I just got the results of my oil analysis, and it shows an elevated level of sodium (68 PPM) and the diagnosis states "sodium level (possible coolant chemical) elevated". All other parameters are within their acceptable ranges. This oil has less than 1000 miles on it. So, what's the next course of action? I'm driving only a few hundred miles a year while I'm in the process of converting the bus. Obviously I'm worried that one or both head gaskets may be bad, or there may even be a crack somewhere. Is there a way to pressure-test the cooling system to see if coolant is escaping into the engine? What's a normal level of sodium?
The present oil is Conoco-Phillips 76 T5X straight 40-weight (yes, it's CF-2 rated, even though its ash is right at 1%!). I could change the oil again, but I'll probably get the same analysis results if whatever is causing the problem isn't fixed.
Ironically, I had this analysis done to see if there were elevated levels of silicates on the oil, after my scare with the damaged air filter a few months ago. The Silicon level is only 12 PPM, so at least that's OK. This coolant thing is not what I was expecting.
Thanks, John
Retest after some use and see if it's going up. That is unless the report tells you to do something different. The oil analysis reports I'm familiar with give you some idea of what to do.
Don't worry about analysis report on oil that is only 1000 miles. Your silicates is low: good. You have to look at the trends over several reports at 250 hour oil change intervals, that is about 15000 miles +-, depending on how much idling you do. If your coolant was leaking into the oil, it would show up in the oil quite obviously on the report. Now that the silicates concern is out of the way, don't change it so soon, the report will be more meaningfull.
JC
Be sure to check your buses Blood Pressure because they say elevated sodium will cause high blood pressure --- Happened to me ::)
Sodium is a additive in engine oil check the label and have a test done on new oil fwiw most Jiffy/Lube's can do that for you and get the print out while waiting that is a neat computer they have now
good luck
wonder if jiffy lube tests oil for free? will have to stop by when i go in to town and check the analysis thing... mostly to see if they have that. thanks for the postl
Quote from: lostagain on April 27, 2012, 04:55:57 PM
Don't worry about analysis report on oil that is only 1000 miles. If your coolant was leaking into the oil, it would show up in the oil quite obviously on the report.
This is why I am worried about the report of Sodium. The oil is almost new, and if this has happened in only 1000 miles or so that's not a good sign. If it had happened in 10,000 miles, I would be slightly less concerned. Either way, I do have reason to be very concerned.
My feeling at this point is that either the oil cooler or the cylinder O-rings are leaking, so it's either new engine time or I'll just cut my losses and scrap the whole damn thing.
John
Pull your air box covers on the block you can tell if the o-rings are leaking are you getting any moisture from the air box drains ? either the after cooler or the o-rings on the liners leaking will show up at the drain tubes that is why I hate to see the air box drains hidden in some type catch can lol .
What was the readings on the old oil if you going to do a oil analysis program you need a bench mark to start with some of the testing labs can screw up big time by sending the wrong report do it again at a later date
Oil and analysis is what I do. 68ppm is not alarming but definitely concerning. The beauty of the news is you get to tackle the problem in the driveway and not on the side of I40 in 105 degree heat. This worked for a customer of mine with the same issue on an industrial application. He had his mechanic/technician re-torque the cylinder heads, change the oil, and sampled again after a certain amount of hours. Sorry can remember exactly but 1000 miles should be a good mark. Levels were down and crisis was averted. Basically he saved tons of down time with 2-$15 oil analysis, 2 oil and filter changes, and 2 hours of shop time. A very small price to pay compared to what was eventually going to be lots of money and down time. I applaud you on doing the analysis, you will avoid exactly what oil analysis is the prevention method for. ;D
Thank you, Clifford and Carbone, for your encouraging advice. Yes, I am still VERY concerned about this, but at least now I have some specific direction to be going. I will ask ABC Bus (they're just down the road from here, and they work on plenty of 2-stroke buses) to retorque the heads and look it over, and change the oil and filters. Either they or I can take off the airbox covers and look inside - I wouldn't really know what to look for, but maybe they would? When I first start the engine and for the first few minutes I get a few drops of oil from the slobber tubes, but once the engine's up to temperature it doesn't drip more oil there. (When I leave the yard it leaves a few drops on the ground, but when I get back it doesn't seem to drip at all.) The engine otherwise seems healthy - it starts well, doesn't smoke, has good power (especially after changing the air filter a few months ago!), and doesn't leak too much for a Detroit.
So, the collective wisdom here says I should be checking both heads' torque, and the airboxes for O-ring leaks. Is there anything else I should also be checking? How about the oil cooler on the driver's side of the block? Does it also have O-rings, or does it have a gasket? How else could some coolant gradually be getting into the oil? I'm open to any and all suggestions.
As for getting a baseline reading for the oil in the engine now, I don't think I can! ABC Bus doesn't have any more of the 76 T5X, and I don't have any more of it. I don't know anyone else here that has any in stock. Conoco Phillips' website doesn't specify the sodium content in its MSDS. When I next change the oil I'll buy Delo 100 from Southern Counties Lubricants in Orange CA, unless ABC Bus has something else suitable.
Thanks, John
Don't worry about the oil cooler if a leak is there it will show up in the radiator coolant as oil a nasty job cleaning up for a bad oil cooler
I would use a different oil. Hopefully one with a known sodium content.
I thought that coolant leaking into the oil would be indicated by the glycol content on the oil analysis report. That is what I look for. How could a leak pass sodium only, and not glycol.
Am I missing something? I am willing to learn.
JC
Quote from: Iceni John on April 30, 2012, 04:52:48 PM
When I next change the oil I'll buy Delo 100 from Southern Counties Lubricants in Orange CA, unless ABC Bus has something else suitable.
John -Not too long ago a fellow busnut had a big go-round w/ your ABC branch over an oil change. IIRC, he requested straight 40 wt for his 8V71, which was written on the repair order by the service advisor. The shop paid no attention and put 15-40wt in it out of their bulk tank. Even the branch manager, which is a son of the founder, refused to budge on the issue, saying that's all they put in every engine nowadays. So beware. . . better to bring your own, me thinks.
FWIW & HTH. . .
;)
I don't think he has a problem any moisture from a leaking seal ,top end (head area)or aftercooler will show up at the air box drains I believe his sample is picking up a additives in the oil and reading it as sodium myself and he is not over the allowable of 60 ppm by much
Oil analysis works best when the oil has many hours or miles on it and has had the time to accumulate particulates and stuff. Is the mill an older DD 2 stroke?....they had the habit of kinda mixing oil and coolant no matter how tight the gaskets are. Apparently it is the nature of the beasts.
Do they make inexpensive do-it-yourself tests to check the coolant for oil infiltration? 30 to 40 psi vs 5 to 12 psi. While you may have a concern, perhaps it is not yet sossss bad that it is an actual problem. HB of CJ (old coot) :)
Quote from: HB of CJ on May 01, 2012, 11:33:23 PM
Oil analysis works best when the oil has many hours or miles on it and has had the time to accumulate particulates and stuff. Is the mill an older DD 2 stroke? Do they make inexpensive do-it-yourself tests to check the coolant for oil infiltration?
It's a 1990 silver 6V92, so it's not an oldie. My concern is that the rate of coolant contamination is high if I'm getting warning signs after only 1000 miles. If the same readings were after 10,000 miles, that would indicate a contamination rate ten times less, not in itself good but overall less of a concern. On Clifford's recommendation I will look inside the airboxes and see if coolant is visible there.
I've not heard of a DIY coolant test for oil contamination. Is it a bad thing if a tiny amount of oil is circulating around the coolant system? I've heard of owners of older English cars (that need all the help they can get to keep them going!) putting small amounts of oil into their coolant "to lubricate the water pump".
Thanks, John
Standard procedure is to let the engine sit for a while (day or two) then crack the oil pan drain bolt and slowly unscrew it until 1. oil starts to ooze out or 2. Anti-freeze/water comes out. If #2 happens you have a problem. At this point you drain the oil, take off the oil pan, and pressurize the cooling system. You then see where the coolant is coming from, and from that you can tell if it is the liner o-rings, left or right side of the head seals, the water pump, or even the aftercooler oil rings. Of course, there is always the possibility that the block is cracked. Oh, it could also be an injector tube and what ever else I can't think of at the moment. In any case you get to play detective.
--Geoff
I put a Fumoto oil drain valve on my engine, so it's easy to drain oil or get samples. I'll draw off some oil tonight and look at it carefully.
Thanks, John