I was rough quoted $5000-$6000 to install a jake brake on my 4106. Does that sound like a good ball park price. I was under the impression it would be half that price, but it looks like i am way off???
ummm... I'd say that's way off unless it's a DD dealer that gave you the quote.
I paid $500 for a used set which included the tall valve covers off a truck engine, $300 for the rebuild kit, $230 for one tall valve cover without the holes for the vents (yup, that's a lot pay but it sticks out the back, soo.....).
It took me 10 hours to install, wire, test and run the racks.
Hope that helps!
BTW, I love driving my 4106 even more with the Jakes. Worth the money and effort.
Mark
For that kind of coin I would learn to do it myself. I have them on mine and I like them, but I wouldn't like them at that price. I live in an area where there are many steep grades, and I will admit, if my Jake brake quits I pull over and fix it on the side of the road. They work very well on the featherweight 4106.
When Don did mine, it was in conjunction with other work, so I do not know that actual complete cost. However, the rebuilt Jakes were around 900-1000, and I believe the install was less than another 1000. I did do the wiring myself though.
I like most guys, bought a used set, bought the rebuild kits, tools and manuals, then rebuilt and installed. For me, I really do not trust 9 out of 10 so called diesel mechanics, no matter how many DD engines they have screwed up. And after finding the crap/sloppy work done on a 6-71 4104 by Stevenson in Houston, I felt they should have refunded the $600.00 they charged the poor soul for a tune up. Meaning, the entire job, was screwed up, valve adjustment gap ran from .012 to .030. As for the rack, it would only open approx. 70% and all injectors were not on the same page as the others. Total slop, sign the "Expert Mechanic was drunk or just did not give a Da@
I recommend you learn how to fix your own stuff, it will save you a lot of money snf will most likely run better.
Cheers
i bought mine for $1000, complete, no fast idle. another $2k for the install by someone else who originally said $1500. (said it was tight space, took longer than anticipated, etc.) already had the valve covers.
your price sounds real high. i'd look elsewhere.
Do it youself- learn - keep other folks grubby hands off your bus - I DO
Hi Mike,
Here is my Jake Install thread from a few years ago.
http://www.busconversions.com/bbs/index.php?topic=5045.0 (http://www.busconversions.com/bbs/index.php?topic=5045.0)
Hope this helps!
Nick-
The only tricky part of installing the jake brake setup is getting the new exhaust bridge adjusted. Depending on how tight things are around the engine I can see that taking some time to get right, since it needs to be done carefully and accurately, and both on and off the head. That assumes that the jake modules and the exhaust bridges are ready to go and no issues (I had to have the bridges refinished on mine)
After the bridges are adjusted and installed, it's just a matter of re-installing the valve rockers, bolting on the jake modules, adjusting the oil bridges between master and slave modules, adjusting all the valves, checking the timing on the injectors (no real reason why it would have changed, but you have to check and reset if needed). Then you adjust the jake clearance and that part of the install is basically done. Now, you have to install the new fuel piping to the injectors and check the rack adjustment - you don't disturb the rack adjustment so it shouldn't have to be reset, but you should check. Now the final step is to install the wiring, wire back to the buffer switch and up to the front of the bus with your choice of switches and interlocks - a clutch switch on a manual trans, for example. Single or double bank switching for single or double stage jake engagement.
After you do that, you need to install the buffer switch in place of the buffer screw on the governor (I have no idea what you do with a DDEC, which I presume doesn't have a buffer switch), and adjust the buffer switch setting. Then you have to test it all to see if it works. Then you get to take it for a drive and be amazed at what you have accomplished!
None of this requires weirdly special tools or skills that a good mechanic doesn't have, but some of it is fiddly. I am going to say that from the time you open the box of used jake stuff that you got off Ebay to parking the bus after the test drive is going to take at least 20 hours, if you include a trip to the machine shop to refinish the exhaust bridges, getting new O-rings for the oil bridges, checking the fuel bridge pipes for cracking or switching from the flare type pipes to the O-ring type pipes like I did, figuring out the wiring, installing the switches on your dash panel, the neutral switch or clutch switch, the actual mechanical work, which is easy, the adjustments of the valves, the injector timing, checking the fuel rack adjustments, and setting the buffer switch correctly. On my bus, for example, I'd have to take the turbo plumbing and air cleaner off just to get the drivers side valve cover off...
Anyway, that's what we are talking about when we say "just install them yourself..." ;D
Edit - just read Nick's thread, got the impression of - two guys, two days for the initial install, another day for the second go to fix the bad solenoids, figure a day for the rebuild, total of 6 days. Kind of in line with my thought on 20 hours for the initial install including the adjustments and the wiring. Every one will be different!
Brian
Jake Brake bridges are getting hard to find for a 71 series that are with in spec a new set of bridges if you can find a set will cost a 1000 bucks just for the bridges you cannot redo the slot on a bridge and that is where you get the most wear,if you do piece a set together use the 71/92A housing don't waste your money on the old 71 Jake housing.
Get you some help from someone that knows about Jakes on your 71 series if A timing is on your 71 series engine it takes a different setting from standard timed engines some people do good installing Jakes some are not so lucky
I have seen a bunch of blown engines from people trying to save a few bucks by doing it their self 2000 to 3000 dollars should get you a good set and installation
You pay 500 bucks for a set you get 500 bucks worth of parts most of the time JMO Two friends of mine Derrick and Mike here on the board Derrick was lucky on the set he bought needed nothing Mike wasn't that lucky it took 2 sets for Mike to make 1 good set.
As for the valve covers it makes no difference where the holes are for the breather DD sell covers for the breather holes a lot cheaper than 230 bucks something like 12 bucks
You will have to do a cutout on the tailgate for Jakes if you don't know what you are doing suggest you leave the Jakes alone
good luck
Clifford, are you aware of a reason why you couldn't weld up the slot and re-machine it? I think it would be a tricky weld since I believe the bridges are cast iron, but there are processes to weld cast iron. The machine work would be easy once you built a jig. I would be more worried at that point about the guide hole that they ride on wearing out. I didn't think that they were particularly hardened, they didn't look like they were nitrided or anything like that, and when I asked my machinist (who used to specialize in marine two strokes back when they were more common) he said he never thought they were hardened.
Brian
Brian, the bridges are design to wear and not the bridge studs if you ever broke or replaced a bridge stud in the head that is a good feature the studs are a pita to replace lol not as easy as the book shows
good luck
A new "how to" thread for DIY Jakes install with lots of pictures and discussion would be awesome.
Quote from: OneLapper on January 31, 2012, 08:10:08 PM
ummm... I'd say that's way off unless it's a DD dealer that gave you the quote.
I paid $500 for a used set which included the tall valve covers off a truck engine, $300 for the rebuild kit, $230 for one tall valve cover without the holes for the vents (yup, that's a lot pay but it sticks out the back, soo.....).
It took me 10 hours to install, wire, test and run the racks.
It was big name brand in Houston that gave the quote. I like your (and all the others on this thread) price range. I work on my own cars/bike most of the time. I have never worked on a Detroit. I do want to learn it. Thanks for the info.
Thank all of you for your responses.
Barn Owl, when I heard the price I was thinking the same thing.
Wg4t50 & NoRivets: over the years I have worked on my own stuff because I either didn't trust the mechanic or just didn't have the money. In most cases, I found that the job wasn't near as bad as I thought. I am going to research what exactly is involved and consider trying it.
Nick, thanks for the thread. Reading it now.
Brian, thanks for the details of the process. Your post is very encouraging for me to try it myself. With the HOA having a 7 day limit on how long the bus can stay in the driveway at a time, it will be like an episode of American Chopper... got 7 days to get this done before the HOA lady takes a picture of my bus and sends me a nasty letter... lol
Clifford, thanks for the info and advice. I didn't realize I would have to cut a slot in the back for the valve cover. If you know (or anyone else) knows of a mechanic I can get this installed for $3000 within a few states of Texas, please send me their info. I have no problem helping with the install or staying out of the way. The issue I have is with mechanics is finding one I can trust.
Lin & white-eagle (anyone else I forgot) thanks for the pricing info.
Maybe if I can do some of the grunt work and get a Mechanic to come to my house and to the technical side of it I can get this done at a reasonable price.
Wg4t50: the same outfit is the one that gave me the quote.
Thanks again everyone.
Mike, FWIW my MCI manual has a very detailed section on installing jake brakes, from start to finish. I have no idea why they put it in the bus manual, but there it is... If you want a copy, let me know and I will see about how to do that.
Brian
You will find the service and installation manuals at Jakebrake.com.
JC
A lot of guys putting jakes on a 4106, '07, '08, 4903 take the easy way and install an after market R&M fiberglass tailgate. They look OK but I prefer the vintage look. A good sheetmetal guy can fab an alumimun piece to clear the valve cover and with nice riviting it looks almost OEM. A lot cheaper too. I got my jakes for the 6L71TA for free when the local distributor was clearing out their 2 stroke used parts, then had them overhaul the set. Cost 750. including two solinoid units instead of just one. Also got the cast alum Jake valve cover there for 50.00 which is very hard to find now, almost impossible. You should track down an old timer somewhere that wants a week project and spent his career working on 2 strokes. They have the feel and tools and would probably do the job for a song. Now days most Detroit shops don't even have anyone that knows anything about a 2 stroke since the S60 came out in the mid '80's, 25 years ago.
Quote from: lostagain on February 01, 2012, 07:59:19 AM
You will find the service and installation manuals at Jakebrake.com.
JC
Thats awesome, thank you
Unless you're pressed for time, doing things yourself brings with it a great deal of satisfaction and understanding of your systems on the bus. Jakes are very interesting, but not beyond the realm of a busnut that likes to dig in and figure it out. Take your time and enjoy the journey.
Jakes are not that hard to install if you pay attention, what I see is bridges not set right that will cost you a valve to cup,then you see installs where people didn't back off the push rod and use the starter to rotate the engine Jake bridges are thicker than than the standard, then people try to adjust the valves with the bridge adjustment screw,then they try to adjust the bridges on the engine and break the guide,some won't spend the 20 bucks for a Jake gauge the list goes on and last they will screw a buffer switch into the housing to far start the engine and it is off to races the engine will blow most of the time before you can shut one down.
I really have a hard time with why people want Jakes on a 2 stroke the 2 stage Jakes on a DD is a waste of time and money too me if you have 3:36 gears and a 740 the Jakes don't hold much back till you down shift to 2nd gear but we don't all think a like lol
q
Comparing Jakes effectiveness on 2-strokes vs other types of engines is easy - I have No other experience to relate to. So I think they are great ! - I just don't know any difference.
They work pretty well for coming down I-17 from Prescott (home) to Phoenix and from Kingman to Laughlin and from Flagstaff to Ashfork (turn off to Prescott). I hardly have to use the service brakes at all. But I'm prepared to at all times and I keep the speed down and I run down the hills in second at 45 anyway.
Like I said - I like them and for me there just 'wonnerfull' ;D
I completely respect Clifford's opinion on this. He has vast knowledge about this and a lot more. But taking time and being very careful and understanding why each step of the installation is critical - I think Jakes can be installed successfully and you can learn how to maintain them properly.
Lot's depend on the weight and gearing of the bus no way can you come down I 17 in 4th gear with 3:36 gears and the Jakes hold you back with a 2 stroke lol you running in 2nd and 45 mph helps a great deal that is the way you do it
Quote from: luvrbus on February 02, 2012, 04:30:58 AM
I really have a hard time with why people want Jakes on a 2 stroke the 2 stage Jakes on a DD is a waste of time and money too me if you have 3:36 gears and a 740 the Jakes don't hold much back till you down shift to 2nd gear but we don't all think a like lol
Clifford, I don't disagree with you much cause usually I don't know enough and you are usually correct. But, this time, in my experience, you are wrong. I have a much easier time with jakes, and never having to touch a brake on the way down hills on I77, Fancy Gap included. And my trip to Colorado would have been brake and nerve wearing. We had the bus for about 2 years before we put the jakes on.
If I was going to travel a lot through mountains and hills, i would spend the bucks or the time to do it.
2 strokes don't carry enough oil pressure at low rpms for the Jakes to be effective then the Allison will free wheel at low rpm you always have to keep down shifting to keep the Jakes engaged and you can just go so far with that they do help but if you ever drive a 4 stroke Cummins.Cat or series 60 now those are Jakes lol ,they work so good most have 3 stages on 6 cyl engine 2 cyl on a series 60 has more braking power than 6 on a 2 stroke
FWIW Trailways or the Hounds never ran Jakes on the 2 strokes and did just fine in the Rockies lol but if you like Jakes install a set
I do it all the time for people that want a set I have 8v71 here now for a install and sent one out a week or back with just a 1/2 set installed he will be back in the fall for the rest after I make his air horn just for info I have always had Jakes on my 2 strokes the 8v92's
Quote from: luvrbus on February 02, 2012, 04:30:58 AM
Jakes are not that hard to install if you pay attention, what I see is bridges not set right that will cost you a valve to cup,then you see installs where people didn't back off the push rod and use the starter to rotate the engine Jake bridges are thicker than than the standard, then people try to adjust the valves with the bridge adjustment screw,then they try to adjust the bridges on the engine and break the guide,some won't spend the 20 bucks for a Jake gauge the list goes on and last they will screw a buffer switch into the housing to far start the engine and it is off to races the engine will blow most of the time before you can shut one down.
I really have a hard time with why people want Jakes on a 2 stroke the 2 stage Jakes on a DD is a waste of time and money too me if you have 3:36 gears and a 740 the Jakes don't hold much back till you down shift to 2nd gear but we don't all think a like lol
When I approach a project that I can either hire out or do myself one of the considerations is the cost of additional tools. In the case of my original quote $5k on the low side. If I can buy the jakes and tools for $5k AND do the job with a degree of confidence, then that is how I would do it. In the end, I have the job done and the tools and knowledge to boot. For most of my years I HAD to work on my own stuff simply because I didn't have the money to pay someone to do it for me. Overtime when I did have someone do some jobs for me I saw the lack of quality in their work, so I would ONLY use a mechanic if I really trusted them or had no choice. In the case of the bus, well it is a new realm for me. I have considered buying a 8v71 and rebuilding it, just to learn how. I hear you guys talk about the dying art of 2cyl Detroit mechanics. What will be the case in 10 years? I can't see it getting any better. I have another 40 years of busin left in me.
That being said, the gentleman I purchased the bus from drove it as is all over this country. He advised me on mountain driving and how to approach it. He drove this bus without jakes. He did say it would be a nice addition to the bus, but he never said it was necessary either. We have a trip planned in July to go to North Carolina. There are several things I would like to do to the bus before the trip so I am not sure the Jakes will happen before the trip.
One thing the guy mentioned to me when he gave me the quote for the jakes, the cost of programming them. I haven't heard none of you guys mention that. He may have used a different term... but it stuck in my mind as programming. I assume it is a new version of jakes that require that?
Doesn't take that many tools you can buy tuneup kits for 300 bucks and Jake gauge for 20,
I don't buy into no 2 stroke people in the future the best and brightest come from our military there is a young lady at WW Williams in Vegas maybe 25 or so years old that can wrench on a 2 stroke with best if not better she showed this old dog how to set a injector on a 2 stroke without a pin or dial indicator and I checked her with a pin and she was on the money something they learn in training
good luck
I'll put forward the thought that there is no "dying art of 2 stroke mechanics", there is just a lack of interest and opportunity to learn. I got pretty far into my engine, about the only thing I didn't do is take the heads off and take the long block apart. I was into everything but the crank, the cams and the piston kits. What I learned is that, at the end of the day, it's something a reasonably competent mechanic who is willing to study the situation can deal with. Yes, there are special tools you need - available on Ebay at 25 cents on the dollar. Yes, there is a bunch of stuff in the tune-up that is fiddly as heck, setting up the rack is about like balancing 8 carburetors on a motorcycle... Yes, there sure are ways to blow it up if you start in on the governor without reading and figuring out the book first. But at the end of the day, it's just an engine.
I'm impressed with Clifford's story about the young veteran - the military is going to be one of the best trade schools out there, and has been for years. You get disciplined, hard working, skilled young people capable of doing engineering, construction, mechanics, driving, all sorts of "manual" trades that seem to be completely overlooked these days. I learned countless skills in the military that I retain and use to this day, I rate it as one of the most important periods of my life.
Brian
My Youngest two of six sons serve in the US army. One of them is a 62B person and regularly works on DD 2 stroke's. He is of the opinion that in the desert if You want to get home at the end of the day choose a DD 2 stroke! He is just finishing His fourth tour so should have a valid opinion when it comes to reliability! the DD in the HEMET which is a wrecker that weighs more than any of Our buses is used to tow anything it can be chained to, uses the 8V92 coupled to a Allison tranny. He said they are run boot on the floor day in and out and give no trouble. His opinion of cummins and cat are not very high. Funny enough He was amused when I asked Him about engine oil usage. They use multigrade in all of the diesel engines and They have no problems with the DD's. 120 ambient air temperature, multigrade oil working at a level that far exceeds any of our requirements and by the way the engine's are not shut down for very long periods of time. In short This young SFC says He has never had a engine failure. As a retired air force person I have like others have mentioned used My military life experiences through My whole working life and am grateful for the skills I acquired from the military. When the chance arises tell the lady thanks for serving. Regards John L
I was one of the lucky ones. Clifford was able to find time to install my Jake's. The reason I say lucky is that he looked over the "kit" that I bought from another Busnut and said " you sure have you a box of parts there". I knew I was in trouble at that point. If I didn't know the parts where useless, how could I justify trying to install them myself?. Clifford gave me a couple of sources to find another "Kit" that met specs and we where able to complete the task. I had the "cut out box" made up at a local sheet metal shop and that set me back about $100.00. We where preparing the 4106 for a repaint so that wasn't a problem.
Two weeks after I left Clifford's the Utahclaimjumper and I convoyed to Yellowstone via the Tetons and Jackson WY. Let me tell you, climbing those grades is one thing but looking down the other side is truly an awakening. I have no idea how those "old timers" drove those Mtns without Jake's.
I for one think they are a quality addition to my Bus and I found that I use them more each trip I make.
Jakes are nice to have. I have them on both my buses and enjoy them. The most powerful ones were on the S 60 of the hockey team's 102D.
However, they are not necessary.
We never had them on the 2 stroke Detroits, until the 4 strokes came out. We just geared down as much as it took to get down safely. And it was just as safe, just slower.
JC