ok here I am confused and need some help..
my Bus has a 50 amp power cord that I plug in at campsites and have never had issues with it.. well yesterday at home I ran the bus plug into my shop and then added a 30 amp adapter and a 20 amp adapter so I could plug bus into standard outlet in shop.
when I went into RV the front A/C does not turn on and a few outlets have no power.. but the back A/C works.. I pulled open breaker box and nothing is disconnected our loose..
what I am trying to figure out is 2 parts.. 1: when using a 20 amp plus will only part of the bus have power? 2: when we plug bus into 50AMP is it actually 110V or 240V?
thanks for any help?
the breaker question is has anyone used this type box in an RV/Bus?
it is different then my house one so I am a little confused with it and how it is wired
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Yes to explain simple with the 50 amp plug in you are bringing in two 120 volt legs from your power source and dividing them inside the pictured breaker box. the 30 amp adapter is eliminating one of your supply sides so one half of your box is dead. there are proper adapters available that will take care of that problem for you. Bob
I think Bob pretty much covered it, but in case it wasn't clear enough...the breaker box is not the problem. Your 50-30 adapter is the culprit. Most 50-30 adapters take the single 120 hot input and supply that power to BOTH legs of the 50 amp chord/box. Your adapter is either home made and wired incorrectly, or it is the wrong kind. There are a few 50-30 adapters out there that only supply power to one leg of the 50. You have to be careful when buying an adapter.
Bob is correct in that the 50-30 adapter you have is not connecting both legs together as most do.
However, you have opened yourself up to a world of static from the board, including me, by posting the pictures of your breaker box.
First and foremost, extension cords are not acceptable for permanent wiring. I cannot stress that enough. I know it is done but I would not sleep one night in a bus so wired and it would be an absolute deal breaker if I were looking at a used bus to purchase.
Second, you need a separate ground bar for that breaker panel. It looks like it is wired for 240, though I cannot tell exactly where the white lead from the main cable is connected. If it is connected to the right side line in, then it looks like it's 240 but you only have a three wire cable. Hard to tell from the picture but the cable looks like 10 ga. That would be appropriate for a 30 amp/120 volt service, but it is wired wrong.
There are many other issues that I see. Suffice it to say that I think you need more advice on wiring than you can get from a board like this one.
Len
???is that a 30 amp power cord with a 50 amp plug in on it? do you have a empty spade on the part you plug into the power supply. ?? if so please let us know and we can help. Bob there is not enough wires and they are to small for a 50 amp cord. shows I should have paid more attention to the picture. The extension cords you are using for wiring are probably 16ga and should not have more than a 15 amp breaker on them. This is not a lecture. a hair dryer pulls 2400 watts or close to 20 amps could fry(burn that cord) A ac on start up (0ne) could pull 18 amps 14 amps running. put anything else on same circuit=trouble. your box is ok. power feed to it needs attention and check breaker size and adjust to wire size. lets start there and walk thru it. a seperate ground outside box is a must. use search function in blue area above to help answer or help ask questions. Please do ask more questions. Others have same questions and people more knowledgeable than I will help also. No dumb question except one not ask. Bob
I'm wondering if that bus doesn't have more than one breaker panel. I have two breaker panels. One is inverter only and the other is shore power/generator only. The shore panel has a 30 amp feed to the inverter and then the inverter passes power to the inverter panel.
all good info..
as for the wiring etc.. this is how the bus was when I bought it.. heck I did not even know I could get in behind the cabinet to get to all this stuff ( I figured that out yesterday )
here is how my wiring goes..
50 amp cord into a junction box under bus ( I will get a picture tonight ) then out other side up into breaker box. 3 wires all hooked up.. Green, White and Black.. then all same colors go to an item.. like my front A/C has Green,white, black all hooked up..
I do understand what you are saying about the 50 to 30adapter and how it is only providing power to one side, that does make sense.. I also understand what you are saying about the cord wiring.. so I guess I need to look into see how hard it is gonna be to replace all the orange wiring..
as for opening up a can.. does not bother me I like to learn :)
Quote from: Len Silva on July 30, 2012, 07:04:19 AM
First and foremost, extension cords are not acceptable for permanent wiring. I cannot stress that enough. I know it is done but I would not sleep one night in a bus so wired and it would be an absolute deal breaker if I were looking at a used bus to purchase.
I will look into how hard it will be to pull new wires asap
Second, you need a separate ground bar for that breaker panel. It looks like it is wired for 240, though I cannot tell exactly where the white lead from the main cable is connected. If it is connected to the right side line in, then it looks like it's 240 but you only have a three wire cable. Hard to tell from the picture but the cable looks like 10 ga. That would be appropriate for a 30 amp/120 volt service, but it is wired wrong.
it does have a separate ground bar.. it is on the right side, hard to see in picture.
There are many other issues that I see. Suffice it to say that I think you need more advice on wiring than you can get from a board like this one.
this is the way the bus came I did not wire this
Len
That orange cord should be marked as to wire size. could adjust breaker size to match wire size. I just read your complete bus project posting and do understand how your bus was built by previous owner a little more now. Bob. Not a aw shoot now just maybe adjust for future.
Quote from: robertglines1 on July 30, 2012, 09:41:47 AM
???is that a 30 amp power cord with a 50 amp plug in on it? do you have a empty spade on the part you plug into the power supply. ?? if so please let us know and we can help.
not sure what you mean? are you saying there should be 3 or 4 connctors on the plug side? I am pretty sure there are only 3.
Bob there is not enough wires and they are to small for a 50 amp cord. shows I should have paid more attention to the picture. The extension cords you are using for wiring are probably 16ga and should not have more than a 15 amp breaker on them. This is not a lecture. a hair dryer pulls 2400 watts or close to 20 amps could fry(burn that cord) A ac on start up (0ne) could pull 18 amps 14 amps running. put anything else on same circuit=trouble. your box is ok. power feed to it needs attention and check breaker size and adjust to wire size. lets start there and walk thru it. a seperate ground outside box is a must. use search function in blue area above to help answer or help ask questions. Please do ask more questions. Others have same questions and people more knowledgeable than I will help also. No dumb question except one not ask. Bob
Quote from: robertglines1 on July 30, 2012, 10:55:59 AM
That orange cord should be marked as to wire size. could adjust breaker size to match wire size. I just read your complete bus project posting and do understand how your bus was built by previous owner a little more now. Bob. Not a aw shoot now just maybe adjust for future.
I will look tonight and see if the orange or black wires actually have anything written on them
I just noticed this exact same thread is on both boards. Here was my reply on the other one, which repeats some of what is said above:
Quote from: Sean on July 30, 2012, 11:42:30 AM
Aaaaaaack!!!
I would not plug that coach into anything without a complete re-wire. It is a death trap.
For starters, the circuits have been run with junior hard service cord (SJ) or worse. Not only against the law, but highly dangerous -- a fire waiting to happen. These all need to be replaced with NM, AC, MC, or conduit. Even the main feed is SO, and appears undersized as well.
Second, I don't see even a single ground wire connected. Worse than just disconnected is that they are loose in the box, where they can come into contact with a 120v source, thus energizing an appliance frame.
Third, and this is probably the source of your apparent lack of power, this is a 120/240-volt split phase panel, but is being fed with three-wire SO. I can't tell from the photo whether you've got straight 120 coming in with hot, neutral, and ground properly colored, or if someone jury-rigged 240 on the wrong colors. Something is amiss in either case, because if it is fed straight 120, I don't see the correct jumper to gang that 120 onto both buss-bars.
Sorting this out will require a good voltmeter, ohmeter, time, patience, and a thorough understanding of split-phase electrical systems. I strongly recommend you do not connect this panel to any power source until it has been corrected, tested, and documented.
FWIW.
The other parts of your question have been answered many times here -- lots of detailed information in the archives. The short answer is that 50-amp RV service is 120/240-volt split phase, capable of 12,000 watts. 30-amp, 20-amp, and 15-amp service are straight 120, capable of 3600, 2400, and 1800 watts, respectively. Adapters from the smaller services to 50-amp generally put the single 120-volt power source on both legs, so everything is energized, but you are still limited to the lower number of watts. 240-volt appliances will not work when the same source is on both legs.
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com (http://ourodyssey.blogspot.com)
On closer inspection it now appears to me that the green wire from the incoming feed is carrying the second hot leg. In addition to the huge problem of the color coding being incorrect, a life safety hazard (anyone working on electricity will expect the green wire to be grounded, not carrying 240VAC), this means there is no independent connection to either the shore ground or the shore neutral, meaning one or the other is disconnected, or they are bridged someplace, either of which can be deadly. I will reiterate what I said above -- I would not plug this coach in until this is all sorted out and corrected.
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com (http://ourodyssey.blogspot.com)
OMG! Did a child wire this up? As Sean said DO NOT use this system that is wired without ground of any kind.
A 4 wire cable bringing in the power from the pole should be used to obtain grounding. Good Luck, TomC
Quote from: Sean on July 30, 2012, 01:08:37 PM
I just noticed this exact same thread is on both boards. Here was my reply on the other one, which repeats some of what is said above:
Quote from: Sean on July 30, 2012, 11:42:30 AM
Aaaaaaack!!!
I would not plug that coach into anything without a complete re-wire. It is a death trap.
For starters, the circuits have been run with junior hard service cord (SJ) or worse. Not only against the law, but highly dangerous -- a fire waiting to happen. These all need to be replaced with NM, AC, MC, or conduit. Even the main feed is SO, and appears undersized as well.
Second, I don't see even a single ground wire connected. Worse than just disconnected is that they are loose in the box, where they can come into contact with a 120v source, thus energizing an appliance frame.
Third, and this is probably the source of your apparent lack of power, this is a 120/240-volt split phase panel, but is being fed with three-wire SO. I can't tell from the photo whether you've got straight 120 coming in with hot, neutral, and ground properly colored, or if someone jury-rigged 240 on the wrong colors. Something is amiss in either case, because if it is fed straight 120, I don't see the correct jumper to gang that 120 onto both buss-bars.
Sorting this out will require a good voltmeter, ohmeter, time, patience, and a thorough understanding of split-phase electrical systems. I strongly recommend you do not connect this panel to any power source until it has been corrected, tested, and documented.
FWIW.
The other parts of your question have been answered many times here -- lots of detailed information in the archives. The short answer is that 50-amp RV service is 120/240-volt split phase, capable of 12,000 watts. 30-amp, 20-amp, and 15-amp service are straight 120, capable of 3600, 2400, and 1800 watts, respectively. Adapters from the smaller services to 50-amp generally put the single 120-volt power source on both legs, so everything is energized, but you are still limited to the lower number of watts. 240-volt appliances will not work when the same source is on both legs.
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com (http://ourodyssey.blogspot.com)
On closer inspection it now appears to me that the green wire from the incoming feed is carrying the second hot leg. In addition to the huge problem of the color coding being incorrect, a life safety hazard (anyone working on electricity will expect the green wire to be grounded, not carrying 240VAC), this means there is no independent connection to either the shore ground or the shore neutral, meaning one or the other is disconnected, or they are bridged someplace, either of which can be deadly. I will reiterate what I said above -- I would not plug this coach in until this is all sorted out and corrected.
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com (http://ourodyssey.blogspot.com)
so let me ask this question..
if the orange wires were correctly wired with correct type of wire and you found the green wires coming from the outlets not grounded what would you do with them? how would you terminate them and to what?
also since it looks like my hot wires are green and black and white is ground in the wire coming from shore power? how would you correct that? I saw mentioned that it should have a 4 wire not 3 wire shore power cord? where would the 4th wire go? to what?
This bus has been in use for several years. right or wrong color code. Question is:: is this the first box in the power line? is mentioned elsewhere of powertransfer switches. Gen sets and converters. So not all is known. Sure would from first glance scare me. AC units have been replaced at least once so this is a old conversion --that has been rebuild that the new owner is trying to get correct. I have have used the wrong colored wire thinking I will never sell this coach--- bad bad Bob.... I don't anymore---don't throw stones!!! Thanks to this board I am more careful now and more aware of how long I might keep able to keep bus! We all Don't have PHD in electrical engineering or licenses or whatever or thousands to have a pro to do it.. So we ask for help!!!!! colored tape could help him correct color code also mentioned there is a earth ground bar outside box. I saw the bare ended wires in box but assumed he was doing some testing. do you know he wasn't? You should have seen the brown lamp cord I took out of a Pro Conversion (2 wire) for receptacles Bob
Based on what we can see, which probably amounts to less than 5% of the wiring in your bus, I would not waste another minute trying to figure out what is right and what is wrong, what can be fixed and what must be replaced.
Whoever wired this bus did not know what they were doing, had no regard for codes or proper wiring methods, nor good workmanship.
I would just start over from the very beginning, remove every bit of wiring, and get help with doing it correctly. I wish you were closer to me, I would be happy to help.
To begin to answer your questions,
Quoteif the orange wires were correctly wired with correct type of wire and you found the green wires coming from the outlets not grounded what would you do with them? how would you terminate them and to what?
That doesn't matter since the orange wires are not acceptable to begin with.
Quotealso since it looks like my hot wires are green and black and white is ground in the wire coming from shore power? how would you correct that? I saw mentioned that it should have a 4 wire not 3 wire shore power cord? where would the 4th wire go? to what?
The four wires would be black and red (usually) for the two hot leads, white for the neutral and green for the ground.
The white should never be connected to ground within the coach except on the other side of a generator or inverter transfer switch.
I don't see a dual pole breaker in that box unless I'm not seeing something. My understanding is that a 50 amp connection should come into a dual 50 amp breaker. Maybe the 50 amp breaker is in that other junction box, but not sure if that is code legal either.
That's what I am doing tomorrow once I get this Kohler installed.
Bruiser, Boy are you in luck! I will be flying to Raleigh in about a week, will be around for 10 days or so. Would like to meet up with ya, Maybe I can be of assist. I'll PM ya!
B. :)
What is up with the Billy Van Hagen, Van did you get a hair cut or is the FBI looking for you lol
Quote from: BRUISER on July 30, 2012, 01:48:39 PM
...
if the orange wires were correctly wired with correct type of wire and you found the green wires coming from the outlets not grounded what would you do with them? how would you terminate them and to what?
The green wires should all be terminated on a "ground" buss-bar, which is separate and isolated from the "neutral" buss-bar to which the white wires are connected. This ground buss would be connected to the green ground wire from the shore cable, and also must be "bonded" to the metal frame of the vehicle with a minimum #8 wire. The white neutral wires should all go to the isolated neutral buss, which must be electrically isolated from the frame and ground system, and is in turn connected to the white neutral wire from the incoming shore cord.
Quote
also since it looks like my hot wires are green and black and white is ground in the wire coming from shore power? how would you correct that? I saw mentioned that it should have a 4 wire not 3 wire shore power cord? where would the 4th wire go? to what?
OK, let me say first say that we are treading onto dangerous turf here. I (or anyone else on this board or other on-line forum) trying to explain the basics of AC power to you in a way that will result in a safe installation is a dicey proposition -- lots can get lost in translation, and you (or a loved one) can end up dead. I'd have to be there, looking over your shoulder, to have any confidence that you will get this right -- there's lots to learn, and you are not going to pick it up from a web site without a lot of hands-on practice inspected by someone who's BTDT.
I strongly recommend you enlist the services of a professional RV electrician. Note I said "RV" -- many residential and industrial electricians will get it wrong, because they have never been trained on, and don't understand, the specific code and safety requirements that pertain to RV wiring.
Let me put it this way: If you found out you needed your appendix removed, you wouldn't attempt it yourself. Likewise you would not represent yourself in court if you were accused of murder. You probably would not construct your own submarine, parachute, helicopter, or roller coaster. So why would you risk your life on sketchy electrical wiring directed remotely by self-styled experts (myself included) on the Internet?
With that disclaimer and recommendation out of the way, the answer to your question is that a proper, 50-amp shore connection has four wires: black, red, and white, all minimum 6-gauge, and green or bare copper, minimum #8 gauge (the ground wire is permitted to be one "trade size" smaller than the current-carrying conductors).
Black and Red are the two "hot" wires, each 120 volts with respect to neutral and ground, and 240 volts with respect to each other. In your panel there are two hot buss-bars, which might be marked X and Y and will have lugs for #6 or larger wire. The buss bars are what the breakers clip to and look, when the breakers are removed, somewhat like combs. The white is the neutral and connects to the isolated neutral buss bar, which is a piece of aluminum with a row of holes with set screws in them. The bare or ground wire goes to the ground buss, which looks a lot like the neutral buss but is separate and probably directly mechanically attached to the metal box, unlike the neutral buss which should be on insulating stand-offs.
The shore cord itself is the only part of the installation permitted to be type SO or SJ (flexible plastic-jacketed cord similar to extension cord). If the shore cord runs directly to the main panel, it can be terminated there if properly secured and strain-relieved by a fitting made for SO/SJ cable. As you described it, though, your shore cord runs to a J-box under the coach. The wiring from the J-box to the main panel must be an approved type such as NM, AC, MC, or conduit (ENT, EMT, etc.) with rated wired such as THHN, THNN, etc.. Note that 6/4 or even 6/3-8/1 cable assemblies will run into several dollars per foot.
If your shore cord itself is not minimum 6/3-8/1, it will need to be replaced with a properly rated cord.
HTH,
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com (http://ourodyssey.blogspot.com)
Quote from: robertglines1 on July 30, 2012, 02:10:54 PM
This bus has been in use for several years. right or wrong color code.
The space shuttles Challenger and Columbia had both been in use several years before they crashed. The same can be said for thousands of aircraft, ships, vehicles elevators, and even nuclear power plants that all had some subtle design or construction flaw that only came to light after people died. This is not a convincing argument, Bob. If it was only the color code, we could talk about it, but what we have here is improper materials, undersized wire, incorrect or missing connections, the list goes on and on. This is UNSAFE -- it should not be a debate.
Quote
... We all Don't have PHD in electrical engineering or licenses or whatever or thousands to have a pro to do it.. So we ask for help!!!!!
Sorry, I don't buy that one, either. When it comes to life safety matters, if you don't have the knowledge or skill to do it yourself, nor do you have the money to have it done right, then you should not do it at all. The person who installed this wiring created a death trap, and then passed it along to someone else without warning. That's just plain irresponsible. The fact that it has not cause an injury or death YET is unpersuasive. I'm sure many reading here are aware that no less than four children were electrocuted (as in killed -- dead) by improper 120-volt wiring last month in cases that made the national news. This stuff can be deadly.
Quote... colored tape could help him correct color code
...
Actually, no, it can't. Colored tape can NEVER be used to re-mark either a white (neutral) wire or a green (ground) wire. Moreover, colored tape may not be used to designate neutral or ground in conductors of these sizes -- we're not talking about 500 MCM here.
Quote from: belfert on July 30, 2012, 02:38:14 PM
I don't see a dual pole breaker in that box unless I'm not seeing something. My understanding is that a 50 amp connection should come into a dual 50 amp breaker. Maybe the 50 amp breaker is in that other junction box, but not sure if that is code legal either.
The code does not require a main breaker in this panel, so long as there is a "main disconnecting means", which could very well be in a panel upstream.
That said, I would be willing to bet that it is also missing in this instance. I'm with Len -- a complete re-wire is the best strategy.
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com (http://ourodyssey.blogspot.com)
Quote from: Sean on July 30, 2012, 05:13:36 PM
... colored tape could help him correct color code
...
Actually, no, it can't. Colored tape can NEVER be used to re-mark either a white (neutral) wire or a green (ground) wire. Moreover, colored tape may not be used to designate neutral or ground in conductors of these sizes -- we're not talking about 500 MCM here.
[/quote]
Can black wire be remarked with tape to be ground or neutral? A friend of mine who was a commercial electrician for 30+ years said I can, but he also didn't state it had to be any specific color of wire to start with. I wouldn't remark 10, 12, or 14 AWG wire, but 6 and 8 AWG get expensive and sometimes one can get a deal on just black wire.
Where does one find an RV electrician? Do RV dealers have licensed electricians doing electrical repairs?
My electrician friend either did the wiring in my bus, or he inspected the work I did. I even read the electric code for recreational vehicles. I won't say my wiring is perfect, but I'm 99% sure I won't have an electrical fire from my 110 volt wiring.
Sean nice presentation/explanation. the second one. We are here to learn and share. I am not a pro but have seam PRO'S do much worse. Will help what little I can without .... safety and life first.. Hope Van can help hands on and eyes on. I think there is more or less here than what we can see. Might be as simple as putting conduit in and running new wire without tearing cabinets and walls out. Noticed there are 9 runs involved. Lets hope for best safe solution. By the way not many RV dealers have qualified Rv electricians. Happy safe bussin Bob
Quote from: belfert on July 30, 2012, 05:25:11 PM
...
Can black wire be remarked with tape to be ground or neutral? A friend of mine who was a commercial electrician for 30+ years said I can, but he also didn't state it had to be any specific color of wire to start with.
Your friend is either seriously out of date, or he only worked with really, really big stuff.
The code only permits this kind of marking (and it does not have to be tape; permanent thermoplastic paint or any durable colorant can be used) on cables above size 4 AWG, because wire mostly only comes in black in larger sizes. Both the neutral and ground in these sizes are commonly marked by coloring the ends.
Per NEC 200.6(A), in sizes up to #6 AWG, neutral wires may ONLY be marked with continuous white or gray insulation, or three continuous white stripes along the entire length on insulation of any other color (except green, which is not permitted).
Per NEC 250.119 ground wires up to #6 AWG must be bare or insulated ONLY with solid green or green with one or more yellow stripes. Once again there is an exception for conductors larger than #4 AWG.
Note also that where permitted (i.e. for conductors lager than #4), the marking must be at both ends AND every other place where the conductor is "accessible".
Since few of us will use wire larger than #6 in our conversions, it is safe to say that all neutrals should be continuous white and all grounds green. This means that you can not, for example, convert an NM cable with Red, Black, and Green wires that was installed for a 240-only circuit into a 120-v circuit by taping one of the former hot wires.
Quote
Where does one find an RV electrician? Do RV dealers have licensed electricians doing electrical repairs?
...
Some do, but they are hard to find. Most states do not regulate it, but, frankly, I would not let anyone work on a coach AC electrical system unless that individual or at least the business holds a state electrical contractor's license, or alternatively a professional certification (such as from RVIA) in electrical systems.
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com (http://ourodyssey.blogspot.com)
thanks again everyone.. there is some great info in here.
lets me clear some stuff up.. this bus was converted in 1999 and yes somehow it ias worked and not burned to the ground :)
as I stated before I have 2 power cords.. one is shore power and one is gen power.. both go into a box.. ( I got pics )
here is where the 2 cords go into box
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.impaks.com%2Fimages%2Fken%2Fbus%2Fimg_1388.jpg&hash=338023b2444f98b8fdd913821d6f37fa3731de55)
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.impaks.com%2Fimages%2Fken%2Fbus%2Fimg_1387.jpg&hash=4b7502ad54246c56c1eb21d6cfbb55955edb023f)
the box cover says this
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.impaks.com%2Fimages%2Fken%2Fbus%2Fimg_1391.jpg&hash=37f61228e08e2a65115e4d92501cf4280df90c34)
and here is the inside of box
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.impaks.com%2Fimages%2Fken%2Fbus%2Fimg_1386.jpg&hash=f50c832e953667fea6fc41dab205646ba4598799)
and then one cord comes out the other side and goes up into my breaker box
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.impaks.com%2Fimages%2Fken%2Fbus%2Fimg_1390.jpg&hash=8c90166b2fc4d984e9d4e638e7cc19aed3596fb1)
the one thing I forgot to get pics of is.. I also have a converter/charger inside bus also..
now does this make it any better then before .. I have no idea... but I figured I needed to show it all and maybe someone with more knowledge can look at what I have and tell me it is all wrong or maybe not so bad and I just need to re wire from breaker to items ( a/c etc )
Quote from: Sean on July 30, 2012, 07:29:33 PM
Quote from: belfert on July 30, 2012, 05:25:11 PM
...
Can black wire be remarked with tape to be ground or neutral? A friend of mine who was a commercial electrician for 30+ years said I can, but he also didn't state it had to be any specific color of wire to start with.
Your friend is either seriously out of date, or he only worked with really, really big stuff.
My friend did a lot of really big commercial stuff. He worked at mines and at an oil refinery.
Too bad black can't be color coded for another color. I can find all kinds of people selling 6 AWG and 8 AWG wire pretty cheap, but it is always black only for whatever reason. The 30 feet of 6 AWG and the 30 feet of 8 AWG (4 wires each) I need will cost me as much all the other wire needed to rewire my bus.
Is there anyway you can help the guy Sean I know it not to specs but for 13 year old wiring it looks good and neat I have seen a lot worse done by the so called pros just my 2 cents worth
Quote from: BRUISER on July 30, 2012, 07:42:58 PM
lets me clear some stuff up.. this bus was converted in 1999 and yes somehow it ias worked and not burned to the ground :)
Well, sure, but the problem with these kinds of things is that they are insidious. They don't always fail catastrophically in some obvious way. I already see evidence of thermal cycling and insulation breakdown in your photos -- that installation is a recipe for disaster, and you might not even wake up when the toxic insulation starts smoldering in the middle of the night and the fumes overcome you.
Quote
as I stated before I have 2 power cords.. one is shore power and one is gen power.. both go into a box.. ( I got pics )
...
now does this make it any better then before ..
Well, it clears some things up, but I'm afraid there is more bad news.
This is your Automatic Transfer Switch. It's pretty clear from the photo that they've run the 240-volt split phase in on a 3-wire SO cable, likely re-purposing the green wire as the second hot leg, as I speculated earlier. There are no grounds, which is extremely dangerous in its own right.
The good news is that the transfer switch can be reused. The bad news is that all the 3-wire SO needs to be replaced with 4-wire NM or other approved material. There is simply no way around this, as you are completely missing a required wire. I can't tell from the photos what gauge this is, but it looks undersized to me, as well. You need to use #6 for this 50-amp service. You will also need to add a ground bar to the ATS if it does not already have one
The SO in this case has been installed with NM fittings, another dangerous mistake. However, you'll be removing most of the SO anyway. If your (correct, 4-wire, 6-gauge) shore cord is going to come right into this box, it should be secured with a proper SO fitting and strain relief.
None of the cables appears to be properly secured, so that should be addressed when you replace the cable.
Quote from: luvrbus on July 30, 2012, 08:17:43 PM
Is there anyway you can help the guy Sean I know it not to specs but for 13 year old wiring it looks good and neat I have seen a lot worse done by the so called pros just my 2 cents worth
Clifford, I think I
am helping. If what you are asking is if there is a way to make this safe without replacing it, I'm sorry to say but I don't see how. The ATS, panels, circuit breakers, and some of the fittings can all be reused. But the wiring needs to be replaced completely, no ifs, ands, or buts about it. SO/SJ is simply not safe in this application -- these cords are made only for temporary use out in the open, exposed to free air. That's on top of the lack of proper grounding and the egregious color code issue.
I, too, have seen improper wiring done by so-called professionals. When I see serious safety issues with those, I make the same recommendation to repair or replace before using the rig.
If I saw any way to make this safe, even temporarily, I would make that suggestion. But frankly, when things are this Mickey-Mouse at the panel, where it is in the open and relatively easy to get to, I can only imagine what horrors lurk in darker places. So honestly, even if there was some quick fix at the panel, I wouldn't apply any power to this installation without inspecting and testing every branch circuit.
To put this another way, after seeing that panel, I would not be able to sleep even a wink in that coach with it energized. I'd be more inclined to run an extension cord in through a window with a plug strip on it to run what I needed until this was fixed. FWIW.
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com (http://ourodyssey.blogspot.com)
I really don't understand about the cords as they are being call here they look like SO or SJ flexible cables the color doesn't mean that much I seen those in red,black,yellow in about every color and your shore line cable is from the S family.
The mining and construction industry ac powered equipment uses nothing but flexible cable some of those cable are 2 inches + in diameter and carry 480 volts and yes you see the orange color. I am not saying his is right but not all flexible cable is for temporary use only unless it just started in the last few years later today I will find my hand book where OSHA tells you what color and where to use a certain color and they do tell you lol
The color of the cable has nothing to do with it. It just happens that the wiring in question was orange, it could have been purple.
The fact is that SO or SJ cable is not intended (or allowable) for permanent, secured, hidden wiring.
Mining and construction have their own sections in the NEC and those cables are permitted for equipment that moves or where flexibility is required. They are still not permitted, even in construction or mining, for permanent wiring, say in an office or permanently attached to a wall.
Len's explanation above is exactly correct. Let me add, however, that even if the correct type and size of cable had been used, say 6-gauge NM, the fact that 3-wire cable has been used where 4-wire cable is called for is also an issue that needs immediate correction.
The SO/SJ branch circuit wiring is certainly a hazard and needs to be corrected. However that can be mitigated by disconnecting individual circuits that are not strictly necessary, and/or carefully managing loads under close supervision until the situation can be corrected fully.
With limited funds or time, I would start by replacing all the SO from the panel through the ATS to the generator set. The shore cord can be dealt with temporarily by converting it back to a 30-amp, 120-volt cord, which would limit the coach to 3,600 watts. (That's still a code problem, but at least it would be safer -- this coach is legally required to have a 50-amp shore service.)
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com (http://ourodyssey.blogspot.com)
few more pics..
here are the ends on my shore power plugs. it has 3 prongs.. do yours have 3 or 4?
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.impaks.com%2Fimages%2Fken%2Fbus%2Fimg_1372.jpg&hash=e509bebe7502fa298497e1622a2cfee039d2e6d1)
here is one side of 30 amp adpater
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.impaks.com%2Fimages%2Fken%2Fbus%2Fimg_1374.jpg&hash=2763b35f403030bc7a4d0c0de2dff7fd7de55172)
other side of 30 amp
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.impaks.com%2Fimages%2Fken%2Fbus%2Fimg_1375.jpg&hash=53f400e7a698d8844985a2646a86e49cb41d3c0e)
and here is 20 amp adapter
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.impaks.com%2Fimages%2Fken%2Fbus%2Fimg_1377.jpg&hash=f5279ebb43c4aa1ffa2aa3d36e6dbeed6a9b3cbe)
so do these look like everyone else's?
I am just trying to make a list of all the things I need to change to correct this.. and why not start at plug ends and work my way all the way to breaker box..
if my 50 amp plug looks good how do you wire the 4 wire setup on plug end?
thanks again for all the help
the most important post is missing on your 50 amp. Look inside and see if your green wire is cut off at end of cable. Start there. then note which wires are attached to each spade left right bottom.
I have nothing of substance to add, other than that this thread TOTALLY VALIDATES the money I am currently spending in having a professional electrician completely rewire the AC system of my bus. I wound up gutting it down to the frame, and most of the original wiring went out with the cabinets, furniture, etc. We're starting from a new breaker panel and shore power cord all the way to sockets and lights in the coach. I knew I was in over my head, and this thread makes me feel great about having a licensed pro make sure it's all safe and correct. Thank you for the confirmation, and good luck correcting some of your issues too!
Cheers, John
Every time you post another picture, it only gets worse.
Here, the ground connector, probably the single most important wire there is for safety, is completely missing. It is just incredible to me that someone would do this.
The very first thing I would do, like right now, is to cut that plug off the cable so that no one could plug it in to anything. Yes, it is that serious. Someone touching the body of your bus in wet weather could be killed instantly if there is any wire touching ground inside, and the possibility of that happening, judging from the workmanship we can see, is enormous.
If budget is a concern (a new 50 amp power cable can be a couple hundred dollars), then I would rewire what you have for 30 amp/120 volt service.
I am not being an alarmist here. I tend to be something of a code wonk, but this goes way beyond wonky. This is absolutely the worst example of bad wiring that I have ever seen posted here.
I have no issue with people finding fault in my bus..
reason I keep posting more pics is so I can then fix it correctly and not burn down the bus..
with a few local guys coming in and a few local guys around me, I will start drawing out a new wiring diagram and start replacing stuff to make it correct.. if nothing else this post should help lots of others going forward...
Get George Myers book on coach wiring; Designing Electrical Layouts for Coach Conversions
by George Myers
http://www.busnut.com/epicconversionsupport.html (http://www.busnut.com/epicconversionsupport.html)
It will be the best $40 you ever spent. George writes in plain english, easy for the layman to understand, yet highly accurate.
Just a long term recommendation here: I would consider, if time and budget allow it, a night class at a local community college on residential electricity. I know RV electrical systems are different, but it will build a conceptual foundation and common vocabulary to help understand more of these concepts. I took residential electricity in high school on a whim and I'm sure glad I did. Electrical seems to be one the least understood areas of a conversion. I know I've learned a ton on this site, and I have an engineering background that's fairly heavy in electrical.
I will second Len's suggestion on George Myers' book.
We were just in Raleigh a couple of weeks ago -- too bad we did not connect. We probably could have short-circuited (pardon the pun) a lot of this.
I can't see the markings on your shore cable, but it looks like it might be 10-gauge. Clearly it is three-wire. The cord itself is only suitable for 30-amp, 120-volt service.
Because the other end of the cord has been improperly wired, as we've discussed, it's not just a matter of lopping the plug off and installing a 30-amp, 120-volt plug. But if time and money is short, you can rewire both ends of the cord to achieve this.
The shore plug shown is the correct model for 50-amp, 120/240-volt split-phase shore service, but as others have already pointed out, the U-shaped tang for the all-important ground connection has been removed. Unless you've got that tang lying around someplace, the whole plug is now garbage and will need to be replaced. New plugs are about $15, but I recommend that you instead purchase a complete shore cable assembly with the correct plug molded onto the end. The cable will be either 6/4 or 6/3-8/1 and thus suitable for the whole 50 amps. If you want to hard-wire it as you have currently, cables are available with the plug on one end and bare wires or ring terminals on the other. Many prefer a detachable cable assembly, which more than doubles the cost but makes it easier to store and replace the cable. Plenty of material in the archives about detachable shore cable connectors and fittings.
Your adapters appear to be pre-manufactured store-bought items and are probably fine. You can check them with an ohmmeter; again, procedures are in the archives.
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com (http://ourodyssey.blogspot.com)
Sean, why do you say "this coach is legally required to have a 50 amp service"? I'm asking because I put a 30 amp service in my coach. BTW, the first thing I did when I got my coach was rip out 100% of the house wiring. It was almost as bad as this - and the guy was a high school shop teacher...renovated homes for a side business. The only thing I kept was the shore power cord - it was wired wrong inside, but it's hard to screw up a simple extension cord, Marinco twist lock on one end, 30 amp on the other end. Mind you, having said that the shore power cord in this case was indeed screwed up badly... Oh well.
Brian
I see the green and white wire in his male 50 amp plug picture on the cord before plug.
Quote from: bevans6 on July 31, 2012, 10:41:37 AM
Sean, why do you say "this coach is legally required to have a 50 amp service"?
...
NEC section 551.42 requires a 50-amp, four-wire service whenever there are six or more branch circuits, or more than two thermostatically controlled appliances, unless a "listed energy management system" is employed. Note that the requirements have not changed, but the wording of this section has been cleaned up between the 2008 and 2011 editions of the code.
This coach is equipped with a six-position panelboard capable of supporting up to 12 branch circuits. I count nine branch circuit wires but only five breakers, which might be another issue in itself depending on how they are ganged. And two of the circuits supply air conditioners, which means either a refrigerator or water heater puts it over the two thermostatically-controlled appliance limit.
Quote from: robertglines1 on July 31, 2012, 10:47:39 AM
I see the green and white wire in his male 50 amp plug picture on the cord before plug.
Yes, but if you go all the way back through the thread, you will see that the green wire is improperly being used to carry the second hot leg. Black is the first hot leg, and white appears to be properly connected as neutral, meaning the required and all-important ground connection is missing in its entirety. Besides missing the ground, carrying hot current on a green wire is dangerous because anyone working on the system would expect it to be a ground wire, not a hot wire. A receptacle inadvertently connected to this system with green going to ground would energize the frame of any appliance connected, or possibly the frame of the entire coach.
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com (http://ourodyssey.blogspot.com)
I have either four or five branch circuits, so I am OK there. But I hesitate to guess what a thermostatically controlled appliance is... fridge and hot-water heater? Air conditioner? If so, are all the 30 amp RV's with a fridge and hot water heater with 120 VAC options and a roof-top AC technically outside of code?
Brian
Green ;was looking at plug not power transferr switch. I do wish him well. I know I have made mistakes and still learn from them and try to improve every day and learn something every day. I'll go hide now. Bob
I don't buy the idea OS cable cannot be used for permanent use I saw miles of the stuff in elevator shafts in mining and commercial buildings
I asked the electrical inspector for the City of Phoenix if I could use cable wire from the breaker box to a freezer his answer was sure as long as it was under 14 ft 5 inches long and was the right gauge SOOW/UL cable where does he get that type info ? sounds like your shore line cable can only be 14.5 long lol
good luck
Quote from: luvrbus on July 31, 2012, 01:41:00 PM
I don't buy the idea OS cable cannot be used for permanent use I saw miles of the stuff in elevator shafts in mining and commercial buildings
Elevator shafts and mining operations are listed permitted uses. You need flexible cable to wire an elevator.
You will not find it inside of walls in commercial buildings. It is permitted for pendants and certain exposed uses -- that's it.
Quote
I ask the electrical inspector for the City of Phoenix if I could use cable wire from the breaker box to a freezer his answer was sure as long as it was under 14 ft 5 inches and was the right gauge where does he get that type info ?
SO or SJ can only be used in this application exposed and unsecured. Even in Phoenix, where I used to own a restaurant. If you put it inside a wall, you can't use SO or SJ -- I can show it to you in black and white.
Quote
sounds like your shore line cable can only be 14.5 long lol
Shore cables are permitted uses. You are comparing apples and oranges -- shore cables are exposed to free air, not buried inside a wall. The only other permitted use of SO/SJ cable in a motorhome is to connect between a slide-out and the main coach.
BTW, shore cables must be a minimum of 25' in length, and may be required to be longer depending on where they connect to the coach.
Look, Clifford, if someone came to you for help with their steering system, and you looked under their coach and discovered that the steering box had been substituted by one from a Toyota Corolla, would you not tell them it needed to be replaced, because it was dangerous? I'm certain you would not be persuaded by an argument that the box had worked fine for 10,000 miles already, or that Bob's sister's brother-in-law did this all the time with no problems, or that the motor vehicle inspector in Chihuahua didn't see any problem with it. You would probably not let a friend drive away from your place with something that dangerous.
The fact that extension cords are permitted to be used, and relatively safe, for your power drill or your Christmas lights doesn't mean they are safe to use to wire your whole house, just as using a kerosene heater is permitted and relatively safe on a job site but not in your living room.
There is a reason we have these codes and rules, and virtually every provision in them is founded on a history of failures and accidents that caused many injuries or deaths. SO and SJ cables are not permitted to be used in this case because they are dangerous when installed in this manner. That does not make them dangerous for use in places where they are permitted, such as elevator shafts, shore power cables, or temporary extension cords, just as an undersized steering box that could be deadly in a 25-ton motor coach would be perfectly fine in a Volkswagen.
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com (http://ourodyssey.blogspot.com)
Quote from: bevans6 on July 31, 2012, 12:13:40 PM
I have either four or five branch circuits, so I am OK there. But I hesitate to guess what a thermostatically controlled appliance is... fridge and hot-water heater? Air conditioner?
All of the above. If the appliance has a thermostat that makes it go on and off, it counts -- refrigerators, freezers, cooktops, ovens, air conditioners, electric heaters, water heaters, etc. so long as they are 120-VAC. Free-standing plug-in appliances don't count (such as a coffee maker or a toaster oven), nor do appliances that have the option of running on a different source, such as absorption refrigerators or water heaters that can run on LPG.
Quote
If so, are all the 30 amp RV's with a fridge and hot water heater with 120 VAC options and a roof-top AC technically outside of code?
Yes, BUT: there is an exception for listed energy management systems, and isolating/selector switches. Many 30-amp rigs with two air conditioners are wired so that only one can be used at a time when on shore power, with a selector switch to choose between them, so that would count as only one air conditioner, leaving room for, say, an electric water heater.
This has been code now for at least 15 years, maybe longer. I have never seen a commercially-built rig (not custom conversion) since then that did not comply when it left the factory.
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com (http://ourodyssey.blogspot.com)
That is not what I am saying Sean I just made the comment the guy said I could use SOOW cable for a 15 ft run it had to me hard wired at the compressor.
Wiring codes are getting to be about the same all over the world now but Europe and the USA for a long time were different I have saw building in Germany wired with OS cable and it hasn't been that long ago they do thing a little bit different than we do.
I know the guy has a mess on his hands and you want him to wire it safely it just pisses me off when people see a orange cable and start in about extension cords that is not always the case you can buy SO cable in rolls
You answered my question it is used for permanent use I never one time said anything about walls
The next time you are in Phoenix give me call I will fix you and the wife up at one of the Sushi restaurants we have a interest in
Sushi Brokers @
Scottsdale and Frank Loyd Wright, and the new one at 44th and Indian School I think I could even swing a free meal at Macayos those belong to our daughter in law
good luck
Quote from: luvrbus on July 31, 2012, 02:54:47 PM
... I know the guy has a mess on his hands and you want him to wire it safely it just pisses me off when people see a orange cable and start in about extension cords that is not always the case you can buy SO cable in rolls
I make no assumptions about the source of the SO and SJ I see in the pictures -- I think some others suggested it was from extension cords. My concern is that it is unsafe and not permitted in the use shown -- it makes no difference whether it came from a roll or by lopping the ends of of cords. FWIW, when I need a length of SJ, I buy an extension cord and cut the ends off -- it's way cheaper. SJ is SJ. That's how I make all my shore cords and adapters.
Quote
You answered my question it is used for permanent use I never one time said anything about walls
Well, if I said "no permanent use" without qualification, then I mis-spoke (but I don't think I said that). There are many permitted "permanent" uses for SO and SJ cables, such as pendants, hoistways, slide rooms, theatrical lighting -- the list goes on. But hard-wiring a motor coach is not one of them.
To clarify, my first biggest concern with what I have seen is potential undersizing of the conductors. My second biggest concern is lack of proper grounding from the panel back through the ATS enclosure and all the way to the pedestal. My third biggest concern is the improper color coding, nearly tied with my fourth biggest concern which is use of SJ cable for the branch circuit runs. After that comes improper fittings, lack of proper securement, etc.
Quote
The next time you are in Phoenix give me call I will fix you and the wife up at one of the Sushi restaurants we have a interest in
Sushi Brokers @ Scottsdale and Frank Loyd Wright, and the new one at 44th and Indian School I think I could even swing a free meal at Macayos those belong to our daughter in law
Clifford, I will definitely take you up on that. I certainly hope your family has better luck in the restaurant business there than we did -- three restaurants, all now out of business after sinking tons of money into them. At least we kept a bunch of folks there employed for a few years. I think I should stick to electrical wiring and computers :)
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com (http://ourodyssey.blogspot.com)
Sean, what about DLO diesel locomotive wire in a DC application from the alternator to battery bank and then to inverter? It says electric trolley cars, bus trolleys and locomotives.
Quote from: Zeroclearance on July 31, 2012, 05:47:47 PM
Sean, what about DLO diesel locomotive wire in a DC application from the alternator to battery bank and then to inverter? It says electric trolley cars, bus trolleys and locomotives.
Type DLO is my preference for heavy DC wiring, including battery cables. But note that we are talking in this thread about 120 (or 240) VAC systems. Systems below 30 volts, nominal, are subject to different standards, and a much wider range of materials is permitted.
We used DLO extensively in the telecommunications field for 48-volt battery plant wiring. Note that, generally speaking, heavy hydraulic or electric crimpers are required to affix lugs to DLO.
DLO is hard to find in the residential or commercial electrical trades, but is commonly available from telecommunications suppliers such as Graybar.
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com (http://ourodyssey.blogspot.com)
well I opened up the 50 AMP plug and found that it is only a 3 wire plug that is 8/3.. so yup I need to go buy some 4 wire and rewire the shore power plug.. I also found the wiring instructions for the ATS 100 box and it is designed for a 4 wire shore.. which is good cause I can reuse the box..
I also looked at the orange wire inside RV and it is 12 gauge wire.. 12/3 it also has some UL rating stamped into the orange but I could not read it all and some other numbers.. need to get a good flash light and see if I can read what it says ( I am curious now )
just means more work to do :) I bought the bus knowing it needed work and well I guess it needs more then I thought :)
Quote from: BRUISER on July 31, 2012, 07:05:57 PM
well I opened up the 50 AMP plug and found that it is only a 3 wire plug that is 8/3.. so yup I need to go buy some 4 wire and rewire the shore power plug..
You might find it cheaper and easier to just buy a cordset with a molded plug, such as this one:
http://www.factoryrvsurplus.com/products.php?product_id=72 (http://www.factoryrvsurplus.com/products.php?product_id=72)
I prefer these molded plugs because they are more weather-resistant than add-on ones. You will probably find the assembly is cheaper than buying 25' of 6/4 SO and a plug, too. Shop around -- I've seen them as low as $80.
Quote
I also found the wiring instructions for the ATS 100 box and it is designed for a 4 wire shore.. which is good cause I can reuse the box..
Yes, as I wrote earlier, the ATS and the main panel can both be reused. QO-series breakers are available in "twin" models that have two trip handles in one panel space, so this 6-position panel can actually support 12 circuits.
Quote
I also looked at the orange wire inside RV and it is 12 gauge wire.. 12/3 it also has some UL rating stamped into the orange but I could not read it all and some other numbers.. need to get a good flash light and see if I can read what it says ( I am curious now )
The UL number will not tell you anything -- the numbers are unique to each and every product tested by UL. The information you want is the "type marking" which will be embossed or stamped on the jacket at least every 24 inches, along with the gauge and number of conductors. It's hard to tell something like this from a photo, but from experience I can tell you it is most likely Type SJ and/or one of its derivatives (such as SJE, SJT, SJEO, SJTW, etc.), also known as "junior hard service cord" and familiar to most people as the type of cord from which heavy-duty extension cords are made.
By contrast, the larger black cables will be "hard service cord," type SO and/or a derivative such as SOOW. Neither type is permitted or safe for this application.
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com (http://ourodyssey.blogspot.com)