Hi All, as I'm down in So Cal, looking at all the beautiful people parading in front of me, I've been think of what our own beautiful people have been talking about, the possible immenent restriction of the running of two stroke diesel engines in CalifornIa. A couple of 3 things crossed my mind, would bio diesel converted 8V71s be banned also? Would CNG 2 strokes be banned also? And more directly, what do you think is the posibilty that exemptions would be given to the newest and most effecient of the 2 strokes, which I think is the 6V92 Turbo? What about an afterburner of sorts,like a catalitic converter, or some such device? Lvmci...
Don't have an answer, but, One more reason to leave the state. Over here in Texas if they banded 2 strokes, they would have to shut the oil and gas industry down for a while cause there are quite a few of the sweet babies still running on equipment out here in the field. Leave it to The Austin Tx. Crowd (that make the laws/rules for us peons) that is swelling with folks from your state to make a run at it in the next few years. Until then, I will keep on cruising in my 8V92TA.
If California outlawed 2 strokes in recreational vehicles, I guess I just wouldn't go there with my bus.
Check out what Don Fairchild is doing at Clean Cam Technology Systems in Bakersfield. You can rebuild your 2 stroke DD with their kit and be CARB compliant. And it would be cheaper than repowering with a 4 stroke. One of these days, I will do that to my 6V92.
JC
I think Don has threw in the towel on the CARB deal and the 2 stroke engine he has gone on to bigger and better things now, his CARB was for tier 2 engines not for transportation engines,sad but the EPA has been trying to bury the 2 strokes for years and are slowly getting it done here in the USA
Before I started my truck conversion, I conferred with our CARB experts (I work in "New Truck Engineering and Sales" at Los Angeles Freightliner) at our dealership. They said that if you own an older vehicle that is used as your single RV, then you're exempt from smog requirements. It is no different for me running a 1984 Caterpillar 3406B then anyone else running a 2 stroke engines of any age. As our experts said, FMCA, AARP, RVIA, etc all have very powerful lobbiests for the retired RV community that wouldn't allow the older RV's (and buses) to be eliminated. So for the foreseeable future, ANY out of date Diesel running in an RV-whether it be factory made or a bus conversion is legal here in California.
If for some reason later on, they become illegal, I'll just switch my engine over to a Cummins ISL 8.9 liter that puts out 450hp and 1250lb/ft torque-more then enough power. Good Luck, TomC
LOL has CARB or the state of CA ever lied before ??? ??? ??? ??? so goes the land of the fruits and nuts, it is sicking to stop at Acme in Stockton and see all the late model engines CARB orders to be destroyed, they want allow him to sell a engine outside the state of CA without their approval
I was told anything weighing over 28,000 no matter what a truck,bus or a RV by 2023 had to have 2010 engine no exceptions period I know the tour operators in CA are shedding the old buses like the plague
Was the 6v92 turbo the last 2 stroke built? Lvmci...
No they still build the 53 series and the 8v92 I don't think they build the 6v92 any longer the military never used the 6v92
Hi guys, was the 8V92 created after or before the 6V92 and did the turbo become an option from the start? Thanks, tom lvmci...
Yes the 2023 order that all trucks and buses coming into California or operating in California must have a 2010 engine (using Urea or DEF [Diesel Exhaust Fluid]) applies to commercial vehicles. This does not apply to RV's as registered. My truck is registered as MH or Motor Home. As it stands now, if you have a single personal use RV, the engine, year, fuel, etc is exempt from smog laws. Good Luck, TomC
Hopefully by 2023 CA will have slid into the ocean!
Where does it say commercial vehicles only reading it over and over all I can find is 28,000 lbs no exceptions time will tell I guess.
It really doesn't matter much to me I live 8 miles north of CA and very seldom go there as the law is always trying to catch a Arizonian with some type firearm now days that seems to be their favorite past time making other states think they are right and the rest of the world is wrong 10-4 on sliding into the ocean lol
Isn't the biggest impact going to be on the secondary market for operators of both coaches and class 8 trucks who buy used vehicles? By 2023 most companies that buy new vehicles will already have vehicles with 2010 compliant engines. In the class 8 world a lot of the 2010 models will have been passed onto the secondary market by 2023. Commercial operators will have had 15 years to plan for this by 2023 so it shouldn't be the end of the world since a lot of vehicles will have been replaced based on normal replacement schedules. The biggest impact would probably be on farms and mom and pop operations that tend to rely on really old vehicles.
If your manufacture date is pre 1975, I think, it doesn't matter what you are driving, you do not smog. That includes our 1973 Eagle Motor Home and 1972 Chevy truck.
Don and Cary
Some are being upgrade to 2007 model engines now CARB is a real nasty deal with only CNG engines allowed in some ports it is a on going deal operator just dump the older stuff buying a 2007 model will give them a little breathing room so they are dumping the pre 2007 stuff
It will bleed over to the RV's CA is requiring equipment and marine craft with the 2 strokes to meet the tier 2 emissions it only a matter of time some of those boats with new engines are over 60 years old lol
I have a friend that works for a drilling contractor in Bakersfield they have been ordered to replace all the 2 strokes on their rigs he was selling some brand new 6L-71 series at the GM rally the company had left over
I just talked (yes it is Sunday) to our head of CARB requirements. I asked him specifically if single use private non commercial RV's will be required to smog, and he said they are exempt from smog laws. The reason-RVIA, AARP, FMCA would put up big stink if the government were to interfere with retirees fun with their RV's. Believe me when I say-at least currently, there isn't any talk about older RV's being subjected to any kind of smog laws in California-even after 2023. Once again-older RV's are exempt from smog laws-all smog laws only apply to commercial vehicles and commercial boats. Good Luck, TomC
I heard that they were going to take the same approach to this as with gun ownership; you will be limited to tanks that hold 10 gallons of fuel.
My old outfit, the Bakersfield Fire Department, USED to have quite a few older reserve fire apparatus that had mostly the 6v92TA with a few 8V71Ts. Feedback I used to get was that the crews actually liked the older stuff as it sounded sosss cool...and a few ancient Engines still had the old ice-age Fuller T-905M straight five speed MANUALS. Also enjoyed. HB of CJ (old coot)
I think the 8v92 came first in a "N" version at 400-425 hp, then the 8V92T, then the 6V92T; all MUI. I do not believe there was a 6V92 "N" model offered in CA. The new 500 Detroits in the newer apparatus are very quick indeed. I still want to put a 353N into my 1978 Chevy pickup truck. Wish me luck.....I am going to need it. :) SW OR.
6V-53 sounds cooler and will have good performance. Not that much longer then the 3-53. Good Luck, TomC
Anything registered as an RV with a 2 stroke diesel motor and farm equipment is exempt from any smog rules & laws in the State of California.
Really don't know why you guys are so down on California, Jealous I guess. The ones that complain are generally the ones that have never visited here or have only been to L.A.
Come up North. Check out the fly fishing, Steel head, Salmon, Bass and stripped Bass fishing in the American River, Take an old paddel River boat down the Sacramento River to the Ocean and ride back in a greyhound.
How about water skiing on Lake Tahoe unless your scared?
There are Campgrounds all along the Sacramento, San Joquin, & Yuba Rivers, Checkout many world famous Ski areas such as Squaw Valley home of the 62 Olyimpics.
How about Yosemite!...
RJ Longs house, LOL
Hyw 1 along the Ocean cliffs and through fun small towns.
Hearst castle in San Simeon.
Muir Woods that has some of the tallest Red Wood trees you can walk through and look up and not see the top.
In the giant Red wood forest up north you can park a car inside the tree up about 2 stories off the ground.
our weather up here is a lot cooler, summer can get in the 100's but spring is very nice in the 65 to 75 range.
That is what California is about, not the sometimes thought, crazy laws some make or the cable news tells about. Doesn't mean we all agree with them. California some don't like because they are a little more progressive here and try to think ahead instead like some states just keep" doin what were doin." and If thats what ya'll like than just keep doing it and enjoy your life.
Dave5Cs
LOL what about the other 5 states of CA Dave I do like the northern part of the state I really like the Mt Shasta area
Would guess the massive amount of idiots & business that moved from the great state to Texas were just too stupid to breathe, but know how the ball bounces. ?
I do not have a dog in the fight but do snicker at the state of the California debt, looks like Michigan and looking for a government bail out. Just brilliant.
Dave M
I read the CARB ruling on older exempt vehicles like the RV that is a limited use of miles how does CARB know how many miles or how often you drive ? then I read even with a exemption to much smoke will get one a Fix-it-Ticket by law enforcement and living on the border I do know that happens
I help George repair his engine before he could proceed on his trip into CA and he had CA plates on a 1964 Eagle bus RV
I know I'm biased since I live here, but-I drove truck for 21 years, 1.3 million miles, have been in all 48 states, BC, Toronto. I can say without a shadow of doubt-if someone told me I could never leave California-I would be the happiest man alive. California is the most diverse state, period. We're the only state with giant Sequoias, the biggest agriculture, second largest milk producer, have deserts, dense forests, the highest mountain west of Colorado-I could go on and on. I frankly don't know how anyone puts up with snowy blizzards in winter, hot humid summers, tornadoes, etc. Good Luck, TomC
You guys need to work for the CC of CA it is a nice state in some areas but places like CO,ID,TX,AZ,NV and other states would be glad to send your natives home that have left the great state of CA lol
I have so many CA people that use my address for licensing and insurance I am as busy as the FMCA mail forwarding service
Clifford thank You for taking care of the ones we kicked out, LOL. You might not want to admit on line that you are letting people use your address???
Like Tom C says we don't think California is for everybody just the ones that are not afraid of change!... ;D
At least we have real trees here not some thorny water sucking tree in the hottest sand and red dirt. Summer time is fun there if you like staying inside with the AC on. does anything actually grow there anymore, Lol
As far as the State being broke it is only some cities that have had poor management for years and as always with one of the largest populations in the US it takes a lot of money to keep it going. Lots of government jobs which never pay back just suck money out.
By the way all you other states out there get ready for your Produce and milk to shoot up here soon being we provide most of it for you!... Because of the drought farms are having to cut back on planting this year.
At Least I put where I am from, unlike some here who can't admit it, HA Ha Ha
Clifford its almost like you want CARB to shut down 2 strokes for all of us, Interesting or you work for the tourist industry in Arizona, LOL ;D :o
As far as people leaving California, that happens in any State. We left for 10 years and went to Colorado. It was nice but they have no Ocean even though they have a Navy Base there, say What? And the snow was fun but got old fast. Came back and will never leave again.
don't know why people talk about Registrations or Insurance being high. We paid a lot higher in Colorado on both counts. Taxes here are only 5% or less for State unless you have a business and you can write off most of that. Registration for our bus is very small and goes down 3 dollars every year. Property taxes are some of the lowest in the nation.
Dave 5Cs
Awesome pointless thread hijack.
EDIT: Below, Dave has completely made the case for living in any of the other states.
Cheers, John
I don't work for the C of C in AZ and having family that own a brick yard and heavy into farming in the state of CA for 75 yeas and living in CA for several years I just don't see the same picture as others neither do they and they are natives of the state
I just read where a teacher on a CA teachers salary cannot afford or even qualify for a loan on a home something is wrong with that picture watch the 2 strokes go away Dave fwiw Don and I both think it will lol we could be wrong but it happen in New York at the harbor
It's not just me I see truckers have filed a suit against CARB to stop some of their bs and enough on this for me
Quote from: luvrbus on March 03, 2014, 08:37:52 AM
It's not just me I see truckers have filed a suit against CARB to stop some of their bs and enough on this for me
Okay, now that I understand. There are people who like Cal and those who do not. But it isn't that. There are two concepts of government that must be understood here:
1. You must believe that you are living in a Democracy or a free society.
2. You must believe in the Constitution of the United States (a concept that a great deal of our elected officials do not understand or support).
If the Constitution of the United States gives its citizens the right to travel unrestricted from state to state (if my memory serves me right it is the7th amendment) what gives Californians' the right to restrict your travel within their state?
Doesn't federal law supersede state law?
One more, if your bus/truck meets all federal and state regulations in the state in which you live, then it should also be legal in all 48 due to reprocricity (sp.) agreements between the states.
Looking at all this from a legal standpoint, it appears to be blandly unconstitutional and might not stand up (be enforceable) after a court challenge.
It doesn't really effect me, we rarely do the California thing anymore, so we are going to we are basically going to not worry about it. Just thinkin' outside the box, no refection on anyone living or dead from California or anyone related to anyone residing in Fresno or the central valley (our lawyer friend said to put that in there).
Finally, just a thought. If you are doing what you say (lending your name and address in order to defraud a state or local govt.) you might be in big trouble going public with it.
RD
Truckers are commercial i am not talking about that and not to take this thread away anymore either. It is what it is. Like my grandfather always said, " If you go through life worrying about what you are going to die from, you will probably die from an Ulcer." So lets wait to see what will happen and in the mean time have fun with our Buses!... ;D
Why I just forward the mail 1000's have the same service though other markets that use a PO Box or a fiscal address AZ does not care or think it is illegal here one can have AZ plates without a AZ drivers license and they don't have to live in the state which is better 900 bucks a year for CA plates or 55 bucks for 3 years in AZ for plates, how CA looks at it makes me no difference I don't live there AZ law applies to me not CA law lol you drive to Needles CA 2/3 of the plates there are AZ plates and no one pays any attention
So you are charging for this service then , LOL Mail Fraud is Federal not State, LOL ;D
The problem is that you guys are talking about two different Californias. One has great diversity and magnificent landscapes, the other has a ridiculously intrusive bureaucracy. So, liking it depends on which one you live in. We live in the good one. Sometimes, there are issues that force us to visit the other one, but we make sure to get home as soon as possible.
Up here as we say," we can drive around the Capital but we don't have to go in." ;D
Years ago, (it is probably worserer now) I nearly purchased a Detroit Diesel 1984 Crown Supercoach bus in Sacramento ONLY because if I did not, it would have been parted out and the aluminium body crushed for scrap. It had been a CHP certified inspected school bus hauling kids only 2 weeks before. Excellent condition.
Nobody living in CA could license that bus. Smog laws. Living in OR I could buy that bus and with a "Get out of Dodge By Sundown trip permit" drive it out of state, never to be registered in CA again. Quite silly. I for one got out of Kommiefornia way back in 1987. Political refugee. Way off topic. Sorry for the rant. HB of CJ (old coot) :(
More. When we visited family in Bakersfield, first we had to strip search our persons, clothing and car before driving down. So many things we own and use daily up here in the Oregon Republic will get you 3 to 5 with Bubba and his boy friends. A very long list. I for one find it curious some people like it in KA. PEM me if 'ya wanna' for that list. :(
Please elaborate on those things that are legal in OR but not in CA.
Quote from: Lin on March 03, 2014, 11:11:45 AM
Please elaborate on those things that are legal in OR but not in CA.
Medflys? 2-stroke Detroits?
No matter what bus you have, you can change the engine to a smog certified engine. Any of the new engines will fit on an inline T drive line. On a V drive, especially with the V730 or V731, there is a reverser gear that will allow you to run a Cummins ISL up to 450hp and 1250lb/ft torque. Granted it probably would cost in the $50-70,000 range to change, but it is still cheaper then buying a new bus. And strange as it sounds, the new engines using DEF (Diesel Exhaust Fluid) are also getting the best fuel mileage ever! So you have your cake and eat it to-cleanest engines ever made, best fuel economy ever made. But until I'm forced to do it, I'll keep with my mechanical 8V-71T and Caterpillar 3406B. Good Luck, TomC
Lin; I do not want to further hijack this excellent thread. My rant was bad enough and I am sorry. PEM me if you want to. Thanks. HB of CJ (old coot)
TomC,
Your correct on the DEF, Cummins can take the ISX to 800 hp, keep within the EPA, problem, transmissions, auto or stick.
They are running the ISX 800 in Austrailia I am told, on the road trains. No idea of gear box etc.
Dave M
Hi All, my original thread was about the future of 2 strokes, I think we can feel safe now as a registered RV, that laws for commercial might not affect us, for awhile, thanks for all the input, California has always lead the way in laws that break the status quo, for the health and welfare of its citizens. whereas Nevada could give a @#$& less creating laws to protect citizens, as a priority before business, read mining & casinos, I feel comfortable puting more money into the old 8V71 tto give me 45 more horsepower to climb Mountain Pass, Baker grade and Cajon Pass, faster that 27 mph towing the jeep. I sometimes work for a production company that has many diesiel and gas trucks, for transporting stage equipment, here in LV, we dont have higher average licensing for vehicles here and this a company started in LV but all the trucks have midwest plates on them! Cant figure that one out, Thanks for all the contributions, lvmci...
Eaton makes an 18spd Ultrashift up to 2,250lb/ft torque-of which I think would cover the 800hp-they can also program the computer to a torque limit.
LVMCI-I turbo'd and air to air intercooled my 8V-71. What was added were the bigger injectors-going from N65 to 7G75, changing the blower to a bypass blower (it is a valve in the end plate that allows a portion of the boosted air intake to go around the blower effectively making the pressure the same on both sides lowering the power consumption of the blower during turbo boost times), adding fuel modulator that keeps the injectors from opening until boost is created (cuts down on black smoke [otherwise you'll look like a locomotive with tremendous black everytime you start out]), enlarged radiator, added air to air intercooler, enlarged air cleaner and air intake, changed the muffler to a turbo muffler. But what a difference in performance! I used to pull Cajon with my car like you at 28mph. Now can do it at 1800rpm in second at 42mph-makes a big difference especially on the rolling hills. Now going between L.A. and Vegas, the only hills I down shift on are Cajon and Baker grade. All others will power over without down shifting. I get the same mileage, but the performance and lack of black smoke at altitude is worth it. Good Luck, TomC
Probably have OK plates on the trailers Tom, OK charges 5 bucks for a life time plate on a trailer where other states come for money every year 10,000 trailers like the big boys Swift,WalMart and others ea have 5 bucks vs 200+ bucks the green OK tags look good and not illegal lol
Back on track here you are not going to be able to add much HP to your 71 with the 600 series Allison more power you are going to be looking at 6v92 and a 740 IMO
California uses permanent trailer registration also-pay once and that's it. Good Luck, TomC
Not for 5 bucks lol and check out the CA fees for the tractor
Supply and demand, Produce, Milk , Cattle, Chicken, Vehicles, world class Wine from Napa, Sonoma, Lodi, Santa Maria Valley and L.A. That's because California actually produces something so trucks are moving all the time here and can afford it. Statistics show that more people move into this State than leave or move out every year so somebody likes it besides Me and Tom and Lin.
What was it that Arizona provides? Little Indian trinkets and People that complain about California!...
And to HB of CJ
Oregon has always hated California and again don't know why but don't really care either. Its just a smaller version of California!... As far as "Bubba and his boy friends" you might try Colorado they have way more of that there than California ever will because of proposition 3 they passed in 2000. Sorry we no longer lead the nation. New york, Denver then SF and L.A. Funny!...
As far as 2 strokes being shut down it may happen because other than Military vehicles and the guys that worked on them, will be the only ones that will have the expertise and won't care when they get out. The old 2 stroke mechanics are dieing off so there will be no support. Its hard to find the oil for them and soon the Chevron dealer in Rocklin told me they are going to stop making it in 2015 or 16 so will have use another , etc.
But life will go on and old buses will move on down the road even here in Cali weather you like it or not!..... ;D
Dave5Cs
How does CA treat buses and trucks coming across the southern boarder?
From an easterner view, it appears Calif indeed is very attractive to the mexicans to move on in and enjoy all the beauty of the welfare system, where everything is free, them dumb taxpayers pay for it. Looks like the border is a one way gate.
Just glad I am over 72 and hope to expire before Virginia changes from English to Spanish.
Wonder if there is much truth to the expression about Calif folks, "Them that are not fruits are nuts"? ;D ;D
wg4t50
Do you you feel better now whatever your Name is? LOL you guys are funny. ;D I guess being from the east you'd know all about it. At least I put where I am from. I like Tom C. love it here and the less people we have here the better. Hey Tom it works every time, LOL ;D ;D :o 8) ::)
Dave5Cs
Whew, relax, Dave. You're very happy in California. The rest of us are happy with you there, too. ;D
Cheers, John
Quote from: Dave5Cs on March 04, 2014, 04:13:24 PM
As far as 2 strokes being shut down it may happen because other than Military vehicles and the guys that worked on them, will be the only ones that will have the expertise and won't care when they get out. The old 2 stroke mechanics are dieing off so there will be no support. Its hard to find the oil for them and soon the Chevron dealer in Rocklin told me they are going to stop making it in 2015 or 16 so will have use another , etc.
But life will go on and old buses will move on down the road even here in Cali weather you like it or not!..... ;D
Dave5Cs
There's still some older 2-stroke buses in Mexico, so presumably there are also mechanics there to work on them. These days the older buses are generally for Second Class services, especially in rural areas - I saw a pristine Dina Olympico near Toluca with a healthy-sounding 6V92, there were plenty of newer 2-stroke Dinas leaving Mexico City on stopping services towards the south, and I saw a 2-stroke Eagle leaving Tijuana's Central Camionera one night! I even saw, or rather heard, a few trucks with what sounded like 8V92s. However, emissions controls are beginning in Mexico, so maybe the venerable 2-strokes there will also run out of time. Too bad.
John
I don't see the end of 2 strokes for us RVers as imminent. I will continue to enjoy mine. And I will keep spending money on it when it needs it. I might even drive it through CA again for the sights, and visiting some of you bus nuts.
JC
In Arizona Dave we do produce a lot of x Californians even Apple has moved here ;D people and businesses are moving in not out
The key to not being written up in California is to have the bus to not produce black smoke. You can do lots with no visible smoke. I had Don Fairchild tune my engine to be most efficient at 1800rpm. That's where I pull long grades and have no visible smoke-whether it be in 1st or 2nd (on a V730). Good Luck, TomC
Maybe the US government will outlaw 2 strokes and offer a 30k kickback to us RVers for upgrading your 2 stroke engine to a newer 2010 model.
Fulltiming somewhere in the USA
1984 Eagle 10S
www.herdofturtles.org (http://www.herdofturtles.org)
Sean, cash for clunkers, bucks for busses? Money for memories? I have some great memories in the italian greyhound, mine must be worth a million! Lvmci...
Cash for clunkers" is that Calif? ;D See what you started Tom V lol ;D
I'm sorry Cali, couldn't pass that one up lol I love my two stroke, and what little of Calif I pass through on the way to Clifford's place ;) :)