Ok so I'm taking this this weekend and fixing the bus.. Ripping out the rot and going to town... I've been researching power from the cummins and I see I can pump 400hp out of this monster pretty darn cheap...but the Trans can't do it :( I remember the mention of a 2000 series Trans could do the job.. I'm attacking this head on folks with 9/1/12 being shakedown....the checkbooks open and I have a whole Lotta work to do.. Now the clincher: I want a mechanical Trans not electronic, does such a beast exist? Can I beef up this one?
1991 Ward Senator
Crane Carrier chassis
5.9 w/AT545
1 obsessed driver and passenger with too much time on our hands
Have fun !
Eric
Eric, I've been told that the simple addition of a "throttle" position transducer makes the "World" transmissions (6-speed, lockup, double overdrive) work just fine with a mechanical engine. That's the way that I think I'll go -- it would be wonderful to have the benefits of that transmission.
The 5.9 is used in Dodge pickups. A lot of pickup guys bomb their engines, but you have to be sure to get a pyro gauge if you do this. The mechanical 5.9 takes a bit more work to bomb than the electronic version. With the electronic version one can get a little electronic box that increases the power output of the engine. You still need to do things like replace the exhaust with a free flowing version.
Leave it alone would be my answer good little engines till you start playing with the hp the torque doesn't go up that much as been told to me over the years hp is a number torque you feel.
I have owned the 5.9 in Case equipment since 1984 when they first were born they were 160 hp 400 lbs of torque @ 1600 rpm never many problems just fuel pumps
You're gonna kill that 5.9 if you run it at that rating. Perhaps you should consider it's bigger brother the "C" series. You'll already be at 350 HP, That can easily be bumped up without melting it down. You might find an engine/trans combo. An MT would work with either engine.
Well dang if that doesn't rain on my parade! So is there any bump ups I can safely do? I was going to add an intercooler anyhow. It goes down the road great I just want to step on the pedal a bit more in mountains and push a bit more soot..And we're towing our wagon as well..if it can't be done it can't be done...but I was really hoping lol ;D
Have fun !
Eric
Or...how about just find the biggest in line 6 cylinder diesel engine and tranny that will physically fit into the bus? Lots of choices from DD, Cat, Cummins, etc.. Might also be cheaper in the long run. FWIW....we found that a DD 8V92TI and a RTO 14510 tranny will actually fit into a late 1960s Ford F600 shorty 6 window school bus. You might be amazed to find out what will physically fit into your Bus Conversion project. HB of CJ (old coot) (you could do burnouts) :) :) :)
I say leave it alone as well. Even if you went to the C series, you'd need a 643 transmission, if you dont want electronic. I wouldnt do electronic for anything personally. The 643 is only good for 250hp though, which is what mine is. I guess I dont see the big thrill with hp and I've driven a lot of big hp.
The upside to the MT would be the lockup converter. You could better manage the increased engine heat from a moderate power boost. His planned use of a CAC will definitely help. The shift points can be set to keep the engine just above peak torque and improve the drivability. I think that 400HP is unreasonable for this type of application.
Mechanically injected 5.9 liter can and will go up to 800hp-but not suitable for bus service. The electronically controlled 6.7 liter has an RV rating of 360hp and 800lb/ft torque-of which you'd have to run the 3000 series Allison. The 2000 series is good up to 660lb/ft torque which would be around the 300hp range for the 6.7 liter.
The mechanical choices for the 5.9 liter, would put the maximum output of the engine around 250hp and 660lb/ft torque. The MT643 4spd Allison has a lockup torque converter, but is only a 4spd with 4th being direct-no overdrive. Both the 2000 and 3000 series World Allison can be used with a mechanically controlled engine with a throttle position modulator. With the world transmission having a .75 and .65 overdrive, I would seriously consider those transmissions.
If you want a mechanical engine, I'd use the Cummins 8.3C model, or L10 for more power. Even the L10 was only rated to 330hp and 930lb/ft torque. When you go electronic, the horsepower ratings really go up.
I used a HT740 because the 4000 series transmission would have been twice the money to install-and with my 3.55 gearing don't really need overdrive.
Good Luck, TomC
Quote from: TomC on May 11, 2012, 10:45:15 PM(snip) If you want a mechanical engine, I'd use the Cummins 8.3C model, or L10 for more power.
Tom, is the Cummins 8.3C (mechanical) engine different in pusher and front-engine use? (I.e., if I'm looking to buy an engine, do I have to specify a "pusher" engine?) Thanks, BH
Both the same Bruce but try and find a American made if you go with 8.3 IMO the C9 Cat is the better engine
Quote from: luvrbus on May 12, 2012, 06:03:16 AMBoth the same Bruce but try and find a American made if you go with 8.3 IMO the C9 Cat is the better engine
Thanks, that's good to know. I've had a lot of people recommend the 8.3 and the C9, it looks as if the C9 will be more plentiful around here (most of the Thomas schoolies and transits were "anything but" Cummins and most of the school districts and local transit agencies bought Thomas buses). Also, is there a "pusher" rear axle?
I ask because it looks as is my best way forward is to remove my current engine/transmission/axle and graft in a N American pusher powertrain. (Briefly, the reasons for this is that the current engine isn't up to the job any more, the transmission is limited on the torque/hp it will carry, and the rear axle is a "compound" axle that's a 5.3 ratio and a design that reverses the drive direction. Also, there are no gearing options for the current axle, and it is bulky and heavy. So, there's basically no way to upgrade any part of the system without replacing it all.)
I'm still looking at possibilities and options, that's why I'm asking. Thanks, BH
While the Cat C9 is a great engine (if older then 2007), it is only an electronic engine up to 350hp and 1050lb/ft torque. It wasn't used anywhere as much as the Cummins engines, and just because it is a Caterpillar-will cost more to work on.
Mechanical engines that are available-small block-Cummins 5.9B, International 7.3liter, International 360. Medium block-Cummins 8.3C; Caterpillar 3116 (like a 4 stroke version of the 6-71-basically the same type of injection), 3208 (which can be a good engine if it is steel sleeved with turbo); International DTA466 (great engine). Big block engines-Cummins L10, NTC855, VTA903 (which is still being made for Bradley tank), Caterpillar 3306, 3406, 1693 (giant obsolete engine).
Now Tom the C9 was used in a lot of Cat equipment with different hp setting and other manufactures of equipment 20,000 to 25,000 hrs on mine trouble free in mud,water,dirt,flyash you name it and depending on the application you could go over 350 hp I had some loaders Cat turn up the C9 to 425 hp fwiw
Cummins could never make in the equipment world as hard they tried it takes a real man for that world l I had a 8.3 that gave me so much grief I had Bomag replace it with 6v92
Quote from: ekhedge on May 11, 2012, 03:35:54 AM
Ok so I'm taking this this weekend and fixing the bus.. Ripping out the rot and going to town... I've been researching power from the cummins and I see I can pump 400hp out of this monster pretty darn cheap...but the Trans can't do it :( I remember the mention of a 2000 series Trans could do the job.. I'm attacking this head on folks with 9/1/12 being shakedown....the checkbooks open and I have a whole Lotta work to do.. Now the clincher: I want a mechanical Trans not electronic, does such a beast exist? Can I beef up this one?
1991 Ward Senator
Crane Carrier chassis
5.9 w/AT545
1 obsessed driver and passenger with too much time on our hands
Have fun !
Eric
I DO have fun! But it is in my 350HP RTS bus conversion with 4:11 gears that give 80 MPH. Personally, I think you bought the wrong bus. A 5.9 isn't going to get the power you want, bail out now and cut your losses. Once you commit to a bus the price of conversion doesn't get any cheaper, so start out with a good platform that will give you the power you want from the begining.
--Geoff
'82 RTS AZ
I have to agree with Geoff here. You're putting a lot of time and money into repairing rusty rotted steel on a bus that doesn't even have a power train you like. I would suggest looking for a better bus that has the power you want. The problem with a lot of schoolies is they don't have much power as they are designed mostly for city use with stops all the time.
You know, ekhedge, that this site is primarily of inter-city buses, though many started with a skoolie (& some of us are still there), so there might be a bias here. But then again, as you know, there's a lot of knowledge here.
If you got the time and money--do it, but a rust free rear-engined school bus with a dt466 or cummins 8.3, and an mt643 transmission can be had for less than $5,000, and probably around $3000.
Well all thanks for the input! In our time constraint we are moving forward with this for now.... Wife already Ok'd saving a few years and buying something later model :) we are fans of late 90's Prevost or save up for a D series MCI we just need to get something on the road ASAP ! When we aren't moving we don't make money!
Thanks Again!
Have fun !
Eric
Speaking of Bomag.... asphalt rollers that is... which i have worked on many. The little self contained cooling diesel engines should make a great engine for a generator... My neighbor bought several of them for a large contract he had.
Sorry.. a bit off topic
i do like my 3208t cat boat anchor engine...
Eric, with the small cummins engines you have to build it to a cpl# going from one hp to another will require a lot of parts like head pistons camshaft injectors and pump. my cpl book is only up to 2004 so it wont cover a lot of engines. If you know someone in a pick up truck wreaking Yard you could go over and have them look up what year a 250 or 300 hp engine came out in the dodge trucks and find that engine. I know that most of the 97's were 215 hp. If you find a navy marine engine at 450 hp understand it is not a 5.9 They have there own blocks crankshafts and heads cast to there spec's and put together by shop other than cummins. these engines are bored and stroked and run real good but you may not be able to keep it cool in a bus. They use the ocean and will still have problems when in the Arabian gulf during the summer.
Hope this helps
Don
The 5.9 / 6.7 ISB can make quite a bit of reliable power, just not at commercial duty cycle (big difference between reliable and high duty cycle)
A mechanical 5.9 with P7100 pump can make upwards of 400 hp, quite reliably. You want towing oriented compound turbos and a large intercooler, with freeflow intake (which any bus already has). This will give you a lean burn and low EGTs. Pickup guys only want a burst of power, so their version of a 400hp engine would only last a couple days in a bus.
A late 6.7 with no emissions can make 400hp without a hint of sweat. They make 360hp, factory stock, choked up with EGR and DPF. Take those off and you're pretty much at 400hp factory stock.
The thing to keep in mind with a 400hp 5.9 is that you can't always use 400hp. Restrict yourself to no more than 250hp on a continuous basis and use 400hp only for passing and hill climbs. When OEMs tune a modern coach for 400hp, they're designed to run at that power all day long, that's why it takes much more than 5.9/6.7L displacement.
Remember, 5.9s carry loaded, 36,000lbs school buses all over the country...
Just to follow up what I said with an example, here's a very good towing setup on a F350 with 6.7 Cummins swap:
http://powerstrokearmy.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17411 (http://powerstrokearmy.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17411)
He's aiming for a reliable 600hp, with a GVW of roughly 25,000lbs combines. Tone that down to 400hp, and I don't doubt for one second it can't drag a 30,000lbs bus around for a long time. Now, if you have a 50,000lbs 45', that's another story...
Work any small engine outside it's boundaries they don't last Davenport and his son have some heavy duty hauling stuff he runs KW's because he is a KW dealer and can only get the MX Pac engine or Cummins so he runs the 14L Series 60 he can buy it he sets those at 700+ hp and dragging 16+ axles with 140 tons + loaded he shucks one every 125,000 to 150,000 miles.
When I was there for a visit he had bought 3 new FreightLiners just to get the DD15 engine he won't use a Freightliner only KW trucks sorry TomC moral of the story if they don't have enough @$# to start with none will last as Roy points out