Our radiator is off at the shop now, and they've just gotten back to us with a quote for re-coring our stock old and beat up 5-core radiator with a new 6-core setup.
I know several people with GM 4106's have mentioned having 7-core radiators (BarnOwl, for one). The shop here is afraid this might not fit in the space available.
Are there any guidelines or tips I can give them for how to do this optimally for us? Are there any potential fit issues that we will need to work around?
What is the ideal radiator configuration for a GM 4106?
Cheers,
- Chris
My 06 had the seven core option and it fits with no mods.>>>Dan
Quote from: Utahclaimjumper on June 26, 2013, 12:26:04 PM
My 06 had the seven core option and it fits with no mods.>>>Dan
Was a seven core radiator an original factory option for the 4106, or is this an upgrade done later?
Quote from: technomadia on June 26, 2013, 12:47:12 PM
Was a seven core radiator an original factory option for the 4106, or is this an upgrade done later?
Upgrade done later. I don't think 7 core radiators were ever fitted from the factory.
You must remember that todays radiators are much more efficient than yesteryear, so probably don't need that many cores.>>>Dan (They are also more delicate and won't tolerate abuse)
For those with seven core radiators, in what ways are the physical dimensions larger than the five core?
- Chris
The part between the tanks where the fins are will be about an inch thicker on the seven relative to the five.
Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2
Serpentine fins and dimpled tubes.
My 4106 got a 7 row core from Macs radiator in Salem, OR about a month ago. They have bunches of locations in the PNW.
New core bolts to existing upper and lower "tanks" and has identical exterior dimensions. I overhauled my vernatherm and built a brand now shroud using aluminum and simple hand tools. I was planning to post some DIY threads on these topics but have been procrastinating
I'm assuming the radiator core i removed was factory. It had 4 thick rows clearly visible when the upper and lower "tanks" were removed.
Quote from: Uglydog56 on June 26, 2013, 03:59:10 PM
The part between the tanks where the fins are will be about an inch thicker on the seven relative to the five.
Quote from: NonHippieBus on June 26, 2013, 07:54:52 PM
My 4106 got a 7 row core from Macs radiator in Salem, OR about a month ago. ....
New core bolts to existing upper and lower "tanks" and has identical exterior dimensions.
I'm confused... Is it "identical exterior dimensions" or "about an inch thicker" or does this just vary by the radiator shop that does the work?
- Chris
Mine is identical external dimensions, more rows in the core. No exterior dimensional change including core thickness
The tanks set the exterior dimensions. If you look, the finned part is narrower than the tanks. A 7 core is 1 inch less narrower (please pardon my horrible grammar) in the finned part than the 5 core. The thickness of the tanks (depth?) dictates how many cores will fit.
Also another option is a staggered tube setup for more cooling. Since I'm spending your money and not mine.
Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2
Chris -
As has been mentioned, the 7 row core will fit using your existing top and bottom tanks. Number of fins/inch and the dimples improves the heat transfer.
Make sure the torus drive works properly. . . Several may disagree and recommend a straight drive, but if the torus is healthy?
Some folk have replaced the fan with a similar diameter but more blades. . .
Make sure the fan shroud does it's job - no places around it for air to escape. The fan should suck all the air thru the radiator, nothing from around it. There have been posts by GM and MCI owners about gaps causing problems. . .
Also, since you tend to stay in warmer climates, freezing is less of an issue. Therefore, you might consider using a 60/40 or 70/30 water/coolant mix ratio to improve hot weather cooling. As you probably know, straight water cools the best, but rust becomes an issue quickly! So you've got to maintain some ratio of coolant to reduce the crud factor.
Just some more trivia for you to ponder!
FWIW & HTH. . .
;)
Even though some don't like them, a good mister system has benefits when you could use some more cooling on a hot day on a long climb. They can be installed at minimal cost after you get your coach back on the road. There are many posts here to help fabricate one with locally available parts.
Besides the misters, what really cooled the radiator was making sure hot air did not recirculate back into the radiator. I sealed everything off with Gorilla Tape-like really strong duct tape. Usually have to redo it every year. Good Luck, TomC
I installed a 6 row rad in my 06 with e 6V92 and a Teal o-drive. It did not change the temp it run at all so I installed a 10 blade fan with a good shrould and that worked for me. I had just replaced my core before changing engines. It was a stock 4 row core. So the more core rad did not help me at all. Good luck olebusman
Quote from: olebusman on June 30, 2013, 05:58:45 AM
I installed a 6 row rad in my 06 with e 6V92 and a Teal o-drive. It did not change the temp it run at all so I installed a 10 blade fan with a good shrould and that worked for me.
Where did you get a 10 blade fan / shroud? I have not seen one of these on a 4106 before.
Cheers,
- Chris
My bus has a seven core with an eight blade fan. You are limited to the depth of the radiator by the tanks, but you can increase the length by a few inches. The PO did that with mine, probably added three or four inches, and made some strange lower radiator screen mount modifications that looks terrible, but has worked. Nothing to base it on, but I cannot see how a slightly taller radiator would be worth the trouble, but the PO of my bus got talked into it. My father's bus has a non-stock fan. I have never counted the blades but it is more than eight I am sure. In addition to the larger radiator, installing a Hayden 1290 or 1260 in-series with the oil water cooler to your transmission, will give you one of the best cooking returns on your dollar.
If you experience high engine temps and you have the original, functional bus heat, you can open your bus windows and turn it on. Not very comfortable, but better than a trashed power plant. Does anyone know how large the heater core is compared to the radiator? Must be big to heat that much space.
Chris I re cored my 4106 with stock dimension core with seven tubes staggered & wrinkled. Thermostats are 160* left
from probs before re core. Also 8 blade fan without fluid coupling. On a normal day temp gauge barely comes off pin.
Have to partially cover rad to get heat and defrost in cool weather. Pulling up arches national monument towing a full
size chevy Impala, did get to 175 on it's own. Been just great not to have to think about it heating up. 06 Bill
My fan came from Superior Turbo & Injection in Detroit( 313-842-4616), not connected just good service. The shroud I made from the 1982 flex my engine came from. Get lots of pitch in the fan as you can't hear it anyway. Shroud is fiberglass and several cuts and glassing later it fits like a glove. olebusman
I have a direct drive for a GM to replace the torus set up but I don't have the rubber block or the clutch
Quote from: 06 Bill on June 30, 2013, 09:54:03 AM
On a normal day temp gauge barely comes off pin.
Have to partially cover rad to get heat and defrost in cool weather.
Sounds like you have done a great job with heat removal... But - isn't over-cooling the engine (and transmission) also a potential problem as well? I've been warned that rigging the radiator fan to always run at full speed can actually end up doing more harm than good.
Thoughts?
- Chris
May be running cool but has done so for well over 100k miles. Runs the same now as it always did. 06 Bill
I am not discounting your running cool Bill, but...
An engine, gas or diesel, is designed to run most efficiently at a certain temperature, and working an engine hard while things are cool can make things go bad, quickly, or slowly with a quick finish. If things don't warm up and swell, then things don't fit quite right.
Couldn't tell you a thing about the transmission side.
Now, I shall go hide again.
Quote from: Barn Owl on June 30, 2013, 09:37:37 AM
If you experience high engine temps and you have the original, functional bus heat, you can open your bus windows and turn it on. Not very comfortable, but better than a trashed power plant. Does anyone know how large the heater core is compared to the radiator? Must be big to heat that much space.
My 4104 has a 28"x26"x 3" OTR heater core. Actually I couldn't find a replacement for the OEM core for less than $500, so I used 2 Thomas school bus heater cores to replace the trashed OEM core. That's the size of the fan opening. Although I haven't completed this yet, I'm fabricating a "dump door" on the bottom of the driver's side heating duct. If needed I can close the interior ducts and open the "dump door", turn the heater on high and effectively add an additional radiator that's almost the size of the engine radiator (not as many rows, but close in sq. in.).
Barn Owl gives an important piece of info - in an emergency, say your climbing a grade where it is almost impossible to turn out and your coolant is about overtemp, engage your heat and it will dump tremendous amounts of heat into the cabin and save your mill, a cold beverage and the knowledge that you saved $$$$$$$$$ not cooking your engine is worth the temporary inconvenience - HTH
In my estimation as a 30 yr Mercedes Benz tech. 10 - 20* of temp difference is a non issue. To me it is also
less of an issue in the middle of a normal heat range 160 - 180. A very few degree difference is a big issue
if you are near your boiling point depending on what pressure you are running. At any rate I am not going to
change anything, been to good to long. I try and not over fix at 76 like I did when I was 26. 06 Bill
I have opened the windows and turned on the heat several times over the years when the temp gauge has started climbing over 180 degrees.....in fact did it just a week ago when climbing westbound over McDonald pass in Montana.
Quote from: niles500 on June 30, 2013, 10:27:19 PM
Barn Owl gives an important piece of info - in an emergency, say your climbing a grade where it is almost impossible to turn out and your coolant is about overtemp, engage your heat and it will dump tremendous amounts of heat into the cabin and save your mill, a cold beverage and the knowledge that you saved $$$$$$$$$ not cooking your engine is worth the temporary inconvenience - HTH
So true - and we had done this when going up inclines in very hot weather as a preventative measure previously.
But it's something that needed to be far more instinctual to us when we encountered whatever happened 2 weeks ago. You have only seconds to act - and it's a lot to think about when trying to orchestrate a quick safe stop on the side of the road.
So yes, keep repeating it! This is one thing that might have prevented some damage in our case when Chris started to notice the temp creep up.
- Cherie
Quote from: Gordie Allen on June 30, 2013, 06:50:18 PM
I'm fabricating a "dump door" on the bottom of the driver's side heating duct. If needed I can close the interior ducts and open the "dump door", turn the heater on high and effectively add an additional radiator that's almost the size of the engine radiator (not as many rows, but close in sq. in.)
Gordie -I like this idea! Can you share some pics of the project? How are you planning on controlling this?
FWIW. . .
;)
Quote from: RJ on July 01, 2013, 11:47:37 AM
Gordie -
I like this idea! Can you share some pics of the project? How are you planning on controlling this?
FWIW. . .
;)
I second that. I'm interested to see the finished (and in the works) project as well.
QuoteI'm fabricating a "dump door" on the bottom of the driver's side heating duct. If needed I can close the interior ducts and open the "dump door", turn the heater on high and effectively add an additional radiator that's almost the size of the engine radiator (not as many rows, but close in sq. in.)
Gordie -
I like this idea! Can you share some pics of the project? How are you planning on controlling this?
Count me in! Great idea.
It is hard to guess what the final autopsy will reveal, if anything. A couple of things happened apparently; failure of the air filter and loss of coolant. I don't know if we will ever get to know cause and effect or just coincidence.
At any rate, I think on these older buses which were not originally equipped, a low coolant sensor would be the first thing I would add. That might have saved you.
Quote from: Len Silva on July 02, 2013, 08:59:30 AM
At any rate, I think on these older buses which were not originally equipped, a low coolant sensor would be the first thing I would add. That might have saved you.
The low coolant sensor alerts based on coolant level in the surge tank reservoir, right?
I think this is probably a good thing to add, but in our case there was still plenty of coolant in the surge tank even after we ended up on the side of the road and we were watching it boil out the overflow and onto the ground.
Is there a way a sensor might have alerted us any sooner than the temperature gauge did?
- Chris
Is there a way a sensor might have SAVED alerted us any sooner than the temperature gauge did ?
Yup...an automatic over temp shutdown with a pre shutdown warning light....
I have piloted Detroits and myriad manifestations of diesel motive haulers...I would not drive MY coach (8v71N) in any part of the LOWER 48 states during daylight without an over temp shut down system.
Someone who has done this for the better part of their lives...or repaired the damage caused by neophytes would know that it is impossible to react before implosion in this scenario.
Me I would rather suffer an Emergency over temp shut down on I-45
at 4:38 pm....than...well you know...
So yes you NEED more sending units and murphy switches or air operated solenoids or something more than whatcha got...
as in if I do...you do.
PS when I get a pre-over temp light...if I am not already in the right hand lane...it is shut down time here and now and not a muscle twitch later. :-\
Chris, my 79 Prevost, with a 6V92, shuts down right now when the hot indicator comes on, no chance for human reaction time failures, want to be close to,the side ofmthe road when it happens. Oh make sure you take out the cardboard from in front of the radiator:)
Chuckd
79 Prevost
Our 4106 has the hot engine warning light, and a few seconds later it triggers a shutdown.
This worked, and happened in our case. By the time I was off onto the shoulder, the engine had already shut itself down.
- Chris
Possibly of interest... I've been Googling "digital engine temperature alarms" and have found a couple of good candidates. In the ones I've found, a read-out mounts on the dash and a thermocouple bolts to your choice of spot on the engine. Kinda like a CHT (Cylinder Head Temperature) gauge on an airplane.
The prices I'm finding range from $50 up. A digital gauge provides a more fine level of detail for me, and the set-point of the alarm can be placed to go off a little before things get out-of-hand with shut-offs and such (theoretically). Of course when things happen as quickly as they did with Chris and Cherie all bets might be off, but it's an interesting option.
In your case, it was a catastrophic failure of some kind. Whether it was the air filter or the engine that failed first, we may never know for sure. I'm not sure that any protection system might have "saved" you.
Still, I would add a low coolant sensor to my quiver.
I'm not that sure about having an automatic shutdown when you are the exclusive driver of the bus. I think I would prefer a loud, urgent alarm up front and let the driver decide what to do. I can imagine a scenario where I might sacrifice an engine to move a few hundred feet (on a two lane mountain curve for example).
Quoteit was a catastrophic failure of some kind.
I would agree with this even though we don't know for sure what it was. Probably little could have been done to have salvaged the situation by the time it was realized. Seems like all of the potentially different reaction scenarios would have still given them the same outcome. Play in the sun long enough and eventually you will get rained on, if one doesn't ever want a breakdown, then never go anywhere. Unfortunately, It will be someone Else's turn here all to quickly, I just hope not mine, not yet.
One very simple thing I recently did was to move my all-important temperature gauge so it's now front and center, sitting between the speedo and tach. It was previously way off to the left, making it difficult to accurately read exactly what the needle was doing. Now I'll be fixating it on it like I've got some interesting syndrome or something.
And in the space where it used to be I've now got a turbo boost gauge to give me one more thing to worry about!
John