For those of you that followed a "searching for a 35 Footer" thread earlier this year, here's a follow up:
My 'new' 1979 MCI 5C ran great retrieving it from the previous owner in Minneapolis and driving to Seattle (1700 miles). I checked the oil frequently en route, including just 120 miles from home, and was pleased that the consumption was less than the 1200 mi./gal suggested by previous owner. About 10 days after I got home, I was about to leave for a local trip and checked the oil in preparation. It was gray and very high on the dipstick. I contacted Pacific Torque here in Seattle, and the bus has been there for the past week with no definitive answer about what's going on, other than there is water (coolant) in the oil. There's 94k on the rebuild, previous owner had no problems since he put it in (1999).
While waiting for an answer from the shop (the jury is still out on whether it was a wise choice of mechanic), have any of you had similar problems? Particularly with this engine?
On a possibly related note, the previous owner said he always just put the cruise control @ 59mph and suggested I do the same if I want the best mileage and life out of the rig. I experimented with various speeds on my return trip, occasionally running at 68-70 mph (1900-2000rpm). Any thoughts on cruising speed and whether changing driving habits from what the bus is used to could have caused a problem?
Thanks for any advice/suggestions!
I don't think your driving it at a slightly higher speed made any difference at all. The first two places I would think to look for water into the oil is probably the oil cooler and the injector sleeves. I have no idea how to diagnose either, unfortunately...
Brian
What were the engine temps coming home? just curious.
Chuck, That's probably the O-rings in one or both heads. Did it overheat at all? Those O rings get brittle (especially if they sit for a long time or if they get hot) nand fail on a fairly regular basis in the wet sleeve motors. There are others here that know more but the fact that the first thing out of the mechanics mouth wasn't the O rings makes me a little uncomfortable. There are a couple schools of thought on what needs to happen when coolant comes in contact with bearings, I and others here recommend all bearings be replaced and if you're gonna go that far most would say at least an inflame rebuild and some would say an out of frame (complete) rebuild. Run it by Clifford (luvrbus), Don Fairchild and Tom C they are kind of the go to guys here for major issues. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.
Rick
if he had no water in oil on return trip, and only discovered water when checking the oil before starting - after only 10 days since getting home.. would the engine still need bearings if it hadn't run?
am gonna get lamblasted for this question.... ;D
If they oil is gray and milky it has been run with water in the oil the oil won't turn colors without a good mixing it would still be clear on the stick and he could drain the water from the oil and you know that Chev49 lol
The shop is supposed to drop the oil pan, pressurize the cooling system and trace where the cooling is getting into the oil.
I found over the years liner o-rings don't leak much while running when the engine cools downs if they leak water runs out the air box drains his leak is probably up stairs too much racket is made about the o-rings on a 92 series if installed right they are not much trouble unless you cook one well done
The engine never heated up on the trip. The mechanic DID mention o-rings initially (and said that they are known to fail occasionally on the 6v92), but has not committed to that. And they did drop the oil pan and pressurized the system. But they still haven't found the leak as of my conversation this morning.
I've only driven the bus about 8 miles since I discovered the problem, but not sure how many miles since the problem actually started. The maximum would be about 120 but it's most likely much less. So I'm really hoping I caught it before serious damage was done.
fwiw, the engine started, sounded, and ran just fine when I drove it to the shop.
"never heated up" meaning that it stayed consistently at 180, regardless of terrain.
I never could find a cracked head with pressure testing seems like the head seals itself when it cools down but have found other leaks with pressure lol
Quote from: Geoff on May 15, 2012, 01:10:45 PM
The shop is supposed to drop the oil pan, pressurize the cooling system and trace where the cooling is getting into the oil.
I have so experience at "water in oil" I could not even begin to tell you the stories.
What I posted above is just the start. If you have some num-nuts working on your engine you are in for a huge bill. I got my "DD-2-stoke" certification from the DDA so long ago my hair was brown instead of grey, I am ready to retire and I am the last of the crew that worked at Williams and Lane in Berkeley, CA.
--Geoff
'82 RTS AZ that runs perfect.
Well Geoff, tell me some stories, then! In your experience, does having coolant in the oil necessarily lead to an in-frame rebuild? How common is it for 0-rings to fail after just 94k miles? Is a cracked head actually difficult to detect? If it's the o-rings, what kind of cost should I expect? If it's an in-frame rebuild what kind of cost should I expect? If head gasket?
Thanks!
Well Geoff, tell me some stories, then!
In your experience, does having coolant in the oil necessarily lead to an in-frame rebuild?
--Not at all. The coolant could be coming from the water pump, the o-rings seals on the aftercooler, leaky injector tube... In that case youi just fix the problem and roll in new crank and rod bearings.
How common is it for 0-rings to fail after just 94k miles?
--I doubt it is the head gasket o-rings or the clyinder liner o-rings
Is a cracked head actually difficult to detect?
--I doubt it is a cracked head unless the PO overheated it after the infame rebuild.
You never said what your engine temperature was when you were driving it, if you had a cracked head it would have been very hot.
If it's the o-rings, what kind of cost should I expect? If it's an in-frame rebuild what kind of cost should I expect? If head gasket?
--I can't give you estimates on other shops work. The main thing is to find out what is causing the coolant to get into the oil, and go from there.
--Geoff
Quote from: luvrbus on May 15, 2012, 01:04:42 PM
If they oil is gray and milky it has been run with water in the oil the oil won't turn colors without a good mixing it would still be clear on the stick and he could drain the water from the oil and you know that Chev49 lol
you are right of course.. now from his post, we find that he drove it to the shop....that is what i was wondering.. oil no water when parked, etc....
I will say that the cylinder O rings are leaking since it is doing it when cold-course you said that they pressurized the system and did not see them leaking. It is important to pressurize when the engine is cold since gaps are biggest when cold. Anyway you look at it, you're going to have to pull the engine apart to find the problem. Good Luck, TomC
After re-reading this thread I am thinking now it is the water pump with a clogged weep hole. In any case, I find it hard to believe the shop cannot put enough pressure in the cooling system to find the leak into the oil pan.
P.S. If the leak only occurs when the engine is hot that might mean a tiny crack that expands with the heat.
Thanks for the suggestions, Geoff, Tom, and others. It will be what it is, but at least I have some notion of the possibilities now.
A bit baffled and annoyed that the shop can't figure this out in a more timely manner... they have had it for 10 days and still no definitive answer. Maybe tomorrow is the day I ask them to just put it back together and I'll find someone else who knows what they're doing. (unfortunately, the towing fees to Geoff's place would be a bit much!).
Further update from shop:
Blown head gasket and water o-ring. They're checking the heads for any possible damage. Quote coming in this afternoon (gulp!). Says it will take 5 days to repair. <insert favorite expletive here>
Quote from: chuckdrum on May 17, 2012, 12:42:49 PM
Further update from shop:
Blown head gasket and water o-ring. They're checking the heads for any possible damage. Quote coming in this afternoon (gulp!). Says it will take 5 days to repair. <insert favorite expletive here>
Yes, I've seen that happen many times, but they should have had coolant pouring out that side of the block with a coolant pressure test. It is possible that who ever did the last in-frame didn't torque the heads down to 240-250 which would cause the compression gasket(s) to fail.
--Geoff
Probably the good ole twist and torque method was used and somebody forgot where they were at lol I hate that method the 250 lbs works for me on new or old head bolts
Official diagnosis and quote from Pacific Torque:
"We found coolant contamination of the engine oil due to a head gasket failure. Coolant was entering the block from a cylinder head water grommet that failed due to combustion gasses burning it out."
Total (including tax and a transmission service that is due)= $7,202
When I bought this bus, I thought, "Wow, I think he's underpriced this by about $10k!". Now I know where that $10k is! And I don't think the PO had any idea this was coming. He had the completely rebuilt engine installed when he did the conversion, he is meticulous with maintenance, and it has given him essentially zero problems over 94k miles and 13 years. S*#t happens, eh?
S*#t happens, eh?
Yup, when you depend on other people to do the job correctly. You should NOT have had this failure with the engine! But that is how it works-- somebody payed full price for an in-frame and got a half-@$# job, it is now out of warranty so you get to eat the bill. I hope this is the last of your problems.
P.S. If I were you, I would have the current shop check the torque setting on the other head on the head bolts. Cheap insurance so the other side does not do the same thing.
--Geoff
Geoff- The PO bought the completely rebuilt 6v92T from Southern Oregon Diesel and had them install it. I'm sure you guys are more familiar w them than me, but I get the impression they're a reputable outfit, yes?
According to the quote, they're overhauling both heads. If you take out the tranny servicing and the tax, the diagnosis/parts/labor for the repair comes to about $6,200. Does that seem reasonable?
just did ours last summer, same problem coolant in the oil. we diagnosed it by pulling the valve covers,running the garden hose in the rad and looked down the oil drain back holes in the bottom corners of the head with a flashlight.you will see the water running if an o-ring is gone. 300 dollars for a head set and one weekend and we had it fixed with the help of a service manual which i got off ebay for 20 dollars raymond
A Southern Oregon rebuild you were lucky I saw a 8v92 in a MCI that didn't make it 535 miles home word of advice you better have your guy check the height on the liners David's guy was not very good at doing that if it fit the hole he never checked the height we had a few words over that on a 71 series and they were terrible about leaving the head support brace off the back of the heads
Thanks, lvrbus. I think I understand what you're saying. Might I respectfully suggest occasional use of the two keys immediately to the right of the "M" on your keyboard. :)
Pacific Torque responded to my questions about needing to do both heads. Apparently one had a small crack and they are concerned that the engine overheated significantly at some point. I have noticed no overheating at all, so it's all a bit baffling still. I'm pretty diligent about scanning the gauges while driving. They farm out the machine work on the heads so that's why it will take a few days to complete the repair.
I've never found any reviews of Pacific Torque online. Anyone have any other experience with them or know of other bus mechanics in the Seattle area?
The rare times that Lvrbus uses ponctuation, it must be a typo, LOL.
JC
I was also concerned that "the engine overheated considerably at some point". The question is, was it before the last inframe, or after. Your engine may be cooked, which means new piston/liner kits as well as the heads and bearings. At this point just repairing the heads might be a temporary fix, because if the engine overheated it will have damaged the rings and it won't be long before it loses compression and starts smoking. Maybe you should call Southern Oregon Diesel and see what they can tell you about the engine when they rebuilt it. It is very possible that the PO blew a hose and overheated the engine after it was rebuilt.
--Geoff
Just returned from the shop... feeling much better about Pacific Torque. They seemed to know what they're doing. The mechanic even mentioned the liner height issue that luvrbus brought up. And he said the cylinders look good, so no further damage there. Thanks again, everyone, for educating me a bit about all this. Kinda expensive schooling, but good none the less!
Don't obsess about Clifford's punctuation. If he tells you something you can take it to the bank and he won't be worried if a few toes get stepped on along the way. I go to a lot of effort to make sure my posts look good on the screen but there usually isn't much knowledge in them. Given the choice, I'd rather have the knowledge and figure out the punctuation.
JC, my wife is always on me about that lol comes from having a great and the same secretary for 30 years I just scribble out a note and she made it look like a letter how she did that I wondered sometimes after going back and reading what I gave her to work with she would always smile and ask do you want this done in the English
I've learned to read luvbus postings, and it reminds me of modern day texting. Clifford was in the forefront of texting messages!!
Still, as the subject continues, I am still concerned about "when it happened, how it happened" that your compression gasket blew and melted the O-rings. I dodn't want you to end up with a patch job if there is more going on-- it will only cost you more later.
--Geoff
Besides Clifford being smart as he@@ and having the memory of an elephant - he possesses the kind of 'sense of humor' that only comes from BTDT / I'm here to help you and I don't give a hoot if you listen or not - there are others that don't have his sense of humor who have long since left the boards - be kind to him - he's been darn sure kind to us - FWIW
Quote from: niles500 on May 18, 2012, 08:46:59 PM
Besides Clifford being smart as he@@ and having the memory of an elephant - he possesses the kind of 'sense of humor' that only comes from BTDT / I'm here to help you and I don't give a hoot if you listen or not - there are others that don't have his sense of humor who have long since left the boards - be kind to him - he's been darn sure kind to us - FWIW
I'll second that!
Have fun !
Eric
I'll third that!
Tom Caffrey
Well I'll fourth & fifth that too! (hey I'm big enough to admit he's edumacted me greatly with his great posts, more than once!)
;D BK ;D
I'll fifth it. Cliff (luvrbus) is a guru. Please don't bother him about punctuation. He
Might get sad and stop posting lol! And we would all cry a river. I personally like that he types that way. I don't even have to read who the poster is, as soon as I start reading it I know it's cliff and I start paying attention lol :-)
Sent from iPhone via Tapatalk
Punctuation is relatively new. It only started being used in English around the 15th Century, so it all depends on how old you are.
Quote from: Lin on May 20, 2012, 07:24:26 PM
Punctuation is relatively new. It only started being used in English around the 15th Century, so it all depends on how old you are.
ouch....................
Quote from: luvrbus on May 17, 2012, 10:54:16 PM
A Southern Oregon rebuild you were lucky I saw a 8v92 in a MCI that didn't make it 535 miles home word of advice you better have your guy check the height on the liners David's guy was not very good at doing that if it fit the hole he never checked the height we had a few words over that on a 71 series and they were terrible about leaving the head support brace off the back of the heads
I have spent a scant hour talking with David, AKA "Southern Oregon Diesel". And that was over three visits. I have spent a couple hours talking to Bus Folk customers in his shop and at rallies. My impression at the start was that the guy had a sense of humor, knew DD and Cat and Cummings cause he was a service center. And no, I didn't press for certification and I can't give a single soul cred for being a D mech of any stripe.. And he seemed exceedingly honest BUT didn't suffer FOOLS well or easily or lightly. Impressions.
David, though busy as any businessman you might imagine, took the time to show me a couple of truly dismal wrecks of buses he had parked in his front lot next to I5 in Roseburg. One had a steering box so out of whack the the wheel turned a full 120 degrees back and forth without ever touching a gear tooth to a gear tooth. David said "we refer to that in the trade as "VAGUE" steering". He was letting the poor unfortunates that owned those buses leave them there in the hopes that someone with the confidence to repair them would pay some paltry fee to take them home as a project. I doubt that David even knew the Bus Knuts that owned them. Another, he shared with me, had lost the cam drive gear and in exaggerated mock seriousness and rolling his eyes he said "probably only needs a few valves". I laughed a lot with David that late evening summer day. He came out to intro himself to the two guys that were looking at the spent Prevo at the corner of his lot. Seems the boat manufacturer storage lot that lives next door had been burgled more than enuf and David just wanted to say "Hey". Just didn't seem to be the "RIP OFF" type.
I visited with one of his customers a week later. He had been there for 15 days on a three day repair. But, he, the customer, was cheerful. I was considering some way to feel the poor guys forehead when he explained himself. He said "when they got into the job they discovered other things wrong that you couldn't tell untill they got the engine opened up". Then, he went on, "the manufacturer sent the wrong part and David showed us all the paper work where they ordered the correct part but what came in had the wrong part numbers and that cost us more than a weeks time in shipping and David upgraded the shipping out of his pocket and the manufacturer still sent it "slow freight". David showed us his letter demanding payment for shipping and their agreement and apology." He said that shXX happens in the world and that this experience was a comedy of errors from the start but that David was not at fault and had let them stay in their bus for free the entire time and had pushed them into a bay after the first night. I think that gentleman was a loyal customer for life. Anothe Knut and his wife were "living" in one of his aux shops getting an out of frame on a 8V71. They had been there more than a month. They started out deciding on a re-man and had David procure and do the R&R. They chose the R-Man source. First engine that came to replace the 8V71 was a Cummins. Manufacturer has it shipped back to him and sends a 8V71 with apologies. Next engine was the wrong engine...theirs was a N and the factory sent a "T". Back to the factory and faith was lost in the Re-Man route. David was doing a rebuild, letting them stay for free and his price for the job was less than his original bid. That Knut shared that he thought David felt sorry for their bad luck and the owner had made calls and verified everything as he thought it suspicious that there could be that much bad luck. Free lodging, concern about them thinking the wrong thing and lowering his quote....had to be crooked, right?
David shared with me that he quit taking calls from Bus Knuts as they had aggravated him no end. His part of the story was that people call him from the east coast and parts unknown to ask him questions about DD engines and after he tells them what the problem might be they contradict him and argue. He said "I am a businessman and my time is valuable to me and that group seems to have more than it's share of idiots with phones and a bus conversion and the gall to contradict". He washed his hands of it. Couldn't have been the "hole" story as he has always taken my calls over the years and only his sectary asks "who may I say is calling".
NOW I have heard this story about the 535 MILE LIVED overhaul before. I thought it stunk then and I still think it stinks....emphasis on the "thought" part. The story goes that Mr. X , Clifford named him but I have forgotten and won't id him anyway. (Mr. X? Your views and recollections?) Mr. X contracted with SOD to do an out-of-frame and I hear that can run $13K. SOD completed the overhaul, was paid, and the customer left. A short jaunt down the road the engine failed catastrophically...rod, crank, ???? Bus gets towed to a shop. They confirm that the engine is lunched. I never heard what was the exact cause of the failure but there has always been the inferrence, to me, that SOD was remiss at somthing and the destroyed engine was the result. David agreed to repeat the overhaul and pay for accomodations and reasonable expenses. That could have been thousands of dollars but I don't know. The owner, Mr. X, decides that he doesn't want David to do the overhaul, afer all and demands a Re-Man from a reputable dealer. David agrees though it will set him back much further than if he does the overhaul in house. So he installs the "new engine" and gets bad mouthed ever since.
Now here are my observations on this unfortunate tale. Mr. X was not an idiot and was bus savy and as an educated consumer he simply would NOT drop his $13K into the lap of an unknown shop. He had to have called around and checked out SOD and I can assume he got David coming under the tongue of good report. Somebody liked him or Mr. X just threw himself on the mercy of???? Stuff happens and even if David's Mech screwed the pooch and botched the job...well, stuff happens.
David offered to compensate, and most shops wouldn't and a court would not have supported a claim unless negligence could be proven, and doing that will vastly exceed your cost of paying your own Motel bill. He did pay for the lodging and food costs for the time it took to do the R&R and ship the engine. If it could be seen that my guy was responsible I would pay your expenses...only fair that I have some skin in the game.
Now, the contract was for an in house overhaul and not a spendy Re-Man. The owner insisted on a Re-Man because he said he lost faith in SOD's ability to perform.. Were it me and he was as obnoxious as has previously been inferred, I would have thrown him and his bus out in the street. But David isn't me and I ain't him. David caved and paid for everything Plus.
Now that all is said and done, David still enjoys being maligned as something less than honest and well intentioned. And, I don't think he deserves that. Mr. X got advice and I haven't heard anything about the "IDIOT THAT SENT ME THERE". He had expenses paid that he wasn't clearly entitled to....but I would hope... He got a Re-Man with a nationwide warranty that must be worth something and that was due to the generosity of SOD in placating an unfortunate irate customer. You know...."Good Will". This sounds like the sharp stick in the eye.
I never talked with David about this matter. All that I know I have gleaned from the posts of Clifford on the matter and those were inspired by a post i made that said "I know David a very little and he seems a good guy. I have asked others(not Clifford) and they say that SOD gets mixed reviews" and I don't really know all that that might mean. What I do know is that David told me "I won't ever work on another bus that isn't owned by someone I personally know. Commercial customers understand this business but bus owners can often be such jerks that it isn't worth the heartburn". I do seed his friends and acquaintances buses in there from time to time. he has many friends as he is very active in community affairs and projects as a volunteer and member of Rotary like orgs. He is also a past Pres of our NW FMC Bus org that puts on the
Rickreal Bus-in in June. He is easy to find, and easy to talk to and will give a cripple like me a ride anywhere in his souped up golf cart. No shop talk..... just "faster horses, younger women and older whiskey" sort of chatter.
David would probably have a difficult time remembering me. I can't imagine him considering me his friend. But, from what I have personally seen....were I to pay thousands of dollars for engine work that failed? I would thank my lucky stars if that happened in a shop where David was making the decisions. Same goes For Choo Choo.
I also know a guy that was traveling thru Palm Springs late on Christmas eve many years ago and his air compressor failed. He got on the forum and asked for advice. What he got was Mr. and Mrs, Clifford dropping off the compressor he needed and installing it for him. (he is a clutz ;D) That sent him on his way. Clifford lives near Phoenix and Palm springs is 100 plus miles distant. Christmas eve! And I have been hearing stories like that about Clifford ever since and I believe most of them. But even a small percentage would be more than enuf to endear the man and his wife to all of us. If it isn't possible to be objective or say anything that isn't a compliment....then what are complements actually worth?
Looks like David doubled or tripled his SOD floor space in the past few years. He has a good rep with somebody, that's for sure. No scarcity of independent D facilities in the area and the DD Dealer and Cummins coral is only 60 miles north of him. And this being a depression and all.
John
Nice JohnED glad to see you but I am not going to waste time responding David did make good on the engine for Howard fwiw he never made good the money he cost me and the people here have a right to know he is not Snow White
We still talk and have for 20 years he is out of the bus gig now he owns a 5th wheel just so you know dig deep and you will find out why he doesn't do much bus work
Hi John! I know you been here all along lurking in the shadows like the rest of us lol, But welcome back anywho. :)
V.
John Ed it is my distinct joy to unfriend/ignore you yet again.I left this board for close to a year because of your BS and I won't do it again.
I thought this thread was about "chuckdrum"s water in the oil problems. There seems to be a lot of skeletons in the closet since I gave up on this board when it went hi-tech a few years ago.
--Geoff
How about we leave the fighting to the ring, I for one am a little disappointed as to how this thread has gone.
Wow... I hadn't check this thread for a few days cuz I figured it was pretty well done; obviously it inadvertently stirred up some s#@^ out there! BUT, to bring it back to my original problem...
I'm still curious as to what causes a head gasket to blow in a DD that
-is 13 years old
-has only had one previous owner since the rebuild and has never overheated
- only has 94k miles on it
If it was a faulty rebuild for some reason (incorrect torquing or whatever), would it really take this long to manifest itself? And on the other side of the coin, does it make any sense for such a "young" 6v92T to have such a problem?
What does age have to do with engine failure 13 years old is young lol 90,000 miles is roughly 2000 hrs on 10,000 hr engine you see the old DD engines 30 + years old never had a wrench on it but they are low hrs also 3 to 5000 hrs
good luck
Quote from: chuckdrum on May 22, 2012, 10:45:07 PM
Wow... I hadn't check this thread for a few days cuz I figured it was pretty well done; obviously it inadvertently stirred up some s#@^ out there! BUT, to bring it back to my original problem...
I'm still curious as to what causes a head gasket to blow in a DD that
-is 13 years old
-has only had one previous owner since the rebuild and has never overheated
- only has 94k miles on it
If it was a faulty rebuild for some reason (incorrect torquing or whatever), would it really take this long to manifest itself? And on the other side of the coin, does it make any sense for such a "young" 6v92T to have such a problem?
If the liner heights are good then I would suspect the head torque was not correct. I have also seen this happen when people tried to rebuild their DD 2-stroke by just putting new rings on the old pistons and reusing the liners. For some reason the liners distort from new compression heat and blow the compression gaskets (that is with new compression gaskets).
--Geoff
Chuck, I have heard it said more than once that one of the worst things we can do to our buses is not use them. There have been numerous mentions of brittleness and failure of the o-rings due to the motors not being used for long periods of time.
You can have tires with 500 miles on them but if they are 15 years old they are deemed unsafe due to age. I think that it may matter more how much this thing has been driven since the rebuild rather then how many miles ago it was rebuilt.
Rick
My concern is that he said one of the heads was cracked if i read correctly. What damage has been done to the rest of the engine. I'm like Geoff on this I don't like what I'm reading about this.
not to cause un do concern but these heads don't crack until above 212 deg.'s this engine has been hot some where along the line.
Don
Quote from: van on May 22, 2012, 11:55:28 AM
Hi John! I know you been here all along lurking in the shadows like the rest of us lol, But welcome back anywho. :)
V.
Van,
I don't think I visited three time over the year(?) I was gone. Not a lurker, thouigh that isn't a bad thing in any way. Glad to hear from you as well.
Your Knut bud,
John
Quote from: Don Fairchild on May 23, 2012, 08:27:32 PM
My concern is that he said one of the heads was cracked if i read correctly. What damage has been done to the rest of the engine. I'm like Geoff on this I don't like what I'm reading about this.
not to cause un do concern but these heads don't crack until above 212 deg.'s this engine has been hot some where along the line.
Don
Only in case you didn't know who Don Fairchild is..... his is the last word. My question is could this engine been hot and cracked it's heads and STILL ran a good distance without getting water in the oil? Did the engine get hot on the ride home and the over-temp shut down failed to protect the engine? Is the temp monitoring system not working correctly and giving false readings? I hope you can get Don involved in your problem as that carries a guarantee that while you might not like what you hear you will hear the unvarnished truth.
I think you need to know what ALL is wrong and how to check for that. heads look like they are coming off and bearings will be "spun" in but I am repeating what was said. I don't think anybody said that the engine should not have been run to the shop....maybe they are being polite. I might have run it to the shop but I would have changed the oil in it, not worrying about anything other that 40wt and wasted no time in the trip. Oil with water in it will rust the innards.
I hope you post what you find out and what Don says as this progresses.
Good luck,
John
Don, you never know he needs to run the serial number on the engine there was some Greenies with the nice silver paint in that part of the world lol
I have a friend that cracked a head on his MCI he didn't get all the air out, it never got hot only took a few seconds with no water on that cylinder to crack the head rest of the engine looked great he now has a Fairchild head off Van's old engine hope you did a good job lol
good luck
Quote from: Geoff on May 22, 2012, 06:36:38 PM
I thought this thread was about "chuckdrum"s water in the oil problems. There seems to be a lot of skeletons in the closet since I gave up on this board when it went hi-tech a few years ago.
--Geoff
Geoff,
I didn't know you went missing. I did so myself at about the same time. From what I remember you were very helpful to numerous Knuts and I and others owe you a debt for your service. Glad that you are back.
When chusk's engine was found to have a cracked head a member said that if Southern Oregon Diesel (SOD) did the overhaul then the rest of the engine was suspect....or words to that effect. As in cases a year ago that comment was lobed into the thread like a grenade and when it was questioned the poster simply declared he was thru with the post and wouldn't make any further comment. I know David, SOD owner, only slightly but he has helped many bus owners i am aware of, is active in the bus owners clubs and is active in community affairs as a member in Rotary like organizations. I can't see how a shop that sold an overhauled engine can be held liable for overheating damage that must have happened after the engine was installed and the bus left the shop. As Don said "something isn't right" with the story.
Now I am not the neighborhood cop or the community conscience but I am ethical. Were you to be maligned falsely I would most likely rebut that cl;aim if I had any ifo that it was unwarranted. Or anyone else I know. Lots of personalities around here, it isn't just an enclave of corp memories and professional advice, and those personalities sometimes get caught crosswise. Good for them and I feel they can deal with their stuff as adults. Or children, if they choose. Its the behind the back stuff with no supportive evidence that bothers me. And anyone that champions back biting and character assassination doesn't have an opinion I would place much faith in. Sycophants! This exact topic was gone thru last year by myself and all the other principle players and it has once again been brought up with the same results. As you said, "there seems to be a lot of skeletons..." There are and this is only one of them.
Welcome back and just ignore the occasional load of crap....the place does a lot of good and it is better with your professional contribution.
John
those guys in roseburg have fixed lots of stuff right..
course if you want a good trans/rear end rebuild have doug at ratco do it...
Moderators when exactly are you gonna tell John Ed to shut up, fly right or leave. The obvious potshots he's taking at Clifford should not be tolerated and you all know it. How many good folks who are actually trying to help people are just gonna get sick of this crap and leave?
Take a little time, go back through the archives and you'll see that this behavior is spread, inflamed and encouraged by him.
This thread is not about vendetta's and personal hearsay, it's about a guy who wants advice and friends trying to give the best advice they can. But then there's John Ed, who just can't get his hands around the fact that Clifford is more right, more consistently, than anyone else here so he has to take potshots at the guy. Go back through the threads and see how many people Clifford has helped and as soon as John Ed has helped more I'll defend him as well
If there's another way to gripe that isn't so public let me know what it is as I would never have posted this here because it's exactly what he wants. A flamefest so he can stand back at the end and say "why is everyone so mad?"
Rick
Hi Rick,
At the bottom right corner of every post, in blue letters, are the words "report to moderator". Perhaps you could click on that to report your concerns. I too dislike JohnEd's criticism of luvrbus, who has taught me so much just by reading his posts, but fanning the flames here probably serves no purpose.
Good luck with getting this criticism stopped, Sam
You are 100% right Chev49 they has done a lot of work for the Eagle and MCI people some love SOD some don't go back and people should hear both sides and make their own decisions
It just works that way the more you grow a business the more problems that's the nature of the beast
Rick don't worry about me and JohnEd the hunt for the Deutz Diesel 2 stroke he started a year ago has taken a toll, I am lucky in some ways I have 4 and 6 year granddaughters at home and JohnEd here who could ask for more
At this point, this is a highly theoretic thread. I appreciate what everyone is trying to do, but there is no definitive answer to be had. Of course we all appreciate Clifford's knowledge, but there is no reason to be offended on his behalf. I would not consider him thin skinned, he has a sense of humor, and he is quite capable of taking care of himself. I also understand John's expression of trust and loyalty for that particular shop. It seems that several here are being a bit hypersensitive. I agree that it would be better to PM someone or contact the moderator directly rather than turn the thread personally contentious. Chill out dudes.
Hey Don, do you still work on buses?
Quote from: Geoff on May 22, 2012, 06:36:38 PM
I thought this thread was about "chuckdrum"s water in the oil problems.
--Geoff
Very well said. Hey folks, everyone has been very respectful of each other, helpful to each other, and enjoyed themselves here lately. That is how it should be. Let's not restart old arguments and drama.
This thread has some very useful information in it. It would be a shame to lock it down.
As has been said. If anyone sees a problem, report it. We'll get there as fast as we can. You may not like the answer, but you will get one. ;)
There is also the ignore button. Use it if you need to, that's why we have it. I can't use it, but have had the desire to on a few occasions! ;D
Play nice and have fun, life is short. 8)
Paul
Lin, I am not working on buses at this time, I am in the middle of some bigger engines and am traveling in between so I don't feel I could do right by an owner and Take a year to do any work like you let me have on yours. I have been trying to post a couple of pic's to the board but cant seam to figure out how.
Clifford I hear what you are saying but he drove this bus some distance home, if it had an air lock don't you think it would cause other damage as well.
inquiring minds would like to know.
Don
I remember losing my mill to over heating bring mine home, was not a pleasant experience . Through it all I have always been given good advice here, so this is a good opportunity to do my once yearly thanks to all who have helped out, Thanks Guys, fer putting up with my growing pains, much Love & respect to you all!
All the Best!
Van the Man
Quote from: van on May 24, 2012, 09:25:09 AM
much Love & respect to you all!
All the Best!
Van the Man
I don't recall you ever uttering a single discordant word. Now, I haven't been around for a year so maybe you have picked up some bad habits.....not likely. :D
Thanks for the positive thoughts.....you have always had lots of them.
John
If overheating is a possible cause, at what temps (water temps) should we be concerned? Is 200 a safe number, at what temp does damage start to occur? Or should we be more concerned with EGT temps? Someone once told me that I should be more concerned with EGT temps than water temps.
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4 stroke diesels with tuners tend to be the ones running high EGT's. Two strokes don't seem to run the exhaust very hot at all. I think 900 degrees is about as hot as they get. Dry block Detroits like 8V71's are less sensitive to water temp overheating than wet block V-92 engines which have O-rings to seal the liners. They all have rubber O-rings in the head - block surface and they will all crack cylinder heads. I personally think 200 is safe but watchable, and 220 is pull over and see what's going on, for V-71 engines. I have no thoughts on V-92's.
Brian
Quote from: bevans6 on May 27, 2012, 02:01:35 PM
4 stroke diesels with tuners tend to be the ones running high EGT's. Two strokes don't seem to run the exhaust very hot at all. I think 900 degrees is about as hot as they get. Dry block Detroits like 8V71's are less sensitive to water temp overheating than wet block V-92 engines which have O-rings to seal the liners. They all have rubber O-rings in the head - block surface and they will all crack cylinder heads. I personally think 200 is safe but watchable, and 220 is pull over and see what's going on, for V-71 engines. I have no thoughts on V-92's.
Brian
I have to add to this-- 220 on an 8V71 is damaged engine. Never go over 200 to play it safe. The 92 series is a little more forgiving, you can get it up to 210 before you pull over. I have a working overheat 210F shut-down on my RTS 6V92TA and it has shut me down more than once, and I never had engine damage thanks to it. Since then I have a radiator water spraying system that keeps me cool on the long grades while towing.
Watch those gauges!!
--Geoff