I seem to have one post per day. This one boggles my mind.
I am in Amarillo, TX
I went to start the bus this morning and it turned real slow. Sounded like I had dead batteries. So I check the batteries and they are each at 12.6v. I went to start it again and it turned slow then stopped. Now when I try to start it it just clicks (like a solenoid click not the starter).
FYI - I was starting in the engine bay with the rear start switch.
Good morning busnuts
Probably the first thing to do is to clean the ends of the cables and the battery posts, even if they look ok there might be enough tarnish/corrosion on them to keep the starter from getting enough juice.
Had something happen like that on my 91 8V92TA and about same voltage last year. Checked all cables. Finally pulled cables off 31's battery posts and cleaned and put charger on batteries to get up to high 12 volts and it cranked as normal. I think mine was a little corrosion under battery posts. Hope you get er fixed.
Good morning to you, too!
Ok, here's the quick run down. Use your house batteries to assist the start batteries. If it cranks with authority the starts have a shorted cell or some other issue. If it doesn't start the starter is suspect or the cable to the started has high resistance.
Good luck. Sending you good karma.
I am scarfing down breakfast then jumping into my ccoveralls. Maybe one day I will get this engine bay steam cleaned.
Thanks for the help
I see the two large cables going to the starter terminals and there are also two smaller (12awg maybe) cables. What are the smaller ones? It looks like the PO used a small vice to clamp the one off the negative terminal to the chassis. I'll bet this has something to do with my issue.
Quick review-- Merely because the battery terminals do not look bad does not mean they are making good contact. Remove them, clean well enough to make sure the oxidation on the terminals and post is gone, and replace them. Make sure all the cable connections from the batteries to the starter and chassis are clean and tight. Even if that doesn't work, it's a good preventative maintenance chore anyway. It would be good to charge the batteries if you can and test them with a hydrometer to see if you have bad cells. Remember, the hydrometer needs a fully charged battery to give you an accurate reading. Battery voltage can test well but if there are bad cells, they may not work. Next, try jumping from the house or car batteries. If there is no difference then you are heading into a deeper issue like the starter, but it does not sound like that. And yes, if any ground you have is only held on by a clamp, bolt it in.
Disnow,
This coupled with your other post about black smoke makes me wonder if you don't have something else besides cables here. Low power, black smoke could be related to your blower and the seals inside of it and there a number of major engine issues that could keep the motor from turning freely, including the blower, the power steering pump, the alternator etc.. There are others here that know alot more than I do but I believe these issues could be related. I've done the cleaning cables/grounds thing and it isn't fun, battery powered drill at high speed with a wire brush and they sell a terminal sealant that will help keep it from happening. Make no mistake about it this is a dirty job.
Remember to disconnect your battery at the front main disconnect and according to the instructions if you have a vanner equalizer before you remove the grounds in the engine compartment or you'll end up doing some unintended welding!!
Good luck and let us know what you find out
RB
Time to changes the brushes in the starter IMO
RB- Make sure that if you use those terminal sealer sprays you apply it after everything is hooked up and tightened.
So far here is what I have done and have figured out.
I cleaned all exposed terminals and connections on the starter. Used carb cleaner on metal elements and a wire brush to ensure solid connections. I also followed the ground leads (two of them) and cleaned and brushed the connection to chassis. I tapped and permanently affixed the clamped ground to the chassis.
Same thing...loud click (like a solenoid) and no turning it doesn't sound like the starter even tries to go.
I opened the electrical panel on the left side of the engine and located the relay that was clicking.
It has two larger leads off the left and right and two in the front of it (front left and front right).
Here are the volt readings for when the start switch is off and on.
Switch off
L 0v
Fl 0v
Fr 0v
R 25.9v
Switch on
L 25v
Fl 25v
Fr 41mv (millivolts)
R 25v
I am going to see if I can get a reading on the starter with the switch in the same place.
Disconnect the fuel pressure switch and give it a try
I bypassed the other switches, and mounted a momentary on switch right on the starter. That way, no matter what, if I had juice I could spin the starter. I love that mod....
I measured the voltage at the starter terminal.
It is at 24v when the switch is pressed and at 0 with the switch off.
Should I still check the fuel pressure switch? I will need some guidance locating it if so.
Why does it always have to be cold outside when I need to work on the bus? Lol
Reading maintenance manual it describes the starter solenoid that pushes the starter gear into the flywheel mesh closes the circuit that energizes the starter.
I am going to go measure the voltage at the solenoid to see if that is getting voltage.
First thing is that if the solenoid is clicking it most likely isn't the fuel pressure switch. The fuel pressure switch is on the secondary filter head and provides the path to ground for the starter solenoid. If it clicks it has ground. Second, the solenoid does two separate things. The big click is it pushing the pinion out with a lever so that it can engage the flywheel. That is done by energizing a big coil that is an electromagnet. The other thing is does is it has a copper disc behind the two big wire terminals and it makes the connection between them when the coil is energized. You can, if you are careful, bridge between those two terminals with a big screwdriver to momentarily spin the starter motor. That will prove out the motor itself. Be aware that it might try to weld itself and stick, so use a big screwdriver with leverage to take it off again once the starter spins for a second. If the starter spins, you can undo the big wire connections and take the front of the solenoid off to expose the copper disc, and you will probably see it burnt. You can clean it up or rotate it a bit so the spots that make the circuit are clean. Luke told me this so it must be true (my problem turned out to be the fuel pressure switch when I had an issue so I didn't take my solenoid apart)
So step one, bridge the terminals to see if the motor spins, if it spins take the solenoid apart and see if you can clean up the connections inside. If the motor doesn't spin, buy a new motor or get yours rebuilt. You don't want to take the solenoid off if you can help it, just take the front off. It's PITA to get the levers to work the pinion right, and I don't know if you could even do it with the starter mounted on the engine.
Hope this helps a bit.
Brian
I misspoke before. I can hear the relay click in the electrical box. I cannot hear or feel the solenoid engaging the pinion into the flywheel. What is confusing to me is that I can read the voltage passing through the terminals on the solenoid.
And I believe the PO already bypassed the fuel pressure. That was probably the wire clamped to the frame.
I am going to write down the electrical schematic and study the manual. Some things aren't making sense. I must be missing something as I can detect voltage everywhere I think it should be.
Could my solenoid be stuck engadged?
I don't know he is wired but on my MCI 8 when the pressure switch was bad it would click,one never knows for sure without a lot of trial and error,but his sounds like it may be starter time the low voltage protection and brushes can be a nightmare on the 42 Delco ,can you turn the engine over with a wrench ? got a 1-1/2 wrench or socket with you
The solenoid could be stuck. When you check for voltage at the solenoid be sure to measure across it's terminals, not from the positive terminal to some other ground. Check that voltage switches at the solenoid positive terminal when the starter switch is thrown and the relay in the panel clicks. Check where the wire from the solenoid ground terminal actually goes and make sure it is connected to a good clean ground. Make sure you are working on the right terminals - the solenoid control terminals are the little ones with a small nut on them and 14 gauge wire. The starter motor terminals are the big ones with a 3/4" nut and a 4/0 cable on them. If it is getting voltage switched by the starter switch and relay, has a good ground and still does nothing when you do that, it's broken. Next step is hit it with a hammer, give it a few good solid clouts, and see if that helps. Some times that helps a lot, other times it just makes you feel better...
Brian
Before you do this, make sure you wear a face sheld, since it will probably produce a big spark. With jumper cables hooked to the batteries, attach the negative to the starter shell (the mounting bolts is good). Then with the positive try touching the big bolt that takes the current from the solenoid to the starter. If it sparks with nothing, or doesn't do any thing, then the motor is toast. If the starter motor spins, then it probably is a bad starter solenoid. Best is just take the starter off and test it. Good Luck, TomC
Low voltage protection you say. Do you know where the cutoff point is?
I really need to get a hygrometer and get these batteries charged.
I do have a 18 inch wrench and can turn the engine over. It does turn thank god.
Take the starter off have it tested you will need a rebuilding shop Auto Parts houses are not good at testing 24v starters are you at the welcome center on I 40 in Amarillo if so Grand Electric off 1 40 on Grand St may have the starter in stock or can test yours 1-800-572-8042
Cliff - I am at the Walmart on the east side just off I40
Brian - I was testing voltage with the negative lead on the chassis this whole time. I will test the way you described and see what I have.
I feel like I will be removing this thing. How hard is the removal?
You are not far from Grand those are heavy suckers but not hard to to remove save the easy bolt for last the top bolt is the worst 30 minutes you will have it off
Get a 1" ratchet strap to hold the starter up while you take it off and on, if you have the 12 point small diameter head bolts you'd need a 12 point socket, and you'll need some extensions of different lengths, the one's with the wobble ends work good. I also used a floor jack to hold it up when installing one once.
Brian
Let's back up here guys. If it is the solenoid, correct me if I am wrong, he should be able to knock start it with a heavy rubber mallet. Basically, have somebody else hit the switch, while you wallop that solenoid to try to free it. We have had to do that several times, when our solenoid is starting to get iffy. I have yet (that isn't saying much) to have a solenoid just lay down and quit on me, just like that.
It would at least get your rolling.
Thoughts?
I already suggested the hit it with a hammer repair, so I thought that had been tried. If not, go for it, it's worked for me before.
Brian
Since you are already at Walmart, I would assume that their auto department would be able to load test the batteries. You might even be able to convince someone there to bring the load tester out to the bus in the parking lot rather than have to bring the batteries to them. This would be better since, aside from not having to cart the batteries over, they could connect to the outside of the terminal rather than the posts.
Since the problem started with slow turning and deteriorated to the clicking, it would not seem to be the solenoid unless there are several issues.
ck to see if bolts that hold starter in are tight. loose starter bolts will give similar results.
Heavy indeed and the bolt behind the starter is a lot of fun. Long extension and 12 point 9/16 socket I believe. Check your fuel pressure switch that comes off the fuel filters. There will be a wire going to it and another 10 or 12 gauge wire coming off of it and going to the frame or such as a ground. The sending unit that they go to will look like an oil pressure sending unit basically. This needs to ground out or it disables the starter. Basically it works in reverse order of what you think it should. You can disable it by directly grounding it out. I'm thinking that is the smaller gauge line you are talking about. No fuel pressure will make a ground enabling the starter to work while fuel pressure will disable the ground making the starter not engage. They seem to have problems from time to time. If you have 2 wires going to it basically tie them together. They are just ground wires. Just my idea.
So here is my update.
Grand Battery does have the starter in stock <$200 with core exchange. Not bad but they don't reopen till Monday.
I took out the bus batteries and am taking them in for a load test and charge. Not sure where yet but I will find a place. I need to pickup a hygrometer and some distilled water as they were/are quite low.
Not sure how the water level got so low over the last 5 months but they look half full.
That will do it. The bus alternator will always somewhat overcharge a battery, and it will use water, if you are running it much. Check level monthly if you drive it daily, is in the manual somewhere.
Brian
The water was actually covering the plates. Batteries are charging and I am cleaning every connection I can find. One was pretty rough looking on the battery. Looks like the battery door was rubbing on it and welding the bolt to the terminal.
WalMart always has distilled water. It is quite cheap.
I was really confident after cleaning all the battery cables. I found this one and just cut it off and put a new 4/0 lug on it.
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After re-installing the batteries (each passed a 1400 CCA load test and charged at the Oreileys for a couple hours).
I still have the same result - a click coming from the relay.
So I had my wife hit the starter button in the engine bay while I smacked the solenoid on top of the starter and I heard it release (it must have been stuck forward). Still just a click when I hit the starter so I smacked it a few more times while she was hitting the switch and it did turn for a second then nothing.
I will remove it today/tomorrow and bring it into Grand Battery to see what they think.
This walmart is like an RV campground at night. I hope they dont ask us to leave.
Help me out. I guess I confused as to what is clicking is it the starter solenoid or the relay?
Thanks John
They won't ask you to leave if you are waiting on parts ,one thing if you like Mexican Food you are in heaven in that area we always stop at the El Tejavan or Ruby Teguila's and the Tortilla Factory on 40 is not bad some good steak houses in that area also make the most of it drive to the Canyon Sun
It is the relay. The solenoid sitting on top of the starter as well as the started are silent when I hit the start button.
Thanks for the recommendations I will check one of those places out now.
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You'll be developing those MCI7 hands with Detroit Diesel tatoos. Have wifey stay way back or you'll be out the cost of a whole month of manicures!
She must be a real keeper, 'cause even after all these trials and tribulations, she's still "in the picture". After you get this fixed, hope everything else is smooth sailing.
Actually in the background is my 8 year old daughter. She was scrubbing the ends to get those copper terminals shining. Kids and wife are all taking it real well. It could be worse. Like if we were on the side of the expressway.
I'm taking them out for Mexican.
Doyle didn't the starter on your bus start spinning slower and slower and you thought it was the new batteries ? I forgot why we changed it out
Yeppa. I thought engine was just tight from the rebuild, but I took the starter to Kingman and had it rebuilt. $4.00 per pound times 65 pounds so a rebuilt for $200 with core looks like a bargain. When I moved the bus 2 weeks ago it faltered a bit but started. The voltage gauge showed down a bit so I topped the batteries off and we'll see if it fires up when I head to Sonnie's next week. I'm on my 3rd Schumacher 6 amp battery topper-offer in the last 18 months. This one is a XC6-CA
I sure hope the you realized that when cleaning those batteries and contacts you should be wearing cloths that you really want to get holes in!
As I said before, if it was me, I would put a momentary on switch back there, so you can start it with nothing else in the way.
I am trying to understand your situation. It spins just fine if you jump it. When you try to start it with the switch up front, it just clicks. The click is NOT coming from the starter solenoid, but from a relay that is close to it. The solenoid on the starter itself, does not click or do anything. Just is silent. Am I correct so far?
If that is the case, I am doubting that the starter is the problem. Could it be your start relay (if there is such a thing)? I am thinking that something is happening before your starter.
Here is what I would do, in your situation. I would go back to OReilly's and get a push button heavy duty switch. The kind that you push in, and it is on, let off, and it is off. Then wire that up from your voltage in, to your solenoid on the starter. Basically, you are putting a start switch right back in the engine compartment, cutting everything else out of the loop (except for the starter solenoid, of course). When you have that in place, turn the master switch on, then go to the back and hit your switch. If you installed it correctly, I am thinking that will start your bus. It completely avoids your other relay that is clicking, and you start it "manually".
Methinks, if your starter isn't the issue (and this will rule it in or out), that will get you on the road. Does my post make sense? It is at least another troubleshooting step for you, and the switch will be there for the future. Something just isn't adding up here, and this might help.
I know exactly what you are going through, and I feel for you. Clifford knows, last time our bus wouldn't start, we were in Boise. It wouldn't turn over, it wouldn't click. NOTHING. I thought no problem, and went back to my trust switch I had installed next to the starter, and hit it. The starter spun alright, but the bus wouldn't start. Long story short, we found our fuse for the transmission computer was blown. That wouldn't allow the bus to do anything, if it didn't hear from the transmission.
Anyways, does the push button make sense? If not, let me know, and I can explain in more detail.
Cheers,
John
I would double check the ground on the fuel pressure switch. I believe Clifford mentioned this earlier. I had the click thing one time and found the ground for the fuel switch bad. I ran a wire as shown in picture and my clicking problem went away. :D
John
Thanks for helping everyone.
A quick recap for all
The procedure...
Bus is on
Engine switch is set to run
master switch is on
Buzzer for low air pressure is going
I go to back of bus to the engine bay
I press the rear start button and hear a click coming from the electrical panel (I have isolated the relay there)
No sound or anything from the starter or starter solenoid
What I have done so far
used a voltmeter to verify voltage (at starter, on relay)
Verified that when the rear start button is pressed the solenoid does pass voltage through to the starter terminal
Turned the engine with a big wrench to make sure it turns (it does)
I have verified the ground on the starter goes directly to the frame not to the fuel pressure switch
I have cleaned all electrical connections at the batteries and at the starter/solenoid
I have not applied a 24v power source directly to the starter or solenoid
Tomorrow I am going to see if I can find the relay in the book and see if that is the issue.
Thanks for the support. You guys are awesome.
Just throwing some thoughts out, random order...
There are two grounds for the starter motor - the big cable for the motor, and the solenoid has a separate small gauge wire to ground from one of it's terminals. Both are independent, both have to be good.
Grab a normal battery booster cable, clip one end to the positive battery post in the engine compartment, and tap the other end on the positive terminal of the solenoid. Easy, safe, low current so no real sparks, and it will finally answer the question of is the solenoid/motor OK or not. This should have been done in the first 20 minutes of working on this thing, but that's water under the bridge.
The starter relay is the same as the reverse solenoid relay in the rear junction box, so you could swap it in as a test, if you have a standard transmission. You could also probably substitute a normal Ford style starter solenoid for it.
Brian
Go to AutoZone or any parts house they will have a remote button, check if you have 24v on the solenoid connect one lead from the remote button to the hot battery cable on the solenoid connect the other lead to the small start terminal on the solenoid not knowing which solenoid you have it could be on the bottom or up higher on the side of the solenoid with connections made push the button if the starter or solenoid is not bad it will start
A safe easy way to do it and keeps you out of harms way kinda like John 316 is describing who has had his share of starter problems over the years ::)Back to your 1st post I would say it is stater time
Quote from: bevans6 on October 20, 2013, 03:32:12 AM
Just throwing some thoughts out, random order...
Grab a normal battery booster cable, clip one end to the positive battery post in the engine compartment, and tap the other end on the positive terminal of the solenoid. Easy, safe, low current so no real sparks, and it will finally answer the question of is the solenoid/motor OK or not. This should have been done in the first 20 minutes of working on this thing, but that's water under the bridge.
Brian
I saw the title of this thread and did not bother reading any of it as I guessed that at the end there would be some simple advice to trouble shoot the starter and solenoid. And there was. Over the years on various forums that care for older vehicles the same issue comes up again and again, starters are pretty simple beasts, bypassing everything (including the solenoid if possible) is a good place to start, as at least then you know if the main concern is your main concern. Many years ago, before the internet I used to go to the library for this info and study wiring diagrams in shop manuals etc to see how the circuits work, a basic understanding of simple circuits etc allows for much faster diagnosis.
Often on forums the suggestion get quite complex, sometimes because the posters assume that the OP has already covered the basics, as always KIS.
Great post Brian.
Old starters are simple they work or they don't sometimes a starter will spin but under a load it won't it is a 10 hp+ electric motor simple, main power supply,ground,a auxiliary power supply to engage the solenoid to complete the circuit sorta like turning a light switch off/on
The battery booster cable idea is the low rent version of Cliffords recommendation to get a remote starter switch from an Autozone. The remote starter switch is far and away the better idea, but I had a Chevy Vega once that I started for two months with a screwdriver to bridge the terminals on the starter, I was 17 and a screwdriver was cheaper than fixing the thing. Plus it was a Vega, so it was hard to do something to it that it didn't deserve... ;D
Brian
I've been plagued by starters and poor charging for my entire life. I remember an old Suzuki 650 bike that refused to charge properly even after changing stators and V reg repeatedly....In the end I would just push start it every time, my cars have always been manuals for the same reason....Buses are a different beast, even though mine is manual I would not like to push start.....but I would if I really had to....somehow.
Brian , I have a permanent wedding band on my hand from a screw driver trying to start a bus I shorted the wedding band out and it melted on my finger that is why I like the button now days lol
OK I agree...we keep it simple and troubleshoot 1 thing at a time.
I can test the starter the way Brian says.
I couldn't find it labeled in the manual but believe the terminal on the back of the starter is the ground and the one on the side right between the large solenoid terminals is the positive.
I will get a 30 foot jumper to get the positive from the battery bay (the 24v positive) and connect it directly to the positive on the starter motor.
Do I understand right that I am expecting and hoping to hear it spin freely since the solenoid isn't holding the pinion into the flywheel mesh.
Correct
You don't need a jumper cable from the battery if you are getting 24v on the battery side of the solenoid jump from it
OK. I can jump from the positive (in) terminal on the solenoid to the positive on the starter motor. A lot less cable.
Don't need a long jumper cable. There are two large lugs on the solenoid. One should have 24v on it. If not repair the connections from the battery. Connect them to test the starter only without engaging the solenoid. If it turns connect the battery lead to the small lug that comes from the relay. The other small lug should be ground. The solenoid should engage and the starter turn. If not tell us what did or did not happen.
To do this safely connect the positive lead of the jumpers to one large lug and the negative lead to the other. Then stand clear and connect the other two clamps to act as the switch. Best to connect the clamps at the starter with the batteries off to avoid unwanted surprises.
Good luck
Don
Thanks Don I got it
So I did the following
Main power on
Master switch on
Placed jumper (red) on positive terminal (on side) of the starter motor (not solenoid)
Placed opposite side of same jumper cable (red) on positive (in) on solenoid
There were small sparks
No sound coming from starter motor
Thoughts?
Also I did test voltage at the starter motor terminals and there was ~24 volts when my wife was pushing the switch (that was yesterday). I do not have an ammeter.
You should have 24v at the battery terminal on the solenoid with out pushing the button with only the master switch on ,do you have 24 v there ? there is no relay ,override or interlock switch that can kill that cable only the master switch so check for 24 volt on that terminal
When I check voltage it all seems good. Here is what I have in each scenario
Start switch off
Solenoid large positive terminal (the one on the outside) 24v
Solenoid large positive terminal (the one near the engine) 0v
Starter positive 0v
Switch on
24v at all the terminals above
I have not tested the voltage on the solenoid though
If I understand right the starter motor should turn when I put the jumper on it. It didn't.
I am surprised that both the solenoid and starter are not working.
Take a wire and jump the solenoid from the hot battery side of solenoid to the start terminal on the solenoid (small wire terminal) it should click
If you have positive +24V at all those terminals and nothing is happening you either have no ground at all to the starter motor (highly unlikely) or you have a bad starter motor. Next step is pull it, take it to that shop that is open tomorrow and have them test it, repair or replace.
Brian
I applied 24v by hanging a wire off the solenoid large positive IN and touching it to the small solenoid positive and it sparks but no sound or action from the solenoid.
I am suspicious of the wire that was clamped to the frame that I recently tapped into the frame. I am going to take a picture of my setup and label it all to make sure I am not confused. The manual does not spell out which terminals are which very well but I can follow the ones that lead to ground and am assuming the opposite posts are hot.
I will upload a pic.
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Is my understanding correct on this thing?
Mine is a 12v left hand detroit starter but here is how I bench test it.
Check out this video on YouTube:
http://youtu.be/NNDucru4YFA (http://youtu.be/NNDucru4YFA)
Ok it looks normal the neutrals are ground the wire you call solenoid positive where is it connected if on the bottom of the solenoid to one of the small terminals it is wired right check the ground with a test light on the starter connect the lead to the cable of the neutral as you call it touch the point to positive( in) if it lights the ground is good when using a meter or light on the starter always ground on the starter that will tell you if the ground is good on the starter
Here's a document that you might find useful -it has some circuit diagrams and test procedures.
http://delcoremy.com/Documents/diagnostic-manual.aspx (http://delcoremy.com/Documents/diagnostic-manual.aspx)
Steve
Cliff - I will get in there tomorrow morning and check that out. I dont have a test light but I have a multimeter and assume I am looking for acceptable voltage (23 - 25v) between the hot and ground on the starter motor with the starter switch turned on.
One thing supporting a ground problem - While I was first "poking" around with the multimeter I recall testing the ground on the starter to the ground I tapped on the chassis and getting 24v. At the time I thought the starter motor terminal on the back was hot and it got its ground from being bolted to the engine. So I will test that after performing the test you mention above. I could also be remembering wrong (it happens). Hopefully the cause of this issue presents itself tomorrow. I am ready to get behind the wheel again.
Steve, that is a very detailed doc and a good overview of the basics of electricity, thank you - I save it for future reference - awesome.
I think MCI calls that relay, the starting relay (on our DL3). I have replaced that before. BTDT
I agree with Cliff, check your grounds. Shoot, you could even run new ones. WM sells battery cables.
It probably won't hurt to replace your starter one way or the other. That is what I do lol. I really hope that fixes it, but I kinda doubt it will.
Keep us updated.
John
Just a hint when talking about problems like this. When referring to DC wiring, use the terms battery and ground, not positive, negative or neutral, not in and out. That can be very confusing to anyone trying to help.
Thanks Len, I really wasn't sure what to call them.
This morning while putting the relay panel back on I discovered a heavy duty wire from the alternator that came off. It was the Battery side connection and it was touching the frame. So I put that back on the alternator.
I then tested voltage as Cliff asked (I don't have a 24v light) and get 0v while pushing the start switch across the starter terminals. I do get 24v at the solenoid but no sound / no action.
I tested the ground on starter to chassis ground and get 0v .
I jumped the starter to apply voltage directly to the starter motor and get no sound or anything.
I am pulling the starter off and taking it to grand battery after I pickup the appropriate 12point socket.
When testing grounds you should be using Ohm side if multi-meter. (upside down horseshoe)
And it if that was what you were using it's 0 ohms not V.
Just making sure you weren't looking for volts.
;D BK ;D
You should read volts testing a hot wire to a ground test lights are simple for testing IMO I don't use a meter but very little when chasing lights and wiring problems a hot and ground they light up
Hey BK - I wasn't testing resistance...testing Volts as I thought I detected voltage between the starter ground and the chassis ground. So I was testing voltage on two grounds to make sure there wasn't a short energizing the chassis.
I removed the starter (quite easy) and took it to grand battery. They tested it and it is bad. Both the solenoid and starter. I watched and the solenoid did slowly push the pinion forward and it spun really slow and stopped then wouldn't spin again when he tried again. Voltage to starter direct didn't spin the starter either.
They are swapping the housing.
I think for installing it I will use a jack to hold it up. Any other suggestions?
Quote from: Dlsnow on October 21, 2013, 09:14:23 AM
I removed the starter (quite easy)...
I think you have the wrong starter or bus! ;D
Now you are on the right track lol I forgot to tell you the Mexican food in that area is a Tex/Mex probably different than your home area but it was the kind I grew up with and love the stuff, Mexican food we have in AZ sucks to me
good luck
Its running now!
Thanks all for hanging in there with me.
Recap of what I experienced and what I did.
Bus ran fine all day then wouldn't start.
The starter turned real slow then stopped a couple times. Then stopped all together. All I could hear in engine bay was the relay clicking.
I cleaned all terminals on battery and starter. Both sides of any connection I could find
Tested voltage at all points on the starter and solenoid
discovered my alternator battery connection was shorting on the chassis
Reattached alternator with with new lug
Tested starter and solenoid by Jumping 24v to it directly no soind or reaction from either.
Took starter in and it tested bad.
Replaced starter and we are running now.
You all are an awesome resource. Thanks from all of us.
Dave and Amy
Good for you. Good job, well done. Not easy if you aren't a sparky.
Brian
Dave & Amy,
Praying that the rest of your trip is trouble free! ;D
Steve
Dave,
Nice work. Glad you got it figured out. Hope the rest of the trip goes well!
Have fun,
John
He knows now after 20 minutes of testing remove the starter and have it tested
Quote from: luvrbus on October 21, 2013, 07:07:32 PM
He knows now after 20 minutes of testing remove the starter and have it tested
lol. BTDT
Now, I have my button back there. I don't even need 20mins of testing. If I push my bypass start button, and nothing happens, then I am checking batteries. If they are good, I am totally putting a new starter in.
Oh yes, I do carry another starter ;D
No doubt it would probably take 20 min to diagnose now. Although it was a productive breakdown. Got a few other things taken care of.Made it to Alamogordo last night. Picking up a solar/DC powered chest freezer for the bus today in ElPaso.
Thanks again for all the help.
El Paso? Now that's Mexican Food Clifford. Dave, go to L&J Cafe by the Concordia Cemetery on I-10 (3622 E Missouri Ave (915) 566-8418) Green enchiladas... Ole!
El Paso is for steaks Doyle I forget about Mexican Food the steak house in the middle of no where the place you took us to eat that is good lol and he can camp there for the night free
Yep, Cattlemen's Steak House, I-10 East, Fabens Exit 49 north about 5 miles. 32oz T-bone still under $30
• Voted the Manliest Steakhouse in America, 2012 by Men's Health magazine
• Voted one of the TOP TEN restaurants in Texas by the readers of Texas Highways magazine twice!
• "Best Steak in El Paso" by El Paso Times readers - Every Year
• Featured on Discover America's Destination Steak as one of the best steakhouses in the US. Discover America is owned by the Discovery Channel.
• Featured on the Travel Channel's show Food Paradise as one of the best steakhouses in the US.
• Voted "Best Spot for Steaks" by What's Up weekly magazine readers every year.
• Voted "Best Steakhouse in El Paso" by The City magazine.
• "Best Steak in the Country", said Michael Stern in People magazine.
The atmosphere and history of that place will blow you away plus the free 20amp service on top of the hill for RV parking is unheard of at a restaurant
Cliff, That's funny, 20 amp free service. Man that would run the toaster on one of these new high dollar energy hog coaches!
LOL Glen I believe the 20 amps services there have been installed longer than the high dollar energy hogs have been around
Quote from: muldoonman on October 22, 2013, 07:51:41 AM
Cliff, That's funny, 20 amp free service. Man that would run the toaster on one of these new high dollar energy hog coaches!
With a big inverter I run on 20 amps most of the time when visiting friends and relatives. But don't run A/C. It really depends on how you set it up and what you are willing to sacrifice. Man did this thread drift LOL
John
Yea it did but he is traveling and we don't want him and family to go hungry lol
I can run anything I want on my bus with a 20amp plug-only one at a time. Since my only propane is the stove and furnace, heating the water, making coffee, etc has to be done carefully. After the batteries are up, I can run one roof A/C all day long (that's all I need when parked). Good Luck, TomC
The real question at this point is how long can you run on the 36 oz porterhouse from the best steak house in America? That would last my family probably three days... ::) We can order steak a whole lot better than we can eat it these days. And the problem is ordering an 8oz steak and getting it cooked right - hard to do. We now order or buy a nice 12 - 16 oz steak and split it. Steak is very important to bus owners, isn't it? We should have a thread about best portable grills or something ;D. I favor a ceramic kettle grill (like a Big Green Egg) for when I want to really grill a nice steak. I fire it with hard wood charcoal and hard maple wood... ;D But too heavy for portable use...
How is that for thread drift? 8) The starter is fixed, lets talk about food! Ha!
Brian
You did good Brian ::)
Clifford, I am taking a set of 8 N65 injectors plus a complete set of non-jake bridge pipes with me tomorrow so I can ship them to you as cores for the set of N75's you shipped to me. They worked great, and far less smoke. I will be shipping them out of Detroit. Unless you have no use for a set of used N-65's, in which case I will save them for the next guy who needs a helping hand.
Brian
Quote from: bevans6 on October 22, 2013, 04:13:15 PM
The real question at this point is how long can you run on the 36 oz porterhouse from the best steak house in America? That would last my family probably three days... ::) We can order steak a whole lot better than we can eat it these days. And the problem is ordering an 8oz steak and getting it cooked right - hard to do. We now order or buy a nice 12 - 16 oz steak and split it. Steak is very important to bus owners, isn't it? We should have a thread about best portable grills or something ;D. I favor a ceramic kettle grill (like a Big Green Egg) for when I want to really grill a nice steak. I fire it with hard wood charcoal and hard maple wood... ;D But too heavy for portable use...
How is that for thread drift? 8) The starter is fixed, lets talk about food! Ha!
Brian
I didn't hook my A/C units or my hot water heater through my inverter. I'm considering hooking my hot water heater through it though. When I'm hooked to 20 amp power my inverter does a good job of load shearing until the water heater kicks in and the inverter can't see that load. That's when I have to go looking for the shore breaker panel. I was hooked to my garage in Montana when I kicked the breaker out. The panel of course was in the garage and the only way in was though the garage door that was plugged into the same circuit the bus was plugged into. Needless to say I need to get a new window now LOL. I do not like the steak talk here. I am in the Dominican right now and I will tell you the food is not the same as back home. Welcome to my 28 days of sobriety. LOL
Let's keep drifting LOL
John
Glad Dave's got his bus up and running, Hows this for a drift.
I've got 91 All Electric Prevost and can't afford steaks out. Bus eats everything I have up. Have a big gen set though, Start her up ( since Justin Griffith/Tayor tx. got heating problem solved) ) and don't worry about amp service.
PS.
Have all my own steaks walking around out here.
Wait up on those injectors -
I am currently running C60's although I think I want to get this but out to Clifford before I go buying new injectors all willie nillie.
Wanted to say thanks again - we made it to Tucson with only one more issue. While cresting a hill the engine shutoff (overtemp).
I found water/antifreeze pouring from the bottom of the enginebay. and found a blue hose about 1" OD line coming from the back of the air compressor to a large pipe running from the front along the floor of the enginebay.
It was frayed from rubbing on a piece of metal probably for years and finally started leaking.
I was able to cleanup the hose and use radiatorhose tape (heavyduty high temp ducttape) and seal it back up. It held for the rest of the drive. I think I will start a new post about that issue.
Thanks again - Back to food - Tex/Mex food in elpaso was awesome. I dont speak spanish so it was fun ordering - I just picked three things off the menu at random. It was all good.
Well, in a week or so Clifford will have a set of 8 N65's some are stuck and I didn't get them loosened up (didn't have a handy way to pump solvent through them). I also sent him a complete set of non-Jake fuel pipes and stands. Maybe they will get used some day...
Brian
Quote from: Dlsnow on October 23, 2013, 11:49:13 AM... It was frayed from rubbing on a piece of metal probably for years and finally started leaking. I was able to cleanup the hose and use radiatorhose tape (heavyduty high temp ducttape) and seal it back up. ...
One thing that has gotten a few people home is that if you have enough length and the leak is near an end (they often are), you can cut the end with the leaking area off and then re-seat it. Some people have splice tube kits (a tube with O/D the same size and the inside diameter of the hose, plus hose clamps) and they often work. Also, what works sometimes is wrapping with the radiator hose tape and then hose clamps on the outside to help secure it all.
If you're having overheating with C60 injectors, it'll only get worse with N65 since it will be more fuel to the engine. Get you're cooling system in shape first. Good Luck, TomC
The overheat was due to a coolant leak. It doesn't overheat since I went through the cooling system and sealed every nook and cranny, replaced thermostats and replaced flushed/filled the whole system.
I don't know if I will switch out the injectors as these c60's get me where I need to.
Are there any benefits to switching injectors other than more power?
You also get to use more fuel, and make black smoke :o
Brian