We're trying to figure out what it is exactly that we need to operate a bus/rv in Kansas.
While there's a lot of data on Kansas' many, disparate, and disconnected websites; none directly answer the question, "What do I need to operate a vehicle over 26k lbs, non-commercially".
Oh yeah, and calling the KS department of revenue (who manages licenses in KS) and the local KS DMV offices was an exercise in pointless futility.
The answer we've gotten so far is yes we'll need a different license but no one knows what that is, what the requirements are to get it, whether there's a driving test involved, and if so what book to study from for said test....
As always, any help or advice is appreciated.
Thanks
George
Here's a subject that you may do well to use the search function to sift thru...here and over at BNO.
Once you use the word commercial, excommercial bus or any derivation there of you are scr%wd, and complicate your situation beyond belief, the term is futile to say the least in your quest, a bus is no longer a bus....it is a motorhome.
UNLESS you are contemplating or referring to a a seated coach.....
then you will stuggle for answer to the point of insanity.... ;D
According to this site you need a non-commercial CD if the coach is over 26,000.
http://changingears.com/rv-sec-state-rv-license.shtml (http://changingears.com/rv-sec-state-rv-license.shtml)
My advise is to go to the local DMV in person. Ask the question, and take a copy of it typed out on paper with your letterhead with you, like it was a letter to them. Ask them to note their answer on the paper and sign and date it, referencing the legal reference. If they don't, ask for a supervisor who can. Don't leave until you have an answer. If nobody can or will answer locally, ask them who can and get that person's contact info.
If you get no response, contact your state congressman or assemblyman. The DMV seems to answer them with the correct answer.
I live in PA and had to go to the head of Driver Licensing for the Commonwealth of PA to get an answer!
Steve Toomey
PAbusnut
It is already converted don't ever use the word "bus", always say "motorhome" and your problems will evaporate.
I know of no state that has any extra license requirements for a motorhome no matter what the size if it is not used for commercial purposes.
Several states require a different license for a motor home over 26,001 lbs or 40ft in length they are all listed on the FMCA site
From our research so far, about one third of US states have some kind of special requirement for a vehicle over 26k lbs (commercial or not). There is also a federal standard, but it's intended primarily for CDL drivers. They defer non-CDL stuff to each respective state but mandate a base minimum to each state for CDL.
I do know that Kansas has this requirement. They call it a non-commercial class B. We managed to rune that bit out of the random bits of info we've gathered so far. The challenge is in figuring out what's needed to get one of those.
On one extreme (from one KS official) is that we need to take a full CDL test :o. On another extreme (from yet another KS official) is taking the exact same driving test and book material we have already taken (huh??) ???
I suspect that most people just ignore it or don't look into it and just assume their handy driver's license, already in their pocket, is all they need. :D
Which based on the PITA KS is turning this into, it is sounding more and more like what we should just do. ::)
Geom,, What bus are you going to use?? most GMC 4106s or 04s come in at close to 24K full up & ready to go. The MCIs are a bit heavyer depending on content, anything with a tag axle will be even more.>>>Dan
Two questions that may or may not complicate things!
A) Is your state's weight factor the actual weighable weight or GVWR?
B) What is your bus, oops Motorhome, now registered as?
Why I ask is that in CA it's only GVWR that matters, not the actual weight. My bus is still registered as an "Auto (Bus Body)" by the CA DMV - they wont give me the magic "Housecar" title until it's got enough things done to it to make it no longer a vehicle that could potentially be put back into bus service. They won't even consider retitling it until it's no longer NSBY! Therein lies the crux of the matter - a Housecar of any GVWR can be driven on a regular Class C license as long as it's not over 40 feet, but my bus is technically not yet a Housecar, and as such if it exceeds 26,000 GVWR it needs a non-commercial Class B license. A Class C is generally for vehicles less than 26K, unless they're Housecars.
Is KS similar to CA in this regard?
One hint - try going to small rural DMV offices a few minutes before they close on a Friday afternoon. The staff there will sometimes slide things through that they wouldn't ordinarilly do, especially if they are going home in the next few minutes. When I bought my bus the Pink Slip was missing a signature from the school district that previously owned it, so the DMV girl told us to "make a call outside to the school district" to sort it out. We came back in a moment later with a signature on the Pink Slip, she was happy, and a minute later I had new plates in my hand. Ten minutes max in and out of there - easy!
John
@John @Dan,
Alas in KS it is based on gvwr :(
The buses we're looking at are the GM 410X. All of which have a gvwr higher than the limit.
The good news is that all of the ones we're considering have already been retitled as motorhomes.
We did note that nice little exception in CA for motorhomes under 40', but near as we can tell no such nicety exists in KS.
I do like your idea of going to a smaller DMV outside of town. KS, as is probably evident by now, makes the whole process a PITA. There are a total of 2, yes count them 2, DMV offices covering the entire KS side of Kansas City (a not exactly small metro area). In addition they're having ongoing problems with a botched computer upgrade, and wait times are over 2 hours on average, in person.
So finding that elusive small DMV office might be challenging, but might be worth it.
@Steve, I like your idea of getting everything down in writing and/or asking for a supervisor if the person at the counter has no clue.
Ha!! Kansas DMV got their computer program from the same place California got theirs I will bet. It doesn't work here either.
Don and Cary
Quote from: Cary and Don on June 26, 2013, 05:42:26 PM
Ha!! Kansas DMV got their computer program from the same place California got theirs I will bet. It doesn't work here either.
Don and Cary
Lol, yeah... And they were quite proud of it too, to the tune of $50+mil and still counting!
Then it started running like crap and causing multi-hour delays. The present 2 hour delay is actually their idea of improvement, after several months of all day (or don't bother showing up) type delays ;D
Geom -
Now to really drive you crazy:
GM never published any GVWR for their parlor coaches until the NTSB insisted starting about 1976.
So when you meander into a KS DMV and they ask about GVWR, tell them it's an antique that was built before GVWRs were required by law, therefore published data does not exist. Then ask the technician to call over a supervisor to figure this out - keep going up the chain of command until you've driven them crazy or they become so exasperated they just call it a motorhome and are done with it!
And for heaven's sake, NEVER, EVER mention the word "bus!" It's an "Antique Class A Diesel Pusher Motorhome" built in 195X/196X.
Most states allow the operation of RVs with a standard Class C license, but some require a non-commercial Class B for those rigs over 26,001 lbs. If your state requires this, then you'll have to take the CDL written exam (including air brakes), most likely also have the basic CDL medical exam, and more than likely a behind-the-wheel drive test, including a pre-trip inspection (including an air brake check - which you should know how to do anyway!)
So run the coach over a set of truck scales as empty as possible to get a weight slip before you attempt to register/drive it. (Added bonus: with the weight info, you can properly set the air pressure in the tires for the weight being carried!)
Or move to a more RV-friendly state, such as SD!
FWIW & HTH. . .
;)
People keep bringing up going to a rural DMV or to the DMV at the end of a day. That may work very well for getting a bus registered or titled, but it won't help much if the state requires a special driver license to operate an RV over 26,000 lbs. If you are stopped by an officer he could very well ticket you for the wrong driver license. If the officer really wants to make your day go bad they could require a driver with the right license come to the site to drive the vehicle away.
I know in Minnesota a lot of the "DMV" offices are run by others besides the states. One needs to be sure the DMV office has actual state employees if you want to get an official answer on something like this. I remember having to make a few phone calls to figure out if I could legally drive my motorhome (my bus) on a freeway marked as no trucks over 9,000 lbs. I was told since my motorhome is not legally a truck that I could drive on that freeway.
http://www.kslegislature.org/li/b2013_14/statute/008_000_0000_chapter/008_002_0000_article/008_002_0034b_section/008_002_0034b_k/ (http://www.kslegislature.org/li/b2013_14/statute/008_000_0000_chapter/008_002_0000_article/008_002_0034b_section/008_002_0034b_k/)
(4) class A motor vehicles include any combination of vehicles with a gross combination weight rating of 26,001 pounds or more, provided the gross combination weight rating of the vehicle or vehicles being towed is in excess of 10,000 pounds, and all other lawful combinations of vehicles with a gross combination weight rating of 26,001 pounds, or more; except that, class A does not include a combination of vehicles that has a truck registered as a farm truck under K.S.A. 8-143, and amendments thereto;
(5) class B motor vehicles include any single vehicle with a gross vehicle weight rating of 26,001 pounds or more, or any such vehicle towing a vehicle not in excess of 10,000 pounds gross vehicle weight rating. Class B motor vehicles do not include a single vehicle registered as a farm truck under K.S.A. 8-143, and amendments thereto, when such farm truck has a gross vehicle weight rating of 26,001 pounds, or more; or any fire truck operated by a volunteer fire department;
(6) class C motor vehicles include any single vehicle with a gross vehicle weight rating less than 26,001 pounds, or any such vehicle towing a vehicle not in excess of 10,000 pounds gross vehicle weight rating, or any vehicle with a less than 26,001 gross vehicle weight rating towing a vehicle in excess of 10,000 pounds gross vehicle weight rating, provided the gross combination weight rating of the combination is less than 26,001 pounds, or any single vehicle registered as a farm truck under K.S.A. 8-143, and amendments thereto, when such farm truck has a gross vehicle weight rating of 26,001 pounds, or more, or any fire truck operated by a volunteer fire department; and
The Kansas dept of motor vehicles CDL FAQ page includes this direct answer to your first question:
"My parents are thinking about getting one of those huge RVs for travel. Will either of them need a CDL? What if they want to share the driving? They are both very capable drivers.
It varies according to the weight of the vehicle. If the RV weighs enough to be considered a commercial motor vehicle, your parents will need CDLs (refer to the first question/answer on this page for weights). Otherwise, they may drive the RV with their regular driver's licenses."
That means that if your vehicle is over 26K lbs, RV registered or not, you need a Class B CDL. Kansas has no "non-commercial" Class B license.
The answer to your second question is in here somewhere: http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CCwQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ksrevenue.org%2Fpdf%2Fcdlhb.pdf&ei=CFrMUbZRpujRAbLcgIAJ&usg=AFQjCNHzy09RlSVN_U0C2cB_b7c3YOHHRg&bvm=bv.48340889,d.dmQ
Basically you need to get tested, road test and written test, for CDL driving including air brakes. Kansas doesn't have an air brake endorsement but if you don't get tested for air brakes your license is issued with an air brakes restriction, meaning you aren't allowed to drive a vehicle with air brakes. The best thing to do is to call a commercial driver's school and ask them what the test requires. You will probably be best served by either moving to a different state or taking a commercial driving school course, which includes them setting up or possibly actually administering the tests you need to take.
Edit: two other thoughts came to mind. First, where I live anyone who just walks in for a CDL (our equivalent) test fails the first time, and maybe the second time. If you don't have a school behind you, you are tested with a different scoring toughness. That is one reason I took my air-brake school and they actually did the testing. Second - school bus drivers have the license you need, maybe without the air brake qualification. If you hire on as a school bus driver they often train you and arrange for the testing. I don't know if you actually need to stick around to drive the bus or if you can just quit after. Just a thought, I got my upgraded license those many years ago because I drove a school bus while in college.
Edit 2: The written test will include all of the rules of the road related to driving a commercial vehicle, all of the mandatory daily inspection log report rules, weight rules, hours of operation rules, drivers log book rules, and all of the air brake testing and operation rules. The road test will include driving the vehicle observing all of the rules of the road, parking, backing up to a loading door, and will include doing a daily inspection of the vehicle including the air brakes. If you show up in a bus you may have to describe how to test the brake chamber pushrod extension but you probably won't be asked to perform that test. You'll have to do the compressor recovery test, bleed down, low air alarms, auto-set of the parking brake etc. A lot of the test probably presumes modern spring brake systems so will be different to what you may have on your bus. The problem with a CDL test is that it's designed to license someone to drive any modern current vehicle, so you have to know all of those systems. When I re-write my air-brake license every five years I have to go to school on tractor protection valves, how dual tank systems work, etc, since I never use that knowledge on my bus.
Brian
Quote from: bevans6 on June 27, 2013, 04:11:36 AM
The answer to your second question is in here somewhere: www.ksrevenue.org/pdf/cdlhb.pdf[/url (http://www.ksrevenue.org/pdf/cdlhb.pdf)
Brian -Dead link. . . :-\
George -You might need this:
http://busnut.com/forum/index.php?action=articles;sa=view;article=40 (http://busnut.com/forum/index.php?action=articles;sa=view;article=40)
FWIW & HTH. . .
;)
I you remove the extra characters from the end of Brian's link it works fine.
I couldn't make the direct link work at all so I changed it to the google link. If you google "Kansas CDL Manual" it's the first thing that comes up. Pretty aggressive that they require a full tilt CDL for driving an RV over 26K, not that I think it's bad, just more than most states require. Up here in Ontario and Nova Scotia we don't have CDL's but we require anyone driving over around that weight (actually a little less) to have the same full license as any professional driver, complete with medicals and air brake endorsements. (no medical in Ontario). The only break you get in Ontario is a restricted Class A for people who tow RV trailers over 10K lbs.
License requirements are indeed a cloudy subject to start to get in to...
Brian
Brian
Maybe the place to start would be to see what it will take to get that weight on your registration. If they will accept a weight ticket from the scales this may become a mute question. If most of the 41xx are weighing in between 26K and 28K fully loaded, I will bet that they would come in under 26K empty. I think our 4107 was around 28K with full tanks and loaded with ALL our stuff.
Don and Cary
The weight on the registration is immaterial, actually. You can have just about anything there, but if it's wrong you bear the responsibility not the DOT that issued it. It's the actual weight on the day that counts, on the scales, and in most cases the weight is "vehicle or combination of vehicles" so anything in tow like a car or trailer is added in to the bus weight. Up here anything over 6600 lbs has to stop at weigh scales, not just commercial but any and everything, and yeah the police sometimes camp out there and do random inspections.
Brian
Quote from: bevans6 on June 27, 2013, 08:42:22 AM
The weight on the registration is immaterial, actually. You can have just about anything there, but if it's wrong you bear the responsibility not the DOT that issued it. It's the actual weight on the day that counts, on the scales, and in most cases the weight is "vehicle or combination of vehicles" so anything in tow like a car or trailer is added in to the bus weight. Up here anything over 6600 lbs has to stop at weigh scales, not just commercial but any and everything, and yeah the police sometimes camp out there and do random inspections.
How many miles long are the lines at scales in Canada if any vehicle over 6,600 lbs has to stop? Heck, a dually pickup with a driver probably weighs over 6,600 lbs empty.
Well, the one scale that I pass semi-regularly that has that requirement is the one on Highway 102 at the border to New Brunswick. I have never seen more than two trucks there. Sometimes they have the lights on and everything has to go in, sometimes they just turn the lights on when they want to issue a special invite. Lots of the scales have big signs that they can light up that tells the truck to come in, or to bypass, they seem to be triggered by a camera and weight switch setup in the road bed. Same deal in New Brunswick, I've been called in when I had a trailer behind my truck, and when I was in the bus once. They have cameras, so they know who skips out and you get a ticket in the mail. Also, it's registered weight, not actual. Half ton pickups are usually registered for over the limit. I talked to one local guy just yesterday, he said he had never stopped once in 30 years, never got nothing, but a buddy of his ran past the lit up sign on the weekend, got chased down and the ticket was $800. No idea what else he did wrong, but everything (truck, trailer, axles, tires) was overweight. He'd been running like that for years. He was towing a typical 24' car hauler with the cheapo 3500 lb axles and he had about a ton more than it could carry in it. His truck was registered for about a ton less it was carrying too.
Brian
North Carolina has an exemption for motor home, but they use the ambiguous word "might" for motor homes over 26,000. But the interesting change they have made is not all commercial or noncommercial CDL's require a medical. You will have to read the rules to be sure, but a motor home driver CDL does not require a medical.
Art