Hi all,
Just had my bus into WW Williams for some work including fluid changes in the transmission, rear diff., and fan gearbox. I had them go with synthetic in all. They recommended the following;
Rockwell Diff. 3.58 ratio - Delvac Syn Trans Fluid 50w (mbl 98h193)
Allison HT-755CR - Trans syn Fluid (27101-ctcs)
Fan Gearbox - Delvac Syn GR 75w-90 (mbl 98h98)
Are these the best to use.
Thanks for your input.
John
Tough to beat that combination,your wallet is a little lighter huh
good luck
I have been wanting to do the same in my rear axle with dropbox. Should I be looking at 50w also? I was thinking 80/90w? Thanks Tom
My wallet definitely is lighter. Had a hard time prying the dollars out of it but figure it is a long term investment.
I was surprised they recommended the 50w for the rear axle, and nervous.
Also had them do a radiator flush and thermostat change with new coolant. Hoping it runs a little cooler.
John
Don't be nervous Eaton extends their warranty to 750,000 miles when using Trans 50 about all the off road heavy equipment use it now good stuff
good luck
Thanks luvrbus,
That makes me feel better.
Should I think about synthetic for the steer and tag axle oil. If so, what?
Thanks,
John
I ran the Trans 50 in my steers and boogies
good luck
The downside of synthetics in older machines include finding leaks you didn't know you had.>>>Dan
When I did the RTO-910, I had it changed from RT-910 to the RTO-910, new bearings and seals, used only the Synthetic 50, never any issues .
Here's the link to the recommended lubricants from Eaton -
http://www.eaton.com/ecm/groups/public/@pub/@eaton/@roadranger/documents/content/ct_070589.pdf (http://www.eaton.com/ecm/groups/public/@pub/@eaton/@roadranger/documents/content/ct_070589.pdf)
They recommend Delvac Synthetic Gear Oil 75W-90 for the rear end.
I have 50w in my rockwell rear and rto-910 trans.
Never heard of 50w in diffs, lots of truck and bus transmissions though.
I have to see something credible and written on this before I put 50W in any diff.
That Eaton link doesn't recommend it anywhere!
Transmission oil is not hypoid gear oil, it does not have the extreme pressure modifiers that allow the sliding action of the gear faces to survive in a hypoid gear differential. So if your differential is the standard bus type with hypoid gears, you either got sold the wrong oil, or it's a differential oil, not a transmission oil, or you got the name wrong. 50W is far too light for a differential - but transmission oil is rated on the same SAE scale as engine oil - not the different scale for differential oil modified with extreme pressure additives for differentials.
I would find out the answer to the question, and if they did put 50W transmission oil in I'd get it out before I drove the bus. You can kill a differential very quickly indeed with the wrong oil.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gear_oil (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gear_oil)
Brian
Good grief guys the Mobil 50 covers GL-1 to GL-4, and Gus dig a little deeper Eaton does warranty their transmission 750,000 miles using Delvac 50 with 500,000 mile oil changes and in case don't know what GL means that stands for gear lube the Delvac 50 is shipped in Mack and Volvo
Fwiw Cat uses 30w on the gear train of their equipment you think your bus is under a load lol try hauling 37 yards of dirt
good luck
Clifford, I have no idea why you are talking about Mobil 50 GL, but 98HL93 Delvac ain't a gear lube as far as I can tell. It's a transmission oil. If you want to put in in differentials, fine by me. I wouldn't. I would put gear oil in a differential. Like maybe 98HK85 or some other gear lube.
Brian
All gear lube has the GL rating for years we used GL-5 or GL-6 in drop boxes and the rear gear the 6 has been gone the GL-5 is going.
That Mobil 50 is the same oil as the 75-90 the last 2 numbers tell the weight guess what the H stands for are you trying to say a Eaton Roadranger doesn't have gears ?
the oil that he said was put in the differential is transmission oil, not gear oil. That's all I am saying. I like the Delvac 50 weight transmission fluid, I am actually running it in my transmission right now. An Eaton Roadranger is a transmission, it isn't a differential. Do you really put 50 weight transmission oil in your differentials? I put gear oil in differentials, personally...
From the original post: Rockwell Diff. 3.58 ratio - Delvac Syn Trans Fluid 50w (mbl 98h193)
That is the wrong fluid for that application, as far as I am concerned.
Brian
OK, I'm ready to be educated - exactly what does each digit in (mbl 98h193) stand for?? Those numbers look metric to me because they are odd. SAE numbers are usually multiples of 5. Guess what, I Googled those numbers and the only place they showed up were here!!
I know what GL means, GL-1 to 4 is not extreme pressure, that starts with GL-5. Some diffs use XP and some don't - it all depends. Some steering gears use XP and some don't. My 4104 diff uses GL-4 and so does my 5 ton White dump. My GMC five ton 630s use GL-4 in the diffs and 50W in the trans - it all depends.
Oil weight has nothing to do with the GL rating, weight is basically based on working conditions and temps.
Having read the Delvac website I don't think the numbers mean a thing except the part number. It's actually 98HL93, and all that means is a 35 lb container of SAE50 synthetic transmission fluid. The exact same product in a 105 lb container is 98HL91. Here are some examples of other part numbers... http://www.paccar.com/truckaccessories/kenworth/Mobil.htm (http://www.paccar.com/truckaccessories/kenworth/Mobil.htm)
If you google the number spelled right, with an L instead of a 1, it works a lot better ;D I got there by googling the name, not the number, so the 1 instead of the L in the original post didn't matter.
Brian
Your right about it being a Part Number.
On my invoice they show the one as 98h193, but the other they show as 98HL98. It would make sense that both would be HL. I didn't catch the difference in their invoice. Good eye Brian.
John
Just an FYI, the pdf file for mobil delvac 50 syn trans fluid states it is NOT to be used in hypoid gears under any purposes including topping up.
Its at the bottom of applications on page 2...
http://www.imperialoil.ca/Canada-English/Files/Products_Lubes/IOCAENCVLMOMobil_Delvac__Syn_Trans_Fluid_50.pdf (http://www.imperialoil.ca/Canada-English/Files/Products_Lubes/IOCAENCVLMOMobil_Delvac__Syn_Trans_Fluid_50.pdf)
I have used it for 6 years and will keep on using things change in oil world in 11 years Paul you know like the Delo 400 vs 100 lol
Clifford, I am trying to really understand your point here. Earlier in this conversation you said you used GL-5 or GL-6 fluid in differentials. GL-5 is the currently a correct rated lube for differentials with hypoid gears, so I completely agree with you on that. GL-6 has been inactive and not used since 1995, so that is obsolete as you said.
Now you are saying that you use GL-4 rated transmission oil in your differentials, since that is what the Delvac 50Wsynthetic transmission fluid that Jok said was put into his differential is rated at. GL-4 is rated for helical gears such as are found in transmissions, and the spec sheet specifically says that it is not to be used in hypoid gear applications that require GL-5.
Your statements are taken with great respect here, and by me in particular, so I really want to understand if you use GL-4 transmission fluid in your differentials. My real concern is that Jok either was told he got the wrong fluid in his diff, or worse - actually DID get the wrong fluid in his diff and needs to get it replaced ASAP.
Thanks, Brian
Brian, I been using the stuff for several years I know this topic has Matt on edge because the Eagle he bought from me has it in the drop box and differential has had for 5 years when I installed the 3:36 gears the front and boogie hubs also oil samples came back fantastic every time
I have owned heavy equipment all my life and it will surprise one what they use in the way of oils I have carried that over to the buses over the years never had a failure .
People use anything they want that it is their option not mine I know one thing for sure the oil co's products go far outside the spec's they furnish for publication, the GL-5 rating is going away
I copied and pasted the number directly from the post and it sure looks like a lower case l to me.
Most differentials I know of since about 1959 or so are hypoid??
As I said, some of my older truck diffs specifically call for none-XP (GL-4) and I have followed that instruction for years. This was also known in the old days as mineral oil.
My 4104 trans calls for 50W Aviation Grade Oil. This is still available, believe it or not, but is now called engine break-in oil and is labeled Mineral Oil. Of course, since it says Aviation on the label, the price is outrageous.
Rather than the Bus manufacturer, I would be curious to know Eaton's opinion on the matter. All I can go by is the oil manufacturer specifically states to not use that oil in hypoid gears.
Between the Govt., the EPA and the oil companies screwing with oil and oil grades they sure have made it confusing. Seems more and more these days, you need a chemical and mechanical engineering degree just to pick out the right oil.
OK - being stubborn as a freaking mule, and also being willing to stand up when I get it wrong... I did a bunch more research.
That Delvac Synthetic 50W trans fluid meets GL-4 specs. GL-4 is appropriate for certain types of hypoid gear applications, particularly those with limited offset and transaxle applications where the oil is shared with a manual transmission, or a clutch type limited slip. It contains the EP additives, just slightly different ones and at a lower percentage, compared to GL-5. GL-5 is recommended for higher off-set hypoid gear differentials and is not recommended where a synchromesh or clutch pack is involved.
So I will stand up and say that Clifford is right, a GL-4 rated fluid can be used safely in the types of differentials that we have on buses and in any manual transmission, synchro or non synchro. GL-5 might be an upgrade choice in a differential such as we use, but it's strictly speaking not required. If you have a synchro gearbox or a limited slip diff I would stay away from using GL5 in it. In all cases follow the manufacturers recommendations, not mine...
Brian
GL-5 apparently has a lot of sulfur based additive to provide the higher EP rating, and is known to attack yellow metals such as syncro rings and bushings.
There is so much push by environmentals to remove all the things they determine to be bad, that I dont believe you can trust even half the information were getting from manufacturers. They are increasingly strong armed into making chemical or engineering changes that effect their product negatively, leaving them to have to BS their products applicability. The continuing reduction of sulfur and zinc from fuel and motor oil, and the engine damage being noted, especially in flat tappet engines, are prime examples of this. Whether it has any real effect on differential and gearbox wear is unknown.
Some of you guys been around a while in heavy trucks and buses, have you noted any increase in ring and pinion failures?
http://www.eaton.com/ecm/groups/public/@pub/@eaton/@roadranger/documents/content/rr_tcmt-0021.pdf (http://www.eaton.com/ecm/groups/public/@pub/@eaton/@roadranger/documents/content/rr_tcmt-0021.pdf)
I'm not seeing any recommendation for 50W in drive axles here, maybe someone else can find it.
50W transmission oil is the same viscosity as 90W gear oil. They are measured on different scales.
Brian
Brian, thanks for researching this stuff, and explaining what you found.
Art, thanks for questioning, cause i didn't know what to question.
Clifford, as usual, thanks for adding experience.
What happens if i check my pumpkin tomorrow, which i was going to do, and it's got 90w regular gear, not synthetic. i need to buy another quart or 2 of oil for my bogie and front axles to bring them up to full. i was going to buy the synthetic which is what i've used before. Can i mix it? How do i know what's currently in the pumpkin? I know i've asked William's and others to check it, but i don't know when it was changed last.
if this is changing the original question, someone let me know and i'll start a new thread.
I don't see the GL rating as being the issue here, the questioning is on the weight! The GLs come in all kinds of weights.
GL-4 is non-extreme pressure and GL-5 is extreme pressure. My understanding is that if GL-5 is used where GL-4 is called for the bearings/bushings can be chemically damaged.
I have no idea what GL-6 is, never have seen any?
Which to use is determined by what the manual says. My two manuals say non-extreme pressure for everything except the steering box of all things!!
I think the main difference for most things is that GL-5 is best for the differential but not for anything else. It has additives that corrode bronze and brass, and hurt the clutch surfaces in synchromesh gear boxes and so on. For most things a GL-4 or lower fluid is fine. I use plain engine oil in all my hubs and the Delvac trans oil in my transmission, and I think that is fine. I use GL-5 in my differential, and that is fine.
90 weight gear oil is very close to 40 - 50 weight trans or engine oil in viscosity. They are measured on different scales. If you need to add oil to your diff, use GL-4 or GL-5. If you need to add oil to your gearbox or hubs, add GL-4. All of the oils can be mixed without question, per my research over the past 15 years (yes, I do carry a grudge... :o )
Brian
I've never seen any 50W oil labeled for transmission use??
The one I use in my 4104 trans is Aviation Mineral Oil since the manual calls for 50W aviation oil, it doesn't call it transmission oil. My '53-'54 GMC five ton trucks call for the same thing so this may just be a GM thing?
The viscosity difference between this and 90W gear oil is obvious when pouring, especially in cold weather.
I sat this one out! For $ reason I just take Mci or Prevost word as what to use. Or if it is no longer available go to my local Jobber and get cross referance. Years ago in a truck I decided to change to syn myself with little knowledge. Resulted in a howl from rear end: changed back to straight 90W and all was safe. Since then on this I default to the mfg and their way. There was no noise before or after I changed back. Yes I know it was wrong syn oil but not to chance on high $ rear end. Bob
My bus's Rockwell Field Maintenance Manual No.5 for Single-Reduction Differential Carriers states that only GL-5 Hypoid Gear Oil should be used. It specifies different viscosities depending on minimum outside temperatures, varying from 75W to 85W/140. Rockwell's Manual No.1 has more information, but I don't have it. Mind you, my manual is dated 1987, and plenty has changed in the world of tribology since then.
John
Quote from: robertglines1 on February 10, 2012, 02:49:22 PM
I sat this one out! For $ reason I just take Mci or Prevost word as what to use. Or if it is no longer available go to my local Jobber and get cross referance. Years ago in a truck I decided to change to syn myself with little knowledge. Resulted in a howl from rear end: changed back to straight 90W and all was safe. Since then on this I default to the mfg and their way. There was no noise before or after I changed back. Yes I know it was wrong syn oil but not to chance on high $ rear end. Bob
My neighbor did the same thing in his dump truck, and had the same results... he had the truck shop change it... so maybe they sold him the wrong thing. He, of course went back to the regular gear oil.
I just use the regular stuff...
Not sure this is the case here, just throwing it out. As stated earlier, EPA has forced changes in light cars and trucks that effect everyone. Lighter, lower viscosity oils, and oils and fuels with lower quantities of sulfur, zinc, and other metals/chemicals they deem are bad for the environment, whether we agree or not thats what we have to live with and it effects us all. We have all read how difficult it can be to find straight 40W, and how so many shops, even DD dealers put the wrong oil in and then BS us its okay/approved.
The 5W20, 5W30 in engines for example, I find great humor in that when you note many of the same exact engines are put into industrial service running a generator or some other type equipment, and suddenly require 20W50. Always fun to have a manufacturer try to explain that one.
Me personally, I like to run lubes at the top end of the temperature chart for extreme conditions. Ive never blown an engine, ever, and only one time in my life had a ring and pinion fail. That was in a SAAB 900 turbo and the gearbox had light synthetic in it, 5W20 IIRC, which the previous owner decided it needed. Because the gearbox shared oil with the differential, SAAB's generally used 10W30 motor oil. Sorry but that stuff is not gear oil, and its certainly not hypoid oil. Found out SAAB had a lot of R&P failures when they turned up the boost in the mid 80's.
I would put in the highest quality grade oil I could find reasonably, with the best lubrication qualities I could determine for that oil, today. Oil composition and formula is changing rapidly now, its becoming dangerous to trust any one brand or grade between oil changes. AFAIC, spiral bevel drive gears, whether they are a true high angle hypoid gear or not, should run hypoid gear oil. But thats just my own opinion.
Quote from: artvonne on February 11, 2012, 09:24:12 AM
The 5W20, 5W30 in engines for example, I find great humor in that when you note many of the same exact engines are put into industrial service running a generator or some other type equipment, and suddenly require 20W50. Always fun to have a manufacturer try to explain that one.
I believe the thin engine oils (5-30 etc) are used to increase fuel economy....FWIW I still run 20-50 in my gas engines in the summer, and 10-40 in the winter (10-30 if I'm feeling scared) but a modern fuel injected gas engine will start at -30 with 10-30 in it no problem
Yes, they put thin oil in only to try and meet CAFE standards. Then they took the zinc out to get all the old flat tappet crap off the roads. Its getting where you need to check BITOG everytime your going to buy oil just to see whats changed in the particular brand or grade you thought was good last time.
Paul, I have a number of street rods and tell You that it is getting hard to find oil that is safe for flat tappet cams and even more important when using high lift cams! I also collect antique tractors and proper lube for them is getting hard to get. For now straight weight diesel oil is the only choice. Regards John L