Hey Guys, I might have opportunity to put a cat 3406 model c in my Eagle. I have a 740 allision 4 speed in now with 8V92 TA any thoughts on the swap.
I have the Cat 3406B 400hp jacket water aftercooled in my truck conversion with the HT740 and 3.55 rears on 11R-24.5. Runs well and I believe that Cat 3406 (B or C) mechanical injected engine is quite possibly the most reliable engine ever made. If you can fit it in (it is tall), would make a great bus engine and you'd probably get 1-3 better mpg. Good Luck, TomC
If it is a electronic 3406C with out the donor rig you will have your work cut out for you charge air piping can be a little problem unless you go to a smaller radiator and mount it beside the radiator.
You should get a lot of advice from Eagle owners there is probably 2 times the Eagle bus owners with Cat engines than with the 60 series or Cummins I love on yellow
Can I use my 3:36 gears with that set up ?
Sure, the 3.36 or even a 3.08 depending on the tranny and final ratio, a 4 speed direct, use the 3.08, if the 4000 series with 2 overdrives, use 3.94 or 3.73.
lots of play area.
The 3:36 is the highest for a Eagle with a drop box if you use a 4000 or any other world transmission you need to go down and 4:11 is the best you can get with the drop box it works
You can do like Sonnie and Wayne and convert to a tag arrangement Sonnie uses a 2:98 with the 740 behind his 3406 or you can go with a Eaton auto like Jim and others with Eagles for gearing
If that is a mechanical 3406 C stay with the 740 Bryon uses a 740 behind his series 60 and so does Pratt with his electronic Cummins both run 3:33 gears
Well I would use the 740 I already have maybe freshin it up, I would like to use all the same running gear and just do the engine swap. refab mounts and reinforce the cradle if needed.
I don't like to run fast, so with my 3.55 and 11R-24.5 (476rpm), with the HT740's direct drive in 4th, my cruise RPM is 55 @ 1549 (really good fuel mileage); 60 @ 1690; 65 @ 1830 (can do this all day long since 1800 is the continuous rpm rating of this [and most other big truck/bus engines] engine); 70 @ 1971; 75 @ 2112; 80 @ 2253; and top speed of 85 @ 2393. My truck weighs about 32,000lbs now and I like the performance. I'm not changing the rear end ratio. Good Luck, TomC
Whats wrong with the 8V92TA? I have a 6V92TA and love it; and I don't have money burning a hole in my pocket for upgrading my bragging rights.
Not worth the change IMO, or is this an Eagle thing?
--Geoff
Unlike you, Geoff, we don't know how to work on the 2 stroke engines-and there are very few good mechanics out there that can work on them. This is the main reason I haven't taken my bus to Alaska-even though virtually everything mechanically on the bus is rebuilt. Come the time when my truck with the Cat 3406B is ready to go, and the first place I'll head to in summer (which summer, I don't know yet) will be Alaska since every engine mechanic still knows how to work on a Caterpillar. Good Luck, TomC
In fact, most everything on the Caterpillar 3406, I can do myself. The Detroit 2 strokes are just plainly weird with all their idiosyncracies in how to set the injection height, injection timing tool, set the rack, make sure the clearance on the rocker arm is correct, set the governor engine speed limit, set the governor idle speed, set the idle control (forgot the correct term to keep the engine from rolling when idling), make sure the transfer pump has enough pressure, etc. On the Caterpillar-install a new injection pump with the timing marks lined up, hook up the injection and fuel lines, set the idle and timing, you're done. Good Luck, TomC
No doubt, the old Detroit engines require a special type mechanic, for me, I had a love affair with them, but realized you better LOVE the engine if you wanted it to be correct, the normal Cat, Cummins mechanic had best keep his fingers out of it or they frequently would over speed and become junk. Its all under the valve covers and buffer screw. Otherwise they were a great engine.
Today I have the Cummins ISM500 computer engine, will not go back to the DDC for a few reasons after being so spoiled, this thing has the 500 hp & 1550 Ft lb torque, and best is after my last 4700 mile run, then a 1200 mile run, the oil levl has not changed enough to see a change. Also capable of better mpg, today average 8.5-9.0 the 12V-71 5.9, the 8V-71 6.9 then with the overdrive RTO910 and 8V-92 7.5 mpg.
Had a lot of fun with empty trucks with the 12V. Today pass cars on mountains, yes I enjoy plenty hp on tap and run down mountains slower than I go up them.
Tom C hit the Nail on the on the head, mine runs great. I just don't no enough to trust it. I do all my own wrenching and can do anything on our Eagle and i have tryed to teach myself with Cliffords help from a distance, and one can say then WHY did you buy it Well I like the bus my wife like the Bus. and no we don't have alot of money falling out of our pockets :-X Now my wife is telling me to run it until it breaks and deal with it when that happens there is only 38,000 miles on a undoctumented motor, you all know how that goes lol.
While modern 4 stroke engines are nice, ( I have several of them in other vehicles), I loved the 4-71 in the Courier 96, and I love the 6V92 in the 5C. To me it is the nostalgia of an era gone by when I used to drive and buses had 2 stroke DDs. I have taught myself how to take care of them. (Still learning...) It is a big part of the hobby for me that I enjoy. Nothing beats the satisfaction of driving the bus after rebuilding or tuning it up, feeling for smoothness and power, looking back for smoke (or lack of) under power, backing it into the shop again to take the valve covers off for tweaking... Going back to the manual and phoning Don Fairchild to understand some intricate detail of setting up the governor just right...
Once it is tuned up properly, it will go to Alaska and back several times with nothing but fuel and oil. And it won't break down anymore than any 4 stroke.
JC
That's what the new owner thought that bought my MC-6.
He had a mechanic go through it and then tried to drive it from Alaska down to Arizona. About 1/4 of the way into the trip, the liner seals started leaking and filled the pan with antifreeze. He didn't catch it in time and completely destroyed the engine. He got it towed back to Homer and I tried talking him into swapping in a 3406B being as he was going to have the engine out anyways, but his mechanic talked him into just going with a new silver 92 because it was a quick change. Anyways, it will be back on the trip next week, hopefully without any problems.
Sent from my GT-I9300
JC,the governor is a good place to ask questions about if not sure I help people that have those all out of whack because they don't the difference on which governor they have and cannot tell you the difference between a single weight or a double weight but yet they try and adjust one lol.
Several of you guys here do good but some should not even touch one plus there are shops that should not even try and work on one they screw up big time IMO
It is real sad for me to see Don going in a different direction away from the 2 strokes back to the Allison but he is just tried of fighting the state of CA and the EPA costing him a lot of money
Him and I both know it is just a matter of time before they are completely ban for highway use or they will impose fees so high and limit the use it not going to be worth it
Evan Cat with all their resources said to hell with it and walked away from a market they were a major player in,times are changing just look at your power bill ::)
My 91 8V92TA has 61,000 miles on it with a 755Cr trans. When The time comes what would be a swap that wouldn't require cutting the back off and starting over. So far on mine no leaks and doesn't use any measurable oil. You can still see all the Silver paint with no visible oil stains.The boys at Prevost Ft. Worth said 8v92 owners didn't have any oil in them if they weren't leaking on the ground. Smart Azz's!
That why they leak Glen people seem ok with leaks I am not one of those if leaks fix it they don't have to leak they are no worse than a Cummins L10 leaking oil I can tell you lol
So far so good with mine You would never know it was 22 years old. Yeah if it leaks you fix it for sure.
My engine leaks oil from the rear main seal, but I am not going to go to all the work of separating the engine and transmission just to fix a minor drip. If it was bad I would fix it. Bryce Gaston had an 8V92 at one point that was leaking a gallon or more every few hundred miles through the rear main. If mine was anywhere close to that bad I would need to fix it.
At the risk of sounding like i'm not happy with my 92 all i want to do is find a motor that I know more about, Mine does not leak any oil or run bad, it' like if my wife asked me to fix her sewing machine I would have that deer in the head lights look. with that said after talking to a few guys that know there stuff that cat is going to be to much work to put in the Eagle but a better choice mikr be a cummins, i can put a cummins in without having to tear out my bedroom or raise the floor. So i will do some reshearch on the Cummins and see what i come up with. I'm thankful for all the comments from a great bunch of people, so glad your all out there.
Andy, the Cummins that will work and have power are electronic I sure would not pull a good 8v92 and replace it with a L10 and the old 855 is not going to work it is big as the 3406 the M-11 and ISM will fit with out raising the bed then you have the gearing to work around if you plan on using the 740
I consider the Cummins M11/ISM to be the right size for a bus. Granted it is electronic, but find a wrecked truck (trash trucks had many including Allison trans) and use all equipment from the truck. You can rebuild a ISM up to 500hp and 1550lb/ft torque. Good luck, TomC
So the M11 will work , Great will the 740 and the 3:36 gears work? on the cats i was going to have to put in a space and new flex plate, will that be the case with the M11 ?
You just buy the hub for the flex plate,Pratt uses a 740 with 3:36 gears behind his ISM, St John I believe has a 740 with 3:36 gears behind his M 11 with that setup the mileage is not going to be that great if you drive interstate speed limits
Thanks Clifford I will call bill and talk with him.
Those involved in this hobby are not so for any practical reasons. Therefore, it would logically follow that some decisions they make are chasing something other than logic. In this particular case, logic would say that you do not try to fix what is working perfectly. However, the majority of those that have converted to 4-strokes have done it at added expense really just because they wanted 4-strokes.
There is nothing wrong with that choice; it is totally in line with this and many other hobbies. Just think, some people even buy boats!
Eagle owners are always doing engine swaps we have people in the club running 650 + hp Cummins,Cat's and Series 60 for what who knows it's just their thing
Andy if you come to our NRG gathering in Scottsdale in Jan. I will show and tell my ISM 450/World Trans. to you. Plus make you a killer margarita buddy. Come on and have fun in the sun. Life's too short to work all the time.
Thanks Mark, I'm thinking is not out of the realm of possibilities yet, at least for the drink ;)will see.
Andy, you must of got done with the rebuild on your chevy pickup to be obseson over swaping engines in your bus, i will trade you a green jeep for your pickup, you have something a little cheaper to obsess over rebuilding....well maybe cheaper..lol
Matt you can leave the jeep with us if yer not wanting to tow it around :)
Van, get your traden shoes on,gonna sell it or trade it. :)
Back when all buses just had a 8v71 the fad then was I need a 8v92 now it is electronic 4 strokes with the price of conversions on the market now sell your bus and buy one with the modern power train it's not going to cost one anymore than engine swap
I have a helicopter engine here on trailer if anyone wants to be different ::)some assembly is required
I've been thinking about a DD16 and a side winder rocket booster. I could always use a little more power.
Ken
Propane injection works for me dave
Yeah you're right on that Clifford, but how the hell do you sell your bus? Have to give 'em away I guess. Maybe export to China?
Selling is a problem Andy thought he had his sold a couple of times
Yea i justr got the word from the buyer he can't get the time off and other issues. So I guess i put a different motor in and call it good.
Quote from: luvrbus on October 21, 2013, 08:51:36 AM
JC,the governor is a good place to ask questions about if not sure I help people that have those all out of whack because they don't the difference on which governor they have and cannot tell you the difference between a single weight or a double weight but yet they try and adjust one lol.
Several of you guys here do good but some should not even touch one plus there are shops that should not even try and work on one they screw up big time IMO
It is real sad for me to see Don going in a different direction away from the 2 strokes back to the Allison but he is just tried of fighting the state of CA and the EPA costing him a lot of money
Him and I both know it is just a matter of time before they are completely ban for highway use or they will impose fees so high and limit the use it not going to be worth it
Evan Cat with all their resources said to hell with it and walked away from a market they were a major player in,times are changing just look at your power bill ::)
I just hope Obama starts a "Cash for Clunker Buses" program before he leaves office.
We might all make out.... ;)
Two bucks a pound ought to do it for me Cliff!
Helicopter engine huh? Turbine or piston? It would be interesting to hear an old engine that powered a BELL 47 working thru an ALLISON automatic. :)
It's a piston Milton
::) You guys are just being silly now lol ;D
If its piston, more than likely a Lycoming.>>>Dan
Quote from: Van on October 23, 2013, 04:33:12 AM
Matt you can leave the jeep with us if yer not wanting to tow it around :)