My 2010 starts and run fine. It gets up to operating temp and then cycles down. Problem is, it wont restart again when it cools off. Figure I would ask here before I call them tomorrow and get their thoughts on it. I kinda woke up in the middle of the night rather frigid. ;)
When you talk to Webasto customer service, ask them to email you the service manual. You can troubleshoot anything with that. That's how I got mine,
JC
My DW 2010 was doing the exact same thing-- it turned out I needed a new controller. I spent a lot of time making sure all the connections to the controller were snug to no avail; but that is where you start before you put out $500 plus for a new controller.
You need to get the service manual and follow the troubleshooting step by step. It wants you to have a special tester, but you can get by with a voltmeter and some jumpers if you know what you are doing.
Too many possibilities to go through them all here. And you did not give us enough information, such as what style of thermal cutoff you have, and under what conditions you can eventually restart it. That said, on the surface, it sounds like a circulation problem to me -- insufficient coolant flow. Check your plumbing and your pump.
HTH,
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com (http://ourodyssey.blogspot.com)
It has worked fine for a while. I hadnt used it overnight in a few months, but I had run it. It runs fine, circulation should be fine...there are 2 pumps. The OEM one and an external one of the firewall. Thermal cutoff is whatever comes with it default. All I have to do to restart it is to turn the switch off and then turn it back on.
I will check coolant flow tomorrow but I dont see how that could possibly be it in this case.
Quote from: opus on March 26, 2012, 05:45:37 PM
... All I have to do to restart it is to turn the switch off and then turn it back on. ...
Ah, I misunderstood what you meant when you said that it would not restart after cooling down.
When did you last clean the flame sensor?
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com (http://ourodyssey.blogspot.com)
Gee...not long ago. When it shuts off, thats it...its done. It doesnt try to restart or do anything. Its hooked to an Iota power supply so voltage surely isnt it. It just does its one cycle, correctly and then quits properly but doesnt make an attempt to restart.
I've run it a bunch through the night of course. It runs, cycles off....a little while later, fires up again. Does that all through the night with no issues....until now. ;)
When my controller went out the unit would start fine but had trouble restarting after the heater shut down and the temp cooled down to the point it should have fired back up-- instead of firing back up it would just pass unburnt fuel out the exhaust and make a big mess under the bus. I'm sure one if the relays was bad in the controller but I did not have the resources to mess with the board. I got lucky and found a good used controller for $200+ shipping on eBay.
You can download the manuals from the Sure Marine website.
Quote from: opus on March 26, 2012, 06:59:40 PM
Gee...not long ago. When it shuts off, thats it...its done. It doesnt try to restart or do anything. ...
Even though you say it was cleaned recently, I would start by looking at the flame sensor. If the flame sensor shuts the unit down while running, the unit will not restart until it is power cycled. Sometimes you can hear the ignitor clicking during this process (even though the burner is already running).
If that's not it, you'll have to step through the troubleshooting. As I said, it will call for you to use a tester box, which does nothing more than substitute lights and switches for the relays in the expensive control box. You can make one yourself, or just use a VOM and some clip leads to achieve the same thing. It's possible that, like Geoff, you have a sticky relay in the box.
While Webasto likes to pretend there is sophisticated electronics in that box, making it worth nearly $500, it's really just a handful of relays and a couple of discreet components. It is possible to carefully pry the box open and either replace individual relays, or squirt some contact cleaner in them. Sticky relays are probably the most common failure mode for the control boxes.
HTH,
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com (http://ourodyssey.blogspot.com)
Good to know. I will take it apart this week if it dries off some. I have heard plenty about the control boxes. If need be I would take it apart and repair it, with the help of a local guy. You think someone would have come up with a workaround for the expensive control box.
Webasto says it sounds like the control stat...maybe loose wires. He said if it was the flame eye, it wouldnt restart again.
Seems to be working now. Tightened the wires up, not that they were loose.
Might have a dirty relay inside the control box. Tell me about opening the box. Anyone got pics? Can I clean these relays at all? I have a very handy electronics geek at my disposal.
I just fixed one for someone that had the same symptoms.
It was a bad (cracked solder) connection on the printed circuit board at the low voltage cut out relay.
I suspect that there was enough resistance in the connection that after it ran for a time the voltage drop to the relay was enough that it dropped out, locking out the unit. Then it would restart after it (the relay) cooled off.
Like has been said before, get the service manual for troubleshooting just because this was the problem with this webasto unit doesn't mean that it is the problem with yours. It has a good flow chart to follow for troubleshooting. I have a PDF version if you PM me, I will email it to you.
I was able to carefully pry the controller open to access to inspect/repair after it was determined the problem had to be the controller. This also after finding out a new controller was going to be $500+ with shipping.
Larry
I've got a manual, thank you. I have done all the troubleshooting. Talked with Webasto themselves....who are extremely helpful. All seems to be working fine now. I still believe there are minor issues inside the control box. If there are any remaining problems, it is in the control box. Everything else is fine. Can you clean the relays in there or what are your options? I wouldnt be surprised if it had dust in it. We are gravel road people so everything is dusty.
Good luck. I took my box apart and figured out how it worked and was even able to jump past the bad circuits to make it work-- that got me home but when I found a good used control box on eBay I bought it and everthing is well now. I was able to take the box apart and identify the offending parts but I did not have ther resources to identify and order the replacement parts. Maybe Sean would be willing to take our control boxes and fix them for us...
I was trying to find pics of the insides but couldnt find any. If I take this apart I will document it well.
Nope, still same issue.
If I start the unit when all is cold, it will run as it should all day long. If I drive for 6 hrs, park, turn it on while engine is still hot...to keep coolant hot so we can have heat for the night, it will run its short cycle [because the coolant is hot]. In just a couple minutes, it does its cool down cycle and that is it. It wont start again until you flip the switch off and on. Its not the photo eye, its not voltage, its not the temp sensor. If it was the photo eye, it would try to restart but would shut down after a a little bit of trying.
Ideas?
Quote from: opus on May 01, 2012, 01:05:35 PM
...
If I start the unit when all is cold, it will run as it should all day long.
That part has me confused. I'm not sure how starting from cold would be any different from starting hot...
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If I drive for 6 hrs, park, turn it on while engine is still hot...to keep coolant hot so we can have heat for the night, it will run its short cycle [because the coolant is hot].
And that part does not make sense, unless the unit is miswired. If the coolant is already hot (>165°F), then the unit should not fire at all. The control thermostat should not be calling for it to fire. If your engine and hydronic systems are separated by a heat exchanger, though, it is possible that the hydronic coolant is cooler than the cut-in temperature of the control thermostat, in which case it would cycle on, but it should run a full cycle (about the same cycle time as when it is normal operation but already up to operating temperature, as opposed to the much longer cycle from a cold start).
Quote
In just a couple minutes, it does its cool down cycle and that is it. It wont start again until you flip the switch off and on. Its not the photo eye, its not voltage, its not the temp sensor. If it was the photo eye, it would try to restart but would shut down after a a little bit of trying.
That last statement is not correct. If the flame sensor (photo eye) ever shuts the unit down at any time, the unit will not re-fire until it has been power cycled. I wrote this in my first post here, and then you wrote that Webasto also told you the same thing:
Quote from: opus on March 27, 2012, 08:18:38 AM
Webasto says ... if it was the flame eye, it wouldnt restart again.
If the flame sensor is perfectly clean, and all the wires are tight, you should test it with an ohmmeter. The specs for what you should read under various conditions are listed in the service manual.
If it is not the flame sensor, it is most likely the control box. Sticky relays can be hard to troubleshoot because they are often intermittent. If you could borrow a working control box for testing, that might narrow it down.
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com (http://ourodyssey.blogspot.com)
Interesting, Sean describes closely what mine was doing in Cloudcroft that I wrote about in the other thread. However, I could not duplicate it again when I got back home after the trip. I probably need to crack it open and give it a thorough cleaning.
David
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That part has me confused. I'm not sure how starting from cold would be any different from starting hot...
Exactly, thats what I thought.
Quote
If I drive for 6 hrs, park, turn it on while engine is still hot...to keep coolant hot so we can have heat for the night, it will run its short cycle [because the coolant is hot].
Quote
And that part does not make sense, unless the unit is miswired. If the coolant is already hot (>165°F), then the unit should not fire at all. The control thermostat should not be calling for it to fire. If your engine and hydronic systems are separated by a heat exchanger, though, it is possible that the hydronic coolant is cooler than the cut-in temperature of the control thermostat, in which case it would cycle on, but it should run a full cycle (about the same cycle time as when it is normal operation but already up to operating temperature, as opposed to the much longer cycle from a cold start).
The unit is not miswired and according to Webasto, the ohm details I gave them are correct. I do think there is a heat exchanger involved. When it does fire with warm coolant, it runs a short cycle then runs a cool down cycle.
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In just a couple minutes, it does its cool down cycle and that is it. It wont start again until you flip the switch off and on. Its not the photo eye, its not voltage, its not the temp sensor. If it was the photo eye, it would try to restart but would shut down after a a little bit of trying.
Quote
That last statement is not correct. If the flame sensor (photo eye) ever shuts the unit down at any time, the unit will not re-fire until it has been power cycled. I wrote this in my first post here, and then you wrote that Webasto also told you the same thing:
Webasto says ... if it was the flame eye, it wouldnt restart again.
The eye was dirty. I meant it wasnt a bad photo eye. You are saying it wouldnt try to restart itself without a power cycle...ok, got it. But if the eye was dirty, why would it fire again after I power cycled it? And again, why would it run all day long if I started it from a cold state?
Quote
If the flame sensor is perfectly clean, and all the wires are tight, you should test it with an ohmmeter. The specs for what you should read under various conditions are listed in the service manual.
If it is not the flame sensor, it is most likely the control box. Sticky relays can be hard to troubleshoot because they are often intermittent. If you could borrow a working control box for testing, that might narrow it down.
The whole issue is that it does it when the coolant has gone above the shutoff temp for the unit. If I only used it as a starting aid on a cold engine, I would never have noticed this issue.
Again-- its either the control module or loose connections/plugs at the module. I have spent countless hours playing with the system and diagnosing this and that and a new control bosx fixed my same problem.
Ugh, thats what I am thinking too.
Quote from: opus on May 01, 2012, 05:07:58 PM
...
The eye was dirty. I meant it wasnt a bad photo eye. You are saying it wouldnt try to restart itself without a power cycle...ok, got it. But if the eye was dirty, why would it fire again after I power cycled it?
Well, I can tell you from experience that a partially obscured flame sensor *will* allow the unit to run, intermittently. Unless it is obstructed completely, a dirty sensor will have a varying resistance while the unit is running, dependent on many factors including the actual brightness of the flame, the vortex in the combustion chamber, and possibly the phase of the moon. At some point, the resistance will indicate to the control box that the flame has gone out, even though it hasn't. The unit will then cool down, shut down, and remain off until power cycled. Power cycling allows the whole process to start all over again.
Again, this is from
direct experience, not theory.
QuoteAnd again, why would it run all day long if I started it from a cold state?
That's the part I am having trouble understanding. But without seeing a complete wiring diagram of your system, it's hard to diagnose remotely.
Do you have such a diagram?
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com (http://ourodyssey.blogspot.com)
Sean--
If I send you my broken control module could you diagnose/fix it for me? You say they are quite simple. I would be quite happy to pay you for your services.
--Geoff
The eye was dirty enough with a black film over it that I used carb cleaner on it and not just a rag. My wiring diagram is exactly what is in the manual. Webasto asked me a bunch of questions and had me verify wiring, and he was pleased with my answers. I guess give me an idea where you are going and I might be able to answer better.
Quote from: Geoff on May 01, 2012, 07:03:42 PM
If I send you my broken control module could you diagnose/fix it for me? You say they are quite simple. I would be quite happy to pay you for your services.
OK, so "quite simple" is perhaps an overstatement. What I meant was that there's not anything overly sophisticated in there -- it's really just a bunch of low-tech relays and a couple of discreet components that steer some signals around. Webasto likes to pretend it's some kind of magic electronic device, especially when they are billing you for one.
If we happened to cross paths someplace, I would be more than happy to help you diagnose and repair your control module. My experience is that the vast majority of problems are due to sticky relays, and often can be cured either by spraying contact cleaner in them, or else by carefully prying off the dust cap and cleaning them up with some emery. Diagnosis involves a lot of patience while waiting for the symptoms to develop as you probe each relay input and output with a voltmeter.
The relays themselves can also be replaced, but it requires some de-soldering skill, and matching these little weird relays up in a catalog can be daunting.
I'm sorry to say that I don't have the test bench I would need in order to diagnose or repair your box without your burner unit as well. I was forced to learn about these units by troubleshooting my own, which of course was attached to my boiler at the time and is a bear to access. I'm sorry that I did not have the presence of mind, in the heat of battle, to take photos of the process, which would have helped several folks here. My unit is also 24v, so I could not, for example, swap your box into my setup for testing even if it were easy to do so.
There are a handful of folks in the business of refurbishing these boxes -- it sounds like that's where you acquired your replacement. You might check with some of them to see what they charge to diagnose and repair one, or else they might simply give you a credit for your box as a "core" towards a refurbished one, if you are looking for a spare.
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com (http://ourodyssey.blogspot.com)
Quote from: opus on March 27, 2012, 06:51:02 AM
Good to know. I will take it apart this week if it dries off some. I have heard plenty about the control boxes. If need be I would take it apart and repair it, with the help of a local guy. You think someone would have come up with a workaround for the expensive control box.
So, Opus, you make any headway on repairing your control module? Sean politely bowed out so the only guy I know that will rebuild them is the guy on eBay that wants $420 with a $100 core deposit.
--Geoff
Webasto doesnt think its the box. They are thinking it is the green/green overheat thingy. He thinks when the engine is hot, and I turn it on, it is bouncing close to overheat. I dont because the engine never gets over 180. Unless of course, it is defective. We're on the road this weekend, I will try it and see what happens.