I got my bad tire replaced this morning. I specifically asked about if they hand torqued the lug nuts. They said they hand torqued them so I thought that was good.
After sitting inside for a while I went out to see how things were going. One of the guys was checking the torque with a torque wrench. The stupid thing is I realized they used the 1" impact to install the lug nuts! Is there even a point of checking the torque if you're going to install them with a 1" impact? They were most likely all over torqued by the impact.
All depends where he had the impact set and how long he hammered,a good tire guy with a adjustable 1 inch impact can put those on the money if he was using a H/F 1in impact they may not have been tight enough
If I set my 1" impact gun at low, it spins the nut on and stops at 300 ft lbs or so, particularly if you don't let it hammer more than once. If you are worried just loosen a few off and torque them again, paying attention to how hard they are to loosen.
Brian
If you do them yourself you never have to worry about it again.....you will know it was done right!
Can a good tire man control a 1" impact well enough not to excessively torque the nuts? I'm not really concerned about them being too tight. I guess my definition of torquing the nuts by hand and their definition were different. I thought they would use the torque wrench for the final tightening.
I actually brought my Tireman torque wrench and socket with me to the shop, but they said they would hand torque them so I didn't ask if I could torque the nuts myself. I don't have the tools or talent to mount my own tire so I have the shop do it.
Quote from: bevans6 on September 07, 2013, 04:49:32 PM
If I set my 1" impact gun at low, it spins the nut on and stops at 300 ft lbs or so, particularly if you don't let it hammer more than once. If you are worried just loosen a few off and torque them again, paying attention to how hard they are to loosen.
Isn't the damage done once they are overtightened? I have nothing at home to loosen the lug nuts. I have a 3/4" impact, but my compressor apparently doesn't supply enough air as it wouldn't loosen a lug nut when I tried last week. I have been looking at one of those torque multipliers designed for removing lug nuts, but I haven't ordered one yet.
Sure he can I am not even a tire man and I can do it I check only 1 lug against the impact with the Proto torque wrench then I know the setting and how many hits it take to reach the desired torque it's not a rocket science
With 80 lug nuts on your bus and the same with my X Eagle a person would need to be nuts to tighten and check each one with a torque wrench IMO
Luvrbus: how often does a bus nut have to tighten the nuts on all 10 wheels at once on the same day?
I have too many times seen tire shops put the nuts on with the 1" gun, then go around with the torque wrench set at 500 lbs and go click, click, and say they are torqued, when in fact they might have been tightened to 600 lbs or more, and the torque wrench for sure is going to go click, click. And when asked about it, say that they are doubled checking that they are tight enough. Sure they are: they are too tight!
I do my own, one at a time, and they are done right.
JC
Bryan
For most of the small air compressors, the problem is not enough reserve air to do the job of removing the lug nut if the wrench can produce the necessary torque. I have a porter pancake compressor and learned from practice that was the problem for my compressor. I use a 3/4 air wrench from HF with 500 ft pounds torque. I got a 20 gal air tank (the carrying reserve air tank type) from a pawn shop and changed the fittings so I can run from my compressor through the tank then to my wrench. Once I did that, I no longer have difficulty removing tight lug nuts unless they are way over torqued, someplace north of 600. I have a multiplier wrench for those I found at a pawn shop. My point is the the extra small tank can make it possible for your air wrench to work most of the time. If you are near southern MO anytime, you're welcome to use the multiplier wrench.
Rob
Missouri
I have had all 8 off mine more than once over the years JC I never broke a stud, lost a wheel or stripped a nut doing my own the only wheel that was ever broke was done by Southern Oregon Diesel
We all do it different torquing ever nut is just not my cup of tea I almost forgot I am a big fan of never seize on the lugs and aluminum wheels too
Interesting and normal, I also did my own on the MC7, had to get a 3/4" GOOD air impact, not a H/F econo, found using a 1/2" air line with larger couplers and the compresser psi set at 185, worked GREAT, was not able using a 6' bar, to remove em nuts, so now no problem. Point is, 3/8"air line and the small couplers, just do not provide the needed CFM to fully utilize a 3/4" impact in my mind ;D
BTDT
Quote from: lostagain on September 07, 2013, 06:54:43 PM
Luvrbus: how often does a bus nut have to tighten the nuts on all 10 wheels at once on the same day?
I have too many times seen tire shops put the nuts on with the 1" gun, then go around with the torque wrench set at 500 lbs and go click, click, and say they are torqued, when in fact they might have been tightened to 600 lbs or more, and the torque wrench for sure is going to go click, click. And when asked about it, say that they are doubled checking that they are tight enough. Sure they are: they are too tight!
I do my own, one at a time, and they are done right.
JC
YES, this is invariably what you are going to end up with regardless of whether they insist their rattle gun is set correctly and they don't let it keep rattling for ages. AND since this is what happens after you specify the correct procedure be followed AND stand there watching them, you can just imagine what happens when they are left to their own devices.
Also their other favourite trick is to slather gobs of some sort of antiseize muck all over the place regardless of whether your vehicle specs call for lubricated threads or clean dry threads. Get it wrong and the final stretch on the studs (which is what the torque does) could be out by a factor of three.
They other thing to watch is inflation pressures. I've had 4 new tyres fitted ona car and when checking, the pressures ranged from 20psi to 45 psi. Just criminal negligence really.
Quote from: lostagain on September 07, 2013, 06:54:43 PM
I have too many times seen tire shops put the nuts on with the 1" gun, then go around with the torque wrench set at 500 lbs and go click, click, and say they are torqued, when in fact they might have been tightened to 600 lbs or more, and the torque wrench for sure is going to go click, click. And when asked about it, say that they are doubled checking that they are tight enough. Sure they are: they are too tight!
This is basically the exact situation I started this thread about. They used an impact wrench and then checked the torque with a torque wrench. Who knows what torque the nuts are really at.
The air compressor I used is only 9 or 10 CFM with small tanks. I was also using 3/8" hose. I wasn't really expecting it to work. I have a big 60 gallon compressor with 5 HP motor I might actually get running some day. The issue is getting the electric line run from the panel in the basement. I also have 1/2" air hose and couplers I will use with the impact.
Quote "The air compressor I used is only 9 or 10 CFM with small tanks. I was also using 3/8" hose. I wasn't really expecting it to work. I also have 1/2" air hose and couplers I will use with the impact." Quote.
FWIW the small compressor with a 5 gallon punk tank and a 1/2" line with nice big fittings to a decent 3/4" impact will work but may require patience between nuts. I have a "T" on my air line and use the 3/4" only to break the nut free, then I use my1/2" to spin them off. All of this using a small compressor....It does take patience though waiting for the compressor to catch up, I multitask doing other stuff as the air builds.
My 3/4" impact is pretty much useless with a 3/8" line, even using a 5 gal punk tank.
I may not be the sharpest tack in the box but if I owned a tire shop I would use a torque stick then double check with a torque wrench. I have seen on my car them only using torque stick and calling it good. I can't say for the shop you went to but may do use these.
John
I don't think they used a torque stick, but I could be wrong. It just looked like a standard 1" impact with extended anvil.
Brian, all you needed to do was ask them to two stage torque the wheel. Tell them that you want the initial torque at 450ft lbs and the second one at 500.. They have to physically change the setting on the wrench. If they have a fit, take your money to another tire shop.
Just wondering how you check the left had threads for proper torque? Do you have a torque wrench that works in both directions?
I put my weight on the end of a 3 foot bar: 170lbs X 3 = 510lbs.
JC
Torque wrenches designed specifically for tire service can mount the socket on either side of the head for dealing with left hand threads. I have one that I got real cheap from an online pawn shop. I think I spent a total of $175 after having the wrench tested and calibrated.
JC's method works as good as anything,I do not understand the fear of a impact gun on wheel lugs Alcoa says it's ok
Some of you guys would faint if seen the heavy haulers tightening the lug nuts on their rigs,my McIntyre low bow had 1/16 inch larger studs than most buses the book called for 900 lbs on the stud pilot wheels same wheel just different studs
How many brake rotors have been warped on passenger vehicles by over torquing lug nuts? I want my lug nuts torqued to spec regardless if the spec is 95 ft lbs, 450-500 ft lbs, or 900 ft lbs. Over tightening can be just as bad as under tightening.
I personally have my doubts that the average tire guy with a 1" impact can tighten the lug nuts within even 50 lbs of spec.
Quote from: lostagain on September 09, 2013, 06:57:10 AM
I put my weight on the end of a 3 foot bar: 170lbs X 3 = 510lbs.
JC
I'm with you JC, torquing was being done way before torque wrenches came about. The wrenches come in handy for someone that has a multi use for one on a daily basis, but is not "needed" for those of us that have a sporadic use. A 100 Lb person can easily torque a wheel nut to 500 ft/lbs with the use of leverage!
Ed
If you are so concerned about the torque Brian loosen and torque the damn things that will give you a peace of mind
I doubt one can be in 50lbs of torque with a torque wrench you may have it on studs and nuts but with a dry torque most like to use it is not going to be the same against the wheels on no 2 lug nuts dry torquing is a hit and miss that is why it is not used on engines
I've never seen anyone use a torque wrench on semis - even with Alcoa rims. In talking with the manager of a local tire shop (major "respected" chain), he said of all the freight lines they service, only one was on a torque program. They keep a torque wrench on site for them. They have their impact wrenches calibrated once a year. He claims their techs are very accurate in torquing. Had a blow-out on my pickup in another city on vacation. Went to the same chain. I noticed them using a torque wrench on my Alcoa rims.
Also spoke with one of the owners (second generation) of a local wheel and brake shop. He also claimed their techs were accurate with impact wrenches. Verified by periodic checking with a torque wrench.
A friend who has been a heavy diesel mechanic for 35 years only uses an impact wrench. Thought I'd pass on asking him if he was accurate.
IMHO experienced tire changers and mechanics at mainstream/reputable shops are capable of torquing lugs acceptably on trucks and buses - including Alcoa rims.
That said - I'm not experienced and I'm going to use my torque wrench! The head is reversible for left-hand threads.
Good tire shops have their impact on a regulated air supply the PSI never changes so the impact gun never changes
My understanding is over torquing the nuts could stretch the studs. Loosening and tightening them again isn't going to undo any possible damage. That said I'm leaving this thread.
It would be best while you are parked to know if they did indeed stretched the studs when one is stretched it will be come a major problem to remove I am just trying to keep you from worrying so much
one can always check the nominal static stud length with a deep throated dial indicator, and recheck post torque the dynamic stretch length....adding these 60 sums and dividing for average would indicate stud life and deformation....a simpler, more visible method to analyze would be to carry a thread pitch gage to see the effect that over torque had on the threads...if any.
all of the many tire men that I have known in construction (gravel paving cement and fluids transport, including oil rig moves) have a special place they store that torque wrench.... ;D after all temperature and humidity and excess light effect them.
Well now that we've established that all tyre techs can torque any nut up to any torque they want using any rattle gun they pick up off the floor, how about we sort out whether using antiseize or other lubricants makes any difference from an engineering point of view.
* Scott raises his hand * um, can I interject a quick question here? What are the left hand threads ye all are talking about? Please don't tell
me I have those on my '84 MCI.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk. Clumsy fingers may contribute to mistakes.
Don't know if you got them on your 84, but i have them on my 68 5A. Look on the end of the studs on the wheels on the drivers side of the bus......if you see a little "L" stamped in them you have left hand threads on those. It means they turn in the opposite direction to loosen and tighten up.....ie, clockwise to loosen, counter clockwise to tighten. The passenger side will be "normal" ;D
I don't have a problem lubing the studs just don't over do it and adjust your torque setting on the gun or wrench
I've read extensively the pros and cons of lubing lug bolts and understand the potential of over-torquing lubed lugs when torquing to dry specs. Looking at charts which show torque values for both dry and lubed regular bolt threads, lubed threads take a little less torque for the same clamping value. With this in mind, I still would prefer to use a small amount of anti-seize on the threads (stud piloted Alcoa rims). What adjustment did you make to your torque settings?
I recently installed new longer studs on the front of my bus. PO did not replace them after installing the Alcoa rims. One side was lubed with anti-seize (threads only). The nuts snugged down nicely. On the other side I was in a hurry and did not lube the threads. Those nuts were probably near the torque limit before even seating against the rim. They had been carefully cleaned in the same manner as the nuts on the other side. This has convinced me that lightly lubing the threads will help insure the "correct" clamping force on the rim.
If the nuts are tight before clamp up, it has been my experience that they had been previously over tightened which resulted in some of the threads being deformed - which means new nuts are required.
If new nuts are tight before clamp up, then the studs have been stretched & it is time to replace them.
As for the required torque -
The torque is only a means of estimating the stud stretch which provides the clamping force.
The best way is to directly measure stud stretch - but since the back of the studs are usually inaccessible, that isn't a realistic method.
DRY torque is most repeatable (provided the threads are clean & not deformed) which is why it is used.
Lubricated torque is the most variable due to the differences in various lubricants.
As for never seize lubricants - which one you using? There are over a dozen to choose from & if you use a moly base, you will get lots more stud stretch for a given torque than if you used a graphite base.
My preference is clean & dry new threads.
When conditions conspire to prevent this;
I will use 3 drops of clean engine oil on the threads only - not the tapered face. Once tight, a light coat of a marine grade never seize on the exposed threads to prevent corrosion.
Bottom line is that well informed common sense will go a long way towards success. ;D
How much torque is needed to stretch a 160,000 lb tensile PSI grade 8 stud ? some are grade 9
Joel all I have to go by are the 2 tech sheets sent to me from Euclid and Rockwell both say reduce the torque by 15 to 25% for lubed studs and nuts stud piloted or hub piloted
I use 17% and type 13 anti seize wipe off the excess as I was told to do it's never been had a problem yet
Its only in the artificial world that we busnuts live in that the rattle gun / lubed thread issue even gets discussed. In a million heavy duty shops across North America its a complete non issue. I'm not saying the discussion isn't worthwhile but I travel a lot and I haven't seen any epidemic of rims flying loose on any highway anywhere.
You hit that nail square on the head Bob ::)
I agree with them.
A lot of folks get wrapped up over pissant hills.
What? You really think any of us actually have a life? ??? ??? ???
Hello i've been flamed many a time for evan mentioning neversieze. this argument never goes away..
luvrbus your spec is 17% less than what original torque value?
I like neversieze. been using it for most of my life but on this board its like the kiss of death
regards mike
I just used the 17% off the 550 lbs that was in my Eagle book Mike I paid close attention to wheels for about 5000 miles when I first used formula the torque never changed and I checked with Alcoa before I did it
Long live neversieze I have used it most all my life also the best thing since sliced bread IMO lot of people here I know used it but don't won't say anything on the board about it because of the flaming
I have a confession to make. When I first got my 160:1 torque multiplier, I tried it out on the driver's side front wheel. I forgot that they were left handed threads and was therefore massively tightening that stud rather than loosening it. I really pushed that handle quite aggressively wondering why the nut did not turn. When I realized what I was doing, I straightened things out.
My point being that although I do not know how much that stud was torqued, I would bet that it was at least what an angry 1" air impact wrench would have done in the hands of a minimally skilled tire changer. However, I can not identify which stud it was; it looks and acts just like the others on the wheel. Still, I do make every effort to get the torque about right (150 pounds hanging on a 3+ foot bar), but I really am skeptical that being a bit over will do me any harm.
Soooo, with my 400 lbs, I only need 13.56 inches?
Personally, I'd round up to 14".
Hey Doyle,
Bring it by and we'll do it with a 6" ratchet!
SORRY about stealing the thread.
This may not have anything to do with torque but what kind of oil and antifreeze should I use LOL.
Just for fun John
I would recommend new as opposed used.
Quote from: chessie4905 on September 11, 2013, 05:53:46 AM
I would recommend new as opposed used.
I was thinking new would be better. Maybe Delo 100 40 wt. Not sure if i'm sold on the expensive antifreeze yet. Bus had green stuff in it when I got it. LOL
John
Quote from: luvrbus on September 10, 2013, 10:16:01 AM
I use 17% and type 13 anti seize wipe off the excess as I was told to do it's never been had a problem yet
I've used never seize all my life & never had a problem either.
TOM
http://www.alcoa.com/alcoawheels/catalog/pdf/ServiceManual-English.pdf (http://www.alcoa.com/alcoawheels/catalog/pdf/ServiceManual-English.pdf)
Page 28 & 29 describe the proper use of oil . . . .
Happy Torquing ;D ;D ;D
Euclid says there are 4 different coating and 3 different threads for the studs and nuts the guy told me the Zinc coated where the cheapest and the worst but they sell a ton of the Zinc because of price.
The Alcoa spec for drops of oil on the first 2 or 3 threads has been around for a long time the problem is they don't make studs and nuts no telling where that came from, it does take away the aspect of using no oil that has been a argument here for years and also about using a impact gun
There are nuts for Aluminum wheels and steel wheels the wrong nut kills a wheel where it is aluminum or steel I used the neversieze to keep from peeling the aluminum on the wheel sockets it worked good for me over the years
Well, I guess I've been doing it all wrong my whole life. What else is new. Oiled threads and 1" impact for over 35 years. Never a problem.
*** I only need 13.56 inches ***
Braggart ;D
All this talk on torque and I was getting ready to put my wheels back on.
So I made myself a little torque multiplier for about $10.00.
Worked great using my 200lb torque wrench to get 600lbs of torque.
Is it possible I saved money today.......Maybe!
Cliff
Nice job! Yes, that is a legit way to multiply the measurement of a torque wrench!
Brian
Yo Cliff, Uddaman!
TexasBorderDude,
How do you get your 400 pounds balanced on the end of that 13.56" wrench? LOL Maybe a picture would explain it! LOL
Quote from: Sam 4106 on September 14, 2013, 01:08:36 PM
TexasBorderDude,
How do you get your 400 pounds balanced on the end of that 13.56" wrench? LOL Maybe a picture would explain it! LOL
Ah yes... all those years of practice doing one armed push-ups on the pommel horse leading up to the 1968 Olympics in Mexico City or was it Tujuana?
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.helpusanetwork.com%2Fimages%2Fhosting%2FScreenShot110.jpg&hash=115e782d172382316cf4e0cf0bd740fa8740b269)
Why not use the big air wrench with either a torque stick or torque extension? One of many places that carry them:
http://www.torquestick.com/cart/home.php?cat=1&sort=orderby&sort_direction=0&page=2 (http://www.torquestick.com/cart/home.php?cat=1&sort=orderby&sort_direction=0&page=2)
Quote from: Sam 4106 on September 14, 2013, 01:08:36 PM
TexasBorderDude,
How do you get your 400 pounds balanced on the end of that 13.56" wrench? LOL Maybe a picture would explain it! LOL
All he has to do is push down on the bar till it brings him up on his toes, NO BOUNCING.
Ed