I hope I am wrong or the agent is wrong but the feds were at my friends place (Arrow in Phoenix) checking every bus they had talking with the agent they do not want older buses on the road period he told me they were cracking down on tour buses,entertainers and RV's and I asked him twice about buses used for RV's.
Funny thing at Arrow they red flagged a brand new H-45 only 3500 miles talk about upset my friend could have chewed 8D nails he was hot about those guys taking his 1/2 mil bus out of service for 24 hrs lol
I for one have always thought it was just a matter of time before they started fooling with buses even private because last year you would see the DOT numbers on private entertainers buses appearing more and more even on Church owned buses here too much government now days
What was the Red tag for? Emissions or Seat belts
Which Federal agency came to visit? NTSB or EPA
The Feds just shut down a bunch of bus lines on the East Coast. They said that they were doing a big investigation since a bus driven by a non-US-citizen carrying a load of non-US-citizens crashed on I-95 last year. Turns out that the driver didn't have a license and fell asleep. The news spot I heard today said that the bus companies open up and then go out of business and then reopen under different names - keep their buses plain white with no company names on them. Apparently, Charlotte NC is home to a number of these companies; they specialize in non-sched or semi-sched runs transporting non-US-citizens along I-85/I-95 corridors. (Note - none of the companies described were the active Cuban/Hispanic companies that specialize in Miami - New York runs.)
NTSB with AZ DOT the AZ DOT didn't seem impressed with NTSB when they were told to red flag the bus for 3 bolts on the seat belts they were there just did not have enough threads showing according to the NTSB guy and girl just petty stuff showing their power.
I heard they shut 2 small operators completely down here today they don't want any buses over 11 years old on the road it's not right some operators maintain the older buses and some don't.
Arrow knew it was coming they have been selling off the buses over 8 to 10 years old nothing wrong with the buses they just don't want the hassle the Feds are trying to impose the restrictions on private as they do Transits Authorities difference is the government pays for new buses for cities and don't for the private owners
Just saw a news clip where they shut down some operators PA must be "national get the operator day across the US" are you ok BK
Found this on Escapee's. Not looking good in Texas either.
http://www.rvnetwork.com/index.php?showtopic=98768 (http://www.rvnetwork.com/index.php?showtopic=98768)
Quote from: Dreamscape on May 31, 2012, 10:22:20 PM
Found this on Escapee's. Not looking good in Texas either.
http://www.rvnetwork.com/index.php?showtopic=98768 (http://www.rvnetwork.com/index.php?showtopic=98768)
Come on...the guy in TX screwed himself....two different deals....
RVer's are not affected.
I would agree.( do what you are supposed to do and stay current) Road Tech 2012 is coming in June wait to see how many trucks and Com Bus's you see being stopped. ::)
Quote from: eagle19952 on May 31, 2012, 10:36:37 PM
Quote from: Dreamscape on May 31, 2012, 10:22:20 PM
Found this on Escapee's. Not looking good in Texas either.
http://www.rvnetwork.com/index.php?showtopic=98768 (http://www.rvnetwork.com/index.php?showtopic=98768)
Come on...the guy in TX screwed himself....two different deals....
RVer's are not affected.
I also went over there and looked at it Paul, and I have to agree. The guy after being stopped should have dummied up, he shot himself in his own foot. Nine times out of ten, when they walk up "with the book in their hand" you are going to pay ... What you say to the cop is what determines what you get (sets the stage), in Texas or anywhere else.
No problems in Texas.
We just did two weeks in the Lone Star State and no one stopped us or gave us a hard time. I passed a multitude of cops, without incident. I did have a little disagreement with D.O.T. in Texas in the past on some trailer lights, and when I mentioned to him "I was not commercial" his reply was "the law is the law, commercial or otherwise, makes no diff. to me."
The ticket was $250.
As for the Escapee thing. It all kind of smacks of a cop with attitude, but that is just my take on it. All this other stuff was bound to happen.
Should not be a big surprise to anyone, when they set NAFTA in place, they opened the door for all of this crap.BCO
Quote from: eagle19952 on May 31, 2012, 10:36:37 PM
Quote from: Dreamscape on May 31, 2012, 10:22:20 PM
Found this on Escapee's. Not looking good in Texas either.
http://www.rvnetwork.com/index.php?showtopic=98768 (http://www.rvnetwork.com/index.php?showtopic=98768)
Come on...the guy in TX screwed himself....two different deals....
RVer's are not affected.
I agree, should have kept his mouth shut.
I still think it is an eye opener. Something to think about.
Would somebody who travels full time in non-profit Christian ministry (several on this list) also be considered "commercial"?
You are 100% right Don this is going to get nasty before it is over with, just wait and see our exemption status with emissions and safety rules for being a RV is slowly going away.
The Feds have already started on the construction and off road equipment with emissions laws how long before they pull the exemption for RV's It won't be long .
I can see it now cash for RV clunkers everyone gets and new RV lol
Have any looked and saw how much the value of used seated has dropped in the past year not that I would buy this bus but I looked at 2009 BCI Falcon 45 ft I could have bought for less than a 100,000 just outside the new EPA emissions std, the year model 2000 are in the 60,000 to 75,000 for the MCI 4500
Quote from: Mex-Busnut on June 01, 2012, 06:41:33 AM
Would somebody who travels full time in non-profit Christian ministry (several on this list) also be considered "commercial"?
Dr. Steve,
The way we understand it, if you make any money with/while in/traveling in/around/or any other way, then they might consider you commercial. Hence why we are a fully commercial outfit. We attempt to stay current on everything. It is a chore, but we strive to obey the law whenever we can.
FWIW
John
Quote from: Mex-Busnut on June 01, 2012, 06:41:33 AM
Would somebody who travels full time in non-profit Christian ministry (several on this list) also be considered "commercial"?
Yes. Tons of case law on this -- non-profit status does not exempt you from commercial regulations. For example, if your church owns a bus, and you use it to take 30 church members to a gathering in another state, you must have a CDL driver who is keeping a log and following hours-of-service rules, the bus must have a DOT number, and it is subject to inspection and all commercial rules.
"Ministry" can get tricky, and you might end up testing your luck with the courts. If you use the coach to transport yourself to ministry events, and/or it has the name of a ministerial organization painted or stenciled on it, most jurisdictions will consider it commercial. You might get away with claiming your ministry is a hobby, but you'd better be prepared to prove that it is entirely self-funded. If you pass the collection plate, and any of that money goes into the fuel tank, tires, or even your meals on the road, then the case is already made -- it's commercial. Note that even non-cash items count, such as campground space or food.
All that said, you seldom hear of anyone getting busted for this just driving down the road. Usually when these cases end up in court is when the vehicle has been involved in an accident.
BTW, in re the OP, the federal government has no legal standing to enforce anything with respect to private (non-commercial) vehicles. For that matter, they don't have standing regarding commercial vehicles, either, unless those vehicles cross state lines -- this is a matter of constitutional law and can not be changed administratively.
That being said, as we've discussed here before, the feds use an interesting end-run around the constitution to impose their will on the states, which is the threat of withholding federal highway funds. So if the feds want states to crack down on RV safety, for example, they can threaten this. This was exactly how the nationwide 55 MPH limit (remember that?) came about. A couple of states (Nevada comes to mind) basically chose not to enforce that law, but backed down quickly when the money actually stopped coming.
None of which means you, as a non-commercial operator, will ever be visited or stopped by a federal enforcement agency -- they simply have no jurisdiction to do so anywhere other than on federal land (e.g. National Parks, military bases, etc.). When it comes to private vehicles, they can only work through the states.
A quick caveat, lest anyone go speeding past a park ranger on the freeway: many states empower sworn federal law enforcement officers to enforce state or local laws. California, for example, does not have the concept of jurisdictional boundaries -- any peace officer can stop, arrest, or cite anyone anywhere in the state for any crime. More than one traffic scofflaw has been surprised, for example, when pulled over for speeding on the freeway by, say, the railroad police.
FWIW.
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com (http://ourodyssey.blogspot.com)
I have to ask this question Sean why does the EPA have a right to come on to private property with all their crap what is the difference between FTSB and EPA, the FTSB has shut down operators that don't run across state lines even in state only airlines ? them and the FAA ground private air craft every day
Quote from: luvrbus on June 01, 2012, 10:11:39 AM
I have to ask this question Sean why does the EPA have a right to come on to private property with all their crap what is the difference between FTSB and EPA, the FTSB has shut down operators that don't run across state lines even in state only airlines ? them and the FAA ground private air craft every day
I was talking strictly about motor vehicles, and not other matters such as aircraft, or, for that matter, environmental regulations.
The answer to your question is "it's complicated." In regards to aircraft, they are subject to federal rather than state jurisdiction, even if they never leave their home state, due to centuries-old admiralty law, which got embodied in the Constitution. This was codified into law by the Federal Aviation Act, which established that the United States Government has exclusive sovereignty over all US airspace.
With regards to environmental protection, it's a bit more complex. Suffice it to say that a tension has existed among individual and states rights versus federal oversight in this arena for a long time, and much of it was hashed out in the 70s with a series of Supreme Court decisions. But even as recently as 2005 there have been cases of states litigating against the EPA.
This is a case where even though certain matters have been reserved to the states exclusively to decide for themselves, the Supreme Court has determined over the years that some specifics have broader-reaching consequences and must be legislated at the federal level. Lots of environmental issues easily fall into this category: you would not want some state upstream of where you live on a river to decide that their residents or businesses can dump raw sewage, or chemicals, into the river, even though that portion of the river is within their state boundaries.
So the powers of the EPA have been hammered out in court over the years. Note that unlike, for example, aviation or interstate commerce, these sorts of issues are not exclusive, and states are always free to impose even stricter rules than the feds. Witness, for example, California, whose Air Resources Board (CARB) is responsible for many of the byzantine rules that motor vehicles and other engines in that state must follow.
HTH,
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com (http://ourodyssey.blogspot.com)
The short answer is that Heart of Atlanta Motel v. United States can be interpreted as saying that Congress can use the Commerce Clause of the Constitution to regulate pretty much anything. Being "interstate" has become largely irrelevant.
Cheers, John
26 bus companies shut down on the east coast
Just heard this report on NPR-
Quotehttp://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=154047857 (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=154047857)
I'm surprised it was the NTSB involved in the Arrow inspection. I thought they were primarily tasked with investigating crashes.
Here's a link to the FMSCA's (which is the agency that writes and enforces the safety regulations) press release about the east coast shutdowns:
http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/about/news/news-releases/2012/I-95-Bus-Release.aspx (http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/about/news/news-releases/2012/I-95-Bus-Release.aspx)
Bob
Arrow had a accident last year killing some people Bob could be the reason
Clifford,
That explains that.
Bob
Sent from my SCH-S720C using Tapatalk 2
This explains a lot to me. *Serious* malpractice going on there ...
"The 26 shutdown orders apply to one ticket seller, nine active bus companies, 13 companies already ordered out of service that were continuing to operate, and three companies attempting to apply for operating authority... Federal safety investigators found all of the carriers had multiple safety violations, including a continuous pattern of using drivers without valid commercial driver's licenses (CDLs) and failure to have alcohol and drug testing programs. In addition, the companies operated vehicles that had not been regularly inspected and repaired. The companies' drivers also had serious hours-of-service and driver qualification violations."
Regarding the article about the East Coast, it says, "They also have a fatal accident rate seven times higher than other types of interstate bus operators, federal accident investigators said in a report last year."
This does not sound like an unwarranted attack on responsible carriers. And does not imply anything about RV's. The original post may be about something quite different, but we will have to see what happens.
BK, are you out there?
Guy's there may be more to this. I know this along diffrent lines but I have been bombarded by phone calls today from customers saying that the EPA and CARB have moved the rules for harbor craft up from 2013 and 2014 to Dec. 2012. I have spent several hours on the phone with CARB and they have EPA guide lines for this move. The rules are published on there Web site. This is a push to do away with all businesses in the USA as I see it. the tier 3 rules are until 2014 then tier 4 comes into effect for all vehicles and and water craft using diesel engines. I am working on our tier 4 engines now.
Don
Not to move this off topic. Can a person get a voluntary DOT inspection of a private coach, just to make sure we are up to snuff? Would it be advantageous to do so?
I missed last summer but I did exactly that the two prior years and I've recommended that practice here before. It depends how confident you are in your coach. Likely if you had an inspection, found something that wasn't up to DOT standard, failed to have it fixed and later were in an accident that could be traced to that component a smart lawyer could make the case that you were liable because you knew about the problem. Ignorance really may be bliss in that situation. So if you don't plan to fix everything you find then its probably best to not go looking.
Not sure I agree with the "don't ask because you might get an answer you don't like" mentality - seems like that might specifically be what got those bus companies on the East Coast in trouble... and might shift the evil eye upon us as a hobby.
Keep your bus in tip-top shape, have a second (professional?) opinion on whether your interpretation of "tip-top" meets with current legal muster - better rule of thumb than "don't ask 'cause you don't want to know" is "take a partner on a big descision" better to have someone to share the blame with than to face the firing squad alone in my opinion. I don't like the words "wrekless" and "wonton" being attached to things I do wrong...
-T
I am not a person to go haphazardly about safety. We have replaced all our air hoses, rebuilt the air compressor, dissembled and repaired all brakes and wheel bearings, replaced all of the 30-year-old lights and wiring for the lights, etc. Tires are next on my list. (We are not yet on the road.)
What does a DOT inspection cover? How much time and money does it take? Where do they do such inspections?
Quote from: Mex-Busnut on June 01, 2012, 08:02:46 PM
What does a DOT inspection cover? How much time and money does it take? Where do they do such inspections?
A DOT inspection can be done at just about any truck shop. Just about anybody does them. They look at things like brake wear, tie rods, tires, lights, etc, etc. It wasn't as much as I was expecting, but it was good.
As for the cost. I really don't remember. It was so insignificant that I don't remember after having it done several times.
God bless,
JOhn
Any one can get the DOT inspection at any of the larger truck-stops IE: Fly J T/A, last one I had done (we had to have them done every 90 days) on a class 8 T/T was about $45.00....
Joe
JFI Truck Leasing Inc,Co
I also looked at the Escapees thread on this and a "Class B Exempt" license was mentioned as an "obvious" requirement. So I have not seen that issue discussed here.
Is that a Texas license requirement if you are domiciling in TX? Is that a generic requirement in any or all states?
Our bus is titled as a motorhome. I have asked at the DMV what kind of license I am required to have and it is a standard drivers license for automobiles.
So, what is a Class B Exempt license?
Texas requires a class B or A for RV's over 26,000 lbs no way around it depends on the weight of the vehicle and what type brakes class B exempt are for over 26,000 lbs non commercial use only fwiw I have those with the air brake endorsement all states should require a air brake endorsement for bus type RV IMO
The annual "Inspect a lot of trucks, shut a bunch down, go home and beat our chests exclaiming why a great thing we have done in the name of safety" blitz starts Tuesday and goes through Thursday. I will not be running, will stay home and get stuff done. May even work on the bus
Tell you about the Feds, I wrote them a letter telling them about a company I was working for that wanted us to go 12 hours (1 more than allowed) then sleep 2 hours (8 less than mandated) and drive the 12 hours back. They did an audit, fined them a paltry amount, then the company got even worse! When I called to tell them that, I was told to send another letter! Screw the Feds!
Jack
Let them come! After some of the accidents these yahoo drivers are causing I have no qualms with being pulled over and inspected... I know in the end We are protected but it's more of a safety issue then a political one.. If any of us is driving a bum dinger then we shouldn't be on the road as these are massive machines capable of mass loss of life on a freeway! We had 3 pullovers in our An440 only ding was I forgot tout the bulb back in a fixture I had torn off to clean and let me tell you it was a POS lol. This is a pricey hobby and if you can't honestly have"bail out" credit cards or cash on hand for repairs you ot not be the road.
Flame away...
And yes I'm typically a cheap bastard but I do have some limits LOL :)
IMO
Eric
A little different but about the power of federal agencies. A few years ago customs came to one of our rental at 5 oclock in the morning and seized 5 concrete pumps that where made over seas. The thing that was scary was when I approached them to see what was going on at my building they told me it was none of my business and to get out of there. At that point I had no rights. It will make you stop and think when you see the feds first hand.
Wayne
Like all the secret service with the hookers... now that's government in action for ya... ;D
Frankly Gentleman, You may want to keep your arrogance in check about "the bring it on" statements. I have worked and owned a shop in the aftermarket performance industry for the last 35 years and nearly saw this Multi-billion dollar industry legislated out of existence. I belong to the California BAR and have always abided by their rules and regs and inspections. I do not want some failed shop owner turned government hatchet-man, second guessing me and my decisions because somebody didn't want to pay their bill. If it wasn't for a little band of racers that had formed a little group back in the 80's called SEMA, there would not have been nearly the innovative advances in automotive safety and performance that is prevalent in car of today. Our government seems hellbent on being our parent and they want to surround us in bubble wrap and keep us working to keep them in cash flow. I for one hold the thought of policing ourselves as a more powerful method of keeping our hobby safe and efficient rather than getting the government agencies another opportunity to just kill off our hobby rather than deal with it. I have seen and experienced what havoc the government can cause when justifying their existence.......I do not mean to offend anyone, just an experience I lived for many years and lived through it.......just sharing it brought up some old bad feelings....Good Day!
Quote from: wagwar on June 02, 2012, 05:30:17 PM
I also looked at the Escapees thread on this and a "Class B Exempt" license was mentioned as an "obvious" requirement. So I have not seen that issue discussed here.
Is that a Texas license requirement if you are domiciling in TX? Is that a generic requirement in any or all states?
Our bus is titled as a motorhome. I have asked at the DMV what kind of license I am required to have and it is a standard drivers license for automobiles.
So, what is a Class B Exempt license?
Not to hijack the thread, but this link will answer your question with much detail about the Class B non commercial license in Texas. It's my adventure back in 2004, but it still is applicable today.
http://www.busnut.com/bbs/messages/233/6371.html?1087851453 (http://www.busnut.com/bbs/messages/233/6371.html?1087851453)
David Anderson
http://changingears.com/rv-sec-state-rv-license.shtml (http://changingears.com/rv-sec-state-rv-license.shtml)
SO I WOULD ASSUME...that if you are properly licensed in the state that your coach/MH is registered in, you are legally entitled to operate in all other 49 states ??
Quote from: eagle19952 on June 03, 2012, 10:14:40 PM
http://changingears.com/rv-sec-state-rv-license.shtml (http://changingears.com/rv-sec-state-rv-license.shtml)
SO I WOULD ASSUME...that if you are properly licensed in the state that your coach/MH is registered in, you are legally entitled to operate in all other 49 states ??
Yes. To be clear, driver's license reciprocity applies in all states.
The same is NOT true for the vehicle itself. You could be legal at home but over length, over width, trailer brakes, etc. in another state and subject to their rules.
I'll open another can of worms some of the working full timers are having problems with a few states if they are working in that state the state you are working in they want you to change over to that state drivers license and plates this was a hot topic at a FMCA convention.
Back in the 60's AR was was bad they made you buy plates and drivers license it was a joke you bought both at a point of entry for 20 bucks then WY made you buy what they called a over plate you kept your home state plate you put the WY plate on top another silly law.
See why our Canadian and Alaskan friends head home after a few months here lol just joking I know why they need to go back
Quote from: rusty on June 03, 2012, 07:49:32 AM
A little different but about the power of federal agencies. A few years ago customs came to one of our rental at 5 oclock in the morning and seized 5 concrete pumps that where made over seas. The thing that was scary was when I approached them to see what was going on at my building they told me it was none of my business and to get out of there. At that point I had no rights. It will make you stop and think when you see the feds first hand.
Wayne
Thanks to the Patriot Act you have even less freedom or rights now.
BCO
Quote from: luvrbus on June 04, 2012, 05:31:44 AM
I'll open another can of worms some of the working full timers are having problems with a few states if they are working in that state the state you are working in they want you to change over to that state drivers license and plates this was a hot topic at a FMCA convention.
Back in the 60's AR was was bad they made you buy plates and drivers license it was a joke you bought both at a point of entry for 20 bucks then WY made you buy what they called a over plate you kept your home state plate you put the WY plate on top another silly law.
See why our Canadian and Alaskan friends head home after a few months here lol just joking I know why they need to go back
That has been the case for a long time. When I first moved to Florida in 1965, the police would patrol company parking lots looking for out of state tags. If you were working or had a child in school you had to have Florida tags and license. There was an exception made for migrant farm workers.
If you work in CA, you need a CA driver's license and registration. It was like that even 40years ago. I would guess that the same applies regarding receiving other benefits in the state.