Friends, Bus Nuts, Conversionmen,
We've just posted our intentions on a new project (the "Silverliner") here:
http://www.busconversions.com/bbs/index.php?topic=23466.0 (http://www.busconversions.com/bbs/index.php?topic=23466.0)
We're about to spend thousands of dollars acquiring the building supplies, so before we do, we'd love your critical feedback on our plans.
THANKS!!
Michael & Gigi
I'm the bottom of the bucket as far as designs go , however your window a/c won't do... And the fridge .. My wife and I fulltime and have an 18 cubic foot fridge....2 adults and the munchkins your going to be stopping every other day to resupply... Amusing at first but it'll get old mighty fast... Also whatever a/c you get I would go with something equipped with a soft start system so your little genny doesn't keel over ;) and I also missed anything about insulation....what are your plans there?
Great looking 5C. Good find.
Good luck with your project!
JC
Looks like a great bus, good find! I full timed in a 35" 5c with 2 people. We had a 12 cu ft apartment size fridge and it was adequit but for 2 people! Toss in 2 kids, no way. I had experience with an RV refrigerator and knew they were too small.
Since you have a bit of time, try to experiment, partition off your fridge at home and see how much space you can live with for how many days, comfortably. You may be far more flexible and resourceful than me. You can do this for closets and pantry's and such also.
Many people have a 2 car garage full of stuff and go buy a 10X10 shed, they start moving their stuff into the shed and quickly realize they need a bigger shed or a garage sale.Try not to shoot yourself in the foot space wise. Lay stuff out and see what you really need, wheres the toy bin and dirty cloths go? I completely over looked dirty cloths space in my planning.
I do not like the window AC idea, but that is my opinion. If you decide to go that route do a complete roof air pre installation. Frame them in and run wiring including thermostat wire if needed. Then you can add roof air as time and money permit. A bus will be unlivable without front air in FL. Of course someone will pipe up with I've lived in my bus in FL for 25 years with no air conditioning ;D So like I say just my opinion and worth what you pay for it. Just do not cut hole in roof until needed.
The rolling office chairs for drive and passenger, no way no how!
Some time spent looking at other buses would be worth its weight in gold and a wise investment of time.
Rule of thumb, Time to do conversion, take what you are planning and TRIPLE it. Money, at least DOUBLE what you are planning .
Good luck and welcome to the madness. JIm
jjrbus, smelly clothes. ;D ;D good one. most people don't think about that. wife's idea was find an old haseck (sp) and cut a hole in the bottom to dump smelly socks etc into lower bay. :o
worked great. 8)
Will be a difficult build as you have laid out. But that is what makes this hobby great! Go for it. Thinking outside the box is what it is all about...Do some research on your hvac. Suggest minni split inverter technology. Probably two 9000 BTU heat and cool would serve you well from the teens to 100F. Would only pull a max of 13 amps. where two roof tops or window ac would pull up to 40 amps on start up. Also look into induction cook tops. Much more efficient than drop in ranges. Toaster ovens or the induction dutch ovens can supply oven needs. Saves space and dollars. Eliminate LP from the coach. Led lighting is inexpensive also. Good luck Bob
Quote from: ekhedge on April 30, 2012, 05:37:32 AM
... your window a/c won't do...
And the fridge .. My wife and I fulltime and have an 18 cubic foot fridge....2 adults and the munchkins your going to be stopping every other day to resupply... Amusing at first but it'll get old mighty fast...
Quote from: jjrbus on April 30, 2012, 08:14:13 AM
I full timed in a 35" 5c with 2 people. We had a 12 cu ft apartment size fridge and it was adequit but for 2 people! Toss in 2 kids, no way.
..
I do not like the window AC idea, but that is my opinion. A bus will be unlivable without front air in FL.
Gents, thanks for the feedback! The fridge is now being revisited. And the feedback on my genius window AC idea has been clear and consistent, so I'm looking into mini-splits. Many thanks!
Now that that's oh of the way your bus and your ideas are AWESOME!! Being able to full time with the kids will be an amazing experience for all of you! And the adventures to come will be equally as amusing !
Looks fantastic! We used tape on the floor in a previous conversion to determine how much "walk around" space we had. Your drawings are fabulous. I'm not familliar with the MC5's but don't cover over the interior access to the engine. In some coaches it's on the riser for the back seat and in some it's on the floor at the rear. We had to tear apart our entire bedroom in our coach to change the starter. We now have a removable hatch to access the engine compartment.
Bryan
Good point qayqayt,
there are two engine access hatches on a 5C. Don't cover them up. Make sure you can lift the bed to get to them.
JC
Mike and Gigi:
Check out used generators on Craigs list or even in local large wrecking yards. Yours is way too small! And the idea of "electric start" means you don't have to go outside in the middle of a rain or snow storm to pull its rope and get it started. The second thing is your presently-selected genny will probably run 5 or six hours until it runs out of fuel. Then you will be going outside again under hurricane conditions to refill it.
$1,000 for a good used electric-start genny (a Kohler or an Onan for example) is doable: You just have to hunt around.
Have you considered all the implications of running a 12v house system on a 24v bus? You might want to rethink that. Remember that your engine alternator is an enormous source of power to charge house batteries if you design your system properly.
I would also advise you to reconsider separating the panels for the air conditioning and the rest of the coach. At the very least, they should be co-located. Otherwise it will be very difficult to move loads around later. For example, you might find it useful to be able to run one of your air conditioners from the inverter while rolling (your coach alternator is more than capable of providing enough power to do this).
Moreover, your plan shows "50 amps, 115 volts" but you are required to have a 50-amp. 240/120-volt split-phase system on a coach like this. You will need to account for how you will balance loads between the two legs of such a split system.
I am assuming that the lighting is shown in the plans as PAR-cans simply because that's a convenient built-in component in your drawing program. (As I also assume you are not really planning to use a five-point-base office chair to drive :). I strongly recommend that you use all low-profile LED fixtures with warm white LEDs for your house lighting.
You did not include any details on plumbing, tankage, LPG (if desired) or heating. Those are an integral part of the design and go hand-in-hand with electrical and A/C systems, so you'll want to get those integrated to the drawings before getting too far afield.
I will add my voice to the chorus about the window A/C.
I disagree with others on the size of the fridge -- we can go for 17 days of desert boondocking with our high-efficiency 7.5' under-counter model. However, if you plan to get a 120-vac model rather than an LP or Dc model, you might find that a 2k inverter is undersized for your full complement of appliances.
HTH,
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com (http://ourodyssey.blogspot.com)
we can go for 17 days of desert boondocking with our high-efficiency 7.5' under-counter model
Obviously not a beer drinker ;D
Quote from: qayqayt on May 01, 2012, 10:17:14 AM
I'm not familliar with the MC5's but don't cover over the interior access to the engine. In some coaches it's on the riser for the back seat and in some it's on the floor at the rear. We had to tear apart our entire bedroom in our coach to change the starter. We now have a removable hatch to access the engine compartment.
Quote from: lostagain on May 01, 2012, 12:25:23 PM
Good point qayqayt,
there are two engine access hatches on a 5C. Don't cover them up. Make sure you can lift the bed to get to them.
Thanks for the head's-up. Will plan accordingly. -Mike
Quote from: Sean on May 01, 2012, 06:46:25 PM
Have you considered all the implications of running a 12v house system on a 24v bus? You might want to rethink that. Remember that your engine alternator is an enormous source of power to charge house batteries if you design your system properly.
Sean, I found your discussions on this in the archives after Sam 4106 pointed out the same thing. Here was my response to Sam:
This one requires more research - and I've been digging around the archived threads on this tonight. One concern I have is whether I'll risk burning out the alternator on my 5C with the additional load? Is there even a risk of this? Would I be leaving much low-cost energy on the table by not tapping into this source? I'm quite open to going this route if it makes sense and if my noggin can handle the added complexity of tying the chassis and house systems together. Sean's Odessey website has great info, but I'm still not fully understanding it. Thoughts anyone?
I'm going to take a stab at revising the electrical for 24v house system. I'll post it soon and would very much appreciate your review.
Quote from: Sean on May 01, 2012, 06:46:25 PMI would also advise you to reconsider separating the panels for the air conditioning and the rest of the coach. At the very least, they should be co-located. Otherwise it will be very difficult to move loads around later. For example, you might find it useful to be able to run one of your air conditioners from the inverter while rolling (your coach alternator is more than capable of providing enough power to do this).
I left this as a separate system to avoid overloading the inverter and because I would not run the AC off my house batteries. But this plan was made before I considered tying into the engine alternator. If we tied it to the alternator, that would sway me toward removing the OTR air conditioner, which would free up valuable space in this 35-footer. Not sure which way to go here.
Quote from: Sean on May 01, 2012, 06:46:25 PMMoreover, your plan shows "50 amps, 115 volts" but you are required to have a 50-amp. 240/120-volt split-phase system on a coach like this. You will need to account for how you will balance loads between the two legs of such a split system.
Learned this from Sam last night as well; we haven't been to a campground before and ddn't realize it was 240. At 50 amp, I probably shoulda known. Can you describe how to "balance loads between the two legs?" I'm okay with electrical stuff, but have zero experience/knowledge of 240 (except when I cobbled together my welder's NEMA plug).
Quote from: Sean on May 01, 2012, 06:46:25 PMI am assuming that the lighting is shown in the plans as PAR-cans simply because that's a convenient built-in component in your drawing program. (As I also assume you are not really planning to use a five-point-base office chair to drive :). I strongly recommend that you use all low-profile LED fixtures with warm white LEDs for your house lighting.
Your assumptions are correct. Gigi is using Revit to draw the plans, and it doesn't have air-ride captains chairs in the details library :) Where did you purchase your LEDs?
Quote from: Sean on May 01, 2012, 06:46:25 PMYou did not include any details on plumbing, tankage, LPG (if desired) or heating. Those are an integral part of the design and go hand-in-hand with electrical and A/C systems, so you'll want to get those integrated to the drawings before getting too far afield.
Those plans are all in my head -- haven't been transmitted to the project architect because she's been tied up packing for our upcoming move. But here's the summary:
- Tankage = [100 gal freshwater tank under bed & 100 gallon grey/black tank in rear bay. The grey/black is made out of plywood/fiberglass (what a mess and PITA that was), spans the bay and has 3" valterra valves on both sides. The architect / video engineer is putting together our first youtube video of this project.
- Plumbin is pretty straight forward and is basically taken out of the Bus Converter's Bible. The only open questions I have are (1) which pump should we buy, (2) which LP tankless heater should we buy, and (3) should I include radiator misters on a stand-alone system running distilled water?
- We will have LP for the kitchen burners, two heaters, the water heater, and a BBQ grill on home-made sliders in the bay.
Quote from: Sean on May 01, 2012, 06:46:25 PMI disagree with others on the size of the fridge -- we can go for 17 days of desert boondocking with our high-efficiency 7.5' under-counter model. However, if you plan to get a 120-vac model rather than an LP or Dc model, you might find that a 2k inverter is undersized for your full complement of appliances.
I am planning on a 120 fridge due to cost. But I found one of your posts in the archives where you mention that one may purchase a 24v fridge for about the the price as a 120vac model. Can you recommend a supplier? I selected the 2000 watt inverter on the presumption that the AC would never be run through it. I'm still leaning in that direction but am open to suggestion.
Sean, thanks very much for sharing your knowledge and experience. -Mike
Quote from: robertglines1 on April 30, 2012, 01:21:45 PM
Will be a difficult build as you have laid out. But that is what makes this hobby great! Go for it. Thinking outside the box is what it is all about...Do some research on your hvac. Suggest minni split inverter technology. Probably two 9000 BTU heat and cool would serve you well from the teens to 100F. Would only pull a max of 13 amps. where two roof tops or window ac would pull up to 40 amps on start up. Also look into induction cook tops. Much more efficient than drop in ranges. Toaster ovens or the induction dutch ovens can supply oven needs. Saves space and dollars. Eliminate LP from the coach. Led lighting is inexpensive also. Good luck Bob
Bob, Gigi and I checked out your build pictures. Wow. You're in a whole different league! We got some great ideas from your pics. But I fear we'll still look like a rag-tag gypsy wagon parked next to one of your rigs. (This is not meant to disparage gypsies.)
We're looking into mini-splits now. I agree with your suggestion of two 9000 btu units. Any recommendations as to brand / supplier / install "gotcha's?"
24 volt lighting is easy to get as you can still used most 12 volt fixtures... As far as your alt is concerned you have a Massive amount 400 amps if it's a 50dn if I recall. Use the power of the net bulbs pumps te whole works are easily attainable as most marine applications use 24 volt... I can't help you on the hot water heater but I can tell you our current rig holds 80gallo s of propane and I expect that to last most of the summer... Load balancing is making sure each "leg" has an equal load as you main will be few off 2 120 legs basically do t put all your eggs in one basket spread the load equally... Hope some of that helps oh and
And sure what ever inverter you buy is a "PUrE" sign wave not modified many motors and son sensitive electronics will no last long nor operate well with a modified one... And dont ask why I check the bus board at 3 am it's generally my first cup of coffee. :)
Keep em coming
Eric
Oh and Sean is the archival master of this board... Just an FYI he knows his stuff!!!
Quote from: Midwilshire on May 01, 2012, 10:16:19 PM
... One concern I have is whether I'll risk burning out the alternator on my 5C with the additional load? Is there even a risk of this?
Well, nothing is risk-free. But the 50DN is rated for its full nameplate output continuously. You will have batteries in the system in parallel with the alternator, so if your load temporarily exceeds the rating of the alternator, the additional current will simply come from the batteries. The batteries will begin charging again when the load drops. Your 50DN can supply 6.5-7.5 kW of power depending on model, which is more than many RV generators.
Don't forget the alternator was running the road air/heat blowers when the coach was in passenger service, which is probably more load than you will ever put on it. That said, you might have the alternator checked if you have any reason to believe the bearings may be worn (probably not if your suspicions about mileage are correct).
Quote
Would I be leaving much low-cost energy on the table by not tapping into this source?
In short, yes. Even if you don't run loads such as roof airs from the alternator while driving, this is still an important source of battery charge -- 20 times more that your solar panels on the sunniest of days. Because the main engine is already running in a thermally efficient mode while driving, the extra ten HP or so it takes to make power from the alternator uses much less fuel than a stand-alone engine/generator would use. I discussed this in the second half of this post:
http://www.busconversions.com/bbs/index.php?topic=7622.msg74699#msg74699 (http://www.busconversions.com/bbs/index.php?topic=7622.msg74699#msg74699)
Quote
I'm quite open to going this route if it makes sense and if my noggin can handle the added complexity of tying the chassis and house systems together.
If the house and chassis systems are the same voltage, then tying them together is a simple and inexpensive process. Several ways to do it, which have been gone over ad nauseam on this board already so I won't repeat it all here.
If the house and chassis are different voltages, then it becomes a much more involved affair.
Quote
... If we tied it to the alternator, that would sway me toward removing the OTR air conditioner, which would free up valuable space in this 35-footer. Not sure which way to go here.
This, again, has been extensively covered in the archives. My take on this is that electric air can be used when parked OR when driving, whereas road air can only be used while driving. Driving generally constitutes a tiny percentage of the time you spend aboard the coach -- we drive more than most, and it still figures to just 500 hours a year. The other 8,000 hours we are parked. The road air costs a lot to maintain, takes up a lot of space and weight, and is of minimal benefit. JMO, YMMV, and FWIW.
Quote
... we haven't been to a campground before and ddn't realize it was 240. At 50 amp, I probably shoulda known. Can you describe how to "balance loads between the two legs?" I'm okay with electrical stuff, but have zero experience/knowledge of 240 (except when I cobbled together my welder's NEMA plug).
At the risk of sounding like a broken record, this too has been extensively covered in the archives. I can also recommend George Myers' excellent guide, "Electrical Systems for Converted Coaches," which addresses this and many more issues.
Since your inverter will be 120v single-phase (as opposed to 240/120v split-phase), typically the inverter is placed on one leg by itself, with all its connected loads, and whatever other loads there are, such as air conditioners, washer/dryers, electric heaters and/or water heater elements, etc. are all placed on the other leg. Connecting the A/C to the inverter instead of the second leg while driving can be accomplished with a relay actuated by alternator output. Lots of other load-balancing tricks can be implemented, such as those described under "energy management" on my bus pages.
QuoteThose plans are all in my head -- haven't been transmitted to the project architect because she's been tied up packing for our upcoming move. But here's the summary:
- Tankage = [100 gal freshwater tank under bed & 100 gallon grey/black tank in rear bay. The grey/black is made out of plywood/fiberglass (what a mess and PITA that was), spans the bay and has 3" valterra valves on both sides. The architect / video engineer is putting together our first youtube video of this project.
- Plumbin is pretty straight forward and is basically taken out of the Bus Converter's Bible. The only open questions I have are (1) which pump should we buy, (2) which LP tankless heater should we buy, and (3) should I include radiator misters on a stand-alone system running distilled water?
- We will have LP for the kitchen burners, two heaters, the water heater, and a BBQ grill on home-made sliders in the bay.
If you go with a 24v house system the pump I recommend is the SensorVSD which runs on that voltage. It comes in two sizes and I suggest the larger 4.5 gpm.
I can't advise you on the tankless heater since I don't care for them. My reasons detailed in this thread:
http://www.busconversions.com/bbs/index.php?topic=5149.0;all (http://www.busconversions.com/bbs/index.php?topic=5149.0;all)
...
Quote
I am planning on a 120 fridge due to cost. But I found one of your posts in the archives where you mention that one may purchase a 24v fridge for about the the price as a 120vac model. Can you recommend a supplier?
Hmm, I don't remember saying this. Very small AC units will almost always be less expensive than equivalently sized DC units. Total system cost for DC can be less when you consider the extra costs of inverters and other components, but even this might be a stretch. That said, there are lots of good reasons to go DC. For example DC units are generally more efficient, and your inverter does not need to be running to power them.
If you do go AC, then you should make sure your inverter is a true sine wave model.
QuoteI selected the 2000 watt inverter on the presumption that the AC would never be run through it. I'm still leaning in that direction but am open to suggestion.
That's really a matter of personal choice. I will say, though, that you have the option of much larger inverters with a 24v system. We routinely run two air conditioners (plus all our other "normal" loads) while underway from our 4kW model.
HTH,
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com (http://ourodyssey.blogspot.com)
I have to side with Sean on the fridge issue. We have full-timed for 4 years now, and part-timed several years prior to that. We also have a 7.5' rv style fridge. Wife and 2 kids and we often go 2 weeks or more between shopping trips.
Hi Mike & Gigi,
I suggest you push your home bed into a corner and place a piece of furniture at the end so you only have access from one side to see if you like that arrangement. I know every inch is precious in a bus but I don't think you will like your planed arrangement.
I don't know how tall either of you are or the ceiling height of your bus but adding 1.5" of insulation and 3/4" to the floor seems like you are sacrificing too much head room. Do you really need 3/4" plywood over the rigid foam? I think 3/8" would be enough and be half the weight. Not everyone thinks about the weight issue when converting a bus.
When will you be in Minnesota? We are members of Midwest Bus Nuts chapter of Family Motor Coach Association and there will be a rally at Wisconsin Dells May 18-20 if you would like to see a few buses. Some are professional conversions and some, like ours, are home conversions. You have already done a great job of planning but you would probably benefit from seeing other buses and talking to the owners. Our rallies have gotten smaller with the high cost of fuel so I expect only 10 or so buses. Saturday would be the best time to look at buses as Friday is arrival day and some people leave early Sunday morning. Hope you can make it.
Good luck with your project, Sam MCI 8 (formerly Sam 4106 until we changed buses)
Quote from: Sam 4106 on May 03, 2012, 03:43:37 AMI suggest you push your home bed into a corner and place a piece of furniture at the end so you only have access from one side to see if you like that arrangement. I know every inch is precious in a bus but I don't think you will like your planed arrangement. (snip)
Yeah, that's one of the first "requirements" that The Management laid down. She said "I'm not crawling around a bed trying to put sheets on the corner of a mattress stuck way back where I can't get to it". So our bed is a pedestal in the middle of the floor with an aisle down each side. And it's a California King. She was right about that, too. (The issue of who is going to crawl over whom to get up to go to the bathroom is also something to think about too.)
Quote from: Sam 4106 on May 03, 2012, 03:43:37 AM
I suggest you push your home bed into a corner and place a piece of furniture at the end so you only have access from one side to see if you like that arrangement.
We've had both arrangements before, and Gigi likes the current design. She-who-must-be-obeyed hath spoken.
Quote from: Sam 4106 on May 03, 2012, 03:43:37 AM
I don't know how tall either of you are or the ceiling height of your bus but adding 1.5" of insulation and 3/4" to the floor seems like you are sacrificing too much head room. Do you really need 3/4" plywood over the rigid foam? I think 3/8" would be enough and be half the weight. Not everyone thinks about the weight issue when converting a bus.
I had selected 3/4" because that's what Mike802 used. http://www.busconversions.com/bbs/index.php?topic=22010.0 (http://www.busconversions.com/bbs/index.php?topic=22010.0) But now that you mention it, his had to be structural, since he tore up the old floor. Since I'm planning to leave the exiting floor, 3/8" plywood should work. Thanks.
Quote from: Sam 4106 on May 03, 2012, 03:43:37 AM
there will be a rally at Wisconsin Dells May 18-20 if you would like to see a few buses.
Dang, I'll be pulling in around the 23rd. Staying until around 1 July. Lemme know if anything else is going on during that time.
-Mike