once for 3 minutes (yes Susan timed it) and it dropped the temps to 187°.
3 minutes used ONE gallon of water so the misters ARE working but what is next? Thermostats and water pump were changed! I think having the radiator rodded out will probably help. Maybe some shop rag is still lodged and possibly moving, possibly not. I just don't know!
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Had mine in the shop last fall for service Ace and don't know if your bus has the same set up, but somebody had shut valve that controls belt tension and belts would slip at high seed. At idle it looked normal back there. Justin Griffith out of Granger Tx. found that little problem. Saved me another 3 hour trip to Houston Prevost.
Which fan do have the 30 inch or 32 inch it sounds like a air movement problem those plastic thermostatic fans lose a lot of pitch over the years at high speeds
good luck
I don't think the belt is slipping due to no traces but definitely gonna check to be sure.
I also DO need a new fan since the one if have now has a small break on one blade.
Any suggestions as to what fan will be best? I'd have to measure mine to see which it is!
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Ask someone with an Eagle and the 8v92 they can tell you about heat. As long a you stay below 210 you are ok, but it is better to keep it a cool as you can. I never got a large on but a lot of Eagle owners bought fans that could be adjusted. Some on will chime in and tell you where to get one and that should fix the problem.
Jack
You are probably right on the 1 st guess Ace I read the Hayden trouble shooting guide it is about what you described good cooling at low speeds bad cooling at high speeds points to the radiator according to Hayden I wouldn't run the engine at 210 normal is 175 to 195 degrees for 8v92 DDEC
good luck
Yea I'm thinking the tubes are clogged and it never ran above 185 before! I'm not a fan of running it in the 90 plus range. That's just puttin money in the shops pocket!
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I don't know when you last cleaned the radiator fins. Dust and residue build up can reduce efficiency too. Once a year, we buy a can of swamp cooler coil cleaner to spray into the radiators. There are probably even stronger coil cleaner chemicals that HVAC people use.
Lin the radiator was replaced about 2 years ago and it is clean now. Well I know I can see thru it pretty good so I suspect it's clean!
I really think there's more rag in the system and it's causing the problem.
Now to find someone local that can rod it out. Most local companies have closed because radiators today are replaced, not repaired!
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Ace -
Some random thoughts from the right side of the left coast:
1) Wind resistance. Takes a lot more energy to push that big, non-aerodynamic brick down the super slab at 75 mph vs 65. And as you know, with a two-stroke, more power being used equals more heat being generated.
2) Air Flow. In this case, is all of the air actually flowing thru the radiator? Are there gaps around the shrouding that could allow bypassing? As you know, MCIs are notorious for the rubber seal deteriorating around the rads and causing problems. Granted, you've got a Prevost, just wondering if something similar might be happening in your case.
3) Cooling Fan. As has already been mentioned, perhaps the cooling fan is having issues?
4) Coolant Chemical Mix. Anti-freeze is a lousy coolant. Good at keeping everything from freezing when it's cold, but at the normal 50/50 mix, it's not so good at keeping things cool. Since you're in FL, you could probably run a 70/30 water/coolant mix and not have any issues.
5) Possibly plugged radiator. Since it's only two years old, I wouldn't think this would be the problem, but wouldn't rule it out, either.
6) If you could figure out a way to take exhaust manifold temp readings while on the slab, you might be able to find out if there's a heat discrepancy somewhere in the exhaust system.
7) Muffler. Is it possible that you've got some type of restriction in the exhaust, perhaps internally to the muffler, that only shows up under certain conditions - high load, high rpm, high road speed?
Those are just a few thoughts that came to mind. . .
FWIW & HTH. . .
;)
RJ thanks for the many things to give thought to but to fill everyone in on what's been done from beginning read below!
Original radiator was replaced ONLY due to deterioration, no leakage and it NEVER ran above 185 at any speed.
New, (used 3 month old) radiator was shipped to me via ebay purchase wrapped in plastic and on a skid.
Un wrapped the radiator, hosed it off, let it dry and painted it gloss black.
Next day, Susan and I installed it with no problems.
Took our first hwy trip with others somewhere in SC and before we got out of Florida, it ran hot enough to illuminate the CEL. Cooled it down, topped it off and all was good since then except it's always ran in the HIGH 190's.
With help from other Busnuts, they recommended sealing the gap around the radiator since I DID in fact remove the original non working shutters. I did that! One also said to see if I had the original rock/air deflector under the coach. I DID NOT so I made one. I has removed the original black tank which left a large opening in the engine bay. I reinstalled that using it as a pan to hold all my Hoses and cables.
Still after all that no help!
I since said let's change the t-stats and water pump which I already had but never put in.
This is when we found the T-stats were clogged up with what appeared a red shop rag apparently was IN the radiator when shipped and I/We never seen and or caught!
Replacing the water pump also showed signs of red rag so the shop flushed out everything including the oil cooler. I wasn't there for that part so I'm stating what I was told.
Thinking we found the culprit, we travelled on but as you see, it still runs hot! Hotter than I really like!
Now I know you guys say 200 210 is ok but I find it really hard to buy that when before the radiator was changed it NEVER ran above 185° at any speed AND checking with Prevost, they too suggest no hotter than 190 on any given day and when I mentioned I lived In Florida, he bumped that to 195 MAX! Yea he says it won't shut down until it hits 215 but that's a safety thing nothing else. It's not meant to run there!
As for the muffler and all else? Everything was replaced NEW from exhaust gaskets to tail pipe so I do t think that's an issue.
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On the mechanical 8v92 the alarms go off at 205 and shutdown is 212 fwiw
That's still out of the norm from what it used to be!
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I would think that maybe like you said there is still more rag in the system. I would pull the t-stats and the water pump and see if more has come thru. Then maybe a wire or boroscope to check up the hoses and inside the top and bottom of the tank?
As far as the fan blade, I had a good experience with Crowley fans. went from a 6 blade to a nine.
Ace, I have been watching this thread.. I have tore apart my H radiator so I am aware of what you are going thru. I do have a question>> did you get a like for like radiator core? Did you pull the tanks off your radiator? Did you count the rows and cores?? Put another way, do you have a like for like radiator?
You mentioned that you ran hotter after the install. I question if your new radiator is doing the job? Do you have a material break down > gasket material, rag, or ?? that is blocking the flow? Or is the capacity not equal to what you had? Can you remove the radiator and remove the top tank..
just cause sometimes the obvious gets missed...any chance the temp probe got changed in the switch? ie your not hot you just look hot from the dash
Zero the radiator I bought came from an exact bus, same model, same year, everything! After removing my original, I compared radiator to radiator without pulling apart of course and they were identical. That's all I can go on re: comparison.
Zub
These temps I'm getting are from 3 sources.
Dash gauge
Silver leaf electronics gauge
Pro-Link
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Were me and it isn't but I would flush the system with whatever will eat material and not your engine a few times. leave the lower hose open when draining and then stick a hose in the upper hose and let it run to see what the flow is like. Pull upper and lower hoses off radiator and let the water flow through and see if it is clogged. Do the heat lines still carry water also and could it be clogged through it? Just some thoughts.
Dave
I agree with Dave flush the system in Reverse if that rag was in the thermostats it could also be in the top of the radiator
Rick
I am not sure but does the thermostat have a failsafe feature. I know my truck did and we would only see temps soar when we were going up a hill. I was able to drive for 20 miles before I could find an Auto parts store to change it. There was no rhyme or reason for it to go out but it did. Just on a drive to Tulsa the truck shut down and after it cooled it started again. I watched temp and drove it to where we were staying. The shop the next day wanted to pull the intake for $1000 and change the temp sensor. Of coarse I told them no and left. I went by Napa and bought the sensor for $30. I removed my alternator and my hand fit fine under the intake so I changed it. Sure enough we start to head back to Houston and it was getting hot going over hills. Found a auto parts store and for $10 changed the thermostat and never another problem. the truck was only about 5 years old. If you had a rag in the system I would not be surprised to see some of it there. If not a failsafe thermostat it could be low flow at that point with a rag in it. BTW how much rag did you find? The whole thing or half? I would guess a whole rag would mean it is all gone. If you found a piece of it you need to be looking for the rest. It does not take much water to cool an engine. From the size of the hoses down to the smallest ports of restriction just a little flow will keep it somewhat cool on flat terrain.
Ace, so the radiator was used? I'd pull the tanks off and inspect to see if any of the interior rows have been repaired/capped.
zero it was 3 months old when I purchased it! I really think it's never been apart and I think the culprit is more rag that is in it! Until I research more that's all I can go on!
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That will really chap you when someone caps the tubes from the inside it happen to me a bus service well known did that to me for 1200 bucks ???
What's the reason for doing this?
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Ace they do that so the radiator shows no signs of repair these slick jokers will use a fin comb a little paint and make one look like new plugging the tubes from inside the tanks .
Mine was leaking on the bottom in several place and he told me it needed a core and I agreed and paid 1200 bucks plus labor and had to replace the radiator in a year because my 8v92 was getting hot something it never done before.
The radiator shop in Texas showed me the problem and how it was rigged to make a few bucks he said had seen a lot done that way on high $$$$$ cores and he could not understand why a person would go to that much trouble just to screw somebody Not to knock the good preachers of this world but one that has the fish on everything,passing out pamphlets and working on buses I run like hell now ::)
I agree 100% with what Clifford is saying. I have been polite trying flush out the other nasty "cover up"..
At the very least one could use a good Borescope, I have a Snap On BK6000.. Great tool for this job..
The black rattle can special with a fin comb gets you a NEW radiator..
Quote from: Zeroclearance on May 05, 2014, 02:25:45 PM... At the very least one could use a good Borescope, I have a Snap On BK6000.. ...
You all are talking about water/anti-freeze flowing through the radiator. Since "something changed" since before the radiator swap, is there any chance you've got any air trapped in that system from when you did the radiator? It's a pretty slim chance, but that is just what it acts like. Air trapped expands when it gets hot and blocks even more of the cooling capacity/heat transfer capacity. Just a guess ...
BH NC USA
Sorry, double post ...
I think we got all of the air out of the system! It will not take any more coolant and I've topped it off after several long and short runs, also the very first trip after radiator change we had to stop on side of road and bleed off an air pocket.
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Quote from: Ace on May 06, 2014, 01:11:28 PMI think we got all of the air out of the system! It will not take any more coolant and I've topped it off after several long and short runs, also the very first trip after radiator change we had to stop on side of road and bleed off an air pocket.
Yeah, I supposed that that would be it but the symptoms kinda made it a possibility. As a further thought, it sounds like *something* is blocking the flow so if it's not a bubble, that does point toward rag, doesn't it?
Bad used radiator. Slipping belts. Not all drive belts are the same. Anyway you could line up and mark on the belts and pulleys to see if the belts are slipping at high rpm? How much slippage is normal? Dunno. Finally sabotage. You already have found a rag where it had no reason being. What else may be inside? Sorry. Just me. HB of CJ (old coot)
HB the belt is showing absolutely no sign of slippage. I would think that with many miles logged there would be some traces of rubber or shiny ness or something! There's none!
I wouldn't call stuffing the rag in the radiator was sabotage. I just think they should have used a different means of protecting trash from entering during shipping.
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I spent ALL day yesterday removing the ECM, T-Stats, and water pump.
I found a very very small, I mean it small enough that it wouldn't fill a thimble, amount of rag in one T-Stat.
Back flushed from every opening and then forward flushed the same. Ordered a new fan belt by just giving Prevost parts my vin and the belt came today. It's a Gates A-94. Same as the one I took off. It doesn't fit! It's too big! What gives?
Found a A-92 at the shop and it fits perfect.
This may have been the biggest part about not being able to run 70+ without it running hotter than normal.
As for the A-94 belts? I'm stumped and just don't understand!
Leaving tomorrow so maybe we'll see once I hit the slab!
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was a pulley changed, with a wrong one ?
the easiest way to check a slipping belt...put a big long wrench on a pulley nut...but you probably already did that.
It appeared to not be slipping on the crank but it may have been slipping on the fan pulley!
But get this,
Old belt fit and you could not turn the fan by hand but replacing the belt with the same exact number belt, you COULD turn the fan by hand and the air tensioner would not put enough tension on the new belt to tighten it up.
Still confused!
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When I questioned Gates about a loose fitting belts the guy told me with their design it would tighten under load and it did how much it would tighten I have no idea
After calling Prevost, they NOW tell me there is TWO different numbers for the H3-40 and depending where you vin number falls determines what belt. Some how my bus had the wrong belt on since I owned it! Supposedly!
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I know they use a Dayco belt I have one in the shop Dayco number is 510045 Prevost number is 50663 it's been here a long time if it's what you need I'll ship it to you
No, thanks anyway I'm good to go now
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Alrighty! That's the way the bus is supposed to run!
Ran back roads up to 72 mph and temps never went above 177. Can't wait to try the interstate but I'm thinking the problem has been cured once and for all!
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Hi Ace, I think I have found your problem. You said you painted the radiator gloss black. That should not be done. The paint will not let the radiator cool right. The paint on radiators is a special paint. Get rid of the paint and your troubles will be over!
Busn
Maybe you misses my last post.
The problem has been corrected!
I don't think the paint had anything to do with contributing to the problem/s. If it was, it would STILL be a problem!
You can't ask it to run any cooler than it presently is at the speeds I've been able to run so far.
I'm very happy that it doesn't require any major repair work and I don't have to look any further for a problem!
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Quote from: Ace on May 17, 2014, 05:43:00 AM
I'm very happy that it doesn't require any major repair work and I don't have to look any further for a problem!
Yep!!! :)
;D
The thickness of the paint is the only thing that will cause less heat rejection and automotive paint with out the asphalt base will peel is what the people at Wayside Radiator one of largest shops in Houston Tx told me. I have many radiators painted with flat black paint from WM in the rattle cans that were never a problem
:)
Uh did I actually say GLOSSY black! My mistake!
What I used was grill paint, which is flat black and after about two years you can't even tell it was painted!
Trust me, the problem has been fixed and the paint had nothing to do with it.
Why is it everyone that has an issue and ask for help, everyone almost always says to post when and how the issue was fixed? When we do, were almost always told we do it wrong or what we did to fix the issue isn't what fixed it?
Geeze, I posted the issue was fixed and you guys are still posting probable reasons or causes!
SMH
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Quote from: Ace on May 18, 2014, 06:39:57 PMTrust me, the problem has been fixed
Hey, Ace, your post earlier said that you'd done three things --
1) Cleaned a piece of rag out of a thermostat
2) Flushed it well
3) Changed the fan belt
How many thermostats are on your engine? Do you have any idea which of the three was the most important to solving the running hot or was it probably a combo of all three? Glad to hear it's fixed (and reasonably cheap).
BH NC USA
Quote from: Ace on May 18, 2014, 06:39:57 PM
Uh did I actually say GLOSSY black! My mistake!
What I used was grill paint, which is flat black and after about two years you can't even tell it was painted!
Trust me, the problem has been fixed and the paint had nothing to do with it.
Why is it everyone that has an issue and ask for help, everyone almost always says to post when and how the issue was fixed? When we do, were almost always told we do it wrong or what we did to fix the issue isn't what fixed it?
Geeze, I posted the issue was fixed and you guys are still posting probable reasons or causes!
SMH
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Glad you found and FIXED the problem.
Now tell me again about why aluminum holding tanks won't work. ;)
:D BK :D
All 3 probably contributed to the fix!
BK... Funny!
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