I have searched and can not find any info on this topic.
I have a 83 MCI-9 and when I get places I seem to be finding myself on more un-level ground then level.
I have used 4x4 and 2x4 under tires to get the bus level but it is all a guessing game, due to after a few days of being parked and the bus air settles out and it will not be level anymore..
so what are others using? have you installed leveling kits? or just made wood ramps etc?
also are your bus loosing air when parked or settling after a few days? mine usually drops to 65PSI after a few days
thanks for any info
Bruiser,
I leveled our bus with blocks up until last year. I had a simple leveling system installed that just includes 3 guages and 3 push-pull type valves (2 for the rear, 1 for front). Eliminated the factory ride height control valves. One of the best things I've done for the bus. Found out all of my leaking down suspension issues were from leaking ride height valves, now the bags stay aired up for months! These bags were replaced within the last 4 years.
I initially was concerned that i'd miss the factory ride height system, but once I figured what the sweet spot was for the air pressure, I just fill them to my settings and hit the road. No way would I go back to having those valves, definitely not needed in our applications.
Brandon
x2 what Brandon said. I installed a similar typr system about a year ago and it has been awesome. I put the system together myself. Total cost including new dot airlines to all the bags with all associated fittings was around $250.
10-4 on the tossing the leveling valves and using the air suspension for a leveling system.
One thing to be VERY careful of though, is rear ride height. The driveshaft needs to run in a perfectly straight line between the transmission and axle at all times. Running the Coach higher or lower at the rear will put an angle on the driveshaft and it can wear rapidly. The automatic levelers keep the ride height pretty close to optimum height and you want to do the same. The front isnt critical in that way, but you dont want to run un-level front to rear. Just find the correct height in the back and match the front.
I want it as simple a system as practical. Im thinking gauges, mini pressure regulators, and some kind of push-pull dump valves. Once your parked the Bus does not need to be standing a foot in the air, you can drop it down so your step in is more reasonable.
so did you guys buy a system if so what kind, brand etc..
I have had air bag systems on trucks I have had in past.. and what you describe sounds just like that.. gauges showing pressure with release valves connected to compressor so I could control bad height? does that sound correct?
There isnt any system you can buy, you make your own. Your working with standard DOT airline. You need some basic hardware store plumbing or gas valve parts, etc..
You currently have an air line running to both axles. The front has one leveling valve, the rear axle has two valves. The rear axle levels from side to side while maintaining ride height up and down. The front only maintains ride height (up and down), both sides are interconnected. You want to bypass the leveling valves, but you need to control air bag pressure at the three current valve locations.
Its really not that complicated you just need to understand what you have and how you want to go about altering it. You can do searches online as well as these forums, there is a lot of information to help you figure this out. It is quite common to hear people say their bus stopped leaking down flat overnight (or within hours) after getting rid of the leveling valves. Many will sit for months without dropping once the system is bypassed.
As always some really great information here. I have been pondering the same question back and forth but haven't gotten that far yet. Does anyone who has done this have any pictures they could post of what kind of valves and gauges they used and they set them up in the bus? Thanks in advance.
Billy
How are you Leveling your Bus when parked?
small piles of 2x6
cheap, effective and they don't fail!
Ive done a lot of reading on this over the last few years, as well as looking at a lot of pictures ive found online on these forums. Ive seen setups I wouldn't want, real plumbers nightmares. Ive seen other systems that while very professional looking, rely too heavily on electronics making the system much more complex than I want or need. But obviously everyone has their own needs and desires, as well as their own abilities. Perhaps the Bus is, for many of us, a place to show off our talents as much as anything else, a "look what I can do" blank sheet of canvas.
3 point system vs 4 point. There is a great deal of discussion on this. I dont personally believe you could twist the Bus anymore than what a pot hole would do. But there really is no need to split the front axle system. There is much greater weight on the rear axle, the 3 point system works perfectly well, its just adding un-needed complexity to split the front.
Keep the levelers or say bye bye. Were building an RV not a passenger coach. Your never going to have 5 tons of passengers coming and going, or tons of weight of passengers moving about, or cargo bays fully filling and emptying. Once the bags are at a set pressure out on the road to set ride height, its not going to change much. We've all read, or experienced what running a diesel fuel tank empty will do, at most were looking at 300-350 pounds of change at the front axle burning off fuel. And whatever were carrying in our fresh water or waste tanks, its not going to change until we stop somewhere to dump or take on water. I vote to get rid of the valves and simplify your life.
Looking at my Bus, I need to tap into the line to the rear, add one extra line to the rear, and run new a line to the front. I will remove all three leveling valves and connect the lines direct to the air bag feed. I'll put three mini regulators with gauges on a manifold, and mount the manifold on the dash somewhere fed with line pressure off the Bus main air supply. I will run the three lines up to the manifold/regulators and im done. If needed I could put shut off/dump valves in the system.
You can buy the system from HWH and others they are a little pricey for what you get check out www.hwhcorp.com (http://www.hwhcorp.com) there are some schematics for air levers on the HWH site fwiw
good luck
Heres what Gumpy did. Quite interesting if I might say.
http://www.gumpydog.com/Bus/MC9_WIP/Mechanical/Leveling_System/leveling_system.htm (http://www.gumpydog.com/Bus/MC9_WIP/Mechanical/Leveling_System/leveling_system.htm)
I use run-up blocks, and sometimes a shovel to dig a hole for the tires to nestle into. My suspension stays up for a long time, so that works for me. Adding a system to work the air bags is definitely on the list though.
Brian
One of our members used to sell leveling systems, I got one of the last he built, that went between the factory valves and the air bag. Mine is wired so the factory valves are enabled when the ignition is on and the manual valves are enabled when the ignition is off.
The Courier 96 didn't have a levelling system. I just used wood blocks when needed, and never wished I had a fancy system.
The 5C came from the PO with a nice system operated from the dash with switches and yea, it is nice. And hasn't given me trouble yet. One advantage is you can raise or lower the bus if need be, which is handy.
If I was building a bus, I probably would go with a simple valve system to manually inflate/deflate the air bags, and do away with the levelling valves.
JC
Quite a while back I remember a post on the board of someone putting a small pancake style air compressor in one of the baggage bays. He installed a receptacle at that location and plumbed it into the bus air. When plugged in and air valve opened to the bus air system it kept the air pressure up and if you are trying to leave a campground early in the morning you don't have to fast idle to build pressure. I take no credit for this just giving the previous author his dues.
Quote from: Lee Bradley on January 26, 2012, 04:33:30 PM
One of our members used to sell leveling systems, I got one of the last he built, that went between the factory valves and the air bag. Mine is wired so the factory valves are enabled when the ignition is on and the manual valves are enabled when the ignition is off.
That's Pete Pappas. IIRC, Pete now is selling just the schematic w/ the parts list.
Best of both worlds - automatic leveling on the highway, manual at the campsite.
At roughly $150 for three new leveling valves, I'd start there and then add Pete's system - IF you decide to forgo wooden blocks.
FWIW & HTH. . .
;)
Everybody's got a different idea of what will work for them.
Mine started out with four push-pull valves with gauges and a line to each corner(bag) or (pair of bags-rear). Disconnected the factory valves.
Discovered that leveling bus after stops(parking) was PITA. Hard to get good drive line alignment and equal height all the way around. By the way - equal pressure doesn't mean equal height!
So I ended up buying five air solenoids from Pete and figuring out way to keep the best of both worlds. Manual when parked to get comfortable leveling -- Factory leveling for getting back on the road
with the flip of a switch.
P.S. - my bus has one leveling valve in the rear and one on each side in the front- most buses are the opposite. Another note: One of the solenoids ties the rear pairs of bags together for factory leveling and keeps them separate for parking.
Works for me.
Another note: I chose to use DOT line and DOT fittings throughout- No hardware store stuff. Again - just me !
Quote from: artvonne on January 26, 2012, 01:37:03 PM
We've all read, or experienced what running a diesel fuel tank empty will do, at most were looking at 300-350 pounds of change at the front axle burning off fuel. And whatever were carrying in our fresh water or waste tanks, its not going to change until we stop somewhere to dump or take on water.
The actual weight any liquid will vary slightly based on exact chemical composition, temperature, specific gravity, etc.
But consider these ballpark weights:
--Diesel fuel = 7.2 pounds per U. S. gallon.
--Unleaded gasoline = 6.1 pounds per U. S. gallon.
--Clean water = 8.33 pounds per U. S. gallon.
--Propane = 4.23 pounds per U. S. gallon.
So my 119-gallon diesel tank holds 868.7 pounds of fuel.
A side note: In my trucking days, my boss would always say that we should consider a loss of 1% in fuel economy for every 100 pounds of added weight. That data always seemed exaggerated to me.
See the excellent RV liquids online weight calculator here: http://changingears.com/rv-sec-calc-liquid-weight.shtml (http://changingears.com/rv-sec-calc-liquid-weight.shtml)
No matter what your leveling decision is, let me recommend you do carry some 2 by 6 boards. If you ever have an outside flat on your duals on a busy road, you drive the INSIDE tire up on the boards, and change the tire without the need to jack up your bus. Yes: It only works on the outside rear flats.
And the small air compressors will get the coach air up...am planning on doing that.
I made my own 12v air solenoid system. At each automatic air leveling valve (I still have them) I have a normally open and two normally closed valves. The normally open valve is between the automatic leveling valve and the air bag. When I want to level the bus, I turn on the normally closed valve and that stops the air from the automatic leveling valve. Then T'eed into the space between the normally open valve and the air bags is the two normally closed valves-one plumbed to the air pressure and the other to release pressure. When I get to a campsite, I turn on all valves, level the bus, and within a few seconds are done with leveling. It will stay for about 3 days, then settle down. This is where an electric air compressor would be nice instead of starting the big engine to build up air pressure again. Good Luck, TomC
Quote from: Mex-Busnut on January 27, 2012, 04:42:21 AM
So my 119-gallon diesel tank holds 868.7 pounds of fuel.
A side note: In my trucking days, my boss would always say that we should consider a loss of 1% in fuel economy for every 100 pounds of added weight. That data always seemed exaggerated to me.
If you top off at the 1/2 way point your only making a 400 some pound change, about the same as a couple fatties getting in/out. I would be surprised to see much movement in ride height.
Not sure of 1% either, but its interesting. There is a real advantage to keeping the weight down, in many more ways than just burning fuel.
Ok... 10,000 lbs over the shell weigh means i will get zero mpg... either me or the wife has to get out and walk... ;D
I replaced the fixed adjustment rods on my three ride-height valves with small linear actuators. I get the best of both worlds without any modifications to the air system.
BTW, the difference between empty tanks and full tanks on our bus is in the neighborhood of 4,650 pounds, or nearly 10% of the overall weight of the coach, so I don't buy the notion that the ride-height valves are ineffective on conversions. On top of that, the Neoplan ride-height valves actually come into play on curves, with the front valves compensating for the lean induced by centripetal force.
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com (http://ourodyssey.blogspot.com)
Man this interesting that is why I had a Eagle with HWH hydraulic levers hard to beat lol
good luck
Bussman84, here's a shot of my valves and gauges, nothing fancy at all. Left gauge is left rear, middle is front, right is right rear. Sitting on incline, almost all air out of right to level coach. Looks like I need to do some stainless polishing. ::)
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi868.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fab243%2Fbrando4905%2Fphoto16.jpg&hash=653531f9728f0ecbd5259952ff1d2f88565850b9)
I used the system from h b industries the kit came complete for $550.00 and was easy to install .no more loss of air and I could adjust for rough ground . dave
I intend to only run fuel down to half a tank, and fill the water up full with empty waste tanks, and run until the waste tank is full. I just cant imagine ever having all the tanks empty, or all the tanks full, at the same time.
I expect to see a max weight change on the front axle of less than 500 pounds from burning fuel, and virtually zero weight change at the rear.
Bussman, where did you get the push/pull valves?
Pretty well every time we go anywhere, all tanks are full: fuel and fresh water. You never know if there will be fresh water available at the next stop. And it is comforting to know you have a full tank of fuel. Sometimes we'll sit dry camping at some dirt bike race for 3 days. I have 2 teen age boys and often their friends, and they all need showers every day being sweaty after racing. And they want to power wash their bikes... We've run out of water at times by Sunday. And that's if their mother is not with us, LOL. So we'll pull out empty of water, half a tank of fuel, and dump the sewage at the first opportunity, and drive home light. So I suppose levelling valves are good to have.
JC
Sean's system is similar to Bob Giles, except that he does it with cables.
Sean- I was wondering how you determine the neutral position on your actuators. I can see that if one used a cable, you could just mark the spot that equaled the road ride height and lock it down. But with an actuator, I imagine that the road ride height length is about the middle of the actuator travel, which gives you room to both inflate and deflate the air bags. I am unclear, therefore, on how you determine where to set the actuator for the road.
Quote from: artvonne on January 27, 2012, 10:09:34 AM
If you top off at the 1/2 way point your only making a 400 some pound change, about the same as a couple fatties getting in/out. I would be surprised to see much movement in ride height.
Hey I resemble that comment!
;D
Quote from: Lin on January 27, 2012, 09:23:21 PM
Sean- I was wondering how you determine the neutral position on your actuators. I
I bought actuators with position feedback, specifically a high-turns potentiometer. The wiper position of the pot is directly related to the extended position of the actuator.
There are lots of ways to use that information to center the actuators, for example, you could just put an ohmeter on it and note the reading at the desired center location. What I chose to do instead, because it saved a few bucks and made for a simpler-to-use system, was to build a circuit using two voltage comparators, two trimmer pots, and two LEDs per actuator. I know the actuator is centered when both LEDs are lit; when only one is lit, it tells me if that actuator is higher or lower than center. I can tell at a glance the status of all three actuators.
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-vM1WuWavxNE/TyQdt0XZxyI/AAAAAAAABHA/ohub_6yf0hY/s640/levelcontrol.jpg)
Photo of level control (sorry, it needs a cleaning, and stainless is hard to photograph) showing both front actuators "high" and rear actuator "centered."Quote
I imagine that the road ride height length is about the middle of the actuator travel, which gives you room to both inflate and deflate the air bags.
Yes, we deliberately installed the actuators in such a way that the middle of their travel would be approximately the factory-spec ride height, so we had adjustment available in both directions. This system also lets me set a higher ride height for humps and swales (we have lousy angles of approach and departure) or a lower one to get under bridges with 13'0" clearance.
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com (http://ourodyssey.blogspot.com)
Sean,
That certainly is a cool looking system. I have been thinking of doing Bob's cable system because of its relative simplicity, but haven't done anything yet. I would guess that the centering method you use would seem less complex if I even knew what the parts were. Thanks.
While I dream about having Sean's system I know I'm not smart enough to build it so we carry landing pads in varying heights. Its surprising how rarely we need to deploy them. They serve double duty as an entry step, as a base for the hydraulic jack and occasionally as stepping stones to get across the river at Quartzsite.
Was never a problem with us when we owned a MCI just sleep with the head up and the feet down
I guess you are not a bat then.
Hi Sean
Would you happen to have any details or pics of you actuators you have or could post and a link to the ones you have?
Thanx
glen
Hello. Pete from daytona used to sell kits, but he sold his bus and may not have any more parts. Pete Pappas. I have one of his systems. Works well,
Look it up should be lots of info in the old posts about that subject.
regards. Mike
Quote from: Aussiecoach on January 29, 2012, 02:23:41 PM
... Would you happen to have any details or pics of you actuators you have or could post and a link to the ones you have?
I used Electrak-1 actuators, because I found a bunch of lightly-used ones on eBay at a good price. New units of this type are spendy, so you want to shop around.
Here's a photo of the installation:
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fodyssey.smugmug.com%2FOther%2FMiscellaneous-Stuff%2FIMG0893%2F264678481_yi2N2-M.jpg&hash=d0550af843e23b4535f74e0ed0228df4694f9630)
The wheel is removed in this photo, but you can clearly see the actuator and how it fits in with the ride-height valve. We had to modify the arm on the height valve because the actuator was a good deal longer than the fixed adjusting rod.
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com (http://ourodyssey.blogspot.com)
Thanx Sean
As we can all clearly see, there are many ways to skin a cat. You dont have to be an electrical engineer or have $$$ falling out of your pockets to build a "system". You can go from a simple and inexpensive mechanical setup, up to something sophisticated, to possibly even something more complex and expensive, its all up to you, your ability, needs, knowledge, wants, desires. We can be sure someone out there could even figure out how to computerize the darn thing. Keep the levelers, or throw them away, its all up to you. There is no "right" way.
The thing is, is that with an air suspension system, we have at our disposal a built in leveling system that can work beautifully, and it affords us a plethora of ways to accomplish our goals. Just watch your ride height and youll be okay.
hi, I think i am going with sean's setup. my question is,how many pounds pressure does the actuator need to have,and how many inches of throw? Thanks, Mike
Quote from: mikke60 on February 01, 2012, 12:59:02 PM
hi, I think i am going with sean's setup. my question is,how many pounds pressure does the actuator need to have,and how many inches of throw? Thanks, Mike
Mike, I also got your PM on this.
I think you will find the answers to your questions in my post on this topic from 2008:
http://www.busconversions.com/bbs/index.php?topic=7632.msg74868#msg74868 (http://www.busconversions.com/bbs/index.php?topic=7632.msg74868#msg74868)
I would suggest, actually, to everyone reading this thread that they go back and read that one, too, as we covered a lot of good ground there.
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com (http://ourodyssey.blogspot.com)
How ever you do it you are lieing to the leveling valve anchor point. It's that simple and you increase or decrease the air pressure in that air bag/bags. You can even eleminate the levelers and use pressure guages to do that. Do what you understand and are comfortable with. If your air system leaks down you will need a electric back up air compressor-I have one that runs 2 to 3 minutes a day to maintain above 65 lb air pressure required to bypass brake protection valve. I have it set to kick off at 90. It also keeps my air door tight. Enjoy. Bob