BCM Community

Today was a long day in the shop dropping the motor out of Zephyr - a fascinating learning experience.

Along the way, we discovered a potential cause of our woes - the engine had managed to inhale part of the air filter!?!?!

Was this the initial failure, or the result of the engine starting to run away from some other cause, or something else entirely?

Is the filter getting sucked partially into the engine air intake a result of the overall failure, or the cause of it?

The filter is a Baldwin PA2721, installed last August.  We've gone just 4,062 miles since that filter change - and none of them particularly dusty.

The filter minder has been reading in the green, but ever since this filter was installed it was already closer to the red than the older Wix 46891 filter we had replaced. I was just assuming that the Baldwin filter naturally had worse airflow, and had planned to skip that brand next time. But I hadn't worried about it - the Filter Minder was had barely gotten any worse than it was when we first installed the filter last August.

That prior Wix filter we had logged 10k miles on over the course of one year.

The filter that was on the bus when we bought it was a Farr EcoLite C-62891-1 U - we have no idea how long that filter had been in use. We changed it soon after buying the bus.

Theoretically, all three of these should be interchangeable.

Anyway - there is a picture of the filter attached.

Any ideas??  Has anyone seen anything like this before?

We'll get a deeper look into the engine over the next few days, tracking down the collateral damage.

For all of you who have shared your wisdom and experience here and over the phone, thank you. 

Cheers,

   - Chris

Chris,

That is really something. How big is your air filter? Ours is like 18" in diameter and really big. If that got inhaled that would do some serious damage.

I am watching your saga with interest. So far, I have been very impressed with how coolly you have taken things in stride. I remember warning you all at the beginning about these kind of expenses. Sure enough, blew the engine. However, the brilliant part is that you made sure you had plenty to cover repairs. Totally awesome. You all are poster kids for bus ownership. Kudos.

Can you catch us up on what your latest plans are? Obviously the shop is dropping the engine. Diagnostics, or are they rebuilding? I can't go to bed until I know ;D

Cheers,

John

Yep I changed Georges filter on his 01 Eagle it had suck into the air horn always buy the ECO,Wix,Donaldson or Parker in that type filter best you can buy,on your bus I would move the filter to a location on the passengers side plenty of room there yours in not in a good place fwiw  

I never trust a filter minder and have preached that for years here but people swear by the junk  

good luck  

Quote from: John316 on June 21, 2013, 06:18:03 PM

That is really something. How big is your air filter? Ours is like 18" in diameter and really big. If that got inhaled that would do some serious damage.

Here are the dimensions for the product: O.D.: 9 25/32 (248.4) Inlet: 6 Outlet: 6 Length: 25 7/8 (657.2)

Quote
Can you catch us up on what your latest plans are? Obviously the shop is dropping the engine. Diagnostics, or are they rebuilding? I can't go to bed until I know ;D

They're going to have a good look over first and if a rebuild still seems like a reasonable thing, then rebuild.  We'll adjust the plan as needed.  We are prepared for the worst case scenario.

Thank you for the kudos :) We're trying our best to balance all the wisdom, opinions and our own goals.

- Cherie

Wow!
What a mess no wonder it was emitting lots of black smoke and no power.
My Buffalo came with a Farr single stage Pamic air filter as a option from GMC Truck and Coach and it's listed in the Final Vehicle record for the bus.
My bus filter is in the shape of a large box so far no problem in 15 years that I have owned the bus.
I still like the old oil bath air cleaners that were standard on the GMC Coaches.
Let us know what other damage this filter failure has caused.
jlv

Quote from: luvrbus on June 21, 2013, 06:20:49 PM
always buy the ECO,Wix,Donaldson or Parker in that type filter best you can buy,on your bus I would move the filter to a location on the passengers side plenty of room there yours in not in a good place fwiw

Thanks.. and noted. Choo Choo sourced and installed the Baldwin. We had previously procured the Wix on our own, and will insist on these recommended brands in the future.

- Cherie

Quote from: luvrbus on June 21, 2013, 06:20:49 PM
on your bus I would move the filter to a location on the passengers side plenty of room there yours in not in a good place fwiw

Where are you thinking?  Our canister filter currently sits directly above the engine on the passenger side, extending out to the air inlet box on the passenger side.

I am hoping to take this opportunity to find a better style of filter / mounting location.  The way the original converter had installed it, it was incredibly difficult to change. We'd love to work out something better and easier.

Quote from: luvrbus on June 21, 2013, 06:20:49 PM
I never trust a filter minder and have preached that for years here but people swear by the junk    

Do you have a better recommendation?  What is the best way to monitor air filter health?

Cheers,

   - Chris

something to be said for oil bath air filters

Make brackets and install it close to door by the transmission,those filters can be used with out the intake system that the old GM oil bath had like your buy a 1100 cfm flow and the old 8v71 will love you for it 950 cfm is just not enough air for those engines  to monitor just watch the exhaust for black smoke or change  it once a year

Depending on how far they are in pulling the motor have you guys considered starting the motor now to see if that's why it's running so rich? It's obvious it would not have been getting sufficient air for clean combustion through all that mess. You probably can't hurt it more than it already is. Those tips on the injectors sound more and more plausible when you consider all that cardboard sucked into the cylinders. It may be seriously damaged but I have seen these motors appear to be on their last legs and a good mechanic runs the rack or changes a couple injectors and vrroooom.

Just a thought...

Rick

Cause, not effect.

Possibly THE problem

That would explain the no power and black smoke 

My new motor would take a serious look at this....more than you thought you would ever need to know.....
paying first attention to Clifford's CFM requirement...(1200 Min flo IIRC) then studying starting on page 11....
PAGE 158 contains the CFM references that Donaldson uses.
http://india.donaldson.com/en/engine/support/datalibrary/061238.pdf (http://india.donaldson.com/en/engine/support/datalibrary/061238.pdf)

then for further enlightenment :PARKER/RACOR/FARR are all the same company now (it appears)..all are excellent choices...imo..
http://www.parker.com/literature/Racor%20Europe/fdrb263uk.pdf (http://www.parker.com/literature/Racor%20Europe/fdrb263uk.pdf)

http://www.parker.com/literature/Racor/7654_Rev_A_(BUL_ECO_II).pdf (http://www.parker.com/literature/Racor/7654_Rev_A_(BUL_ECO_II).pdf)

PS if enough of that filter has migrated to the screen that lays betwixt your blower rotors and the atmosphere your engine had no air.

believe me I have found the strangest things obstructing that screen, having been sucked into the intake by sleepy < kind words> mechanics...the funniest...a vinyl pocket protector complete with ink pens....steel rule etc. That motor did not run well either.you may find paper element pieces obstructing yours.

PS Donaldson provides brackets and air intake piping and inlet adapters.....

Quote from: luvrbus on June 21, 2013, 07:05:57 PM
Make brackets and install it close to door by the transmission,those filters can be used with out the intake system that the old GM oil bath had like your buy a 1100 cfm flow and the old 8v71 will love you for it 950 cfm is just not enough air for those engines  to monitor just watch the exhaust for black smoke or change  it once a year

I just checked and the EcoLite and Wix filter are both specced at 1000cfm, and though I can't find a cfm spec on the Baldwin it is listed as a drop in identical replacement for both of the other two model numbers.

But you can be sure we will make sure the next filter setup is 1100cfm, or more.

Thanks!

   - Chris

Per Baldwin s website your current filter Baldwin PA2721  is spec'd for
Vehicle :   Trucks & Buses
Manufacturer :   SPARTAN
Make :   Motorhome Chassis
Model :   NVS GT; NVS ME
Engine :   NVS GT, NVS ME w/Cummins ISC Eng.

Vehicle :   Trucks & Buses
Manufacturer :   ELDORADO
Make :   Buses
Model :   30LF Low Flow Transit
Engine :   30LF Low Flow Transit w/LNG Eng. (1999-2001)

FREIGHTLINER Chassis XC-Series

Vehicle :   Trucks & Buses
Manufacturer :   FREIGHTLINER
Make :   Chassis
Model :   XC-Series
Engine :   XC-Series w/Cummins ISL Eng.

Wikipedia:
The Cummins ISL is a straight-six diesel engine designed and produced by Cummins. It displaces 8.9 litres (543.1 cu in), and began production in 1998.



This may help sort the CFM of the Baldwin PA2721
 

I have used Baldwin air filters (Have a set in the bus now) and from what I have seen their quality is as good as the the other big names. Lots of pleats and sturdy expanded metal inside and out.

I'm also wondering why Baldwin is considered a poor choice for filters.  I have my oil changed by a bus garage and they use Baldwin oil filters.  My air filters have all been real Donaldson filters because they were the least expensive or I didn't have another choice when I needed one.

You can make your choice about Baldwin-but Detroit already has. If you use a Baldwin oil filter on a DD13, DD15, or DD16 your engine warranty will be void. Why? Because the new Detroits have 50,000mi oil change interval. Two problems-the Baldwin oil filter was found to disintegrate at about 35,000mi and let the engine ingest oil filter element. Also, the oil filter on the DD engines is supposed to have a check valve built into it preventing the oil filter from back flowing down into the oil pan after the engine is shut down keeping the oil filter filled with oil. The Baldwin oil filter did not have the check valve-hence every time you started the engine, the oil filter had to refill up-which meant premature bearing failure and usually a thrown rod.

With the many excellent filters available (I use Donaldson-which happens to be who makes Detroit filters), why would you risk your engine on a Baldwin? My truck came back from Pedco (now Ironman) with Baldwin filters. It now has Donaldson filters. Good luck, TomC

I could only comment on the air filters. They looked good to me.

I am non-apologetically installing K&N filters this week in my bus. I am tired of laying out $100 every time I make a trip up and down my driveway. With the few miles I put on my bus I am not to worried about it. But I think this testing of filters will interest all who are following this topic.


Debunking the K&N Myth – Why OEM is Better (http://www.nicoclub.com/archives/kn-vs-oem-filter.html)


K&N air filter test and review

For decades, the aftermarket hot rod, racing and tuning communities have relied on oiled-media filters to free up that extra few horsepower. In fact, it's often one of the FIRST modifications many automotive enthusiasts do to their car. K&N filters, to their credit, is generally known to be the top name in oiled filters, and they do a great job of building a quality product. However, it's always important to evaluate the claims and see exactly what you're getting for your money.

This report shows, with empirical data and sound reasoning, why OEM filters perform better in a variety of areas.

Special thanks to Arlen Spicer and all others involved in making this information available.

A note from the author:
The reason I started this crusade was that I was seeing people spend a lot of money on aftermarket filters based on the word of a salesperson or based on the misleading, incomplete or outright deceiving information printed on boxes and in sales literature. Gentlemen and Ladies, marketing and the lure of profit is VERY POWERFUL! It is amazing how many people believe that better airflow = more power! Unless you have modifications out the wazoo, a more porous filter will just dirty your oil! Some will say, I have used aftermarket brand X for XXX # years with no problems. The PROBLEM is you spent a chunk of change on a product that not only DID NOT increase your horsepower, but also let in a lot of dirt while doing it! Now how much is a lot? ANY MORE THAN NECESSARY is TOO MUCH!

Others are persuaded by the claims of aftermarket manufacturers that their filters filter dirt "better than any other filter on the market." Sounds very enticing. To small timers like you and me, spending $1500 to test a filter sounds like a lot. But if you were a filter manufacturer and you believed your filter could filter dirt better than any other media on the market, wouldn't you want to prove it? Guess what. Test your filter vs. the OE paper. It will cost you $3000 and for that price you will have the data that you can use in your advertisements. Your investment will be returned a thousand fold! EASIER than shooting fish in a barrel! So why don't these manufacturers do this? Hmmm? Probably not because they would feel guilty about taking more market share.

Now I am not saying that ALL aftermarket filters are useless. A paper filter does not do well if directly wetted or muddy. It may collapse. This is why many off-road filters are foam. It is a compromise between filtering efficiency and protection from a collapsed filter. Now how many of our vehicles collapse their filters from mud and water?

However, if a filter is using "better airflow" as their marketing tool, remember this....Does it flow better? At very high airflow volumes, probably. BUT, our engines CAN'T flow that much air unless super-modified, so what is the point? The stock filter will flow MORE THAN ENOUGH AIR to give you ALL THE HORSEPOWER the engine has to give. And this remains true until the filter is dirty enough to be recognizeable. At that point performance will decline somewhat. Replace the filter and get on with it.

Hopefully the results of this test will do 2 things. Shed some light on the misleading marketing claims of some aftermarket manufacturers and/or give us new insight on products already on the market that are superior to our OE filter.

SCOPE:
This report presents the results of an ISO 5011 test of several air filters designed for the GM Duramax Diesel. The test was independently performed under controlled conditions using a $285,000 machine at Testand Corp of Rhode Island (manufacturer of the machine).

Arlen Spicer, a GM Duramax Diesel owner/enthusiast organized the test. Testand offered to perform the tests at no charge. (These tests typically cost approx $1700.00 per filter). Ken (and employee of Testand), a Diesel enthusiast and owner of a Ford Power Stroke Diesel, shared Arlen's interest in performing an accurate unbiased test of different types and brands of diesel engine air filters.

The filters used in the test were purchased retail and donated by Arlen and other individual Duramax Diesel owners. The detailed reports from the test have been compiled and are presented in the following pages. The final pages of this report present the behind the test.

ISO 5011 Test:
The ISO 5011 Standard (formerly SAE J726) defines a precise filter test using precision measurements under controlled conditions. Temperature & humidity of the test dust and air used in the test are strictly monitored and controlled. As Arlen learned in attempting his own tests, there are many variables that can adversely affect filter test results. A small temperature change or a small change in humidity can cause the mass of a paper filter to change by several grams.

To obtain an accurate measure of filter efficiency, it's critical to know the EXACT amount of test dust being fed into the filter during the test. By following the ISO 5011 standard, a filter tested in Germany can be compared directly compared to another filter tested 5 years later in Rhode Island. The ISO 5011 filter test data for each filter is contained in two test reports; Capacity-Efficiency and Flow Restriction.

Capacity and Efficiency:
The Capacity and Efficiency test report presents the test results of feeding an initially clean filter with PTI Course Test Dust (dirt) at a constant rate and airflow. The course test dust has a specific distribution of particle sizes ranging from less than 2.5 microns to greater than 80 microns (see table below).

Every filter is initially tested at 350 CFM and the Initial Restriction or differential pressure across the filter is recorded in IN-H20 (Inches of Water). The filter is then tested by feeding test dust at a nominal rate of 9.8 grams per minute with a constant airflow of 350 CFM. The test is continued until the flow restriction exceeds the Initial Restriction + 10 IN-H20.

At this point the test is terminated and the amount of dust passed through the filter (Accumulative Gain) is measured. Dirt passing through the filter is captured in the Test Station's Post Filter. The exact amount of dirt passed is determined by measuring the before and after weight of the Post Filter.
Similarly, the amount of dirt retained by the Filter under test – Accumulative Capacity – is measured by taking the difference between the before and after weights of the Filter. From these results the overall % Efficiency of the filter is calculated. This test also indicates how long a Filter will last before replacement is required (or cleaning for reusable filters).

Flow Restriction:
This report presents flow restriction of a clean filter resulting from an increasing airflow. The differential pressure restriction across the filter is reported in inches of water (IN H2O) versus Air Flow in cubic feet per minute CFM.

Data from these reports has been compiled and presented in the following bar graphs, plots and data tables.

Filtering Efficiency:
Filtering efficiency is a measure of the filter's overall ability to capture dirt.

*Graphic 1*

Accumulative Capacity:

"Accumulative Capacity" is a measure of dirt holding/loading capacity before reaching the maximum restriction limit.

Initial Restriction + 10 IN-H20.

*Graphic 2*

Accumulative Gain:
"Accumulative Gain" is the total amount of dirt that passed through the filter during the test.

*Graphic 3*

(Note: The Purolator was reported to have a seal malfunction during the test and passed more dirt than it would have with a good seal.)

Initial Restriction:
Initial Restriction is the Filter under test's resistance to flow at 350 CFM.

*Graphic 4*

Dirt Passed Versus Total Test Time:

This graph shows each the duration of each filter's test versus dirt passed (Accumulative Gain).

*Graphic 5*

(Note: The Purolator was reported to have a seal malfunction during the test and passed more dirt than it would have with a good seal.)

In the chart above it's important to note the different test durations for each filter. The AC Delco filter test ran for 60 minutes before exceeding the restriction limit while the AMSOIL and K&N tests each ran for 20 and 24 minutes respectively before reaching max restriction.

In 60 minutes the AC Filter accumulated 574gms of dirt and passed only 0.4gms. After only 24 minutes the K&N had accumulated 221gms of dirt but passed 7.0gms.

Compared to the AC, the K&N "plugged up" nearly 3 times faster, passed 18 times more dirt and captured 37% less dirt. See the data tables for a complete summary of these comparisons.

Dust Loading:
The dust loading curves show graphically how each filter responded to a constant 9.8 gms/min dust flow before reaching the maximum restriction limit.

*Graphic 6*

K&N filter restriction

It's interesting to note the shape of these Dust Loading Curves. The AC and Baldwin filters each had near linear responses until reaching maximum restriction. Restriction for these filters increased at a constant rate versus the 9.8 gms/min dust feed rate.

The other filters, most notably the oiled reusable types, had an exponential loading response before reaching maximum restriction. These filters had a lower initial restriction, but they became exponentially more restrictive under a constant flow of dirt.

This runs counter to the "myth" that oiled media filters actually "work better" as they get dirtier.

Also notice the length of the curves as it shows the relative test time for each filter (time to max restriction).

Restriction to Flow:The Restriction to Flow curves graphically show how each "clean" filter responded to a steadily increasing flow of air up to 350 CFM.

*Graphic 7*

The Flow Restriction response curves for each filter have the same basic shape. However, note how the AC Filter, which passed the smallest amount of dirt and had the highest dirt capacity and efficiency, also had the highest relative restriction to flow. The less efficient filters correspondingly had less restriction to flow.

This illustrates the apparent trade-offs between optimizing a filter for dirt capturing ability and maximum airflow.

We hope you've enjoyed this article – There's a lot more Nissan technical articles and useful "how-to" automotive tutorials here – Plus, the friendliest community of car enthusiasts on the web!

Stick around and check out what we have to offer!

Use the blue link, I cannot get the graphics to upload. If anyone else can get it to work it would be helpful for the archives.

Wow-what a kick in the head.  The filter collapse and the likely failure of the blower seals would explain the oil in the airbox.  I don't know how that would lead to coolant loss without another failure of some kind.
Even if that was all that was wrong, you likely dusted the engine with all that dirt.

It does mean though that you might get it running well enough at a reasonable cost to move it to Bakersfield or wherever.

I'm not one to litigate at the drop of a hat but I would certainly be looking for some relief here.  Continue to document everything.

A lack of intake air can kill an engine.  Dina buses are notorious for birds building nests in the air intake.  BK knows a charter company running a Dina or two that lost a Series 60 engine due to plugged air intake.  I had a bird nest in mine when I bought it, but it wasn't bad enough to plug the intake totally.  I removed the nest and put hardware cloth over the air intake.

Are Baldwin oil filters really that bad that they shouldn't be used at all on a Series 60?  I just had my oil changed and the shop used Baldwin.  The other shop that normally does my oil changes also uses Baldwin.  I did my own oil change last year and used Fleetguard filters.  (It only costs about $50 labor for oil change so I am going to let a shop do it rather than deal with 10 gallons of used oil.)

What you have to remember-K&N is mostly designed for gasoline engines which don't run at full throttle most of the time. Diesels run at full throttle all the time (no butterfly valve in the intake). You'll notice the K&N has the most dirt ingestion-the Delco paper the least (Donaldson made). For racing engines that only have to run for a few hundred hours then are rebuilt, the K&N is great. On a Diesel that is trying to get thousands of hours of operation, stick with OEM paper element and DON'T blow out the element trying to clean it! Good Luck, TomC

I figured out my late night mistake:

Graphic 1-4

Graphic 5-7

QuoteWhat you have to remember-K&N is mostly designed for gasoline engines which don't run at full throttle most of the time.

Not these:

K&N Diesel Air Filters (http://www.knfilters.com/hdfilters/heavy-duty-air-filters.htm)

It is important to point out that the K&N heavy duty air filters are not the ones used in the test above, they were the standard air filters. K&N recommends when using their standard filter in a dirty environment to increase the oil on the filter. Their heavy duty filter line does not use oil.

K&N has a great marketing department! Filters, Not so much.

Quote from: azdieselman on June 22, 2013, 07:44:59 AM
K&N has a great marketing department! Filters, Not so much.

you may say that but I know better.
I have the same K+N  filter in my coach that was in it when I bought it.....I am 44000 miles into it and the previous owner probably had the same...one of my trips was on the Alcan in winter sucking the sand that they use to aid tires on almost every mile. when I got to Beatty, NV I bet I scraped a 1/4 cup of grit from the pre-cleaner area of the filter housing..
And if you read up on their new Hvy Diesel elements....they can be cleaned with a pressure washer....

"A Washable Heavy Duty Air Filter
K&N has developed a new line of washable commercial grade air filters designed specifically for large turbo diesel engines, class 6-8 over-the-road trucks, agricultural and earth moving equipment, and diesel motorhomes. Built with the unique characteristics of turbo diesel engines in mind, these air filters do not require the use of oil and can be easily cleaned with power sprayers or commercial parts washers. The filters are also designed to provide lower restriction and higher air flow, while delivering exceptional filtration efficiency, and extended service lives...."

Yeah, I should be careful not to bite the hand that feeds. I gets lots of work from them on pickups. Even when I show customers their turbo damage, They won't believe it was the air filter.

(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.knfilters.com%2Fimages%2Fhdfilters%2Fdegreaser-mid.jpg&hash=7890d9c39f51952d73aeeac269f2489ffd951112)


Maybe what they won't believe is that they need to check for proper fit and MAINTENANCE>>> ;D

Kevin you are right I just replaced a turbo on 6.5 ate up from the dirt passed thru the K&N but we live in AZ plenty of dust to go around here huh me after doing a 8v92 with a K&N I would not walk across the street for one,

It cost Sean big time also a few years back in case people have forgot that read about his dusted 8v92 here

Shouldn't the intake on an 8v71 be at least 6"?

(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.wheresdoyle.com%2FBusStuff%255C6inchintake001.jpg&hash=48e1336a6f2003da9b5c2053e99315d058b5817f)

Quote from: azdieselman on June 22, 2013, 08:34:59 AM
Yeah, I should be careful not to bite the hand that feeds. I gets lots of work from them on pickups. Even when I show customers their turbo damage, They won't believe it was the air filter.

And tin cans and cell phones will never catch on... ;D

PS my 1976 Ford Bronco had 231,000 miles on it when I let a kid talk me out of it....had a K+N....
got a 1995 Tahoe you know the one with the throttle body injection...got 180000 on it.....has a K+N also....
My 1997 Jeep GC (gave it to a young gal with kids two years ago) 187000 miles on it...has a K+N
1982 Harley Davidson.....old low compression epa motor running oversized forged aluminium pistons at 10.1 Comp ratio since 1983......well over 100000 miles between overhauls.....guess what...sports a K+N filter...
I guess I got all the good ones.

My Suburban has 250k with a K&N. I admit I waited 100k to clean it, 2x the recommended interval. It had enough dirt at the intake that you couldn't see the pleats, and yet the indicator still was showing green (Yes, I know they can't be trusted). I live on a very long dirt driveway and my vehicles ingest a lot of dirt, filter changes for me just got to be excessive. Except for the occasional 1500 to 8500 mile trips, my bus is lucky to get 250 miles a year on it. I will be dead before it realizes it has K&Ns in it. I wish I could re-power it with a 6v92ta anyways, so attempting to make what is in there last 50+ additional years is not something I am going to sink $100 in air filters a year in. In addition, the PO had incorrectly modified the current filter set up, so when I took ownership it had already gobbled up a lot of dirt. But I don't loose any sleep over it because it still runs, and I am not afraid to cross Coal Mt. Pass with it (10,640ft). Also the dirtier filters get the more dirt they filter, so in short order they will be clogged just like the paper, but at least I can clean them. My bus is a survivor, not a queen, we have great fun with it. My money is better spent finding something better, something someone else has babied, and is willing to take a bath on their investment. It will all be a mute point with the Fed's collapse the economy with their out of control bond buying. We will all wish we stored food, and not played with buses.

Being in SW bygaawd Virginia... ;D, my guess is that you, your family, your coach AND your K+N filters will all do well despite what Ben Bernanke may or may not have  up his sleeve......

People buy an use what ever they think is best for the buck if K&N works for you by all means use it because it is your money and your vehicle 

I am still trying to figure out how K&N got into this lol   

A vendor at the FMCA rallies sold the K&N for years Donnie has pass away now but man he had a ton of law suits against him before he passed away and all he did was sell the filter

I'm in the turbocharger "building" biz..   I LOVE snake oiled cotton filters..   FOD damage, dusted blade tips..   Packed intercoolers keep my business jumpin..   All fun at the expense of the folks that RUN em..   Yes, we know that there are special ones that leave the factory with the magic oil that require you never to replace them..   That's code words for never having to remove and clean them..   And then you put them on the driveway and hit em with a 2000 PSI pressure washer...

Since we are having such a great week with all the FUN threads..     Buyer beware..   It only takes that one dusty driveway and that hole in the cotton pleat that you blew thru with the pressure washer or air blower..   

I stopped arguing with customers long ago. Run what you want. They and the other performance filter manufacturers cause plenty of issues with late model cars and trucks. It's been more than a few times that installing a factory air filter repaired the MIL.

QuoteBeing in SW bygaawd Virginia... Grin, my guess is that you, your family, your coach AND your K+N filters will all do well

This is a good place to survive if it does go bad.



Believe it or not I agree with the other posters and I know the pitfalls of the K&N filter, and I don't defend them. I have made my decision, with my eyes wide open, that will best suite my needs, and what will best suite even if it is not the absolute best their is. I don't have a turbo to sandblast on anything I own at this time, and if I got one I would reevaluate the situation. My wife drives the nicest car, I have no plans to run K&N in it.

No turbo but a blower that will do some sandblasting on it's own lol

Wow Chris that will mess up your whole day. haven't seen that in a long time. to bring this back on topic The cfm for a cummins isx 1800 rpm 400 hp 1063 cfm, 2000 rpm 600 hp 1227 cfm an 8V71N2300 rpm 314 hp 954 cfm hope that helps. I would size the air filter for 1200 cfm, That way you can run almost any injector you would want ( within reason )if some where down the line you wanted to change HP

Don

Another way to possibly avoid a Big Problem is to be able to look inside the air filter.   My bus originally had an air inlet housing that prevented seeing inside the filter, so I instead made a quick-disconnect for it that allows me to easily remove the top housing and peer down into the guts of the filter.   This is how I found that my old filter had lots of small splits in its inner pleated surface  -  fortunately they hadn't split all the way through, so I don't think any unfiltered air got to the engine.   Obviously if the filter is split, the Filter Minder won't alert you:  it will still show everything is OK.   Just because a filter looks good on its outside doesn't always mean it's not damaged internally.   Just to be sure, I also did an oil analysis that showed no elevated silicate level.   (Mind you, it did show an elevated sodium level, but I've discovered the reason for that, and there's nothing to be worried about, I hope . . .)

Another idea  -  why not have a coarse screen on the filter's outlet to trap any large chunks if the filter's beginning to break up?

John

why not have a coarse screen on the filter's outlet to trap any large chunks if the filter's beginning to break up?

FWIW...
there was a coarse screen laying on top of every DD blower, under the air horn that I have ever taken apart...if it is not there I would want to know who when and why....if that info was recent and available.

The filter was too small, the P.O. should of bought a filter twice that size.  I may have more comments, but I have other posts to regard.

--Geoff

Quote from: Geoff on June 22, 2013, 04:44:38 PM
The filter was too small, the P.O. should of bought a filter twice that size.  I may have more comments, but I have other posts to regard.
--Geoff

Not everyone has your experience. I believe they used the best advice they had at the time.......... just saying.
Additionally I don't think I ever heard anyone say that there was such a thing as to large of an air filler.... just saying.

6 inch intake is good but 7 inch is better like they say bigger is better

As near as I can get from online, that filter should be rated for 1000 cfm, which is a bit short of what some recommend but is within a reasonable range.  There are different possibilities for the failure, but I do not think it is merely an issue of capacity.  It could be factory defect, massive over revving of engine, getting too wet, over clogging, etc.  I am sure that many here have filters with equal capacity forever and have not had problems.

Of course, extra capacity is better.  My current canister has 6 inch ports, but I would try to find a filter element with a higher rating before I change out the whole thing.

QuoteNo turbo but a blower that will do some sandblasting on it's own lol

Yes, I agree. Just as a smoker knows what harm they are doing.....I am playing the odds. The motor is already worn out, it only needs to last a few more years, not decades. And don't forget as soon as the filter gets clogged up, it won't pass any dirt at all, just like the paper ones. I already have a spare 8v71 in the cradle with a documented rebuild and another that runs but I don't know if it is a healthy one or not. I don't want to re-power with anything non-turbo, but I do have plan B and C. My bus is not my hobby, it is only a tool to have some fun with. When all of my children are gone, scattered all over, then I will shake things up a bit.

Working on the exhaust is good GM and MCI are terrible about trying to get the correct flow from their exhaust system they get nowhere close to the 2180 cfm required for a 8V71 

I find the bus manufactures size the air cleaners then install 90 bends makes no sense, same with the exhaust systems Eagles with the 8v71 got it right on the exhaust system dual 3 inch pipes and they sound sweet and don't run hot   

Quote from: Geoff on June 22, 2013, 04:44:38 PM
The filter was too small, the P.O. should of bought a filter twice that size. 

The Donaldson Filters guide lists 874cfm as the required airflow for a Detroit Diesel 8V71N at 2100rpm. Don Fairchild just chimed in with 954cfm as the requirement if the governor is set for 2300rpm.  (Ours is 2100rpm...)

Either way - the 1000cfm filter that was in the bus when we bought it was certainly not too small, though going larger to 1200cfm will be the plan going forward.

As for twice the size - 2000cfm??  Really?

Does anyone here have a filter that large on an 8V71N?

Cheers,

   - Chris

954 cfm is for a 314 hp setting with no bends set at 2300 rpm no load or 2100 rpm load fwiw 2100 rpm no load will give you around 1800 +  at load, the 2300 to 2500 rpm no load is the standard setting for a 8v71

OK you guys got me to thinking of my set up and what can fail.

I do have(did) a Baldwin PA2503. I have a 6" inlet 90 directly into the filter, the a 5" outlet with a 45 into the turbo of my 6V92TA. Changed 5 yrs ago, 10K miles since. Gosh I need to retire & go !

Outside of ditching the Baldwin, am I passinng enough air to keep my engine going for a long while ?? I know pics would help, I forgot.....

Thanks,

BTW, my good friend Lukie sold me the Baldwin... Hope is well, just have not stopped by recently.

Just got 2 Baldwin PA1676-FN air filters to replace my WIX - 42125 in my rebuild.  The pleats are noticeably spaced wider on the Baldwin than the WIX and you can see more "light" through the Baldwin.

The expanded metal looks thinner and filter element is not glued to the metal as with the  WIX.  Guess there was a reason for $45 vs $70

I suppose I'll run 'em about 10k or 6 months and toss, then go back to NAPA Gold, WIX or Donaldson.

Now there is some great info for you guys with different materials and manufacturing process used in air filters by different manufactures

I couldn't remember what air filter I had so I looked it up.  I have a Donaldson Eco SM, which is 7" in and out, 1550 cfm and there is a single 90 degree reducer elbow to the 5" turbo inlet.  It's bloody big, though!  I had all sorts of visions of neato mounting tricks I would use, I removed the stock 4 filter oil bath setup so I had lots of room, and it all went out the window when I got it home from the store and it could barely fit through the side door of the engine bay. 

www.donaldson.com/en/engine/support/datalibrary/000622.pdf‎ (http://www.donaldson.com/en/engine/support/datalibrary/000622.pdf‎)  One thing I noticed, though, looking at the picture of the failed air filter.  My filter looks very similar, big can with a port on the side and a port on the top.  The top port is the outlet to the turbo, drawing air from the inside of the round filter, and the inlet to the filter is on the side drawing air from around the circumference of the filter element.  The picture seemed to have that reversed, with air being pulled out of the side port.  If the direction of suction is reversed from what was intended could that have contributed to a failure?

Brian

A little info for the 1 piece filter all manufactures build those under a license agreement from Parker it's their  design and patent no matter who the name is on the filter enough failures they will pull the license

Quote from: bevans6 on June 23, 2013, 07:57:14 AM

www.donaldson.com/en/engine/support/datalibrary/000622.pdf‎ (http://www.donaldson.com/en/engine/support/datalibrary/000622.pdf‎)  

If the direction of suction is reversed from what was intended could that have contributed to a failure?

ABSOLUTELY..... I was going to mention this to Cherie the Riveter and Captain Zeph later as they seem overwhelmed at the moment...but I have not researched the flow moments of the Baldwin previously installed yet....Donaldson does warn...and most filters load at 90* to plane...not unload. HAVING SAID THAT SOME are spcd for inside out flo.

FWIW...A FILTER MINDER must be mounted/located atleast one pipe diameter from a bend or transition in order to be accurate.

Not taking anything away or bad mouthing C&C but I have saw the install the PO did it's not something I would send out the first time they changed it in Utah at Michel's place it took 2 days with 4 people and all the stuff they could get from HD maybe not quite that bad but it is bad

I have used that type filter for over 20 years not that brand, if not marked for inlet only they can be used both ways the tapered cones types are 1 way but they will be marked 

The best one is the type with the clip on reusable saddle inlet that sets on the canister  makes changing a 2 minute job and the saddle is a long oblong that has no corners

There is a lot more to skinning a cat than meets the eye....and it's even harder when you have to engineer stuff out in the middle of know where....
most shops...like iState would have one or two service writers directing a master mechanic who will oversee the work out on the floor...
and the service manager would have a few qualified people certifying things like radiator cooling capacity and piping restrictions and bends...
or combustion air flow requirements...in and out...
or fuel limits...with experts in those disciplines...not by the it worked on his and remember that one we built two years ago that hasn't failed yet method.....

hardly ever in a warranty implied obligation is the guy doing the work the one who decides everything.(possibly anything)
it takes many years of experience to do ALL of that....and can frustrate the heck out of the G's and C's and T's and others who have earned their reps and careers on those backgrounds.
and then you have guys like me who employed people personalities to interact with the public...cuz I am just not good at that.
the stuff in the background and the wrenching that's were I can help.
I can be a real pain or asset when it comes to assuring that all the pieces work together.
just like Cherie and company....it would be very hard to BS them in there expertise and impossible to put one past them or convince them that you were right when they know better.
and as they would tell a client ...I can't see everything from a 100 miles away.

one call to Donaldson and in twenty minutes they will be able to figure out a lot.

after manually searching Baldwin's online application guide using bus/truck on hwy  8v71 criteria...the only elements that I could find that they endorse was PA1846 AND PA1846XP...for anything powered by a 8v71.
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcatalog.baldwinfilter.com%2FPartImages%2FPA1846XP.jpg&hash=ebc4fb3eca637e2187eeb985b070a92180c10152)

I am yet uncertain if an eco style by Baldwin is an approved replacement.

so...after further research:
Baldwin PA2721 crosses to the following spec Donaldson ECO style
1000 cfm @ 5" H20 P537447 ECOLITE

the following (DONALDSON ECO)  elements are suitable for CFM
BUT one must consider and understand inches of water column to properly select. Using the parameters previously discussed....
and then considering dimensions of available space, limits, obstruction piping calcs,  etc. etc. etc.

so as is shown the smallest least likely acceptable unit was sourced...

Baldwin PA2721 crosses to P537447 ECOLITE
1000 cfm @ 5" H20 P537447 ECOLITE
1000 cfm @ 6" H20 P527586 ECO-CM
1000 cfm @ 7" H20 P524837 ECO-II
1100 cfm @ 6" H20 P537450 ECO-CM
1200 cfm @ 5" H20 P537448 ECOLITE
1200 cfm @ 6" H20 P154927 ECO-II
1230 cfm @ 8" H20 P607373 ECO-SE
1400 cfm @ 7" H20 P524838 ECO-II
1500 cfm @ 5" H20 P537449 ECOLITE
1500 cfm @ 7" H20 P528722 ECO-II
1530 cfm @ 8" H20 P537456 ECO-SM
1550 cfm @ 8" H20 P537455 ECO-SM

a filter that can be candled would be MY least acceptable selection.
and for that reason alone I would be hesitant to use an ECO style.
someone who has 100's or 1000's of hours piloting a diesel engine and has a natural feel for engine response  might get by with that style filter....I just would not be confident using them.
more ramble to consider/follow.... ;D

pS...I now believe (after research) that the flow direction of the PA2721 Baldwin ECO clone was correct as installed.... :)

1500 cfm @ 5" H20 P537449 ECOLITE ;D
Inlet Diameter:  7 Inches (177.8 MM)
Outlet Diameter:  7 Inches (177.8 MM)
Body Diameter:  13.5 Inches (342.9 MM)
Body Length:  24 Inches (609.6 MM)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/P537449-Donaldson-ECO-x-PA2723-/181065033100?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item2a2851258c&vxp=mtr (http://www.ebay.com/itm/P537449-Donaldson-ECO-x-PA2723-/181065033100?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item2a2851258c&vxp=mtr)

1200 cfm @ 5" H20 P537448 ECOLITE ;D
Inlet Diameter:  7 Inches (177.8 MM)
Outlet Diameter:  7 Inches (177.8 MM)
Body Diameter:  11 Inches (279.4 MM)
Body Length:  24 Inches (609.6 MM)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/P537448-Donaldson-ECO-x-PA2722-AH1105-AH8503-CA7230-88893-FA8912/181109845773?rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222005%26algo%3DSIC.NUQ%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D16096%26meid%3D8593596927945379490%26pid%3D100005%26prg%3D7683%26rk%3D1%26sd%3D181065033100%26 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/P537448-Donaldson-ECO-x-PA2722-AH1105-AH8503-CA7230-88893-FA8912/181109845773?rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222005%26algo%3DSIC.NUQ%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D16096%26meid%3D8593596927945379490%26pid%3D100005%26prg%3D7683%26rk%3D1%26sd%3D181065033100%26)