It runs and drives!! Here's a link to a YouTube video. I attached a couple of pictures that show my favorite thing, boost at idle, no turbo lag between shifts. I still have few wires and hoses to tidy up.
Ken
1988 Prevost Engine Swap Running (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dui6390drhY#)
here's the link to first half of the slide show, I'll put up a link to the final slide show as soon as I have it ready. Then I hope to get a video of the official launch ready soon.
14L Series 60 in 1988 Prevost 2nd ED.wmv (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fybDVp_s59M#)
Ken, it has been great to follow your project, both on the boards, via email, and via phone.
There is no way that folks can understand how much you have researched the electronics of the engine.
I am so tickled that your first drive went so well.
CONGRATULATIONS!!!!
Jim
Wow! What an amazing project. Thanks for sharing.
DKO
Ken: What an amazing job you have done. But where is the oil leaking on the floor?
Chuckd
Stillwater Mn
Well done Ken. All your hard work has paid off. I will be watching to see how you like the ultrashift.
Good job
Wayne
Looks great Ken!!! From the look you will be ready to join us at the eagle rally in Nasheville in May!!
Hey Ken,
Looks great! I was in Murfreesboro this past weekend with FIU's track team. They kept me hoping the whole weekend except when the coach adjusted the schedule for me so I could watch/record the Daytona 500. (but since it rained out that didn't happen either!)
I thought about calling you Sunday as that was the only free time I had, but figured you had better things to do on a Sunday than fool with someone else's bus!
;D BK ;D
Looks great Ken
ned sanders
;D next: Bob
Thats a good job
Thanks for all of the complements. I'm working on some cardboard Eagle emblems to hide my Prevost emblems, if I can get them painted silver by May I hope to see some of you at the Eagles Rally on Saturday. That is if Eric will let me in.
Ken
Ken You and your Prevo do not have to worry. They let Huggy in at the last rally.
Had a great time. fine bunch of folks.
Might make you park off to the side but since it is a prevo maybe not in the same class as a old gm.
LOL LOL
watch out for ed breemer he is trouble. harley rider
uncle ned
What is this engine set at? 500hp?
Hey Ken how long did it take you to make all of those changes? I enjoy work like this, you can tell how much thought you put into everything.....excellant work!!!!
Really nice work, Ken. I'm staring right down both barrels of having to install an engine in a bus not designed for it, so I'm *very* interested in the issues you had to deal with and how you overcame any problems.
Quote from: morefire on March 01, 2012, 06:46:38 AM
What is this engine set at? 500hp?
The HP setting shows 490, but my ECM software has been modified and it should be producing more HP. When I'm finished tuning it I'll get it dynoed for an accurate HP / Torque number. Here is a link to what I shooting for.
SIZE MATTERS - Semi Truck Drift Gymkhana Feature (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PDGfzYiDEpI#ws)
Quote from: muddog16 on March 01, 2012, 06:49:20 AM
Hey Ken how long did it take you to make all of those changes? I enjoy work like this, you can tell how much thought you put into everything.....excellant work!!!!
How long did it take?? Way too long. About 10 months at maybe 30 to 40 hours a week.
Quote from: Oonrahnjay on March 01, 2012, 06:54:13 AM
Really nice work, Ken. I'm staring right down both barrels of having to install an engine in a bus not designed for it, so I'm *very* interested in the issues you had to deal with and how you overcame any problems.
Your are in for many hours of work. Have you considered transplanting the complete drive train from a transit bus with a "V" drive? You have a lot of work ahead of you anyway, with a transit bus drive train parts might be easier to find.
Ken I may not be able to drift and spin the tires with him but a can put out black smoke with the best of them.
uncle ned
have a good day. headed down to the sandlaper this weekend. come on down.
Quote from: uncle ned on March 01, 2012, 08:48:44 AM
Ken I may not be able to drift and spin the tires with him but a can put out black smoke with the best of them.
uncle ned
have a good day. headed down to the sandlaper this weekend. come on down.
I think a he's a black smoke amateur. You and Huggy could be 12 time world champions at making black smoke. I think my 04 would always be 2nd to yours.
The Sandlapper sounds like fun but I still have work to do.
Quote from: Hard Headed Ken on March 01, 2012, 08:19:49 AM(snip) Have you considered transplanting the complete drive train from a transit bus with a "V" drive? You have a lot of work ahead of you anyway, with a transit bus drive train parts might be easier to find.
yes, I have thought about this and it would offer many advantages (probably better gearing, better choices of rear axle, etc.). I haven't rejected it and in fact, it's high on my list of possible ways to go (although a NA-type V-drive would mean MAJOR mods to my rear chassis). But yes, I agree, it would offer lots of advantages.
Quote from: Hard Headed Ken on March 01, 2012, 08:19:49 AM
Quote from: morefire on March 01, 2012, 06:46:38 AM
What is this engine set at? 500hp?
The HP setting shows 490, but my ECM software has been modified and it should be producing more HP. When I'm finished tuning it I'll get it dynoed for an accurate HP / Torque number. Here is a link to what I shooting for.
SIZE MATTERS - Semi Truck Drift Gymkhana Feature (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PDGfzYiDEpI#ws)
Quote from: muddog16 on March 01, 2012, 06:49:20 AM
Hey Ken how long did it take you to make all of those changes? I enjoy work like this, you can tell how much thought you put into everything.....excellant work!!!!
How long did it take?? Way too long. About 10 months at maybe 30 to 40 hours a week.
Quote from: Oonrahnjay on March 01, 2012, 06:54:13 AM
Really nice work, Ken. I'm staring right down both barrels of having to install an engine in a bus not designed for it, so I'm *very* interested in the issues you had to deal with and how you overcame any problems.
Your are in for many hours of work. Have you considered transplanting the complete drive train from a transit bus with a "V" drive? You have a lot of work ahead of you anyway, with a transit bus drive train parts might be easier to find.
Thats actually a cool video! Gotta LOVE HP!!! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Cole runs his 14L series 60 in his Eagle at 650 hp and can change the HP on the go from the drivers seat his economy mode is 550 hp
good luck
Quote from: luvrbus on March 01, 2012, 05:08:25 PM
Cole runs his 14L series 60 in his Eagle at 650 hp and can change the HP on the go from the drivers seat his economy mode is 550 hp
good luck
Did he upgrade the pistons and use a bigger turbo, or just turned up the computer?
Did he upgrade the pistons and use a bigger turbo, or just turned up the computer?
[/quote]
You have do all that plus some. For example I have 630 HP 1800 ft lb torque program from a 14 liter off road engine. I can program my ECM with this program. Then you can use DDL or discrete inputs (a switch on the dash) to select the 630 HP rating, that doesn't mean it actually has 630 HP, it just says 630. Why you say. When I compare the related parts in my serial number to the off road serial number the off road engine has injectors with more flow. When I compare the pulse width tables in the two programs the off road engine has a slightly longer pulse width than my engine. My engine would have more HP with this off road program but not 630 HP unless I change all related parts in my engine to ones used in the off road engine.
Ken
Cole runs marine pistons in his 14L,different turbo, different cams, different rods, a lot of different things he uses a marine ECM programmed with Jakes and cruise he knows how to get it done he was VP of Stewart and Stevenson
Quote from: luvrbus on March 01, 2012, 07:46:13 PM
Cole runs marine pistons in his 14L,different turbo, different cams, different rods, a lot of different things he uses a marine ECM programmed with Jakes and cruise he knows how to get it done he was VP of Stewart and Stevenson
Cole has done it correctly. I just wanted everyone who is interested in this subject to know that you can't always get an extra 100 or 200 HP increase with just a program change.
Ken
Quote from: Hard Headed Ken on March 01, 2012, 07:59:07 PM
Quote from: luvrbus on March 01, 2012, 07:46:13 PM
Cole runs marine pistons in his 14L,different turbo, different cams, different rods, a lot of different things he uses a marine ECM programmed with Jakes and cruise he knows how to get it done he was VP of Stewart and Stevenson
Cole has done it correctly. I just wanted everyone who is interested in this subject to know that you can't always get an extra 100 or 200 HP increase with just a program change.
Ken
Thats why I asked ;) HP isn't cheap :-\
Quote from: Hard Headed Ken on March 01, 2012, 08:19:49 AM
The HP setting shows 490, but my ECM software has been modified and it should be producing more HP. When I'm finished tuning it I'll get it dynoed for an accurate HP / Torque number. Here is a link to what I shooting for.
Who modified your ECM for you? Detroit dealers will only go strictly by the program intended for the engine serial number.
Who modified your ECM for you? Detroit dealers will only go strictly by the program intended for the engine serial number.
[/quote]
The programming changes were not done by a Detroit Dealer. The software the dealers use and most programmers use outside of the dealerships is called DRS or DDRS (Detroit Reprogramming System). DRS is limited to factory settings that's why I made my earlier post. With DRS you can install a high horse power program in a lower horse power engine but it may not produce the stated HP because it doesn't have the correct factory parts designed for the higher HP engine program or it may have the correct parts, you have to compare all the related parts between the two engine serial numbers. My initial program modifications were done by a friend and I'll be making changes as I determine the best settings for fuel economy and power. Because of an agreement with my friend I can't reveal at lot of information about the software. The software he is using very complex, it's more like what the chip tuners use in high performance automobiles. With this software you can actually increase the HP and torque at least 100 HP or more without changing cams, turbos, injectors, and pistons. Don't forget big horsepower from stock components has a cost besides fuel, that why it's better to use all the right stuff like Cole did. The truck in video that has 1900 HP was tuned with this type of software and with an experienced tuner or it could have been done by a tuner that works for Detroit since he seems to have some factory support. If anyone needs a special tune I want to clear with my friend before I give out his contact information.
Ken
Here's my last set of pictures from the engine swap. These pictures don't cover every step but you can get a rough ideal of the things I made, rebuilt or modified when you watch both slide shows.
Ken
2nd half pictures 14 Liter in 1988 Prevost (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mM2RUwzBkcc#)
What some don't realize is there are different grades of 60 series the off road ECM and software for the DDEC will let you get outside the box on those engines.
The dealers use the EPA setting the risk of going beyond that is something they won't do checking a new engine some versions won't let you do any changes till the warranty is released from DD on ECM
Quote from: luvrbus on March 02, 2012, 07:12:33 AM
What some don't realize is there are different grades of 60 series the off road ECM and software for the DDEC will let you get outside the box on those engines.
The dealers use the EPA setting the risk of going beyond that is something they won't do checking a new engine some versions won't let you do any changes till the warranty is released from DD on ECM
I agree, the dealers are bound by EPA regulations (they actually apply to everyone) and cannot take a chance on violating EPA rules. As you know there several design levels even for on road 12.7's, BK, GK, PK etc. You might get away with 550 / 600 HP on a BK or PK but probably not on a GK.
Ken
Hi Ken,
That's a big change from when I last saw that engine! Great work!
you also have to know the serial number for the Jake brakes, they have to be matched to the camshaft. There are four diffrent Jake set ups for the 60 series engines and if you put the wrong one on it you wont like the results.
Don
Don I remember the first time I met Ken at Jarra Smiths. He said that is one smart kid.
That was about 15 years ago.
From the looks of his work I believe he was right. If I could put you two together what a pair we would have. Then through in Clifford.
uncle ned
Ned,
If you put me with Don it could possible make him dumber. Clifford has forgoten more than I know and I don't think he has forgotten very much.
15 years? Maybe closer to 20.
Ken
I don't know Ned, from what I see i would have to step up my game about 6 or 8 notches. I'm not even in the same ball park as Ken.
Don
P.S. I just put a couple try tips on the BBQ how long would it take you to get here. LOL
Looking forward to Bk's this year.
Ken you have done a great job.
It looks like you spent the time mounting a automatic tensioner to your gearbox to fan sepentine and got rid of the Prevost air bags.. Are you running the Prevost fan clutch or modded truck clutch?
Quote from: Zeroclearance on March 03, 2012, 03:45:36 PM
Ken you have done a great job.
It looks like you spent the time mounting a automatic tensioner to your gearbox to fan sepentine and got rid of the Prevost air bags.. Are you running the Prevost fan clutch or modded truck clutch?
Thanks for the complement. You are correct. I used the Horton fan clutch from the truck and added what Horton calls a "Two Speed Option". When the air is off the clutch is locked. With Horton's 2 speed, when air is applied the fan is driven by magnets and runs about half speed, there is no off. I didn't really like Prevost's airbag setup and with the truck fan I couldn't use it because the clutch is locked when no air is in the system. With the airbags, no air in the system means no tension on the belts, they would slip or be thrown off. I built a mount, welded it to the fan mount and used a spring tensioner from a another Detroit engine for the serpentine belt and I used the original air cylinder tensioner from the 8V92 for the V belts. It has a spring inside that provides some tension until air pressure comes up.
Ken
How is the ECU activating the 2 speed control? Instead of electric coils you have a air supply with solinoid? The Prevost drive system is a mess. I liked everything that you did. I had my system all apart this past summer. The front drive mount off my engine was cracked. I have blown out the rear bag twice already in three years.. Prevost has a upgrade with larger bags and larger fan clutch at $4K.. I have seen the damage on failed clutches with the blades spun right into your radiator.
The ECU activates the solenoid just as it did originally, the differences is that the fan never completely stops with the two speed unit. My thinking is that the charge air cooler always needs air flow across it(unless your idling), the engine room can be very hot and always needs air flow, plus with a side mount radiator the fan cycles on and off very frequently because there is no flow across the charge air cooler and radiator like a front mounted system. When the fan clutch locks up there is a lot of shock to the system. With the fan already running at half speed it greatly reduces the shock to the fan drive system and reduces wear to the fan clutch.
Ken
Instead of starting a new thread I'm just adding to my original. Several people asked about fuel mileage, this is what I have so far. This picture is from my Prodriver. This is after a drive up Mt. Eagle and back on I 24. 160 miles with the cruise set at 70 MPH when possible. There is quite a bit of stop and go driving in this trip. I'm hoping for over 9 on a longer trip. The engine ECM computes this estimated mileage based on distance traveled which comes from tire size and gear ratios. The other part of the calculation is from a pre-programmed injector size and the ECM knowing how long the injectors were open "pulse width". My computer MPH is correct according to my GPS and the other parameters haven't been altered so the ECM MPG should be close. All that being said I wouldn't bet a lot of money that the estimated MPG is correct, it should be close. It will be later this summer before I can confirm the real MPG. Whatever it is, it looks like an improvement over 5.5 with the 8V92.
Was the 8v92 a DDEC intercooled Ken also, most 8v92 DDEC's air to air get about the same mileage as you posted,now the MUI 8v92 it takes a little work lol to get there but 7 mpg is fairly easy to get on a MUI 8v92.
I can get the same torque as a 60 series with 8v92 at the same rpm I just can't seem to get the long flat torque curve the 14L series 60 have that part is hard to duplicate but I am working on it and I don't hide the fact I have blew a couple of 8v92 trying to get there lol
good luck
Ken, I expect to see you in Nasheville!!! We have several S.O.B.'s (Some Other Brand) coming also. You and I need to discuss the triple turbo option!!!LOL
Quote from: Hard Headed Ken on April 10, 2012, 07:21:35 AMInstead of starting a new thread I'm just adding to my original. Several people asked about fuel mileage, this is what I have so far. This picture is from my Prodriver. (snip)
Ken, I think you're on good ground to be confident in the "computed fuel used" for your Prodriver. I have a "ScanGauge" on my VW TDI, it's right to within .1 or .2 per gallon per fillup (of course, we're talking about a 16 gallon fillup instead of 125!). It will be interesting to see your calculated final MPG but it would surprise me if it were a big difference from the "digital-calculated".
Ken, as you know, I use SilverLeaf VMSpc and that reads the same data. With the VMSpc, I set up 4 odometers. One of them is my fuel gauge. I reset it at each fill up.
With the first Series 60, I would be almost dead on when I filled the bus (pump gallons vs gallons used as shown on the VMSpc). Obviously there was some variation with each fill due to frothing etc., but they were all very close and balanced out almost exactly over many fills.
With the second engine, the fuel used seems to be between 5-10% more than the VMSpc shows. I have not taken the time to look at the accumulated numbers, but the gut feeling is that is off by some amount. With VMSpc, I can input an offset to correct the fuel used data.
Like you, my MPH is almost dead on with the GPS.
It will be interesting to see how you fuel used compares to your ProDriver.
BTW, my generator and AquaHot come off a different tank, so the fuel used in the main tank is engine only.
As I recall, my overall mileage (per SilverLeaf) for 60K miles is about 7.6. Part of the difference is that I have a long hard pull up to our 7500 ft altitude and I usually pull a heavy toad.
Jim
Clifford my 8V was 475 HP DDECII and after cooled. I guessed there were several things I could have done to help the fuel mileage. I owned buses for several years with two strokes. A 4104 with a 671 then I installed a 6v92 in that and my Prevost with the 8V92. I don't why, but I just never loved them, even though that 671 was about bullet proof. The 8V in my Prevost had plenty of power and I'm reasonably sure it would out run any 4 stroke bus I've been in at least in drag race. I would not have changed it except it started leaking coolant around a liner o-ring. If I had known how many hours it was going to take to do the swap, I don't know, I'm just out of the delivery room and the birth pains are fading but I still remember the pain clearly. I say today "I'm never having sex with another bus". Check with me in a few weeks, maybe I could be persuaded.
As for the fuel mileage it will take a few fill ups and at $4 a gallon those fill ups are just about out of reach right now. I'm going to see where I am on MPG then I have one more thing to try, advancing the cam about 4 degrees. I have a friend claiming at last extra mile per gallon with that modification on trucks pulling 80,000 lbs. I'm always skeptical, but I have some experience degreeing cams and I know the general effect it's going to have and since I'm turning 1400 RPM at 70 MHPH I think it could work.
Ken
Ken, one of the things you will find is that the timing retard is in the camshaft profile and not the gear timing. We experimented with a couple of offset TRS sensors to try and find a better way of advancing the timing, we did make the engine run a lot better and use less fuel and also lowered the emissions but could not keep the sensor from leaking oil once we modified it. If you have a buddy that can modify the ecm you will be better off than trying to advance the camshaft. Maybe Clifford can help you a little. He does know the guru on the ecm's.
Good luck
Don
Ken,
I have zero experience with buses or rebuilding engines. Seeing all the work you put into this is absolutely amazing. What an incredible experience and payoff. Almost too much to process.
-Sean
Don,
I understand what you are saying because the cam provides the injection pressure and the ECM controls the exact injection timing. Inside the ECM program that is called the BOI table "Beginning of Injection". I can change that table, Im trying to find at what point in the stroke of the injector is there enough pressure for a correct spray pattern. Advance the timing too much and there may not be enough pressure. The injectors in this 14 liter are different from the 12.7, there is no injector height to set. Rotate the engine until the injector is at full stroke, bottom it out with the adjuster, back off ¾ of a turn and tighten the lock nut.
Sean,
Thanks for you complements. It was a challenge and I had enough experience to know better but I did it anyway. Payoff?? Maybe, hopefully I'll be able to get some use out of this in the future. One thing I just recently noticed about myself, "I can do anything but I don't know nothing". I know there is a conflict in that statement but I think it fits me.
Ken