For the first time I successfully revived the start batteries in my bus. Here's the background info and how I was able to do it.
I've replaced my start batteries 3 times in six years. I've tried everything known to mankind to make them last longer..... Battery Tender, Minder, trickle, stored in the basement, stored connected, stored unconnected, and for the last two years connected to the mirror charge line on inverter. Never fail, they fail after two years. The symptoms are simple.... the batteries turn the engine over slower and slower, to the point that the engine will not spin quickly enough to start under 50 degrees.
I've had really bad luck with starter rebuilds. I got a spare starter with my bus when I purchased it and the PO warned me that it "eats" starters. Whenever I thought I needed new batteries I'd have the spare starter "rebuilt" and installed it. Sometimes that would help, other times it didn't seem to make any difference at all. The various rebuild shops where all hacks to some degree: some used modified 24v solenoids (the bus is 12v). Failed. Some used 24v brushes. Failed. Some used USED solenoids. Failed. Some returned RH rotations starters and insisted that's what I gave them! Last fall I had a shop rebuild two starters fours times in one week! I wasn't charged for the second round of fixes, but neither should I have been charged for them fixing their mistakes. Since my bus is a 4106, removing and installing a starter is a very difficult process to say the least. I finally found a marine electrical shop that knew what they were doing and rebuilt the two starter motors that had just be rebuilt. The quality of the work and parts was completely transparent, he show me how the other shop rewired a RH solenoid to use on my LH starter and why it fried, taking down the start batteries to almost zero voltage overnight, not to mention burning the paint off the solenoid. I'm lucky the bus didn't burn.
In my quest to get the bus to start reliably last fall, I replaced the 0000 battery cable with dual 00 cables. I installed the starter the marine electrical shop rebuilt and charged the batteries as best I could. The engine started but the starter spun slowly. I had the batteries load tested, both were in "good" condition, but the cranking power just wasn't as good as new batteries. I bought the best battery charger that I could find, a Pro Logix 20amp smart charger/conditioner (model PL-2520). I put the batteries in the warm basement and ran them through several charge / discharge cycles, then load tested again. The batteries both tested on the high end of "good", but when cranking the engine over, the speed of the motor would get slower over 30 seconds.
In late 2010 I purchased the pair of 8D batteries through a janitorial supply company. They sell hundreds of batteries a year and have a good relationship with a local supplier. I bought the best quality batteries they offered. I don't used the bus very often and I completely understand why they die prematurely. I described the issue I was having with the cranking power and the owner contacted the battery supplier who agreed to replace the batteries for free if they couldn't revive them! I was thrilled to hear this since they are over 3 years old, BUT, the battery supplier said they would ship me a "special" battery charger to "recondition" the batteries before they replaced them.
What they sent looks like a normal charger that you would use to charge a floor scrubber, but it's different. It's a Quick Charge QPA6-127v/6A . This charger only puts out 6amps max, but voltage output is between 6-127 volts. You can attach up to 8 batteries in series at a time. There's no difference for 6v, 12 or 24v batteries, the device doesn't even have a selector switch for them. The way is was described to me is that the high voltage, low amp "charge" softens the lead plates allowing them to somehow remove built up sulfur that reduces the batteries ability to create electrical energy. The batteries got warm during the 36-48 hour process, but they never seemed to boil or gas.
After 48 hours on the conditioner I hit them with a couple cycles of the 20 amp Pro Logix smart charger and put them in the bus. Problem solved! The batteries and starter crank the over the engine faster than I have ever seen before. The janitorial shop was so impressed with the results from the charger they purchased one for themselves.
Here's a bit of info I found online:
Quick Charge QPA6-127v/6A
Designed around the needs of battery specialist, fleet operators, warehouses, and reclaimers. Output is current limited, and is controlled by one linear adjustment. Voltage is adjusted automatically. The reverse polarity feature, and isolated copper transformer make this multi-bank charger SAFE. Made in the USA.
Not recommended for Gel, NiCd, or motorcycle batteries.
The Series Multi charger is designed to charge 6 - 60 cells in series, at a 1 to 6 amp rate. The charge rate is controlled by one infinitely adjustable control knob. Other important features of this charger are:
CURRENT LIMITING: The maximum output of this charger is 6 amps. It cannot be exceed no matter where the rate control is set or how many batteries are on line. This eliminates fuse and breaker blowing, and drifting from initial current set point.
ANTI ARC: This feature provides a slight delay to the turn on circuit, minimizing arcing at the battery terminals. It also eliminates power in the clamps, reducing shock hazard. At least three volts are need to turn the charger on.
Unfortunately this charger costs $470-500. It doesn't make any sense to buy one because a new set of batteries cost as much. I looked around on the 'net to see if anyone rented one. No luck.
Mark - nice to see you finally found someone who could properly rebuild a starter! That had to be a little bit painful. I owe you an email or two but have been a bit busy between work and running around the country. We are planning on heading up your way next spring. If you still have that charger/conditioner laying around it would be the perfect time for me to try it out! Hope all is well at home (and work).
-Sean
Fulltiming somewhere in the USA
1984 Eagle 10S
www.herdofturtles.org (http://www.herdofturtles.org)
I use 2-size 31 Interstate starting batteries that have 950cca each. They are also 5yrs old and still turn over the 8V-71 just fine. Unless you still have the over the road A/C, you might change to size 31 starting batteries. Virtually every truck uses size 31 now-and they are MUCH easier to handle then the giant 8D's. If you're 12v, you could use 3-31's. Good luck, TomC
Quote from: TomC on April 23, 2014, 11:09:19 AMI use 2-size 31 Interstate starting batteries that have 950cca each. They are also 5yrs old and still turn over the 8V-71 just fine. Unless you still have the over the road A/C, you might change to size 31 starting batteries. Virtually every truck uses size 31 now-and they are MUCH easier to handle then the giant 8D's. If you're 12v, you could use 3-31's. Good luck, TomC
I've just passed 3 1/2 years on my pair of Type-31 start batteries. I went away for 8 weeks this winter -- it got to low 'teens' here twice. I put the 6-amp chargers on them and they both went to "Float" in less than 90 seconds. And I can hardly tell that the engine has turned over a couple of times before it is running happily.
(And last winter, the caretaker -- a guy who 'knows all about buses' -- decided that he should move my bus so that he could smooth the gravel on the parking area; but the owner told him not to so he just walked away, leaving the master switch on. I got back from a trip overseas and found the batteries (oh, did I mention that he disconnected my shore cord, too???) dead as hammers. It took about 14 hours to charge the start batteries but they have been hotter than a trip to the outhouse behind the Mexican restaurant ever since. The 8-D house batteries ... um, not so good.)
I just found the sales slip for my 2 group 31s the other day. Bought them in July of 05.....still starting the 8v71 as soon as i touch the switch. ;D
Thanks onelapper for that info, been looking at someway to recondition a solor/wind charger bank of wet cells that I don't use enough to keep healthy.
Not all rebuild shops are created equally, most seem to rebuild with a spray paint can.
In our business and after 30 years finally found a 1st class rebuilder that completely dissembles, cleans, rebuild replacing any needed parts and they all work for years, most of our starters are the Delco MT series 39 thru 50 from 12 vdc, 24 vdc and 32 vdc.
Do not forget cables, poor cables can cause problems that look like bad starter or batteries.
Agree on the Group 31 batteries for the 12 volt systems, for 24 volt, depends on the system, some use 4 8D's, and some use 4 at 8 volt.
Cheap batteries and cheap starter repairs are going to let you sit.
Dave M
Hey Sean! No worries.... I know you're alive and well! Plan on a visit when you're in New England again.
Quote from: TomC on April 23, 2014, 11:09:19 AM
I use 2-size 31 Interstate starting batteries that have 950cca each. They are also 5yrs old and still turn over the 8V-71 just fine. Unless you still have the over the road A/C, you might change to size 31 starting batteries. Virtually every truck uses size 31 now-and they are MUCH easier to handle then the giant 8D's. If you're 12v, you could use 3-31's. Good luck, TomC
My next set of start batteries will be 31's. Getting one of the 8D's into that upper tray isn't exactly easy anymore. To be safe, it's a two person job. Hopefully I'll get a few more years out of these batteries now that the cables are new and the starter is in good shape. The janitorial shop is willing to loan me their new charger to recondition my house batteries. Like I said, it's too bad it's so expensive. You'd have to own a lot of batteries to justify buying one.