I am thinking of converting my first bus..has any one done an all electric utilitiy bus?
After wieghing the options. I opted for propane and electric. Some people seem to have a phobia for LP gas. Like nobody ever died from electric. Both elec and LP can be dangerous, but LP makes for more shocking pictures when something goes wrong. I've been led to belive that most RV fires are caused by 12 volt DC. I have 2 30 lb LP tanks which power the water heater, cooktop and furnace. Unless I am useing the furnace these last a long long time. The water heater is a dual useage, LP or elec. Weight all the options and then do it your way!
I agree with the use of propane for fridge, heat and cooking. I have been in temps in single digits at night, and it is sooo nice to have the propane for heat. I have a forced air furnace which requires 12v. I also have a 3 segment infra-red heater up front, and a catalytic heater in the bedroom which require no electricity at all to run. They all three come in very handy. The ir and cat heaters come in handy to preheat the bus while it is sitting with the block htr plugged in.
Just give it time, the right solution will come to you as to what will work best for you.
John Z
Hello mhbrewer, Welcome to the board!
My 102C3 is all electric, if I were to think of 1 thing that you wouldn't want all electric, it would be your heat..
I started out with 2 basement heat pumps and I quickly found out that that was very uneconomical to run heat through the night so, I added
a 45,000btu Proheat diesel fired boiler and piped a hydronic coil into my return air. Now it works like a dream.
Now I have the option of either using the HP's when plugged into park post and not use up my diesel or, while boondocking
I conserve electric by using the Proheat. My electric H2O heater is all electric and it's not a problem because I usually heat it up before
a trip and that darn thing stays hot almost all weekend. We also found the convection Microwave to be a great asset for baking and
heating just about everything. I also have a full size side by side house type refrigerator that is energy star rated and only draws 4.6 amps
It will make it from N.J. to Florida without bringing the battery bank down. So thats never a problem.
With a large enough battery bank, a quality inverter, and a decent Genset, you can have all the comforts
of home.
Of course, you do what works for your needs,
Nick Badame-
I have propane fridge, stove and heat. I love the propane fridge but the heat sucks up propane fast in cold weather. I just installed a 45K Proheat with instant potable hot water loop and baseboard loops. right now I have just the front baseboards plumbed...(23 feet of baseboard). I still have another 15 feet to install in the bedroom. Last night it was 10F and the bus stayed 62F. Hydronic baseboard is the way to go for sure. Other than that, electric fridge and range works well. Just find a fridge that draws little current since it will be running on an inverter when not plugged in.
Ross
I went the simplest route. I have a chassis mounted 20 gal propane tank mounted directly below the stove/oven with the furnace (35,000btu) next to keep the propane run short. Also have an electric solenoid shut off with a switch inside so the propane is only charged when needed. My refrigerator is a Norcold 6.3 cu ft AC/DC compressor type that is typically used in boats. Just look behind any Camping World at the pile of absorbsion type reefers, to know that they go hay wire often. I also have a 100lb Norcold chest reefer/freezer under my dinette seat. Both have been flawless for the 11 years I've had them. My water is heated by two 10 gal 120v A/C water heaters straight from Home Depot. I have them plumbed one into the next with the final water heater wired through the inverter for hot water going down the road. My travelling air heater is the old radiator powered heat exchanger mounted under my wardrobe with two 14" 12v electric radiator fans to push the air. Not real quiet, but very effective. I was going to use the Aquahot method until I found out both the cost of the system and the up keep. All of the above equipment discussed have performed flawlessly for the over 10 years they have been in use. Good Luck, TomC
both of my buses and my folks bus are all electric.
my 04 and my folks 08 both have webasto forced air diesel fuled heaters as well as electric heaters.
the single show box size webasto I have will keep the entire coach warm enough to run around naked in sub freezing temps......as well as dehumidify the coach.
con to propane.........you run out of it........certain tunnels do not allow you to go through with propane........propane fridges need to be level....somehting that can be hard to do on a air suspension coach
propane heat is not supposed to be used going down the road.
but it all depends on your coach use.
Quote from: tekebird on December 09, 2006, 11:24:52 PM
........propane fridges need to be level....somehting that can be hard to do on a air suspension coach
Not true. The manufacturer may suggest that, but I've been so off-level that it was uncomfortable to walk around the bus and the fridge has never stopped working. It's been one of the most reliable appliances in the bus. The nice thing is that it will run forever on a few miliamps of DC and 30# of propane.
I agree on the diesel heat though. 71F in the bus this morning with only half my baseboard hooked up. I think it was down to about 15F last night. It would have cost me 20# of propane to keep the bus at 70+F for the past 24 hours.
Ross
Quote from: mhbrewer on December 09, 2006, 05:09:35 PM
I am thinking of converting my first bus..has any one done an all electric utilitiy bus?
Welcome!
Our current MC-8 is an all-electic conversion by Custom Coach. If I were planning a coach from the ground up, I would not have LP, but would have redundant systems. First, a diesel fueled hot water boiler (ie: Webasto or AquaHot) for coach heat, domestic hot water and piped through the engine as well. I'd have a PowerTech genset sized accordingly for the load to include a few electric heaters and (yes) domestic hot water heater. Why? If the boiler was offline (my choice or not), or I was plugged into a campgrounds 50A service on
their dime, I could get my how water
and knock the chill off the coach interior without it costing me more $$$ in diesel fuel. My house system is a Carrier heat pump with an LP gas boiler as backup. So we can operate on heat pump 100% (wouldn't want to) and switch to LP if necessary or let it do it on its own, based on temperatures. But IF the boiler was offline, I'd still have "some" heat.
For me ... I'd prefer not having LP and keeping it to
one fuel source. But that's just my $0.02 for my coach.
Jerry H.
Propane refrigerators are typically only sensitive to being out of level in one direction. Its left to right as you look at the refrigerator. The reason is that they have a tube with the refrigerant in it that goes from one side to the other as it alos goes from bottom to top (hope that's clear enough) This is the tube that the propane heats. If the refrig is not level enough, then little bubbles get stuck in the horizontal passages and its very difficult to get them moving again once they have lodged in there. Just how level the refrigerator requires depends on the mfg, and how steep or level the horizontal part of the tube is.
I have a compressor driven refrig, 24 volt and it matters not how out of level I am - although its hard walking around when its very far off.
Quote from: H3Jim on December 10, 2006, 07:07:11 AM
Propane refrigerators area only sensitve to being out of level in one direction. Its left to right as you look at the refrigerator. The reason is that they have a tube with the refrigeratnt in it that goes from one side to the other as it alos goes from bottom to top (hope thats cear enough) This is the tube that the propane heats. If the refrig is not level enough, then little bubbles get stuck in the horizontal passages and its very difficult to get them moving again once they have lodged in there. Just how level teh regrig requires depends on the mfg, and how steep or level the horizontal part of the tube is.
I have a compressore driven refrig, 24 volt and it matters not how out of level I am - although its hard walking around when its very far off.
Jim,
Don't forget that after 4 to 5 years the amonia starts to gel in that tube and the burner area. Then when the refrig
doesn't work anymore, you can always flip it upside down for a couple days to get the gelled amonia moving again.
But, they usually rot out before that happens anymore. I had a good pile at the shop this year.....
Nick-
I have an all electrice bus with a proheat diesel furnace. Far as I am concerned its the bst way to go. We have been using fot six years trouble free.
My bus is all electric with Espar diesel heater. Its great. I have 600 amp hours of usable batteries at 24 volts. a 12k generator, and a 4000 watt sine wave inverter. I plan on adding about 700 watts of solar next year. My refrierator is very efficient, and thats part of the key, since I boondock most of the time.
I'll throw my vote in for having propane onboard. We can run the fridge forever on next to no propane. The BBQ ties into the onboard propane tank. With 70 gal of propane we fill up roughly once a year. I love having a gas stove - there is no comparison between cooking with gas or electric IMHO. We have diesel heat.
I gotta offer this...if you go all electric, and plan to utilize older campgrounds, avoid 220 VAC appliances if possible. The cooktop would be the only problem as that would likely be the only 220 appliance used.
RVs don't have 220, even though they use two 110 legs with the 50 amp outlets. The power in some of the older campgrounds may be cobbled together and not to code. A lot of older campgrounds only have a few 50A outlets and lots of 30 amp outlets. As long as you stay with 110VAC appliances, you'll be able to "manage" your power and make most things work...albeit not all at the same time.
If you plan to use a genset all of the time, it won't matter what you use for appliances.
If you plan on boondocking, LP is very cool. Boondocking can be done without LP, but you'll have to be an engineer (and wealthy) to design, build, and keep up with the complex system. You may be both engineer and rich.
My point is just that you may want to consider where you plan to use your coach, and be certain that you can get power to run your all electric systems. You will not have the benefit of running a genset in most hookup sites in campgrounds...you obviously could supplement with a high-end inverter...for a short period.
LP will cook, keep the fridge cold, and give hot water. And some heat. I have two heat pumps that work great, but also have a supplemental LP funace.
There's a reason that 99% of RVs have LP systems...even upscale Class A motorhomes. There are also plenty ways of doing things....and all electric coach, if properly designed, will work fine. An all electric coach with good solar and big inverters and generators will be expensive to build....and complicated.
FWIW, JR
Hi Guy's,
I avoid the older campgrounds anyway. They tend to be too tight for my rig and you know, I
wouldn't want to mess up my new paint...Ha Ha...
Fact is, campers and motor homes are Not getting any smaller. If theese older campgrounds with old electric
and small sites don't upgrade, they may find themselves without customers soon.
Seems RV's are on the rise again theese days but, bigger than ever too.
Nick-
Quote from: NJT5047 on December 10, 2006, 04:56:48 PM
I gotta offer this...if you go all electric, and plan to utilize older campgrounds, avoid 220 VAC appliances if possible. The cooktop would be the only problem as that would likely be the only 220 appliance used.
RVs don't have 220, even though they use two 110 legs with the 50 amp outlets. The power in some of the older campgrounds may be cobbled together and not to code. A lot of older campgrounds only have a few 50A outlets and lots of 30 amp outlets. As long as you stay with 110VAC appliances, you'll be able to "manage" your power and make most things work...albeit
Okay, I'm confused here. Why is RV power two legs of 110 volts and not 220 volts? The 50 amp receptacles are the same 220 volts used for ranges and dryers. I know true 220 volt circuits don't have a neutral, but anything with a 110 volt load in addition to 220 volt loads must have a neutral these days. No more using ground as neutral.
My bus is wired as if the 50 amp incoming is 220 volts and not two legs of 110 volts, but I don't suppose it really matters as I don't have anything that runs on 220 volts. The generator is also wired at 220 with a neutral.
Brian Elfert
MH,
I opted for almost all electric. I like cooking on a gas cooktop so that is my only propane appliance. I use electric heatpumps in moderate temperatures and the diesel fired Webasto if it's really cold. My refrigerator is a small 120 volt unit that draws only 19 watts average. I use a Trace SW2512 and have 800 AH house battery. Domestic hot water is electrically heated if I'm plugged in or heated by the Webasto or engine heat while driving. Despite what others have said most RV fires are caused by propane refrigerators.
Regards
Jerry 4107 1120
Quote from: belfert on December 10, 2006, 07:13:12 PM
Quote from: NJT5047 on December 10, 2006, 04:56:48 PM
I gotta offer this...if you go all electric, and plan to utilize older campgrounds, avoid 220 VAC appliances if possible. The cooktop would be the only problem as that would likely be the only 220 appliance used.
RVs don't have 220, even though they use two 110 legs with the 50 amp outlets. The power in some of the older campgrounds may be cobbled together and not to code. A lot of older campgrounds only have a few 50A outlets and lots of 30 amp outlets. As long as you stay with 110VAC appliances, you'll be able to "manage" your power and make most things work...albeit
Okay, I'm confused here. Why is RV power two legs of 110 volts and not 220 volts? The 50 amp receptacles are the same 220 volts used for ranges and dryers. I know true 220 volt circuits don't have a neutral, but anything with a 110 volt load in addition to 220 volt loads must have a neutral these days. No more using ground as neutral.
My bus is wired as if the 50 amp incoming is 220 volts and not two legs of 110 volts, but I don't suppose it really matters as I don't have anything that runs on 220 volts. The generator is also wired at 220 with a neutral.
Brian Elfert
Brian,
I hope your not using a range/dryer receptical.... They are 3 prong! You need 4 prong [nutral and ground] for park connections.
Nick-
Quote from: Jerry Liebler on December 10, 2006, 08:07:56 PM
Despite what others have said most RV fires are caused by propane refrigerators.
Regards Jerry 4107 1120
Yep. RV fridge is the primary cause of RV fires. Still very rare. Improperly installed, or gas leaks, are usually the problem. LP leak detectors won't sense fridge problems.
RVs are relatively easy to insure...which speaks to the safety of RV style LP systems.
Brian, occasionally an older RV park will pull the other leg of the 50 amp from the same circuit (jump the recep), a 30 amp plug, or some other "not in correct phase" circuit. There may not be a 220VAC potential between the hot leads. This is not an issue with RVs since they don't use 220V appliances. It is not to code, and most modern campgrounds are not afflicted with these sort of problems.
RVs are wired similar to the 110V legs in a home....sans the 220V circuits. Wiring for only two 110VAC legs also allows the use of 30 amp adaptors to operate both legs in an RV. As long as you manage the power consumption.
JR
Quote from: Nick Badame Refrig. Co. on December 10, 2006, 08:23:07 PM
I hope your not using a range/dryer receptical.... They are 3 prong! You need 4 prong [nutral and ground] for park connections.
I have the correct plug.
New dryer receptacles are four wire as the NEC now requires a neutral if there is 110 volt used within the appliance which dryers do use. The receptacle used for 50 amp RVs is a very common one available at any home improvement center. The NEMA TT-30 used for 30 amp is a lot harder to find. Neither Home Depot or Menards had them at the time I installed my 30 amp receptacle for my travel trailer.
Brian Elfert
Quote from: NJT5047 on December 10, 2006, 08:29:02 PM
Quote from: Jerry Liebler on December 10, 2006, 08:07:56 PM
Despite what others have said most RV fires are caused by propane refrigerators.
Regards Jerry 4107 1120
Yep. RV fridge is the primary cause of RV fires. Still very rare.
Actually, most fridge fires happen in the spring and are caused by critters making nests beside the burner over the winter. If the owner does proper maintanance, those fires don't happen.
Ross
Quote from: Jerry Liebler on December 10, 2006, 08:07:56 PM
MH,
I opted for almost all electric. I like cooking on a gas cooktop so that is my only propane appliance. I use electric heatpumps in moderate temperatures and the diesel fired Webasto if it's really cold. My refrigerator is a small 120 volt unit that draws only 19 watts average. I use a Trace SW2512 and have 800 AH house battery. Domestic hot water is electrically heated if I'm plugged in or heated by the Webasto or engine heat while driving. Despite what others have said most RV fires are caused by propane refrigerators.
Regards
Jerry 4107 1120
19 watts? Are you sure?
I've not seen any household 120v fridge less than about 1.3 amps draw, which, by my calculations comes out to about 156 watts.
Quote from: gumpy on December 11, 2006, 05:22:15 AM
Quote from: Jerry Liebler on December 10, 2006, 08:07:56 PM
MH,
I opted for almost all electric. I like cooking on a gas cooktop so that is my only propane appliance. I use electric heatpumps in moderate temperatures and the diesel fired Webasto if it's really cold. My refrigerator is a small 120 volt unit that draws only 19 watts average. I use a Trace SW2512 and have 800 AH house battery. Domestic hot water is electrically heated if I'm plugged in or heated by the Webasto or engine heat while driving. Despite what others have said most RV fires are caused by propane refrigerators.
Regards
Jerry 4107 1120
19 watts? Are you sure?
I've not seen any household 120v fridge less than about 1.3 amps draw, which, by my calculations comes out to about 156 watts.
Thr light bulb draws 40 watts....huh.
Nick-
Quote from: Nick Badame Refrig. Co. on December 11, 2006, 05:59:50 AM
Thr light bulb draws 40 watts....huh.
Nick-
Yeah, but when you close the door, does the light bulb stay on?
Are you sure? :D
Yes I'm sure my refrigerator draws 19 watts. It is an Avanti 653 and when I got it I ran it fora couple of days connected through a wattmeter average watts 22. Then I added 1 1/2" of 'Rmax" board around it's sides,back,top and bottom. After adding the insulation I ran it another day and measured under 19 watts average. When the compressor is running it is drawing between 110 and 125 watts and the light draws 25 watts.
Regards
Jerry 4107 1120
Lots of good responses here already, but I thought I would weigh in with a couple years of real-world experience in answer to the originally posted question.
We did an "all-electric" coach. I put that in quotes because there really is no such thing -- in all the years I have been researching bus conversions and other RV's, I have only seen perhaps two or three units that were truly electric-only. Most of the units that are called all-electric have, at minimum, some type of hydrocarbon-fired heating system. Current marketing wisdom seems to be that, if the heating system is fired by the same fuel that powers the main road engine, then you get to call the resulting product "all-electric."
In our case, we cheated two ways. First, we do have a diesel-fired heating system. We have electric heaters, too, and we seldom need the diesel boiler if we are plugged in to 30 amps or more of shore power. We mostly boondock, though, so the diesel heat and hot water system sees more use. Secondly, we put an LP cooktop in, along with an electric induction one. We don't have a built-in LP tank, just a pair of tiny bottles (2 gallons each) to run the stove and the outdoor BBQ grill.
We had many reasons for forsaking the traditional LP-powered appliances, including safety (did not want to have LP flowing to anything while driving, sleeping, or away from the coach), convenience (did not want to have to level the coach every time we stopped), efficiency (pound for pound, LP is a much less energetic fuel than diesel, and absorption refrigeration is much less efficient than compressor refrigeration), and LP-restricted travel routes.
After a little more than two years on the road full-time, we are very happy with our choice. We never have to worry about whether or not we have enough LP on board, and our heating costs are almost negligible. With our ultra-safe marine cooktop (a thermocouple cuts off gas flow if the burner goes out or fails to light), we never worry that there is any gas flowing anywhere in the coach when we are not cooking. And we never worry about being level when parked for the day someplace (we do at night -- I hate rolling out of the bed ;-).
If you do go the "all-electric" route, I can make several suggestions:
- If you intend to boondock, get a high-efficiency, manual-defrost, DC-powered fridge.
- Induction cooktops are more efficient than resistive or halogen ones, and also easier to control. Ours is a tabletop unit by Sunpentown, but built-in types are returning to the market. You can do a lot of cooking on 120 with these, whereas the resistive ones require 240 for more than a couple small burners. Downside is you will need to get all steel cookware.
- Put in as big a battery bank as you can afford. Even if you don't boondock much, it will bridge the gaps between power poles, and give you the option to at least spend a night in a rest area or a Wal-Mart if you have to.
- 24-volt systems and inverters are more manageable for all-electric coaches than are 12-volt systems.
- A large, high-quality inverter is a must-have in an all-electric coach.
With regard to LP restrictions on travel routes, this turned out to be a red herring. We went with the small free-standing bottles for our cooking gas on the premise that, if we ever came to a point where we would not be allowed to continue with the LP on board, we could just ditch the bottles and pick them up, or new ones, afterwards. In two years of travel, we have never had this problem. I know there are some tunnels in the east (e.g. Hudson River and Boston Harbor tunnels) where any LP at all is strictly forbidden, and even empty cylinders are prohibited. Hard to imagine, though, wanting to take
Odyssey through any of those tunnels. We've been required to turn off our LP at the tanks while going across the Chesapeake Bay Bridge-Tunnel, several smaller tunnels, and many ferries. However, even a fairly good sized built-in tank would have been allowed on those routes, provided the valve is closed at the tank during the transit.
Hope this helps, and good luck with your project.
-Sean
Quote from: Jerry Liebler on December 11, 2006, 07:08:43 AM
Yes I'm sure my refrigerator draws 19 watts. It is an Avanti 653 and when I got it I ran it fora couple of days connected through a wattmeter average watts 22. Then I added 1 1/2" of 'Rmax" board around it's sides,back,top and bottom. After adding the insulation I ran it another day and measured under 19 watts average. When the compressor is running it is drawing between 110 and 125 watts and the light draws 25 watts.
Regards
Jerry 4107 1120
Jerry, I think you are confusing some with your terminology.
As I understand what you are saying is that over a 24 hour period the overall
average is
22 watts for a
total consumption of
528 watts for the 24 hour period.
You state that the draw is is 22 watts. That is not correct. The
draw is
140-150 watts with the light on.
That is my understanding of what you are saying.
Richard
Richard,
Yes it is drawing 19 watts so over 24 hours it draws 456 watt hours. The actual data was 455 watt hours. over 24 hours running with the door closed so the light was off. When the compressor runs it starts out drawing 110 watts and builds up to 125 watts after a few minutes.
Regards
Jerry 4107 1120
Quote from: Jerry Liebler on December 11, 2006, 08:33:08 PM
Richard,
Yes it is drawing 19 watts so over 24 hours it draws 456 watt hours. The actual data was 455 watt hours. over 24 hours running with the door closed so the light was off. When the compressor runs it starts out drawing 110 watts and builds up to 125 watts after a few minutes.
Regards
Jerry 4107 1120
OK, thanks Jerry. That was what was confusing me. And that is easy to do. LOL
I have always associated draw with what the current amount of amps are at any one time (AMPS), whether the device is running or not and then average (WH) as to what the total consumption is over a period of time. I think we are on the same track. Thanks again.
Richard
Speaking of low voltage use, I have a 6.3 cu ft Norcold compressor AC/DC. It uses 5.5 amps when running, so that is 66 watts of direct 12v power, or around 33 watts average run. I have 2 Lifeline 8D AGM that are rated at 255 amp hours. Figureing running down to 50%, that is 255 amp hours. Since the refer takes an average of 2.75 amp hours, that equates to 92 hours of run time. Course you also have lights, water pump, furnace, TV, misc inverter use. When boon docking, I just run the gen in the morning and at night, both until the batts float out. Good Luck, TomC
Quote from: TomC on December 12, 2006, 07:37:06 AM
Speaking of low voltage use, I have a 6.3 cu ft Norcold compressor AC/DC. It uses 5.5 amps when running, so that is 66 watts of direct 12v power, or around 33 watts average run. I have 2 Lifeline 8D AGM that are rated at 255 amp hours. Figureing running down to 50%, that is 255 amp hours. Since the refer takes an average of 2.75 amp hours, that equates to 92 hours of run time. Course you also have lights, water pump, furnace, TV, misc inverter use. When boon docking, I just run the gen in the morning and at night, both until the batts float out. Good Luck, TomC
Tom, do you think your unit runs 50% of the time then?
Richard
bellfert: I would think that any campground that wires a 4 wire 50 amp plug with both legs on the same phase is leaving themselves open to lawsuits as well as violation of electrical codes.
Assuming that the receptacle is fed from a double 50 amp breaker and you load both legs to maximum them there is a 100 amp load on the neutral instead of zero load. In all likelyhood this will cause your supply cord to catch fire, probably at the pont where it is clamped inside your coach.
If you are using a 240 volt plug and cord it should only be plugged into a 240 volt supply, or else by using an adaptor, you can plug into 120 volt - 30 amp supply. Using the mickeymouse adaptors that convert your 240 volt - 50 amp shore cord to a 120 volt - 30 amp plug and another 120 volt - 20 amp plug will not exceed the current rating on your shore cord even if they are on the same phase.
Richard- course depending on how hot it is outside, or how cool the food is, it seems to be about 50% run time. Course if it was insulated more like the Sun Frost, it would be less. Just going on how much I here it running, not very noisy, but can here it. Good Luck, TomC
OK thanks Tom. Might depend on whether you have Dallas around or not getting into the cool ones rather frequently! LOL
Richard
Kill-A-Watt Electric Usage Monitor. These are all over the internet from $20.00 on up.
Here is a review:
http://www.the-gadgeteer.com/review/kill_a_watt_electric_usage_monitor_review
Sees like it might be a handy device for answering these very questions
Len
Quote from: DrivingMissLazy on December 12, 2006, 02:31:15 PM
OK thanks Tom. Might depend on whether you have Dallas around or not getting into the cool ones rather frequently! LOL
Richard
Richard,
I resemble that fact! ;D
I only get into the cold ones when there's a good reason. Like when the sun comes up. Oh,....... and when it doesn't!
I put a light bulb on our house type fridge and it only seems to run for 15 to 20 minutes 3-5 times a day. If it ran 50% of the time, I would suspect some bad seals on the doors, or something more expensively wrong.
Dallas
Len,
That is exactly what I used to test my refrigerator. Works for me.
Regards
Jerry 4107 1120