I am considering upgrading from 165mm to 200mm headlights on my bus. Would I get a better quality of light by doing this? I know some have said there isn't much that can be done with 165mm headlights because they are too small.
I've already done about as much as I can with my 165mm headlights to make them work better and I'm still not happy with the quality of the light. I put in relays and a direct connection to the batteries so I am getting good voltage. I also put in better headlamps already.
Look into LED headlights. Barely any power or heat. Granted they are expensive, but should last the life time of the bus. Good Luck, TomC
The only down side to the LED lights, no heat and no melt the snow/ice in winter, but then with snow&ice I stay put, no need anymore.
Dave M
Quote from: TomC on March 01, 2014, 10:18:18 AM
Look into LED headlights. Barely any power or heat. Granted they are expensive, but should last the life time of the bus. Good Luck, TomC
At this point I am willing to spend the money on JW Speaker LED headlights if they truly provide better light. Lots of money for just a few trips a year, but we drive as much at night as during the day. $600 is a lot of money, but we drive through open range areas at night and hitting a cow because we didn't see it could seriously hurt or kill someone.
I would still be willing to go to 200mm LED headlights if they provide better light than 165mm LED headlights. The fabrication required to change headlight buckets would be pretty easy. A Dina Viaggio isn't exactly a classic bus where I would ruin the looks with different headlights.
No, they wont. Go here: http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/forumdisplay.php?87-Automotive (http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/forumdisplay.php?87-Automotive) or http://danielsternlighting.com/ (http://danielsternlighting.com/) before you make any lighting decisions.
LED headlights are going to cost you about $700 per lamp.
I just redid my headlights on recommendation of Daniel Stern.
I've been reading the Candlepower forums the last week or so and the recommendations are all over the place, but a lot are doing LED. The JW Speaker LED headlights seem to get better ratings than the Truck-Lite, but many are buying Truck-Lite because they are cheaper.
I already bought and installed Cibie 165mm ECE headlights from Daniel Stern. In my installation they absolutely suck! The bus is practically undriveable at night on low beams. I have a relay setup with 8 gauge wire directly to the batteries. I am using 24 volt bulbs and I have over 27 volts at the lights. I had the headlights optically aimed twice and the aiming was off. I visually aimed them and they are way, way better. I've double and triple checked that I wired the sockets properly plus I installed new ceramic sockets.
The issues I'm having with the 165mm headlights are why I want to put in 200mm headlights if it will truly improve my lighting situation. The 165mm LED headlights are about $700 for a pair, not $700 each.
Quote from: belfert on March 01, 2014, 06:39:52 PM
I've been reading the Candlepower forums the last week or so and the recommendations are all over the place, but a lot are doing LED. The JW Speaker LED headlights seem to get better ratings than the Truck-Lite, but many are buying Truck-Lite because they are cheaper.
Yes, they are all over the place. After a while you know who to pay attention to there and who not to.
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I already bought and installed Cibie 165mm ECE headlights from Daniel Stern. In my installation they absolutely suck! The bus is practically undriveable at night on low beams. I have a relay setup with 8 gauge wire directly to the batteries. I am using 24 volt bulbs and I have over 27 volts at the lights. I had the headlights optically aimed twice and the aiming was off. I visually aimed them and they are way, way better. I've double and triple checked that I wired the sockets properly plus I installed new ceramic sockets.
Thats not right, have you talked to Daniel about this?
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The issues I'm having with the 165mm headlights are why I want to put in 200mm headlights if it will truly improve my lighting situation.
Incase you havent seen it, here is my thread over there: http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?346282-Lights-for-dark-country-roads-a-different-scenario (http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?346282-Lights-for-dark-country-roads-a-different-scenario) I surely am not educated enough in lighting to give you cold, hard facts. I, like most other people that own vehicles "think" they know whats good. This is why I left it to Daniel.
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The 165mm LED headlights are about $700 for a pair, not $700 each.
I wasnt looking at rectangle LED's. http://www.rallylights.com/all/lights/headlamps/90bl-hella-bi-led-90mm-headlamp-module-hi-low-beam.html (http://www.rallylights.com/all/lights/headlamps/90bl-hella-bi-led-90mm-headlamp-module-hi-low-beam.html)
If I was spending that money I would not look at rectangle lamps. What little I remember from science, light is round. I don't have that budget though.
I would surely talk to Daniel, he is billed the #1 lighting guy in the US so he should know his stuff. From the lengthy discussions we have had, I was well pleased. Let me know what you find out.
I don't claim to know anything about this subject but it occurs to me that, although a small handful of car models are indeed now available with LED headlights, the vast majority of 'quality' cars come with HID headlights - wouldn't that be the logical upgrade from your existing incandescent lights, and a cheaper option too?
Also just to mention that I have fitted the headlights from a Lexus LS to my bus - arguably better lights than anything aftermarket, and again much cheaper. Try searching Ebay for OEM lights from premium car brands - my instinct (perhaps wrong) says that they will be the best headlights you can buy. (But much more difficult to fit to a bus for sure).
Jeremy
I recently changed the H7 halogen low beam bulbs on my wife's Mercedes B200 from whatever Mercedes puts in them to whatever generic bulb you get at a Napa store. The high beams are still excellent but the low beams went from quite good to pathetic. So now I am on a research mission to figure out what H7 bulbs will do the best job and why. One thing I have found is that running them outside of their design voltage window, which is quite small, radically reduces their life. They want no higher than 13.8 volts, apparently. So far all the H7 bulbs are 55 watts but there are differences in light colour and output to consider.
Brian
I did a lot of research on light bulbs when I got my Cibie headlights. Since I am using 24 volts I choose to go with Osram Truckstar bulbs which are pretty highly rated. I had to order them from the UK since nobody sells them in the US. I bought two pair of low beam bulbs and two pairs of high beam bulbs so I would have spares if they burned out.
To be clear, I am not saying the Cibie lights are bad in any way. They just aren't working for me for whatever reason.
Quote from: belfert on March 02, 2014, 06:28:56 AM
To be clear, I am not saying the Cibie lights are bad in any way. They just aren't working for me for whatever reason.
My first thought would have been you have the spades wrong. They say that will cause the type problem you are having. You said you checked them though. I do know the Cibie are great lights, but this is over my head. Hope you figure it out.
I would look into the aircraft lights a big selection without Daniels high prices
FWIW when I was around 35 yrs old I noticed that the lights on all of my vehicles weren't as good as they used to be, and every year since they have been getting worse. I have upgraded the lights, installed relays etc and while these improvements usually help for awhile, usually a year or so later I notice the lights aren't as strong as before. I guess they just don't make things like they used to. ;)
Quote from: luvrbus on March 02, 2014, 07:27:26 AM
I would look into the aircraft lights a big selection without Daniels high prices
Aircraft lights for headlights? Pretty sure thats not legal.
You get what you pay for.
I used them before one has to use a little common sense when it comes to the candle power,wattage and the angle though,some of the stuff Daniel sells is not legal in all states fwiw
Quote from: luvrbus on March 02, 2014, 08:03:23 AM
I used them before one has to use a little common sense when it comes to the candle power and the angle though,some of the stuff Daniel sells is not legal in all states fwiw
Understood, you can buy anything in the way of lights from him, off-road or on-road. I wouldnt use anything that didnt have a cut off on the road. Thats your choice though.
Brian -
Unfortunately, 165mm headlights suck. Worst legal/illegal lamp ever built.
200mm aren't much better.
You cannot optically align Cibie E-Code headlights, the US equipment doesn't work with them. For best results, you need to follow the alignment procedure specified in the instructions that came with your lamps. (Basically, parked on a level surface 25' from a wall, a measuring tape, blue painter's tape, a dark-colored towel and 30-45 minutes of time.)
If you don't mind redesigning the front end, then install four of the 7" round Cibie E-codes (like what's on the front of a 4104 but doubled). Wire such that all four are on at the same time, either on low or hi beam.
In addition, pick up some 5" round Cibie pencil-beam driving lights and mount them behind the bumper cutouts that already exist. Put 100w bulbs in them, which are available with a little searching. Be sure to aim them exactly straight ahead, or slightly toward the RH side of the road.
Finally, if you really want some more lighting, then mount two or three Cibie "Super Oscars" on the roof. ;D
Haven't checked in awhile, but I believe www.cibieusa.com (http://www.cibieusa.com) has better pricing than Daniel.
FWIW & HTH. . .
;)
Quote from: opus on March 02, 2014, 06:57:22 AM
My first thought would have been you have the spades wrong. They say that will cause the type problem you are having. You said you checked them though. I do know the Cibie are great lights, but this is over my head. Hope you figure it out.
I did have something wired wrong on the driver's side at first, but I fixed that. I suppose it wouldn't hurt to check the connections again to be sure. One of my big problems is a lack of a place to really test the headlights on a dark road. All of the roads and highways around here are well lit with lights so I can't really tell how the headlights are working. It isn't much fun spending $50 on diesel to drive out far enough to test headlights.
I would prefer not to spend a good chunk of my summer and a lot of money playing around with headlights. Spend the money and time once and be done.
Quote from: opus on March 01, 2014, 07:03:57 PM
Y
I wasnt looking at rectangle LED's. http://www.rallylights.com/all/lights/headlamps/90bl-hella-bi-led-90mm-headlamp-module-hi-low-beam.html (http://www.rallylights.com/all/lights/headlamps/90bl-hella-bi-led-90mm-headlamp-module-hi-low-beam.html)
If I was spending that money I would not look at rectangle lamps. What little I remember from science, light is round. I don't have that budget though.
I would surely talk to Daniel, he is billed the #1 lighting guy in the US so he should know his stuff. From the lengthy discussions we have had, I was well pleased. Let me know what you find out.
I read your thread. You ultimately went with what looks like a 165mm headlight. Why that size and not a round headlight? What headlight did you ultimately choose?
JW Speaker makes 90mm LED modules that cost much less than the Hella. Is the Hella that much better? The Hella BiXenon actually costs less than the Hella BiLED. Folks over at the Candlepower forum say that Daniel Stern recommends the Hella BiXenon as the best headlight out there right now. (My understanding is that the BiXenon is actually an HID.) I have another email into Daniel to see what he says.
Jeremy, the primary reason I really haven't considered HID headlights is because there really aren't any HID headlights that can replace standard sealed beams. There are many HID headlights marketed to replace sealed beams, but pretty much all of them are just a HID bulb inside a reflector housing designed for a halogen bulb. They may provide more light for the driver, but the glare will blind oncoming traffic. They are downright dangerous and possibly illegal. Rallylights.com sells a fully legal HID headlight to replace a 7" headlight that combines a Hella 90mm BiXenon module with a custom housing, but they cost almost $1,500 for a pair. The Hella BiXenon 90mm module is probably the only other true HID headlight that could be easily retrofitted to a bus.
Gillig and New Flyer have been, or still are, using 90mm headlights on their new transit buses. I assume they are standard halogen and not HID or LED. New Flyer is now using a custom LED headlight on their 40 foot and 60 foot buses that is supposed to last the entire 12 year replacement cycle of the bus and has a six year warranty.
Quote from: belfert on March 02, 2014, 11:30:16 AM
I read your thread. You ultimately went with what looks like a 165mm headlight. Why that size and not a round headlight? What headlight did you ultimately choose?
Couldnt do round with my budget. I wanted to but couldnt swing it. Daniel recommended the 165mm commercial unit [over the 200mm] that they use on buses and trucks over on the other side of the pond. He explained it to me but it went over my head. LOL.
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JW Speaker makes 90mm LED modules that cost much less than the Hella. Is the Hella that much better? The Hella BiXenon actually costs less than the Hella BiLED. Folks over at the Candlepower forum say that Daniel Stern recommends the Hella BiXenon as the best headlight out there right now. (My understanding is that the BiXenon is actually an HID.) I have another email into Daniel to see what he says.
From what I understand and hear, LED headlights arent quite there yet. They suspect by year end the will have "arrived".
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Jeremy, the primary reason I really haven't considered HID headlights is because there really aren't any HID headlights that can replace standard sealed beams. There are many HID headlights marketed to replace sealed beams, but pretty much all of them are just a HID bulb inside a reflector housing designed for a halogen bulb. They may provide more light for the driver, but the glare will blind oncoming traffic. They are downright dangerous and possibly illegal.
Again, from what I have read and understand, you are right, they are illegal.
I just did a quick search on Ebay and these rectangular HID light units came straight up at £200 for the pair (but I've no idea if they are any good or even suitable. They are described as 'headlights' so presumably do all the necessary dipping etc):
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/10000K-Bi-Xenon-HID-4X6-H4651-H4652-H4656-Red-Green-Blue-White-Halo-Headlights-/230952058302?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item35c5d0bdbe (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/10000K-Bi-Xenon-HID-4X6-H4651-H4652-H4656-Red-Green-Blue-White-Halo-Headlights-/230952058302?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item35c5d0bdbe)
There are various other similar sets listed as well - all supplied with the headlight assembly itself as well as the bulbs
Or, as I mentioned, how about using OEM units? Jaguar & BMW spring to mind as manufacturers who used round headlights which could be fitted to the flat front of a bus fairly easily
Jeremy
(PS - I'm not trying to be argumentative with any of this, just curious why this option isn't one which seems to be considered - unless I'm missing something it seems to tick all the boxes)
Quote from: RJ on March 02, 2014, 09:26:39 AM
You cannot optically align Cibie E-Code headlights, the US equipment doesn't work with them. For best results, you need to follow the alignment procedure specified in the instructions that came with your lamps. (Basically, parked on a level surface 25' from a wall, a measuring tape, blue painter's tape, a dark-colored towel and 30-45 minutes of time.)
I'm getting conflicting answers on optical aiming of Cibie ECE headlights. Some say it works just fine, yet others like you say it doesn't work. Daniel Stearn's website says optical aiming is the best method with visual aiming second best if optical aiming is not possible. Optical aiming failed for me (twice), but I thought maybe it was just that shop.
I visually aimed my headlights by parking on a reasonably flat parking lot and then using two 4x8 sheets of cardboard to aim against. It is very hard to find a building to aim against that has a level parking lot since parking lots are usually angled away from buildings. The best choice would be a garage or shop that is long enough as the floors are usually level.
QuoteIf you don't mind redesigning the front end, then install four of the 7" round Cibie E-codes (like what's on the front of a 4104 but doubled). Wire such that all four are on at the same time, either on low or hi beam.
At this point, I am planning on some sort of redesign on the front end to get better headlights, so going to a 7" round isn't out of the question although I'm not certain I have enough room. Would quad 7" really supply more and better light? I assume both headlights on each side need to be aimed at the same point.
I'm not interested in driving lights or anything that produces light that would bother oncoming drivers. I need good low beam performance as I drive mostly on interstates where there is often oncoming traffic and I can't use high beams. I use high beams whenever possible as the difference is really night and day on my bus.
I've yet to aim mine correctly yet. We are up to our ears in snow so it can wait a while. I have found a building where I can park the bus and have 25' of levelness to the wall. I only have to drive 15 miles for that. :)
I have never been good at this aiming thing so I am going by the book on Daniels site.
I need to save up a few more $$$ and I will probably add on Hella 90mm halogen, for secondary high beams. Between them and the KC driving lights that were on it when I bought it, I should have enough light.
The only LED I am doing is going to be on the back, brake lights, etc.
For others reading this: (https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-NBSM5XdwdbA/Uv_KQ1fKF-I/AAAAAAAAWFQ/80jU7gns3zU/s800/IMG_20140215_130341_503.jpg)
Quote from: Jeremy on March 02, 2014, 12:53:19 PM
I just did a quick search on Ebay and these rectangular HID light units came straight up at £200 for the pair (but I've no idea if they are any good or even suitable. They are described as 'headlights' so presumably do all the necessary dipping etc):
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/10000K-Bi-Xenon-HID-4X6-H4651-H4652-H4656-Red-Green-Blue-White-Halo-Headlights-/230952058302?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item35c5d0bdbe (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/10000K-Bi-Xenon-HID-4X6-H4651-H4652-H4656-Red-Green-Blue-White-Halo-Headlights-/230952058302?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item35c5d0bdbe)
I've been reading Candlepower forums a lot and they say pretty much every HID conversion kit like the one on your link is dangerous and possibly illegal.
I'm not against using HID, but I would only install something that is legal and works properly. About the only HID headlight I would use today is the Hella 90mm BiXenon module. Headlights in the USA are very different from what is available in Europe. The USA is pretty much one of the only countries that doesn't use the arguably superior ECE standard for headlights. Most new cars here still use halogen headlights with a few luxury cars using HID or LED. I think I'm better off installing a 90mm headlight than trying to integrate a headlight from another vehicle.
Here's another thing I read on the internet, which makes it gospel of course; DOT lights have 20% of the beam headed up in the air so that it will light unlit road signs. I hear tell that will change in April or August.
Mind you, I read this before breakfast and that was a long time ago.
Simply, for automotive HID you should use projector-type (not conventional reflectors) and automatic self-leveling, the only way to guarantee all the light goes where it's needed and oncoming drivers aren't dazzled. 90mm Hella projectors work well with HID, but you'll still also need conventional highbeams for flashing the headlights during daytime. Please don't put aftermarket HID capsules in reflectors not designed for them - they do nothing except piss off other drivers, and it's illegal.
LED headlights are coming, but they're not proven technology yet for vehicles. Wait a few years for the bugs to be worked out and the prices to drop.
Back to the original question - all things being equal, larger reflectors control light output better than smaller, and round is still better than oblong or other shapes. For example, my spotlight with a 9" reflector and a 35W 4300K HID throws a tight beam almost 1 mile in clear weather, much further than my car's 90mm projectors using the same HID capsule (and my car's lights are very good).
I've just read a long and apparently informed thread on another forum about the aftermarket HID thing (the complete units as per my earlier link, not just the bulbs). Apparently, in the UK at least, they are fully legal as long as they are E-marked BUT they may only be fitted to cars with both headlamp leveling or air suspension, and headlight washers.
But just to confuse things there are standard production cars in the UK (Mitsubishi Lancer Evos were mentioned) which are imported via some low-volume scheme that avoids normal type-approval, and which have HID lights but not the necessary washers and leveling. And also there are examples of people fitting aftermarket HID units after their OEM HIDs had failed (on cars which thus have washers and leveling) who have nonetheless been stopped by the Police and fined (although to have been stopped in the first place presumably means that their headlights must have been noticeably out-of-adjustment, so I guess it was the adjustment that was the offence rather than the spec of the car as such)
Anyway, clearly the legality is a messy area at best (perhaps even more so in the US) and I understand why people would just want to stay clear
Jeremy