Sometime ago I traded messages with Driving Miss Lazy regarding good ways of getting a stuck bus out of the sand. First, I am happy to report that I have not yet had the privilege of getting my bus stuck.
DML suggested stretchy rope so that the towing vehicle can get a running start, and since the rope stretches, it won't yank the axles off, or bumpers or whatever you have tied it to.
In preparation for the awful day when I do become stuck (I go to the desert all the time) I purchased a 60 foot length of 1" marine rope that has 15% stretch in it. 30,000 lbs breaking strength. I always carry it with me. This last weekend, I used it to tow out motor homes with trailers, trucks and camping trailers etc. I used a friends truck so I didn't have to get the bus in the sand. I am now a great believer, and so are most of my friends about using a stretchy rope to tow with. One group of folks was using a flat nylon tow strap to tow out a big class A with trailer, when the strap broke, it took out the motor home's radiator. When they got out a chain I was afraid they would do some real damage so I went over and lent them my rope. they had been working for several hours to try to get the unit out, but the rope just popped the out in several minutes. ( I had been away from camp when they were originally stuck or I would have helped them sooner, before the radiator got trashed.)
Its really remarkable how well it works. My only issue is being able to find the big stuff at a reasonable price, I paid a lot from the marine store for this - although still less than a tow if I ever need it.
The main point of this post is to let everyone know the dramatic difference there is in using something that gives as opposed to chain or other non stretchy stuff. Much safer, way more effective.
I agree that a rope is the way to go but I'm not sure 1" is heavy enough. We use 2 or 3" for pulling heavy trucks. 30,000# seems light duty for a vehicle that could weigh 35,000#. JM2C
We have a customer who came within a few inches of getting his head taken off with a broken chain this fall. The chain broke and came through the rear window of the tractor and wrapped itself over his shoulder. A few inches higher and it would have been all over.
Another trick is to hang a tire or a heavy blanket or whatever over the tow strap while towing. If it does break and start to become a deadly whip, having something hanging on the strap will stop it or at least deflect it downward. Its more likely to hit the ground than a windshield or a head. Should probably be standard procedure to alway use something, no matter what you are using to tow with. Easy to do, and a good safety precaution.
Good point about the thickness, I just bought the heaviest they had. It doesn't have to support the entire weight of the vehicle, just tow it. I was not sure how to accurately calculate the minimum breaking strength required, with out just doing overkill. Does anyone have a good rule of thumb for this?
Jim, I had some 1.25 or 1.5 rope. But I sold it cheap at a yard sale. It was a winch line from a digger truck, used to set poles. The next time they throw it away do you want me to get some? It is big to tie knots in, I had somone weave eyes in mine. Tom Y
Its difficult to turn away an offer like that, but I want to stick to rope that has stretch in it. This makes it useful for a smaller vehicle trying to tow out a large vehicle, especially in deep sand or when traction is an issue. The stretch allows use of momentum instead of relying on power and traction from a dead stop. Thank you very much for the offer though, its appreciated.
My nylon rope was either 1 inch or 1-1/4 inch. I actually had two of them that were about 50 foot each.
I got stuck in the sand once at Glamis and the rear of the bus was buried all the way to the sand.
My son had a 3/4 ton 4X4 ford pickup with a stake body on it. Nothing in the bed. I was so far back in the sand that his truck was still in soft sand also, even at the end of the rope all stretched out.
The hardest part of it is the technique that is very scary the first time. He backed his truck up to the front bumper of the bus. He then takes off, balls to the wall. Wide open. When the rope starts to tighten up, I gun the bus. The surprising thing is that the stretch in the nylon line is such that I never felt a hard jerk. On this occasion it took three tries, but he got me out. Believe me we rescued lots of motor homes and campers, even some with their trailer still attached.
I do know how to weave an eye in the end, so that was no problem.
I would be scared of going with too big a rope as it may not have the amount of stretch necessary to eliminate the jerking when the line gets taut. Sure would be interesting to know how much force is exerted when the line is fully extended. I believe Royce was up to about 30 mph when the line finally got taut.
I saw a bunch of nylon line here at a surplus store a couple of years ago and got a couple of pieces for about $20.00 each but i do not know if they still have any.
Richard
Just remembered, I was thinking about manufacturing these and trying to sell them on ebay or somewhere. The following is the description I developed. Never tried to sell one though.
Bungee tow Rope
A revolutionary new development in tow ropes
The Bungee Tow Rope (BTR) was developed after years of experiments to overcome the inherent weaknesses of flat or inflexible tow lines commonly sold to off- roaders and others wishing to have a method of freeing vehicles stuck in sand, mud, snow or other obstacles.
To utilize these flat or inflexible type lines, the towing vehicle must be on solid footing to assure good traction, the line must be taut before any pulling pressure is exerted, and pulling power is limited to the direct force the towing vehicle can apply to the line.
The BTR operates on an exciting new principle whereby the towing vehicle does not need to be on solid footing and the pulling force is multiplied by a factor of ten or more. The BTR is manufactured utilizing a special nylon line, similar to a bungee cord, which can stretch to more than double its length, similar to a rubber band.
In use, the BTR is attached to the towing vehicles tow ball or frame and to the stuck vehicles front frame, with the towing vehicles rear bumper in close vicinity to the stuck vehicles front bumper. The slack line is coiled up between the two vehicles.
The towing vehicle then accelerates rapidly removing all the slack in the BTR and stretching it to its maximum length. There is no jerk as the BTR tightens and the stretching action stores a tremendous amount of kinetic energy in the line. As the line tightens the stuck vehicle accelerates and like magic, the combination of the towing vehicles weight combined with the stored energy in the BTR, the stuck vehicle is no longer stuck and with seemingly no effort follows the tow vehicle to firm ground.
The BTR is manufactured in various line diameters as well as various lengths, depending on the intended use.
1. BTR ¾-25: 3/4 inch by 25 ft. For lightweight vehicles under 1000 lbs. like All Terrain Vehicles.
2. BTR ¾-50: 3/4 inch by 50 ft. For lightweight automobiles under 2500 lbs.
3. BTR 1-50: 1 inch by 50 ft. For full size automobiles and pickup trucks as well as smaller motor homes and autos towing travel trailers.
4. For larger motor homes and vehicles towing large travel trailers, two BTR 1-50's are recommended.
Extreme Examples where the BTR saved the day:
1. A large Greyhound style bus, converted to a motor home, and weighing 40,000 lbs. was buried up to the rear axles in soft sand at Glamis, Ca. The off road capitol of the world.
Utilizing two BTR1-50's (100 ft. total length), a ½ ton Chevy 4X4 pickup truck was able to extract the bus from the sand in two tries.
2. A large motor home towing a 25 ft. enclosed trailer, loaded with sand toys, was buried in the sand at Pismo Beach, Ca. A one ton dually 4X4 pickup, utilizing a flat tow strap, also became buried trying to extract the motor home. Since the flat strap was tight, it was impossible to remove the strap connecting the pickup from the motor home without cutting it. Again, utilizing two BTR1-50's, the combination of three vehicles were extracted from the soft sand with a ½ ton Ford pickup flatbed pickup.
3. The third extreme example is really unbelievable but absolutely true.
A large 35 ft 4X4 motor home towing a 30 ft open trailer with lots of sand toys and four 55 gallon drums of fuel was hopelessly buried in the soft sand at Glamis. A one ton 4X4 dually trying to extract this unit was also hopelessly buried in the sand and it was impossible to unhook the flat tow strap between the units.
So along comes a little ¼ ton 4X4 Toyota pickup.. Everyone laughed outrageously when the Toyota backed up to the front of the stuck vehicles and offered to pull them out. Needless to say, the laughter changed to applause when the "little Toyota that could" walked the combined stuck vehicles out of the soft sand and on to the hard pack utilizing two BTR 1-50's and one BTR-1-25 for a combined length of 125 feet.
For more information and pricing contact BTR Industries, XXX Parkersburg Road, Spencer, WV 25276
Telephone: 304-927-XXX, Email: BTRIndustries@Charter.net
Tom, it must be a nylon type line that stretches. I would suspect that a winch line would not have any stretch.
Richard
Quote from: Tom Y on October 29, 2006, 05:47:01 PM
Jim, I had some 1.25 or 1.5 rope. But I sold it cheap at a yard sale. It was a winch line from a digger truck, used to set poles. The next time they throw it away do you want me to get some? It is big to tie knots in, I had somone weave eyes in mine. Tom Y
If you have it available - pouring water in front of the wheels before you bury the vehicle to the axles will enable you to drive out of the sand in many cases. Be sure to keep the front wheels straight until you get moving or they will act like an anchor.
Thanks for the tip on the stretchable rope. Sounds like a great idea!
Richard (DML) -
Think you've got a good opportunity to supplement your income with the BRT - you ought to make up a couple and try your luck on eBay with them!
FWIW. . .
;)
Nothing new. I've been making, selling, and using nylon tow ropes all my life. We made them to raise money in FFA when I was in high school. Usually made 1 1/2" ropes which worked well on general oil field and ranch vehicles. Had a construction company with graders, scrapers, and D8 Cats that wanted them a little bigger, so we made up some 2" ones. Splicing a loop in that one is a real pain in the rear!
My family sold them for the FFA through our service station. Couldn't keep them in stock when hunting season rolled around. FFA probably made 50 to 100 a year. We bought rope by the spool, 600' at a time.
Hard to find nylon rope in 1" or larger. The last few I made for myself and others, I had to special order it out of a place in Grand Rapids, MI. I carry one in the pickup, and have had one in the car for years until we got this 03 Explorer, and there's no place to put one.
Nylon rope is the best for pulling out stuck vehicles. However, as indicated, it can be dangerous. I've personally seen one take the headlight assembly completely off an older Autocar oil field truck. Those headlights are about the size of a man's head. At the time, I was sitting in an old Hough open cab loader pulling on a second rope. I decided that probably wasn't the best place to be at the moment and climbed down and walked away. Didn't thrill my Dad, but we weren't going to get that truck out, anyway. He was high centered with a full load of gravel and we just didn't have the weight to pull it.
Although I repsect all your opinions about using nylon ropes for pulling stuck vehicles ...
I'll either pass or make sure I am inside a bullet proof vehicle when it's being used.
Years ago, while using nylon tow strap, the anchor point broke (not the strap), and it came flying ... clipping my head, caught the corner of my eye, knocking my glasses off. Could have lost my eye.
So for me, I will not use anything with elasticity. Oh, and my aunt used to work for a company that made cargo netting and strapping for helicopter lifts and the military, so the straps weren't crap ... but can you trust both the strap and the tow point all the time.
In any case, "if" something gives and if there's any elasticity in the strap -- watch out. I use chains for pulling vehicles out.
Just my $0.02,
Jerry H.
Yes, I've witnessed nylon rope do considerable damage when something broke or came loose.
I've also watched chains punch holes in tailgates and take out rear windows (no nylon in the rig, only chain).
Tugging vehicles out of stuck places can be hazardous to your health, if you are not careful, or if you are just plain unlucky.
craig
Jerry and all, the line breaking or the tow point breaking has always been a major concern for me also, but a chain is probably more dangerous than a rope. Especially if a tow point breaks loose. And a chain is almost useless in the sand. The tow vehicle just sinks in the sand. In fact one combination that Royce pulled out one time included a pickup with a chain attached to a motor home which had a trailer attached. The pickup with the chain was stuck also and could not get the chain unhooked. LOL
Richard
The danger is in the uncontroled release of the stored energy in the rope/ strap/ chain. The energy of the broken strap/ chain has to be dissipated, some use a tire, some use a radiator or tailgate, others weren't as lucky.
When pulling, you MUST use secure attachment points, I lost a classmate in high school when they were pulling out a stuck 4X4 using a nylon recovery strap that was just slipped over the trailer ball. Yep, the ball snapped off & went thru the skull of the victim. This is the reason I turn chicken (complete with a yellow belly) & call a tow/ recovery service that has experience & knows what to do.
EVERYTHING has elasticity, just varing degrees of it.
The stretchy rope is much easier on the attachment points than a chain. I've used chain & I cringe every time the slack is taken up as it feels like a very hard hit & I just know something just got ripped off.
If using the stretch rope, it needs to be sized for the smaller vehicle's momentum since that is the deciding factor. In DML's example, that would be the son's pickup. This gives the softest impact to the vehicles.
I too use a heavy tow rope, I got it from an army surplus store. If it held up for the ARMY it'll hold up for me! BK ;D
Be careful, I will try and post the photo of the 2" 3 strand nylon rope imprint showing up as a raised welt on my upper back and neck. After the rope took out the back and side windows, it hit me. The winshield and metal dash were clearly outlined around my upper torso and head just like they were sandblasted. My back looked like I had been shot with a shotgun, through a jacket and 2 shirts. The rope was in good shape bur still parted just below the splice.
DML,
If I read your mock ebay ad correctly, your max size rope was 1" in diameter. With all those tows, and heavy buses, did you ever have one break?
Any idea what the breaking strength was?
This last weekend in watching the guy using the chain, the only time he made any headway with moving the stuck vehicle, was when he got a running start of say several inches as the slack came out. That is very dangerous with a chain, or something that has little perceptable stretch. They did the same thing with the non stretchable nylon strap. Getting out of deep sand is more than just normal towing. I think not having that sudden jerk puts a ot less stress on the rope, and the attach points.
I want to reiterate about putting a tire or a blanket over the rope / chain as you are using it. I believe that all the stories in this trhead about catastrophic failure and folks gettig hurt, would have been prevented if they had simply hung something over it.
BK, a tow strap is not in the same class as a nylon line. It will not stretch. At least not enough to be of any benefit. I have tried everything in the sand dunes and in some mud bogs and nothing available even comes close to the nylon line. It is really amazing to watch. You see the slack come out of the nylon line and then you expect a jerk of some kind, but nothing happens. The tow vehicle just keeps going for what appears to be another 50 feet or so, then the bus just seems to kinda start moving. No jerk at all.
Richard
Quote from: DrivingMissLazy on October 30, 2006, 08:23:52 AM
BK, a tow strap is not in the same class as a nylon line. It will not stretch. At least not enough to be of any benefit. I have tried everything in the sand dunes and in some mud bogs and nothing available even comes close to the nylon line. It is really amazing to watch. You see the slack come out of the nylon line and then you expect a jerk of some kind, but nothing happens. The tow vehicle just keeps going for what appears to be another 50 feet or so, then the bus just seems to kinda start moving. No jerk at all.
Richard
Richard, Would you tell me the reason a strap is not the same as a rope? Isn't a round profile the same as a flat profile?
"Warn" uses recovery straps, Holmes uses recovery straps and AATAC uses recovery straps. Believe me, I've used lot's of these companies products. Is it posible they would not use a rope in place of a strap?
This would be interesting to persue farther.
Personally, I've towed out logging trucks in Idaho using nothing but a 4" cargo strap nad a 1 ton service truck. It had lots of stretch and snap.
Dallas
I'm not sure, but I believe it has to do with the weave pattern & maybe the compressibility of the core. The straps may also be more sensitive to nicks on the edge.
Dallas, a tow strap does not stretch.very much if any. At least none that I have seen. The nylon line stretches at least 50% or more I believe and you end up with a lot of stored energy in the stretched rope.
Remember you start off with the tow vehicle back bumper up against the front bumper of the vehicle being towed and 100 feet of line curled up under the truck.
It is really a scary feeling the first time you do this, to see the truck take off and then the line finally getting all stretched out. As the line actually stretches you feel nothing in the bus, until there is enough energy stored in the line to start moving the bus. Many times the tow vehicle will come to a complete stop for a few seconds just spinning in the sand until the bus starts to move. You really have to see this to actually believe it works so great.
My son used to make lots of spare change pulling people out when we went to Glamis or Pismo Beach. In many cases it was after a wrecker had tried and failed. The winch on a wrecker would just pull the wrecker backwards in the sand.
Richard
Sort of like a bungy jumper jumping off a bridge...
the bridge being the stuck bus (vehicle) and the vehicle doing the pulling, being the jumper!
HMM... I can see it now.
Picture this!
Pulling vehicle takes off from a dead stop hitting somewhere in the neghborhood of 50mph plus, stretching this tow rope (bungy cord) and comes to a another dead stop at the end of the rope and even leaves the ground, THEN, all of sudden, the pulling vehicle starts a return trip back towards the stuck bus. I sure hope the rope is long enough so as to not hit the bus! THAT could be devastating!
Yea I can see where the driver of the pulling vehicle would think it's fun! ;D
Ace
Its all great until someone gets hurt. Anytime you are depending on a glorified elastic band to get you out of the glue I think its time to go find a bigger tractor. IMHO
Hey ACE, you hit it on the head. A very good example of how it works. The nice thing about it is that with a 100 foot line and then another 50 feet of stretch the chances of the tow vehicle coming back all the way to the bus is very slim. Especially since it is sitting there with all four wheels spinning trying to move forward.
Richard
Quote from: Ace on October 30, 2006, 11:47:48 AM
Sort of like a bungy jumper jumping off a bridge...
the bridge being the stuck bus (vehicle) and the vehicle doing the pulling, being the jumper!
HMM... I can see it now.
Picture this!
Pulling vehicle takes off from a dead stop hitting somewhere in the neghborhood of 50mph plus, stretching this tow rope (bungy cord) and comes to a another dead stop at the end of the rope and even leaves the ground, THEN, all of sudden, the pulling vehicle starts a return trip back towards the stuck bus. I sure hope the rope is long enough so as to not hit the bus! THAT could be devastating!
Yea I can see where the driver of the pulling vehicle would think it's fun! ;D
Ace
Quote from: DrivingMissLazy on October 30, 2006, 08:23:52 AM
BK, a tow strap is not in the same class as a nylon line. It will not stretch. At least not enough to be of any benefit. I have tried everything in the sand dunes and in some mud bogs and nothing available even comes close to the nylon line. It is really amazing to watch. You see the slack come out of the nylon line and then you expect a jerk of some kind, but nothing happens. The tow vehicle just keeps going for what appears to be another 50 feet or so, then the bus just seems to kinda start moving. No jerk at all.
Richard
Richard 1st off I've only been around, owned & worked tow trucks ALL my life, so I'm sure I know less than anyone on the board about getting vehicles unstuck!
Second I worded my post incorrectly as the "Tow strap" I bought is actually a rope! it is very heavy duty! As I said B4 if the ARMY uses 'm I guarantee they are strong enough for any of our uses! BK ;D
Quote from: DrivingMissLazy on October 30, 2006, 10:02:23 AM
My son used to make lots of spare change pulling people out when we went to Glamis or Pismo Beach. In many cases it was after a wrecker had tried and failed. The winch on a wrecker would just pull the wrecker backwards in the sand.
Richard
With an experienced operator the wrecker should never leave with the disabled vehicle stuck! BK
Have you ever tried to retrieve a motor home on a beach with the tide coming in and the M/H actually with the wheels covered in ocean?
In this case the wrecker actually had two big truck tires and he backed up on them to try and keep the wrecker from sliding back down the sand dune while he used his winch, but to no avail.
We were able to retrieve the motor home with the tow line. Fortunately it was a front engine M/H so that it could keep going after we got it started. We then towed it all the way to the beach entrance ramp as the wet sand was all covered with water and we had to get out over the dry dune sand.
Over the years I saw several vehicles inundated with the incoming tide. Not really a pretty picture.
Richard
Quote from: Busted Knuckle on October 30, 2006, 02:29:55 PM
With an experienced operator the wrecker should never leave with the disabled vehicle stuck! BK
Hey Jim, thanks for giving me credit for that. I know it is not copywrited or patented, but you have my permission anyhow to publish it. LOL
Richard
Quote from: H3Jim on October 29, 2006, 05:21:24 PM
Sometime ago I traded messages with Driving Miss Lazy regarding good ways of getting a stuck bus out of the sand. First, I am happy to report that I have not yet had the privilege of getting my bus stuck.
DML suggested stretchy rope so that the towing vehicle can get a running start, and since the rope stretches, it won't yank the axles off, or bumpers or whatever you have tied it to.
In preparation for the awful day when I do become stuck (I go to the desert all the time) I purchased a 60 foot length of 1" marine rope that has 15% stretch in it. 30,000 lbs breaking strength. I always carry it with me. This last weekend, I used it to tow out motor homes with trailers, trucks and camping trailers etc. I used a friends truck so I didn't have to get the bus in the sand. I am now a great believer, and so are most of my friends about using a stretchy rope to tow with. One group of folks was using a flat nylon tow strap to tow out a big class A with trailer, when the strap broke, it took out the motor home's radiator. When they got out a chain I was afraid they would do some real damage so I went over and lent them my rope. they had been working for several hours to try to get the unit out, but the rope just popped the out in several minutes. ( I had been away from camp when they were originally stuck or I would have helped them sooner, before the radiator got trashed.)
Its really remarkable how well it works. My only issue is being able to find the big stuff at a reasonable price, I paid a lot from the marine store for this - although still less than a tow if I ever need it.
The main point of this post is to let everyone know the dramatic difference there is in using something that gives as opposed to chain or other non stretchy stuff. Much safer, way more effective.
DML - LOL Thanks for your permission!
It still seems a controversial topic, but you are right, once you see it work with even a little bit of stretch, its really amazing and will make a believer out of anyone. As you know, getting stuck in the sand, especally deep sand, is a very different type of stuck than most folks encounter. Did you ever have a rope break?
NO, I never saw a rope break, that is why I think a one inch rope is plenty big.
And you are absolutely correct, getting stuck in soft sand is really something else. Especially if there is no firm ground to get the tow vehicle on. Have to send BK to Glamis or Pismo Beach sometime. LOL
I have had a rope come unhooked a couple of times, till we learned a surefire method to prevent it, but even then the rope end never even came close to coming back to the bus. I think because it is so long and the end of the rope is just not heavy enough to fly back that far.
Richard
Quote from: H3Jim on October 31, 2006, 07:06:06 AM
DML - LOL Thanks for your permission!
It still seems a controversial topic, but you are right, once you see it work with even a little bit of stretch, its really amazing and will make a believer out of anyone. As you know, getting stuck in the sand, especially deep sand, is a very different type of stuck than most folks encounter. Did you ever have a rope break?
I've seen so many vehicles destroyed trying to cross pismo creek its ridiculous - IF you ever go there park north of the creek and hike in - FWIW
Quote from: DrivingMissLazy on October 31, 2006, 09:20:44 AM
And you are absolutely correct, getting stuck in soft sand is really something else. Have to send BK to Glamis or Pismo Beach sometime.
Richard I've been to both! I've been on the beachs in NY, NC, SC, GA, FL, AL, MS, TX, OR, WA and inland beachs around the Great Lakes and many others too! If there's water I'm drawn too it!
But I've never left a vehicle stuck!!! I've had to call in for proper equipment after being lied to before I left out on a job such as someone telling me it's just a small camper right off the road barley stuck! But when ya get there it's a Prevost and a toad baried to the chasis 200 yards from the road or such. Off road recovery callers usually come clean when I tell them look I'm only gonna bring the equipment required to do what you describe to me, and if I get there and it's totally different I'll call in for proper equipment & the clock will run on all equipment until the job is done! ANd if they don't (or won't) pay up when done we get the sheriif out there and impound the vehicle until all fees are paid including the impound & storage fees! After being told that they usually tell us it's yada yada yada too be sure the job is able to be done fast, easy & cheap as possible!
I've done sand recoveries too we have an awesome Off Road Recreation Area in LBL (land between the lakes) call Turkey Bay that has ALL types of terrain a person could want all in 1 place! And yes I've even had my own four wheel drive I built just for going back into the back woods/waters of Turkey Bay stuck after trailering it there behind a wrecker to do a job! But B4 I left everything we were after was unstuck!
If an experienced operator nows the correct information at the time a call is made for help he can (and should) bring the right equipment to do the job right the first time! Also if an operator is experinced he should have an idea what to ask as soon as the person tells him where they are stuck! Like me usually I never go to Turkey Bay without towing the Bronco with 3/4 ton axles 513 gears w/air locking differentails, 48" Super Swamper tires, 12,000 # winch front and rear, 460 V8 bored & stroked to 512 CU with a pair of Predator carbs on top, a toploader 4 speed, with a transfer case out of a 5 ton military truck mated to it! I've only stuck it once, but it took 2 wreckers, and a D9 dozer to drag the wreckers in and out and also pull while the wreckers did to get it out! And I shouldn't admit this but I stuck it while playing on a family outting and was showing off and had to leave it stuck overnight (we were camped out there anyway) and call for our wreckers the next day and had to have a friend bring his dozer tobe sure we could get the wreckers in and out without damage! Trust me it took a while to live that 1 down!
Quote from: DrivingMissLazy on October 30, 2006, 05:28:34 PM
Have you ever tried to retrieve a motor home on a beach with the tide coming in and the M/H actually with the wheels covered in ocean?
In this case the wrecker actually had two big truck tires and he backed up on them to try and keep the wrecker from sliding back down the sand dune while he used his winch, but to no avail.
We were able to retrieve the motor home with the tow line. Fortunately it was a front engine M/H so that it could keep going after we got it started. We then towed it all the way to the beach entrance ramp as the wet sand was all covered with water and we had to get out over the dry dune sand.
Over the years I saw several vehicles inundated with the incoming tide. Not really a pretty picture.
Richard
Again Richard if the wrecker operator knew the whole story at the time of the call an experinced operator would've brought the proper equipment ! I have oversized chock blocks. that when hooked to the tail board of the wrecker they will eventually stop that truck from moving! I once was pulling a bobtail semi tractoer out of the sand and baried the tow truck donw to where the tail board was digging in but I got him unstuck and drove out too!
Also you wanna see stuck just let my buddy Dan and his friends get to drinking while they are working on building a pond or a levee on a farm and see how bad they can stick a D9 or track hoe or any other piece of equipment (or all of them on the job) B4 calling for help! (works out good when I need a dozer or such! LOL!)
This is my military tow strap it strecthes about it's length, and I also have some heavy duty recovery straps made just for the towing industry! one of them is 18" wide and 12' long! But I use this one the most! Like I said if the military uses 'm they most be tough! I know I've neve had a problem with it! BK
That looks like the right material if it doubles in length when stretched, but it needs to be 10 times longer to do the job that has been discussed. Saw many like yours that were totally useless in the deep soft sand.
Richard
Quote from: Busted Knuckle on October 31, 2006, 01:16:01 PM
This is my military tow strap it strecthes about it's length, and I also have some heavy duty recovery straps made just for the towing industry! one of them is 18" wide and 12' long! But I use this one the most! Like I said if the military uses 'm they most be tough! I know I've neve had a problem with it! BK
Richard I've been to both! I've been on the beachs in NY, NC, SC, GA, FL, AL, MS, TX, OR, WA and inland beachs around the Great Lakes and many others too! If there's water I'm drawn too it!
Being there and actually working on the extremely soft and deep sand on the beach is a lot different. I have no doubt that you have done this, but at either Glamas or Pismo the proper equipment that you are talking about is hundreds of miles away.
But I've never left a vehicle stuck!!! I've had to call in for proper equipment after being lied to before I left out on a job such as someone telling me it's just a small camper right off the road barley stuck! But when ya get there it's a Prevost and a toad baried to the chasis 200 yards from the road or such. Off road recovery callers usually come clean when I tell them look I'm only gonna bring the equipment required to do what you describe to me, and if I get there and it's totally different I'll call in for proper equipment & the clock will run on all equipment until the job is done! ANd if they don't (or won't) pay up when done we get the sheriif out there and impound the vehicle until all fees are paid including the impound & storage fees! After being told that they usually tell us it's yada yada yada too be sure the job is able to be done fast, easy & cheap as possible!
The proper equipment that you describe is literally not available, at least not in time to prevent it being totally inundated by the ocean.
I've done sand recoveries too we have an awesome Off Road Recreation Area in LBL (land between the lakes) call Turkey Bay that has ALL types of terrain a person could want all in 1 place! And yes I've even had my own four wheel drive I built just for going back into the back woods/waters of Turkey Bay stuck after trailering it there behind a wrecker to do a job! But B4 I left everything we were after was unstuck!
If an experienced operator nows the correct information at the time a call is made for help he can (and should) bring the right equipment to do the job right the first time! Also if an operator is experinced he should have an idea what to ask as soon as the person tells him where they are stuck! Like me usually I never go to Turkey Bay without towing the Bronco with 3/4 ton axles 513 gears w/air locking differentails, 48" Super Swamper tires, 12,000 # winch front and rear, 460 V8 bored & stroked to 512 CU with a pair of Predator carbs on top, a toploader 4 speed, with a transfer case out of a 5 ton military truck mated to it! I've only stuck it once, but it took 2 wreckers, and a D9 dozer to drag the wreckers in and out and also pull while the wreckers did to get it out! And I shouldn't admit this but I stuck it while playing on a family outting and was showing off and had to leave it stuck overnight (we were camped out there anyway) and call for our wreckers the next day and had to have a friend bring his dozer tobe sure we could get the wreckers in and out without damage! Trust me it took a while to live that 1 down!
Due to the layout at Pismo I doubt if you could even get the equipment you are talking about in there when the tide is partially in even it it was available. All that is available in those areas are regular automotive wreckers, and they do not stand a chance in many cases. Many times they are successful, but the few times that they are not is what always created the major problems.
Richard
Here's my tow rope :D
Craig,
Your rope looks to be just a tad short. ;D
My family and I spent a lot of time every summer at Pismo during the 80's before they closed so much of it down and started restricting the number of campers allowed.
Like you we saw an awful lot of vehicles damaged either by getting out too far or trying to cross the creek. We always timed our arrival and departure for close to dead low tide and never had any problem getting in or out. Then driving as fast as we could we would make a dash for the dunes and go till we got stuck. That was where we then camped and used the magic rope to get us out when we were ready to depart. Lots of fun in those good ole days. Sand rails with paddle tires and lots of three wheelers. Before the day of the four wheeler.
Richard
Quote from: niles500 on October 31, 2006, 11:50:55 AM
I've seen so many vehicles destroyed trying to cross pismo creek its ridiculous - IF you ever go there park north of the creek and hike in - FWIW
Quote from: Connel on October 31, 2006, 07:25:25 PM
Your rope looks to be just a tad short. ;D
I like true bumper-to-bumper pulling power :D
Craig I'm on dialup so your pix took forever to load. As I was watching the expanse of tabletop unfold I was expecting to see a AAA card appear. That's my towrope - GoodSam card in my wallet.
Wouldn't be of much help to you if you are stuck at waters edge and the tide is coming in and the nearest heavy duty towing place is hours away, if they would even consider going out on the beach. Most tow trucks will not. Especially if they are not four wheel drive.
Richard
Quote from: bobofthenorth on October 31, 2006, 07:58:37 PM
Craig I'm on dialup so your pix took forever to load. As I was watching the expanse of tabletop unfold I was expecting to see a AAA card appear. That's my towrope - GoodSam card in my wallet.
Sorry for the large photo. I should have cropped it. I'll do that tonight and reedit the post if I don't forget about it.
BTW, those are Starburst candies next to it.
This was a remnamt of 1" rope I had from the last time I built a tow rope for myself.
Anyone know where I can buy nylon rope in 1" - 2" sizes? I've considered making some up for sale. There are a lot of
hunters around here who don't know much about getting unstuck once they leave the blacktop.
Sure is a pretty weaving job Gumpy. What are starburst candles?
Richard
CAND-I-E-S, not cand-L-E-S. You eat them, not burn them. ::)
Starburst fruit chews. Makes mouths happy! or some such advertisement.... :D
Thanks for the compliment. That's something I picked up a long time ago. Dates back to my sheep docking days when I was in Junior High School. I watched a Mexican sheep herder repair a hemp rope on a tarp one morning. I had never seen anything like it. That evening, when I got home, I got a couple pieces of rope and played with it till I figured it out. A couple years later, we did a whole section on ropes and knots in Vo-Ag class. I used to know a lot about knots used for climbing and rescue and such, but sadly, I haven't used it much in the last couple decades, and most of it's gone. Braiding is kind of like riding a bicycle, though.
BTW, a quick search turned up one place online that sells 3 strand nylon rope by the foot. 1" = $2.75 (22,600 lbs breaking strength), 1 1/2" = $6.45 (53,000 lbs), 2" = $10.75 (92,000 lbs). If anyone would like a towrope made up, contact me offline. I might could be convinced to braid up a line and ship it to you. You could attach your own chain and hook.
I found the best thing to use to attach the rope is a clevis I think it is called. About 3/4 inch round steel shaped like a big
U with a place to screw a bolt thru it. Must be big enough to go thru the loop in the rope and then around the rope after you have looped it around a tow point.
BTW, I usually use my butane torch to melt the individual strands of the rope until they melt into a solid mass. Keeps them from unravelling.
Richard
Quote from: gumpy on November 01, 2006, 05:07:11 AM
CAND-I-E-S, not cand-L-E-S. You eat them, not burn them. ::)
Starburst fruit chews. Makes mouths happy! or some such advertisement.... :D
Thanks for the compliment. That's something I picked up a long time ago. Dates back to my sheep docking days when I was in Junior High School. I watched a Mexican sheep herder repair a hemp rope on a tarp one morning. I had never seen anything like it. That evening, when I got home, I got a couple pieces of rope and played with it till I figured it out. A couple years later, we did a whole section on ropes and knots in Vo-Ag class. I used to know a lot about knots used for climbing and rescue and such, but sadly, I haven't used it much in the last couple decades, and most of it's gone. Braiding is kind of like riding a bicycle, though.
BTW, a quick search turned up one place online that sells 3 strand nylon rope by the foot. 1" = $2.75 (22,600 lbs breaking strength), 1 1/2" = $6.45 (53,000 lbs), 2" = $10.75 (92,000 lbs). If anyone would like a towrope made up, contact me offline. I might could be convinced to braid up a line and ship it to you. You could attach your own chain and hook.
Yeah, we always attach about 2' of chain w/ hook to the roop ends with a clevis. The downside there is that if you're not careful, the hook and come unhooked while you're walking back to the driver's seat. That's when things get broke and people get injured!
We also use a torch to melt the ends. Wearing a glove, we shape the molten nylon into a round, tapered nub. Makes weaving a lot easier if you get it smooth before it cools. If you leave it rough, it snags the individual nylon strands and make it a real pain. The black tape is there to keep the strands together while unraveling and melting, until you can get it all woven back together.
This would be a good thing to teach at a bus rally seminar sometime. It's always a good skill to have when you need it.
Bob,
good Sam towing policy excludes off road towing, so you'd be on your own.
Gumpy
I got my 1" rope with 15% stretch from West Marine. Pricey, but I had to have it. It was about $3 a foot.
Quote from: gumpy on November 01, 2006, 05:49:09 AM
Wearing a glove, we shape the molten nylon into a round, tapered nub.
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Excellent point Gumpy that I forgot to mention. Once you try it without gloves you will never try it thay way again. Do not ask me how I know. LOL
Richard
Quote from: DrivingMissLazy on November 01, 2006, 08:59:36 AM
Quote from: gumpy on November 01, 2006, 05:49:09 AM
Wearing a glove, we shape the molten nylon into a round, tapered nub.
[/size][/color]
Excellent point Gumpy that I forgot to mention. Once you try it without gloves you will never try it thay way again. Do not ask me how I know. LOL
Richard
OK, I won't ask :D :D
BTDT.
One thing I've found out, I don't ever have to worry about someone telling me I have hairy knuckles. I keep running the torch across them! ::)
A word of caution. If anyone is planning on building one of these items, be sure you use true nylon rope. It should be three strand to enable weaving an eye in each end. And make sure it is not some type of plastic or propylene rope. The white nylon is very soft as compared to the plastic line that is relatively much harder.
Richard
Quote from: DrivingMissLazy on November 02, 2006, 11:42:13 AM
A word of caution. If anyone is planning on building one of these items, be sure you use true nylon rope. It should be three strand to enable weaving an eye in each end. And make sure it is not some type of plastic or propylene rope. The white nylon is very soft as compared to the plastic line that is relatively much harder.
Richard
Finally a topic i deem myself qualified to comment on, (Too bad its not about Busses ::) )
Richard is correct regarding Nylon, Do not confuse it with Dacron Line, which is also soft and white. Best Bet is to buy your rope through a marine shop if you really want to be sure of the Specs.
Richard: With Regard to the three strand comment, Although easier to splice, Particularly less than 1", It isn't as strong as a doublebraid layup of the same type of nylon. Laypersons can splice doublebraid, But you have to pay attention to where you cut the jacket. Several manufactures have splicing instructions, and kits, or you can google it depending on the cover layup, An eye splice is always preferable to knot!
BK: Albeit short for the Bungee application, i would hazard that you have a "Double Braided" Nylon Tow strap with an eye spliced into it. Not as simple as the three strand eye splice, but much more serviceable, Just look at the Mooring lines on any smaller vessel. Dont see three strand used much above 1" although its elongation characteristics are good, It just dosent have the loading capability of the double braid. Lemme give you an apples to apples on Nylon 3 strand V Nylon Double braid. 1" 3 strand Tensile strength 29,400 Lbs 1" Nylon Double Braid 34,000 lbs if you go with a multi-Braid composite, You can get a 1" with a tensile strength rating around 70,000 Lbs, but it is a Low Elongation construct (Dosen't Stretch much) Also, To contrast the increse in tensile strength, a 1.5 (36mm) double braid rope is close to 70,000 Lbs tensile strength
Remember tensile does not equate safe, usually a multiplication factor of 5-10 for figuring for noncrit apps, and 15% for critcal apps.
Don't have any comments regarding throwing a tire on the line, Just remember the basics, Stand 90 degrees to the direction of tension, Stay out of the bight if using a fairlead, and remember, even if your the flash, the snapback is too fast to avoid, so be aware. All synthetic lines have a Kill Zone for snapback, The Sea Going Services spend millions a year on training in an effort to keep the poor deckies from getting dead! Do a google on synthetic line snapback if you want to know more, and read to your hearts content.
Thanks in advance for letting me pretend to be a "Boats" again
Jim
Good stuff, Jim! I liked it.
For what it's worth, we use a similar snubber to keep from losing aur anchor gear if the winch should run away. Our winch does not have a manual brake, so if the engine quits while lowering the hook in deep water, we could get a runaway. If that should happen, getting out of the kill zone is what we will concentrate on.
One day, we will build a brake onto the winch.
Tom Caffrey
Suncatcher
Ketchikan, Alaska
Did anyone see the Mythbusters show on being cut in two by the broken cable? According to them, it can't happen. Of course their test is pretty bad as usual; they took the cable up to rated load, not failure, and cut it.
Quote from: Lee Bradley on November 09, 2006, 10:13:29 AM
Did anyone see the Mythbusters show on being cut in two by the broken cable? According to them, it can't happen. Of course their test is pretty bad as usual; they took the cable up to rated load, not failure, and cut it.
I like watching that Show....Kinda lets you put your brain in neutral
anyhow, Remember, snapback with wire, cable, glass etc, is always in the direction to which force is being applied, from the point of failure. I wonder if they showed the movie, or clips from the navy safety office "Synthetic line snapback" I don't personally know of anyone cut in half, (I could be lying, But it's not like they would accuse me ;D ) but i do know a guy that had a leg amputated below the knee, from being in the bight.
That movie and the forrestal movie were always annual events with most deck safety officers.
Oh Yeah, My point is this... Unless you happen to be crossing, stepping, straddling (Moron) the cable, rope, line, the odds of getting cut in half would be pretty phenomenal. But i still wouldnt want to get hit with a couple of hundreds of pounds of material, even with its stored energy mostly used up.
Be Smart and know your danger zones.
Jim
I thought the cable rated load was the safe load limit. This would take into consideration the stretch & ensuing recoil if it breaks. this alone would make cutting one at rated load a useless test for nasty recoil.
If someone inspects the cable & only uses it at or below rated load, they probably will never have a catastrophic failure. However, I have mis-used cables by overloading them & when you do that, yor are lucky if you don't get what you deserve. I know I was! ;D
I think the point of whether the cable breaking and killing you or not is kind of moot. If the cable they were using snapped and wrapped itself around you, most likely you would wish you were dead anyway.
Also, the poor little piggy they were testing with finally did meet his demise when they wrapped the cable around him and jerked it taut with the loader.
Obviously, that little piggy shoulda stood home!
BUSTED KNUCKLE......I saw your photo of the military strap. THat is NOT rated to pull your bus. It has alot hardware attached that could kill or worse injure(head trauma) anyone in it's path. Those straps were used to suspend 2000-4000 lb items under a helicopter. they are not 40,000lb rigs. I have used them to snatch 2-3 ton vehicles from the mud, snow.. I would not use them to attempt to move a bus. I haven't fully read the above posts , just wanted to let you know before someone gets hurt. .......
If anyone would like to have a big rope, I'll make an offer to weave eyes in one for cost, plus a few bucks for beer ;) .
I found a supplier that will sell me cut lengths of rope (min 200 ft) for $1.95/ft for 1 1/4" (33,800 lbs test), $2.75/ft for 1 1/2" (47,800 lbs test). Safe working load is 10%-15% of test. I can get 1" and 2", also.
I will weave the loops. Ataching clevises and chain, will be up to the buyer. You decide how long you want it.
You can contact me offline if interested.
craig
Quote from: gumpy on November 11, 2006, 11:45:38 AM
If anyone would like to have a big rope, I'll make an offer to weave eyes in one for cost, plus a few bucks for beer ;) .
I found a supplier that will sell me cut lengths of rope (min 200 ft) for $1.95/ft for 1 1/4" (33,800 lbs test), $2.75/ft for 1 1/2" (47,800 lbs test). Safe working load is 10%-15% of test. I can get 1" and 2", also.
I will weave the loops. Ataching clevises and chain, will be up to the buyer. You decide how long you want it.
You can contact me offline if interested.
craig
I would advise not going up to the larger sizes as I believe you would lose the elastic stretch quality that is the secret of the operation.
Richard
Anyone have any idea of how much pull is exerted to pull out a 40,000 lb stuck in the sand bus? Its only pulling it, not lifting it.
DML, maybe that's related to a 3000 lb Toyota truck doing 20 miles an hour in order to pul your stuff out.
Quote from: DrivingMissLazy on November 11, 2006, 11:50:47 AM
Quote from: gumpy on November 11, 2006, 11:45:38 AM
If anyone would like to have a big rope, I'll make an offer to weave eyes in one for cost, plus a few bucks for beer ;) .
I found a supplier that will sell me cut lengths of rope (min 200 ft) for $1.95/ft for 1 1/4" (33,800 lbs test), $2.75/ft for 1 1/2" (47,800 lbs test). Safe working load is 10%-15% of test. I can get 1" and 2", also.
I will weave the loops. Ataching clevises and chain, will be up to the buyer. You decide how long you want it.
You can contact me offline if interested.
craig
I would advise not going up to the larger sizes as I believe you would lose the elastic stretch quality that is the secret of the operation.
Richard
I think the elongation characteristic (Elastic Stretch) is a function of materials and construct, Not Size
YMMV
Jim
Quote from: H3Jim on November 11, 2006, 01:31:38 PM
Anyone have any idea of how much pull is exerted to pull out a 40,000 lb stuck in the sand bus? Its only pulling it, not lifting it.
DML, maybe that's related to a 3000 lb Toyota truck doing 20 miles an hour in order to pul your stuff out.
Wonder where Clarke Echols is when we need him? LOL
Richard