As some of you know, I have a GM 4104 that has been lengthened to 37 foot and has a 6v92 with a turbo and a 5 speed auto trans. I am wanting to travel and live fulltime in it this spring. I want to take either my car(a small BMW Z3) or a Mazda b-3000 pickup, and my Harley with me. I am thinking either a 20 or 24 foot enclosed trailer. This will make my total length either 57 or 61 feet. Good thing I have a train whistle ;D My question is has anyone ever done something like this, and if so what were the pros and cons? I am planing on having the bus frame checked out for this ( the bus has been lengthened 2 feet so the frame for the engine has been changed), so hopefully it can handle the tongue weight? Im wondering about the difficulty of driving the bus with the trailer.
Scott,
Two items, my brother has a 45' coach, tows either a Ford F250 or a Fancy Aluminum 26' trailer.
Point, is, the state police do not seem to have any knowledge, nor care nor pay attention to such.
I asked once about a 24' Boat on trailer behind my MC7, after many folks who should know the law, the bright one was an old woman in Richmond Va, saying I could tow a 53' trailer, but if it was a boat, I could not be longer than 55', leaving about a 10' boat.
SO I say , go figure, no one seems to know or care.
Dave M
First would be wether your bus has the power and the proper hitch to be able to tow safely. As for length all states have a legal max length. Most are 75 ft max some are 85 ft but are limited only to major interstates. FMCA magazine has and issue every year showing limits in all the states and what type of license is required etc. Also checking with your state dot should tell you what is legal to. The police don't usually bother you unless it is something that just doesn't look safe or right, then expect to get stopped.
The length applies to state the vehicle is registered in we have friends that tow a 32 ft trailer weighing 33,000 lbs behind a 45ft Newell he is at every Nascar race selling his goods and never had any type problem with DOT
I think you might not find as many places to stay....and you will be more limited to the places that you will be able to re-fuel.
and there IS going to be that one time that you are going to be boxed in and can't easily back out of it...
PS I pull a 14 ft. trailer. It definitely slows me down pulling west into Albuquerque and elsewhere....or Chino Valley up to Williams...or Jerome into Sedona...or Lee Vining in to Yosemite ...or and or....
Be VARY careful with tongue weight with your 04, most hitch assemblies are suspended from the same verticle members that carry the engine. The engine and accessories are also carried by the rear roof area, so, often bend the roof line downward behind the last window.
Your rear body has already been extended and a heavier engine installed making the problem even worse.>>>Dan :(
I'd also be concerned about the transmission limits.
As long as you have the proper cooling for your 6V-92TA and HT754CR, engine and transmission wise you're good to 80,000lbs. The big problem is not weather the bus will with stand pulling the load, it's stopping that really puts the strain on the frame. Make sure you either have well adjusted and working electric or air powered brakes on the trailer, or well adjusted surge brakes with disc brakes-surge brakes can drag all the way down a hill and burn up drum brakes rather quickly. Wheras disc brakes will take the heat. Good luck, TomC
Once you determine your bus is up to the task, I would skip the 20 and go straight to the 24. The M3 alone will be quite snug in a 20 footer, to say nothing of the bike. Lots more resale value with a 24 footer as well.
Cliford
What size trailer is our good friend Doyle pulling behind his Eagle.
He has the whole world inside it along with his car.
uncle ned
Scott -
Put the bike in the back of the pickup and flat-tow the Mazda behind the bus - least expensive solution and lowest stress on the coach chassis.
As Dan pointed out, it's not the trailer that's the problem, it's the DYNAMIC tongue loads induced into the hitch that's the GMC chassis killer.
However, there is an answer to that challenge:
www.trailertoad.com (http://www.trailertoad.com)
Selling either the Z3 or the Mazda will help pay for the TT and the enclosed trailer.
FWIW & HTH. . .
;)
I saved this pic to my computer years ago out of respect for whoever this bus and trailer belongs to (the image filename is 'Cecil McClure Rig', whoever Cecil McClure is)
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.payhost.net%2FCecil_McClure_Rig_%28Small%29.jpg&hash=b41ced9a35553bee653eff1f260dfe31b0c7e1d1)
Jeremy
Quote from: Jeremy on February 25, 2014, 01:17:56 AM
I saved this pic to my computer years ago out of respect for whoever this bus and trailer belongs to (the image filename is 'Cecil McClure Rig', whoever Cecil McClure is)
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.payhost.net%2FCecil_McClure_Rig_%28Small%29.jpg&hash=b41ced9a35553bee653eff1f260dfe31b0c7e1d1)
Jeremy
I love this -- as I would since my philosophy in life is "Anything worth doing is worth OVER-doing!"
That guy is from Bonneville MS as I recall some serious hp in that Eagle
good luck
That's a guy that suffers from separation anxiety LOL I'll bet he has fun when he gets where he's going.
I have thought about putting the bike in the back of the truck, but would be very hard for me to load the bike into it by myself, also neither my truck or bmw can be flat towed :( I have seen a picture of a car dolly with a ramp built on the front of it for the bike to ride on, Im wondering if this would still be to much tongue weight?
Quote from: harleyman_1000 on February 25, 2014, 06:49:52 PM
I have seen a picture of a car dolly with a ramp built on the front of it for the bike to ride on, I'm wondering if this would still be to much tongue weight?
Yup. . .
I was thinking the 24 foot trailer was probably too much tongue weight? Not sure how the engine cradle and bumper are attached to the bulkhead on the GMs. But on my MC5 it's all attached to the cradle which is welded to two vertical frame members. How does a guy know if it's too much weight?
Fred
Whenever these threads evolve into a discussion about tongue weights, someone eventually mentions the option of a drawbar trailer. Here's one with bizarrely-small wheels (built by a company about a mile from my house as it happens):
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.vipex.co.uk%2Fwp-content%2Fgallery%2Fpirelli-2%2Fimgp2980.jpg&hash=9626048c1378f399d27d3e3330d0c06e8fa32736)
...And then after that someone else will mention devices which effectively turn regular trailers into drawbar trailers:
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dragracingonline.com%2Fitsnew%2Fimages%2F2012%2FTrailer%2FTrailer-Toad.jpg&hash=d1e2342e8ce1bf61c33e066fbcbe8fe08e1ac234)
...And now we're ready for some posts about the expense and difficulties of reversing such trailers...
Jeremy
the picture Jeremy posted is a fifth wheel type and is a little harder to back. I have one with a steerable front axle. It reverses caster when I want to back up and is very easy to back up. It has a tongue weight of about 15 pounds.
Wayne
Quote from: rusty on February 26, 2014, 05:32:01 AM
the picture Jeremy posted is a fifth wheel type and is a little harder to back. I have one with a steerable front axle. It reverses caster when I want to back up and is very easy to back up. It has a tongue weight of about 15 pounds.
Wayne
Only semantics but I wouldn't describe drawbar trailers as 'fifth wheel types' myself as they are designed to use regular hitches - there's no need for a fifth wheel coupling. (And fifth wheel trailers have lots of nose weight, which drawbar trailers don't)
Jeremy
Quote from: harleyman_1000 on February 25, 2014, 06:49:52 PM
I have thought about putting the bike in the back of the truck, but would be very hard for me to load the bike into it by myself, also neither my truck or bmw can be flat towed :( I have seen a picture of a car dolly with a ramp built on the front of it for the bike to ride on, Im wondering if this would still be to much tongue weight?
A trailer has to have some certain amount of tongue weight to tow safely and properly, but with the right balance, the loads from a trailer like this (with only a bike on it) should be minimal. If you're saying that there is a bike ramp at the front (on the tongue) and a car on the usual wheel platforms of the car dolly, it would probably be *very* front heavy. It would put a lot of load on the vehicle structure and very likely tow badly as well.
Jeremy, Semantics is the word of the day. You are correct about the hitch that connects to the bus. I was talking about the part that connects to the trailer. That firelli trailer has some sort of fifth wheel plate the trailer sets on to let the trailer wheels to rotate when turning. With that set up you have one more hinge part to move when backing.
Wayne
Here in the US that would be called a 5th wheel or a jeep setup I saw a new FeatherLite stacker behind a Prevost, the front axle was not steerable but the rear axle was, it's the wave of the future I was told @ 100 grand + lol the guy told me it was the easiest to back trailer he has ever owned fwiw
Ok, fair enough on the terminology. Oddly enough I remember that when I bought a to dolly years ago I looked at the pivot plate on it and thought "Hmm, that's just like a 5th wheel".
For the sake of doing it I've just Googled the term '5th wheel trailer' and near the top of the results was this mind-boggler:
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rvt.com%2Fblog%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F5th-wheel-weird.jpg&hash=186af5db3bb87ffc62f7911b582d57e35ccad258)
Jeremy
Quote from: Jeremy on February 26, 2014, 10:49:52 AMFor the sake of doing it I've just Googled the term '5th wheel trailer' and near the top of the results was this mind-boggler:
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rvt.com%2Fblog%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F5th-wheel-weird.jpg&hash=186af5db3bb87ffc62f7911b582d57e35ccad258)
Jeremy
He's just doing it "his way"!
We tow a 30 foot trailer behind our 1955 PD4501 Scenicruiser. Total length bumper to trailer door is 77 feet. Legal length in Ohio is 65 feet, but I use a 5th wheel hitch mounted in a regular hitch box on the bus and that qualifies as a stinger steered transporter, which allows me to go to 75 feet +/- 5 feet overhang at each end.
What I have found is the laws are basically for commercial vehicles, and if you are not going to be conducting any interstate commerce you will probaly be left alone. With a lettered race trailer, we get stopped fairly often for checks even though we are non commercial. I have a letter from the Ohio DMV stating my total length compled with Ohio law, and I keep copies of the commercial regs with me as it is rare that an officer stopping me knows about the differences betwen commercail and non commercial regs.
As far as towing behind a GM, we did a lot of strengthening of the cradle, and adding support braces across the engine bay, but I am still concerned about the impact on the rear of the bus, as my tongue weight can exceed 3,000 lbs under normal normal drive loads. I am in the process of building a device like the "Trailer Toad" to take the hitch weight off the back of the bus. Let me know if you would like more detials.
Dave
PD4501-304
Pulled a 20' enclosed with our Camaro and my Suzuki motorcycle, barbecue, 16' ladder, and 2 electric scooters squeezed inside. ;D
Took the whole load on a 7500 mile road trip on only secondary roads. (no interstates) No issue's at all. Found most campgrounds had large pull through sites.
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi991.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faf36%2Fzion-dyi%2Fbus%2Fbl011.jpg&hash=03bab21594fb835ba6d8e1962c14d32e20c26759) (http://s991.photobucket.com/user/zion-dyi/media/bus/bl011.jpg.html)
Lol I don't know how the state of Idaho measures their total length but you see the Albertson's and other rigs towing 3 -53ft trailers behind 1 truck man those things are long and has to be 1 hella of a truck driver is all I can say
I've always wanted to have a go at pulling multiple trailers. The only people you see doing it in the UK are circus operators and I think they qualify for a special exemption (showman's license) which even professional hauliers can't get.
A friend of mine who lives in South Africa tows his boat behind his caravan behind his car regularly, and I'm jealous.
Jeremy
Idaho measures vehicle length like this: https://itd.idaho.gov/dmv/poe/LegalWidthHeightLength.htm Maximum length of any combination is 75 feet, mostly, except for saddlemount vehicles, and I have no idea what they are.
If some one was pulling three 53' trailers, he was illegal by a long shot. Which just goes to prove that just because you do something and don't get arrested doesn't mean you didn't break the law. Bonnie and Clyde did a bunch of stuff and never got arrested, but they sure did break the law...
Brian
Brian, pulling triple 53 foot trailers isnt something ya see often,Ive seen them in the upper mid west and Colorado,and even as far south as south Texas.Ive never pulled a triple but have the endorsment on my CDL to pull them.Have pulled double pups(wiggle wagons) from Georgia to California in a team of 2 for several years with estes and gi trucking (12 to 14 thousand miles every 8 days) burned out now :(...George.
(12 to 14 thousand miles every 8 days)
How is this possible? 1500 to 1750 miles per day?
How many drivers?
Just curious.
GaryD
Gary,working the logbook and using a calculator and notebook,logging 2 miles below the speed limit,letting the logbook catch up etc,knowing when scales,to include banning ca is closed etc,etc,i cn go on ,and on. thats why i said next door that there is a different between steering wheel holders and truck drivers. George
Ps 2 drivers with good calculator skills.
Quote from: georgemci102a2 on February 27, 2014, 05:45:05 PM
Have pulled double pups(wiggle wagons) from Georgia to California in a team of 2 for several years with estes and gi trucking (12 to 14 thousand miles every 8 days) burned out now :(...George.
12,000 miles in 8 days = 1500 miles /day = 62.5 MPH average every 24 hours for 8 days.
14,000 miles in 8 days = 1750 miles /day = 72.9 MPH average every 24 hours for 8 days.
These figures do not include any down time for stop lights, scales, fuel, meals, changing drivers, loading, unloading, drop & hook trailer swaps, flat tires, or any thing at all other than keeping the truck at 62.5/72.9 MPH every hour of every day for at least 8 days.
I drove for 30+ years. My trucks mostly. Hauled mostly refrigerated stuff.... produce, seafood, meat, fresh & frozen, Mexico to P.E.I and East Coast to West Coast. Had a bunch of pretty nice trucks after I made a little money. Loved power. Had a twin turbo V12, KTA 600, and some others. The one I liked the most was a Marmon. It has a 1693 Cat with a 5x4. Loved that truck. Too durn heavy to make any money with though. Ran double for a while with my Dad and then a couple of my other relatives. Never could sleep behind someone not related. Lots of crazy folks out there that thought they could drive without tearing up something.
Point is, I always figured to average about 50 MPH. I have done better for a short time, 2 days, maybe 3; but something always brought my AVERAGE back down to 50.
You, Sir, are one heck of a driver, especially driving an Estes truck. I never saw one of those that could stay within radio range of me....... when we finally got to using radios.
My hat is off to you.
TOM
Tom,in no way a heck of a driver(team),its all in the way ya keep the books and log them,and turn them in to the log book office.Did not drive for Estes etc only pulled many of there trailers along with others.I also like the cb radios with the long range,spent $$$. Only had one nice large car,and then went to International double bunk truck and company leased them for 10 months each from new to trade in because of the time limit allowed between east and west coast for the estes,gi trucking, hauling home depo returnes to California. finished now, house paid for and living the bus nut life now :)....George
I gotta apologize, the link I posted earlier seems wrong or outdated. This link says triple trailers are allowed in Idaho, and many western states. I confess I haven't driven out west so I've never seen one. Double 53' trailers got approved in Canada a while ago, but only on the main highways and they have a lower speed limit. Here is the new link I found: http://www1.eere.energy.gov/vehiclesandfuels/facts/2006_fcvt_fotw411.html (http://www1.eere.energy.gov/vehiclesandfuels/facts/2006_fcvt_fotw411.html)
Brian
Quote from: bevans6 on February 27, 2014, 04:15:29 PM
except for saddlemount vehicles, and I have no idea what they are.
Brian
Brian,
Saddlemount, also called decking, are those rigs you see with the lead tractor pulling 3 or 4 trucks behind it with their noses in the air and their rear axles on the ground. The saddle clamps to the front axle and mounts on the 5th wheel of the truck in front. You have to have a double/triples endorsement to drive them.
Bob
12,000 miles in 8 days = 1500 miles /day = 62.5 MPH average every 24 hours for 8 days.
14,000 miles in 8 days = 1750 miles /day = 72.9 MPH average every 24 hours for 8 days.
I don't see how this is remotely possible, cooking the books or not. 50 mph average is pretty close to real world driving.
Triples have been allowed in Idaho for long time,during the potatoes and sugar beet harvest I have always saw triples since the late 80's you should see the weight those guys carry I once saw a weight ticket at the beet plant in Napa Idaho the guy was @ 214,000 lbs with 3 trailers and the scale guy told me he was a little on the lite side lol
good luck
Quote from: usbusin on February 28, 2014, 07:25:11 AM
12,000 miles in 8 days = 1500 miles /day = 62.5 MPH average every 24 hours for 8 days.
14,000 miles in 8 days = 1750 miles /day = 72.9 MPH average every 24 hours for 8 days.
I don't see how this is remotely possible, cooking the books or not. 50 mph average is pretty close to real world driving.
Me neither but, then again, I never kept a log book unless I was on a temporary lease to a company. Just paid the fine if I got caught.
TOM
I thought doubles and triples are usually smaller trailers like the 28 footers? I don't recall ever seeing double or triple 53 footers, but I don't spend much time out west either.
I have towed a 24 ft trailer with a 4106 and mc8 for 8 full-time years. I have been to Alaska 4 times towing the trailer. Remember that the trailer doesn't have air suspension or air ride seats. The baby blazer walked a little and some hanging items got their freedom. No real problems. 3 other bus friends also run 24 ft trailers and have lots of crap inside.
Big advantage is you can back up a trailer while a towed rig, not so much. Also vehicles stay safe and clean and away from prying eyes. A trailer can also be used as a spare bedroom or puzzle room. Also a good place for your full size chest freezer, welders drill press etc. A trailer is another good location for large solar banks.
In smaller rv parks I have had to park the trailer in a storage place but no additional charge. I t was easy to do, just unload blazer and use it to jockey trailer.
A good strong hitch is a concern but none of our group has had any problems.
Quote from: yeeolde48 on February 26, 2014, 09:42:42 PM
We tow a 30 foot trailer behind our 1955 PD4501 Scenicruiser. Total length bumper to trailer door is 77 feet. Legal length in Ohio is 65 feet, but I use a 5th wheel hitch mounted in a regular hitch box on the bus and that qualifies as a stinger steered transporter, which allows me to go to 75 feet +/- 5 feet overhang at each end.
What I have found is the laws are basically for commercial vehicles, and if you are not going to be conducting any interstate commerce you will probaly be left alone. With a lettered race trailer, we get stopped fairly often for checks even though we are non commercial. I have a letter from the Ohio DMV stating my total length compled with Ohio law, and I keep copies of the commercial regs with me as it is rare that an officer stopping me knows about the differences betwen commercail and non commercial regs.
As far as towing behind a GM, we did a lot of strengthening of the cradle, and adding support braces across the engine bay, but I am still concerned about the impact on the rear of the bus, as my tongue weight can exceed 3,000 lbs under normal normal drive loads. I am in the process of building a device like the "Trailer Toad" to take the hitch weight off the back of the bus. Let me know if you would like more detials.
Dave
PD4501-304
Yes please give me more information.
Hi Scott, the hitch is mounted to the rear bumper and then extends forward under the main engine and rear suspension cradle, so it has multiple tie in points for both pull strength. It then has a second bar under the first also tied forward to the frame and providing some degree of lift support. I then made pre-tensioned bars that ran each side of the motor from the upper rear end cradle to the bumper. I loosen them during normal running then add a few turns of pretension when I hook up the trailer. The hitch is a home made 5th wheel and also has 1000lb load compensating bars. I will try to attach a picture it will show it better than I can describe it.
I couldn't find any pictures of the bars, and have them taken off now getting ready to do the repower.
I can send high resolution pictures to your email if theye are of any use.
Cheers,
Dave
Coincidental that this thread should re-surface because just yesterday I took the photo below which shows something similar to what was being discussed earlier - ie., solving the tongue-weight issue, and in this case also providing a means by which a conventional box-truck can tow a 5th-wheel trailer. I spotted this amongst the vehicles belonging to a circus which has just arrived in my home town.
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.payhost.net%2F5th_wheel_dolly_1.JPG&hash=1fb7a877635a0476d2a339299a6b228d47ebf927)
Jeremy
PS. Yeeolde48 - interesting hitch, never seen anything like that before.
Quote from: Jeremy on February 26, 2014, 04:35:44 AM
Whenever these threads evolve into a discussion about tongue weights, someone eventually mentions the option of a drawbar trailer. Here's one with bizarrely-small wheels (built by a company about a mile from my house as it happens):
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.vipex.co.uk%2Fwp-content%2Fgallery%2Fpirelli-2%2Fimgp2980.jpg&hash=9626048c1378f399d27d3e3330d0c06e8fa32736)
...And then after that someone else will mention devices which effectively turn regular trailers into drawbar trailers:
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dragracingonline.com%2Fitsnew%2Fimages%2F2012%2FTrailer%2FTrailer-Toad.jpg&hash=d1e2342e8ce1bf61c33e066fbcbe8fe08e1ac234)
...And now we're ready for some posts about the expense and difficulties of reversing such trailers...
Jeremy
Does anyone know who makes the small 2 wheel one that eliminates tongue weight?
There are a few different makes, but Trailer Toad appears to be the most popular, this is the one I am basing my design off.
http://www.trailertoad.com/index.html (http://www.trailertoad.com/index.html)
Dave
"PS. Yeeolde48 - interesting hitch, never seen anything like that before."
Hi Jeremy, I picked up a small 5th wheel hitch plate from my local trailer supply house, then built the rest of the hitch. I needed to create a stinger steer configuration to allow me to go to 78 feet in total length. It is pretty strong, but I still have concerns about shock loads so am building a 2 wheel dolly for this summer.
Dave