I have sold my house and am currently looking for another house. I really want a place that will allow a bus garage to be built.
The city I am most likely to buy a house in will allow a garage up to 2,000 square feet. My bus is 43 feet long. What would be the ideal dimensions for a bus garage to stay within 2000 square feet? My original thought was to go 40x50, but I could hardly open the engine hatch on my 43 foot bus. Caveats are I still need to have room for two cars and the bus side by side at the front of the garage. I also want use at least 20x25 for a shop. What size door should I use for the bus? 14x12?
Your local codes and the truss manufactures span width are going to dictate the width of your building,have a architect draw a set of plans if you go into odd ball sizes the waste of materiel is unbelievable and waste is money
good luck
If possible include a pit in the plans.
Ken
Quote from: luvrbus on April 27, 2014, 06:09:03 PM
Your local codes and the truss manufactures span width are going to dictate the width of your building,have a architect draw a set of plans if you go into odd ball sizes the waste of materiel is unbelievable and waste is money
I don't think 40 feet wide will be an issue for trusses. There are pole buildings all over with spans over 40 feet. One size I am considering is 36 by 56, but it puts me over by 16 square feet. Multiples of four tend to be better for sheet goods. I am going to hopefully talk to someone tomorrow who can help me plans and a price to build.
The city won't allow a traditional pole building with the vertical steel siding. There are residential pole buildings that can meet city requirements by using a traditional house type siding instead of vertical steel.
Does it have to be rectangular? What about L shaped?
65ft x 30ft will give you 1950sq/ft. That will give you 11ft front and back, right and left. Good Luck, TomC
The first time you park your 365 square foot coach in your 2000 square foot garage you will think you died and went to heaven. Within a year you will be out of room and walking sideways just to get around everything.
If nothing else make it long enough to be able to open the engine bay doors plus have room to walk behind it with the doors open. You only need about 2 feet in front of the coach. That suggests a minimum depth of 55 feet. That leaves 36 feet for the width. Allow at least 4 feet along each side of the coach so you can pull an axle or holding tank. If you plan on 4 feet of clear space on each side of the coach you have a remaining space of about 19 feet X 55 feet.
The door needs to be 14 feet high and if you can do it, allow 14 feet for the width. Add a pit. Add water, sewer, and an RV plug for 50 amp next to the coach. Put in enough lighting to be able to do surgery. Insulate it as well as possible. Make the floor at least 7" thick so you can support the entire coach on stands. Plumb the pit and the garage with air, welder outlets, and plenty of electric outlets.
Quote from: krank on April 27, 2014, 07:01:39 PM
Does it have to be rectangular? What about L shaped?
I guess I don't know on that. I'm not sure why I would want L shaped unless it would be to have a really long section for the bus along with a small section for parking passenger cars. The city definitely wants a structure that is primarily for parking vehicles. The city will allow a garage up to 2,000 square feet and another building up to 768 square feet. If a house already has an attached garage I would need to need to convert the attached garage to living space before building a new garage.
I have to think about future resale value too. Something totally custom may reduce the number of buyers down the road. A large rectangle would not be an issue for future resale I don't think.
The one house I am currently considering has a 5 acre lot, but I would probably put the garage close to the house since I need to park my car there too.
I too am looking for a suitable house with large enough lot for a 60ft x 40ft garage. Reason? After I'm done with my truck, I want to build a pipe organ along one wall.
14ft x 12ft door, etc all good.
I have found that looking at horse ranch properties will put you possibly outside city limits and problems. Putting up a "barn" on a horse property usually isn't a problem. I have found a couple of 2.5 acre places in the Corona, Ca that are prime. Just not quite ready to move. Good Luck, TomC
Tom-- look down here in Joshua Tree.
Bryan- I would ask if you want the bus to be in position to be worked on all the time. Otherwise, if the door is wide enough, you can keep the coach tucked against one side for storage or move it to a more central position to accommodate whatever work you have planed.
I talked to the city again today and got some more clarification on what can be built as a garage. The bad part is the city building official said the garage can't be taller than the house. The house is one story with a walkout. The garage would be built at the lower basement level. The building official said the height of the garage can't be taller than the front elevation of the house.
The building official is checking to see if there is some way for me to get the height I need to have a 14 foot door. The property being over 5 acres might help.
Ask him if you can build a sun deck up top on the house for all your WILD PARTY'S! That will give you more height for the shop!
If you want my opinion go with a 14' X 14' Door for the bus. (That's what we had in Union City and you know how easy it was to back in and pull out (@ 40 MPH w/extension cord hanging out window plugged in wall socket)
Seriously all jokes aside I really do miss the 14' X 14' doors! We have 14' X 12' now and the extra foot on each side has been greatly missed even though we get by with the 12'. (dad an some of the help get scared when I'm coming in "hot" (aka fast during a snow or rain storm trying to keep as much weather out as possible)
;D BK ;D
Same stuff I ran into in Scottsdale plus the exterior had to match the house then the HOA had their say it wasn't worth it to me,you are lucky to not have to deal with a HOA they are a bunch of Richard Heads IMO
When I built mine the building max height was less then I needed and I asked the building inspector if there is anything I could do his reply was quote dave we never inspect height . So it has been up and finished now for 4 years . the property tax guy came by with his measuring tape and only measured the outside size width , length .
dave
In my area, they have to inspect and approve plans, so they will see the height and dimensions. Did you ask if you can apply for a variance to be able to go a little higher and/or slightly more square footage? Would a small cupola added to the house roof be counted in the front height? I'd want 60 foot length. If you ever get a 45 footer, with engine door open and sitting 3 feet from front of bldg, you would still have approx 6 to seven feet at rear to work. I'd want 8 feet on both sides for clearance with baggage doors open or slide outs of any kind. 13 or 14 foot door, at least 12 foot wide, but 16 wide would be better. A quality looking pole building with handsome or conservative colors would probably be more acceptable, depending on where you live. 3 foot overhang on the front and 2 foot on the sides and 1 foot on rear.
I asked about a variance or conditional use permit and that is when the building official said he would do some more checking on height and get back to me. The neighboring property has a HUGE pole building probably at least 40x50 and really tall. I'm certain it is taller than the house. It was built before the city zoning rules changed to limit height of such buildings. I originally thought due to the odd shape of the property that the pole building was part of this property.
I'll have to ask about the cupola thing, but it wouldn't work all that great with a hip roof.
There are other large garages built in the city since the rules changed. One house I looked at had a 40x40 attached garage, but the garage wasn't quite tall enough. The front elevation of the house is two stories so the garage is the same height as the house. I wanted to buy this one, but it sold a week before I was ready to buy.
Here is my 2000sqft shop thread:
http://www.busconversions.com/bbs/index.php?topic=24831.0 (http://www.busconversions.com/bbs/index.php?topic=24831.0)
I spent $35k on it of which $3k was for permitting and utility taps. My only disappointment is the $1k I spent on the floor sealer is crap and all coming up.
Good luck dealing with the code nazis. That is the worst part about building anything these days.
May not be the sealer David if you sprayed it before it completely cured it will lift from the moisture in the concrete BTDT on a 195,000 sq ft lol a very expensive lesson
There are cities that are less restrictive about outbuildings, but they are far from downtown Minneapolis. The city I have been looking at houses in is 25 to 29 miles from work. I live 13 miles from work today. Other cities that are less restrictive about outbuildings are between 30 and 45 miles from work. It isn't the number of miles so much as the time taken up by driving and the fuel costs. Our traffic gets worse every year. To go the first ten miles can take more than 30 minutes during rush hour. The cost of gas is an issue too. It will go up at some point in my lifetime. Also, I almost certainly won't have the same job forever and a new job could be on the other side of the metro area.
The issue of driving on a snow day is even more of a concern. It can take me an hour to get to/from work on a snow day now. My boss lives 30 miles from work and he has had commutes of 3+ hours on a snow day. One thing I often do on a snow day is work late to avoid hours in traffic, but then I basically get home and have little time before bed and work again the next day. My company highly discourages working from home even though I could do almost everything from home.
I really want a one story house for my next house, but in the city I am looking in now that greatly limits the height of a garage for a bus. There are very few two story houses for sale in the price range I want to stay in. i want one story so I hopefully never have to move again as I age. Two story houses are the reason a lot of folks move as they get into their 60s and 70s and can't easily climb the stairs. I've considered a home elevator for the future, but the cost is way more than I want to spend.
I caution you to think this through carefully.
I personally like 40' X 50'. I just think it looks better. Hard to say though because we don't know what the place looks like now. You can drive the coach in and back it out. If you have to, you could open the door for access to the engine. That will work better for exhaust also.
14' X 14' door is ideal with another double door for your other vehicles. Make the second door high enough to get future trailers and what not in.
You never know what you might own someday.
These buildings are very expensive in our area if they are insulated enough and made of attractive materials to withstand the snow load and the wind.
At 40' wide the height may be excessive for your codes depending on the roof pitch.
The cement work for a building that size may approach $50K!
Far better since you are looking anyway is to find a place with the building already on it. Even if you have to build or remodel the home.
How much longer would you need to commute? I don't know where in the Minneapolis area you live but is public transit a possibility on weather days?
I've been through this. I remodeled the existing home. We've owned it since '96.
I was then going to build the shop. After getting estimates on the cement work I have ruled that out.
I am 67. In 10 years I will be 77. How long would I realistically be able to use the shop?
I don't know how strict the codes are where you are looking. Here it seems a variance is nearly automatic for anything if you pay the fee.
I don't live in the city limits but they think I have to get permits from them. "That's the way it has always been."
I pay almost no attention to them. I don't flaunt it but I let them know I know that I live in the County and my deed has no restrictions
except trailer houses.
Do all your homework!
Good Luck,
Public transit is basically non-existent past about 18 to 20 miles from Downtown Minneapolis. My employer will be moving in a year and we will lose our cheap parking. Parking goes from $45 a month to close to $200 a month. I will probably need to drive to a park and ride and take a bus from there once my employer moves. Buses get stuck in traffic too when it snows. Buses use the shoulder on the freeways when it is nice, but during a snowstorm the shoulder is often plugged with snow and can't be used.
I had gotten a price for building a 40x50 garage in 2007 or 2008 and the price was $35,000 back then. I am hoping to meet with that builder yet today to see where the price would be today. That was just a basic stick frame structure with floor, doors/windows, and siding.
I would like to find a house with an existing building, but they are few and far between. I looked at one house with a 40x50 building, but it was only 12 feet tall inside.
Quote from: belfert on April 29, 2014, 08:01:14 AM
My employer will be moving in a year and we will lose our cheap parking. Parking goes from $45 a month to close to $200 a month.
If it makes you feel any better, I lived in Boston *ten years ago* and my parking was $43/day. Yep, per day. I'll save you the math and tell you that if I took an occasional Saturday or Sunday off (a rarity), parking was about $1200/mo. I enjoyed that city but sure don't miss the costs.
Cheers, John
One important item about building a shop in a cold weather area you keep the roof as low as possible for heating,hot weather were I live you want the roof as high as possible the codes will allow mine are 18 ft
The codes here allow the total height of the garage to be either 25 feet or the same height as the front elevation of the house, whichever is less. In this case the total height of the house is probably 15 feet tall at the most at the peak. The reality is the house would probably need to be a two story to be tall enough. There are no two story houses I can afford and I don't want a two story house anyhow.
With a 15 foot sidewall for a building that is 40 feet wide the building would be almost 22 feet tall at the peak. I might be able to use 12 foot walls and scissors trusses or similar to have enough room at the center of the building. I have been in a 40 foot wide garage that did this with 10 foot sidewalls and was able to have a 12 foot door in the center.
I'm pretty close to just giving up and finding a house closer in where I can park the bus outside just like I do today.
Appears your choices are very limited with the house at 15' high, so seems a flat roof garage or excavate the driveway down a few feet and drive straight into a lower floor so you could have an acceptable building. Either way, a 2000 sg ft bldg. seems cramped to me.
My opinion of course, as I am spoiled with the normal commercial building 40 X 60
with 14X14 doors. Actually it is my man cave/shop/garage/hangout. DW always knows where I am.
For me, by the time I could afford such a hangout, I got too old to properly enjoy it. :(
Dave M
City says I have to have a 4/12 pitch roof. It is unclear if building into a hillside would help or not. The height is probably going to be counted as the front elevation no matter if built into a hill or not.
I am probably going to stop by city hall tomorrow and get the regulations for garages in writing since I am not getting a straight answer over the phone.
I read the city zoning code and it doesn't say anything about garages other than a 2000 square foot size limit. A 5+ acre lot can have an accessory structure up to 1,800 square feet in addition to a garage. The interesting thing is city code says nothing about any height restrictions on an accessory building if the lot is over 5 acres. The lot I am looking at is 5.09 acres. Pole buildings are allowed on 5+ acres too.
I am going to go over to city hall today and get the garage rules in writing. Maybe I'll be lucky and the same rules for 5+ acre lots also apply to a garage.
I had a similar problem with lack of clarity in the written regs, so being a nice guy, I went to talk about my concern about building a 150' ham radio tower on our 5 acre place, well was told if it is not in the regs, it was up to the county administrator to decide, he was not in yet, so I thanked them, went hone and built the 150' + 16' mast out the top. My tower was not Going to be determined by his mood, dog bite, DW treatment of him etc.
Only comment was the inspector said about 10 yrs later, we must get great TV reception. TV & flag poles are exempt, sure do was the response. ;D
Dave M
I am sure there must be written regulations on garages. I just haven't seen them which is why I'll go to city hall later today.
I might just go the accessory building route as I can have 1,800 square feet if the neighbors all agree. (1,200 feet otherwise) An accessory building can also be a pole building with steel siding since I'm over 5 acres. The big killer is the need for a concrete or asphalt driveway. I can sign a driveway waiver, but the waiver states I would not make more than one round trip to/from the building every month.
I might think of providing a set of plans for the 2000 sqft bldg, when approved built it slightly larger, doubt they will take a tape measure to it having been approved. Just my opinion considering. 99% of the inspectors are failures in the real world, why work for the govt as inspectors.
;D
Dave M
I'm perfectly okay with 2,000 square feet. The total building height is a problem if the roof peak can only be like 14 feet tall. My bus is currently stored outside and I have a 600 square foot garage which is half full of stuff. Going from 600 square feet to 2,000 square feet will be huge for me. The extra interior height will help too.
I'm getting nowhere with the city here. Nobody at city hall can show me in writing what the requirements are for a garage, especially the height requirements. I even went to city hall and nobody in the zoning/planning department could find anything in writing. I've now got an email into the city administrator trying to get a answer.
How can the planning/building officials verbally tell me the requirements for a garage yet the requirements don't seem to exist in writing? I want to see the requirements in writing to verify what they are telling me is correct.
That is the city hall way of doing things I doubt you ever get it in writing ::) I figured out years ago you pick the battle you can win local governments do about anything they chose to do right or wrong.I am sure they have some little got you in the charter to impose their BS on you as they see fit to do
I don't understand how they could deny a building permit for a garage that is taller than the house if the requirements are not in writing. I suppose a denial could be appealed to the planning commission and/or city hall, but it is probably a no win situation. I'm not going to play the game of hoping the building official won't notice the building is taller than the submitted plans.
I looked at pretty nice house today. Bank owned and the bank is putting in a new septic and well. The thing I didn't like is the house appears to only be 17 feet tall at the peak and I need 19 feet minimum to build my bus garage. The only hope for this house is if I find out there is no height restriction on garages.
Just file a freedom of information request, not only asking for a copy of the garage height regulations, but for the city council vote which made it law.
Counties,cities and states are not required to give information under the FOIA only if they choose to give the information some cites are doing it on certain items now but not many as they like their own little world screw the public ???
If height restrictions are kept secret the city puts itself in a very bad position. I cannot imagine any government entity withholding information relative to laws or regulations.
The City Manger is the place to go they are the most powerful people and agency in a City Government they have the power to wave any law,code or regulation.
My brother was a city manger in Texas for a long time he could pull some strings to have a business come to his area regardless of any regulations or codes on the books, it may not work for Brian but I would give it a shot,start at the top not the bottom of the ladder
I don't know that anyone at the city is trying to hide anything. City staff was trying to hard to find the answer to my question. One staff person was looking through city code to see if garage height is specified there. There is no city manager, but there is a city administrator. I have an email into the city administrator to try to get an answer.
It seems strange that everybody in the planning/building department knows off the top of their head that garages cannot be taller than the house, but none of them can find it in writing.
You'll probably find that the 'garage no higher than the house' thing isn't a specific rule in itself but rather a commonly-agreed summary of the combined effect of various different rules taken together.
Your comment that "everyone knew the rule but no-one could find it in the book" reminds me exactly of the situation in the sport of sailing - again, the rules there tend to be summarised and combined and turned into standard phrases which everyone uses and understands - and which are fully correct, yet you won't find any of them in the rule book.
Jeremy
if they won't give you a FOIA on it then Like Clifford said go to the City Manager and if he says the same thing, then Ask him to give it to you in writing and sign it. If he won't and the building Department won't, then ask them what is the Height for any structure within the lot % perimeters, (which should be 35 feet). Then ask them to give you a copy of that or put that in writing. Then it is all in the wording such as I am building a Shop, garden shed, tool shed, Vehicle storage shed, etc. Get creative, Attach it to the house with a breeze way, call it future livable area that turned into a place to park the Bus because you didn't have the funds to enclose it. In most states they want you to build livable space because it is taxable and garages generally are not unless used for commercial businesses with proper zoning.
Dave
Since you do not want to end up building something and then having trouble, maybe it would be best to consult a lawyer with expertise in the field. Also, there are often independent businesses that specialize in helping people through the permit process. They can be very knowledgeable and are even often former employees of the city department. A good one can get approval for things you would never get on your own.
The "L"word?
In order to build a structure with a 2000 square foot footprint it has to be the principal garage on the property. You can't call it anything else. There cannot be an attached garage on the house. Other accessory structures can be built, but size varies based on number of acres. Accessory structures are by code limited to the height of the house unless the property is over 5 acres in which case the height limit is something like 35 feet. Over 5 acres also allows for the building of pole structures. A 5+ acre property allows for an accessory structure of 1,800 square feet.
It turns out the house I want to build is 22 feet tall at the peak so this whole thing could be a moot point. I'm waiting to hear from the city administrator tomorrow. I won't get a lawyer involved because I am not building this building now, but I want to be sure I can build it in the future. It could very well be that city code changes before I can afford to build this building and the size of garage allowed goes down.
Sad when you buy property and the local government tells you what you can build and what you cannot,it is really their property you just have a long term lease you never own it lol
I get real pissed this time of the year when I pay property taxes I figured in 30 years I paid more in taxes than I paid for some of the property
I heard from the city administrator today. Her first response was to read Article 9 of the city code which is zoning. I had already read Articles 9 through 11 of city code. I called her and talked to her for a bit. She basically admitted that city code has no written garage specifications. She said she would have to check with the building inspector and get back to me.
I'm hoping all my questions won't lead to the city putting the garage height stuff in code so they can't be taller than the principal structure (the house).
I finally got an email from the city administrator today. There is no requirement that garages cannot be taller than the house. The height limit is 45 feet and the building can be up to 2,000 square feet. The garages does have to be stick built or similar and must have residential type siding. No pole barn type siding.
Now I just have to find a house and lot I like.
I'm about ready to give up on buying a house and just move into my bus. Any of the houses that are a good deal in my price range are selling before I can go take a look.
One house had a huge concrete block building 40x80 with 2.5 acres for just $199,000. The building looks very well built and is probably worth $100,000 alone just by looking at the pictures. I was supposed to go look at it tomorrow, but it sold already. The price was dropped substantially on Monday, but I wasn't aware of the new price until yesterday. I can get financing to buy a house with a building, but I can't get financing to build a new building.