All -
My wife has posted a 3 part story of our crossing from Illinois to Seattle during a winter storm. It was quite an adventure. I won't tell you if we lived or died, but you an probably guess before you get too far into the story. :)
Anyway, this is a sister article to the one she wrote for RV magazine in this issue.
If you've got a few minutes, check it out. Again, it's a 3 part story. Here is the link to all 3.
http://www.countingfireflies.com/home/tabid/41/Page/3/Default.aspx (http://www.countingfireflies.com/home/tabid/41/Page/3/Default.aspx)
http://www.countingfireflies.com/home/tabid/41/Page/3/Default.aspx (http://www.countingfireflies.com/home/tabid/41/Page/3/Default.aspx)
Best to all from a sunny BLM plot outside Yuma.
Chris.
Chris,
That is great. Here is the link to part four. http://www.countingfireflies.com/home/tabid/41/Article/180/travel-tales-great-plains-part-4.aspx (http://www.countingfireflies.com/home/tabid/41/Article/180/travel-tales-great-plains-part-4.aspx)
Seriously, I loved the story. We have been in similar situations, but not caught in the cold like that (been places way colder, but we were prepared....some of you guys in Canada, brrrr -30 and wind). I know where the spot is, that you stopped. Too bad we weren't out there, because I would have helped get you going.
Travelling that route can be tough, if you don't know what it can have to offer. That and I-80, I always plan on snow. We have driven more miles with chains on along there, then anywhere else in the country.
Did you ever figure out what happened with the generator?
For everybody else, that might learn from reading this. A couple thoughts. If it is going to be cold, and you genset is your only source of heat, start it and DO NOT shut it down. Don't worry about saving fuel. Just DO NOT shut it down.
Have extra sources of heat. Meaning, make sure you don't just rely on the genset.
Make sure the windshield defrost works.
And most of all, maintenance! Make sure you coach is maintained! It doesn't always protect from breakdowns, but it often does. The air dryer is the most critical part of your air system. Keep that thing maintained.
Glad you all made it through okay. At least you will be wiser for next time ;D
John
Amazing story. I hope that you didn't have any lasting problems due to the plumbing system freezing. My old bones have begun to tell me that 34 degrees is getting to be too chilly; I'll listen to my bones in the future.
Amazing story, and one your not likely to forget. There is a beauty to winter, even severe winter, you just have to be smart about it.
My Parents made a winter trip back to San Francisco from MPLS in 1949, and Mom suggested they take US 40 west out through Denver. They talked about that trip most of my life. Hairpin turns, tire chains, cars and trucks smashed to bits at the bottom of deep cliffs, no guard rails, snow more than 20 feet in places, a real white knuckle ride. IIRC it wasnt until they were west of Truckee that they dropped out of the cold and snow. Someday I would like to travel that route, but probably not in winter eh?
Hmmm..it's having the opposite effect on me. I want to winter in our coach now...I live for this stuff! and for those of you who think i'm crazy, remember, some people go rock climbing...others skydiving, still others race cars...I love storms...I love winter weather and surviving it. That being said, sorry you guys had to go through all of that involuntarily. What a trip!
Quote from: Scott Bennett on March 01, 2012, 01:51:43 PM
Hmmm..it's having the opposite effect on me. I want to winter in our coach now...I live for this stuff! and for those of you who think i'm crazy, remember, some people go rock climbing...others skydiving, still others race cars...I love storms...I love winter weather and surviving it. That being said, sorry you guys had to go through all of that involuntarily. What a trip!
Scott, funny that you mention it. I am much the same way. I really enjoy winter weather, preparing, the storm, etc. The only thing is, I enjoy it so much more, when it doesn't put my family in danger. That is where I stop enjoying it as much.
Chris, the more I think about it, the more amazed I am that you all were okay. First off, a coach coming from Florida, to that extreme....Then things catching up with you, like the air dryer (I don't remember reading how you ever did get that fixed permanently). Also, the heat not working.....what a time.
The coldest our bus has been is -30. So far, we have had no problems. However, we plan for it. We built our bus, for cold. All of our pipes, in the bay, are wrapped with electric heat tape. Our tanks are sitting on electric heat mats. We have a safe extra space heater, available too, that we can run down there. Upstairs we have dash heat, for down the road. Also a hydronic (like an Aquahot) heating system that will preheat the engine, heat the cabin with engine heat, or diesel (if the engine isn't warm). That is independent of the electrical system, except for the fans to push the air. We have large batteries, so even if our genset didn't work, we could make it to a campground. We also carry four sets of chains and tensioners. In addition, there is always plenty of food and water, so we could boondock for several days.
I think you bring up a very good point. Few busnuts travel in winter storms, but some of us do. If you are one, think ahead, be prepared, and be safe. Your family is at stake here.
FWIW
John
Ditto John...not sure when we'll experience our first winter in our coach, but we're not yet ready for it. We have really really good insulation. Once again, we're running in 90 degree weather with one roof a/c (13,500 btu) and have been keeping the coach at 69 or 70 even with the sun streaming through the windshield as it sets. On 29 degree nights we've used only a single 1500 watt space heater to keep things toasty. But we want to be ready for the negatives or at least single digits. That will involve of course heating the plumbing bays and buying a heated water hose as well as a better interior heat system than just a space heater. Someday...
Great story and pics! Glad you all are safe. Something you and your kids will remember for the rest of your life. My wife and I on our first run in our bus went through extreme heat broke down half way. Waited 4 months to have the bus fixed. Then drove through WY. when it was very cold with no heater or defrost, but nothing like what you had to go through. From S.C. to Boise ID. Even if we never get to go that far again it was worth all the money in the world. We had a great time and can't Waite to get in the bus and go.
Once again thanks for telling your story. I can't get enough of this stuff. Guess that's way we bought a bus
Kevin
Most of your problems I have also had. Just not on a trip or at one time.LOL You did well.
I am a little confused by the comment that you couldn't idle the engine for more that 2 hours without serious damage. I wasn't aware of that fact.
Regards
Fred Mc.
Having grown up in Duluth MN I always envied warmer places. Coming down to the Twin Cities at Easter and often times seeing green grass, trees in bloom, lakes free of ice, then driving back into the frozen north, it was like being teased. I wondered why we had to live at the North Pole?
So I know how to survive the cold, I grew up in it. I played outside with friends at -30 and colder. Frost bit my hands a feet a few times. But then I realized I dont have to.
74°F today. Trees are flowering. Grass is high enough to mow. I will try to live out the second half of my life in a gentler climate. My buddy up in the Cities had to shovel 8 inches this morning. He can have it.
Yes, a well written set of articles, and thanks for sharing!
Unfortunately, for the reader seeking thrills, there is no adventure in being prepared.
Being prepared is quite boring.
And that's just the way we've got the world to spin.
The real cold is no entertainment.
Kids lose fingers and toes to frostbite when adults get it wrong.
Or worse.
At those temps, in a coach that hasn't been sorted out yet, whether a generator was running or not, the coach would be on high idle all night, whichever combination of defroster or coach blowers or auxiliary heat via the generator as works for the interior temp.
Where did this "idling causes damage" get started? Idling is a waste of fuel, (and makes pollution) but if it is cold out, the fuel consumption is a small cost versus a no-start or freezing to death.
And any busnut in the US or Canada: Where in either country does it not freeze on a busnut and the coach sometime?
If you have an air drier, you need to upgrade to a purge valve with a heating element, check that there is power to the element when the engine is running, and that the desiccant has been serviced sometime this side of biblical times.
An improperly maintained air drier will be your first point of failure, with others to follow, in the cold. Guaranteed.
happy coaching!
buswarrior
I do not know how urgent the trip was, but "I" (what I would do) is not start such a trip in a bus that obviously was not even close to ready and then keep going when the thing is falling apart.... with small kids also. I do not know if you realized already how close have you been of becoming featured in the news for the wrong reasons. Hope you learned something and make more sensible decisions in the future.
Countingfireflies,
your story was well written and entertaining, great read.
I hope you don't mind the constructive criticism you have opened yourselves to in the responses. Take that adventure as a memorable learning experience.
When I used to drive bus in the '70s, we would leave our buses idling in the back of hotel parking lots at -20 or -30C all night, to make sure we could run the next day.
This is before the days of Webastos and air dryers.
There was alcohol in the air system so it wouldn't freeze.
Buses run all winter routinely up here without problems.
Make sure you are prepared the next time across the frozen continent.
JC
This is exactly why, when I was driving cross country truck, I only worked from April 15 to Dec 15, taking the 3 winter months off. I picked up a load in up state New York, saw that a winter storm was crossing the states, and dropped down to interstate 40 and then drove back up to my destination of Salt Lake City-an extra 1,100 miles! But-no winter storm, no ice, no problems.
Personally-I would have stayed on interstate 80 to 84 to Portland, Or then up to Seattle-but at least you got there in one piece! Good Luck, TomC
Awesome story - thank you for sharing
I also had a question about the 2 hour idle. My question has always been (and yet unanswered), do I let it idle on high or low? But, back when I drove tour coach, if it was cold, we never shut down. Sometimes for weeks at a time. We couldn't risk not starting in the morning for our groups. It seemed to keep the coach much happier. But, I don't remember today if it was left on high or low... I think low.
Any experts want to chime in and give use some guidance?
Doesn't it have to do with oil pressure being super low during normal idle? In any case, I often see coaches in the winter idled for hours. I've done it too. Just have a good CO sensor in the bedroom...make that two of them. We don't want to sleep forever...going to sleep with the coach idling away is very peaceful actually. Oh, and for the record, we have two sheets of 90 minute FIREROCK fire resistant sheetrock under the bed and behind it. Gives us some time to get out if there's an engine fire.
An engine is an engine, basically. Certain engines have peculiar idiosyncrasies that often need work arounds, but most are manageable. In boats they dont want anything to reach tempertures above the flash point of gasoline, so they would run 140° T stats. Not sure about diesels in boats, but I believe they run the same temps. Not because of the flash point of diesel, but the various oils and fumes that may exist in proximity to the engine which could have flash points above 140°. In any case 140° is about the minimum temperature you want to run any engine at.
Another issue is piston to bore clearance. Pistons are made to work at full operating temperature. Because the Crown of the piston operates much hotter than the skirt, the piston is made much smaller at the top, to account for expansion at operating temperature. Running an engine cold for long periods can lead to greatly accelerated piston/cylinder wear because the top of the piston is contracted and it wobbles and flops around going up and down, called piston slap. All you need to do to correct it is get the temps up to 140°. You see big rigs closing off the radiators in cold weather, you need to do the same for the bus, but you also need to monitor engine temps in case outside temps rise or you could overheat.
Idle oil pressure could be too low, or not, all you need do is check it against specs. Most give full oil pressure at peak RPM not at idle. Likely anything over 5 psi at idle is sort of okay, but I would like to see at least 10 psi, and more wont hurt. Heavier oil, fresh oil, a good oil pump, pressure relief valve adjustment, tighter engine bearings, or speeding up the engine a bit can, or could solve that issue.
Another issue we've read about is 2 stroke Detroits wetting the exhaust with unburned fuel. Again, some of that is due to cold running engines, engines out of tune, and engines running to slow. And some of it may just be the beasts nature and we may have to live with killing some skeeters and driving Prius drivers insane for a few miles down the road next morning after a nights idling run.
I also think we should resist pointing fingers. Everyone makes errors in judgment, and only through looking back can we often see them. I've been reading Flying magazines all my life, and for various reasons have always been drawn to aviation accidents and the scarey stories with better outcomes, the "I learned about Flying from that" sort of stuff. They don't post them to point fingers, but to teach us. You can only learn so much reading books and listening to others, you have to go out and live it to really learn and make mistakes. And yes, once in a while some of us make very grave mistakes.
Its so easy to say you would have done this different, or that different, but maybe you have more experience, or your thought processes work differently than mine, on that day at that time. Maybe a while from now down the road you'll screw up and someone else can say well, I would have done that different. The old 20/20 hindsight thing is really a bugger. I bet if the Donners had known they were only a short way from the summit they would have pushed on and we would never have known of them.
And then there is truly knowing how dangerous cold can really be. Not only do many people who didnt grow up in cold climates underestimate the dangers, people who have lived in that climate all their life often do as well, or are often even more complacent to it than noobs. Having lived in Minnesota most of my life, 51 years to be exact, 10 years of it in Duluth and never missing a winter, I learned a lot, and saw a lot. Ive seen the thermometer down near -50° once or twice, colder than -40° more than I can count, and probably a combined total of nights below -30° that would reach several months. Ive frost bit my hands and feet, once so bad it hurt for years. I knew a guy who froze to death when his car quit a mile from a Bar he'd left, found less than 100 feet from his car. My dad worked with a guy at Duluth AFB who froze to death less than 2 miles from work after his car quit, also found close to his car. An elederly couple were found frozen embracing each other in a huddle behind a wind break, less than 100 yards from the front door of their house, less than 100 feet from their car, when their car got stuck in the driveway and they set out on foot in a white out snowstorm. We knew a young girl who had both her feet amputated after missing the school Bus and walking home in her tennis shoes. In every case, those people simply werent dressed to be out in that kind of weather, and/or made a bad decision. My flight instructor told me always to dress like I might have to walk 10 miles through the woods. At night. Probably the best advice anyone could ever use.
But like I said, we often have to put ourselves in a scary position before we see the real danger, and thankfully I learned that quite young. When I was 17 I got my car stuck on a back country rural road, with the nearest house over a mile away. Had I not known better I might have tried walking, but it was more than -10 and breezy and I did know better. I huddled up in blankets and clothes in the backseat, and ran the engine just enough to stay warm. I was awakened at the crack of dawn by an old Farmer tapping on my window. Ya want to get out? He yanked me out with his tractor and I was on my way. Warm. Fully rested from a full nights sleep, and more importantly, alive. Alive means were able to relate our stupid mistakes and goofs to someone wise enough to listen and learn. Dead is just dead and no one ever learns much from it.
On engine idling:
If the engine will be able to maintain something close to operating temp, low idle is fine.
Running any heating, either the coach or the defroster, will pull the engine temp well below operating temps, so run high idle.
Shutters and fan dampers inoperative? Not good, consider covering the rads or slipping the fan belt off while parked. Slipping the belt off, in conjunction with arctic temps and the heaters working will take care of cooling the engine. This requires some knowledge and some monitoring or what you are doing.
If there will be any appreciable electrical loads on the charging system, run high idle.
MCI owners beware: How is your air drier heating element powered? Many models, the stock wiring was to the coach HVAC switch, so leaving the coach heat turned off will freeze the purge valve. Also, this circuit is often overlooked when the HVAC system is torn out during the conversion process.
For the busnut, a good strategy might be to find the wire in the driver's outside electric compartment and choose a different method of powering the circuit. Often a small 3 amp inline fuse holder in the wire will let you find it, instead of tracing it up from underneath.
happy coaching!
buswarrior