Taking a page from another thread, I thought I would start a thread a few of us tin foil hat wearers might find interesting.
Without getting into the probablity of an EMP happening, or the craziness of it or whatever, I simply thought it could be interesting to discuss the situation from the direction of keeping our rig functioning if we got hit with a real good one.
We start with the premise that it is going to occur, and it will wipe out all transistors, micro processors, integrated circuits, computers, ECM's, etc... Things that I have read suggest condenser/capacitors will likely fail as well, and my Uncle concurs. No one has said anything about diodes, and I havnt asked, so lets throw those in too. So lets accept the worst case suggestions, that all these sensitive electrical items will be destroyed, that the only parts left within 1000 miles that will still function are protected in a faraday cage and buried.
So were 700 miles away from home partying at some pretty campground with our Bus buddies. The EMP strikes and everything discussed has been damaged. Which kind of systems or which particular Bus would be the best to own at that moment?
One you could live in. ;D
Answer,
Electromagnetic Shielding...
Nick-
Quote from: artvonne on January 10, 2012, 02:08:50 PM
So were 700 miles away from home partying at some pretty campground with our Bus buddies. The EMP strikes and everything discussed has been damaged. Which kind of systems or which particular Bus would be the best to own at that moment?
I'd recommend the driver avoid wearing a pacemaker.
One wearing a tin foil hat! (Sorry, couldn't resist ...) :D
A MUI Detroit doesn't actually need electricity to run, as long as you have a hill to bump start it...
Brian
I'm guessing any completely non-electronic vehicle would still be driveable, but those of us blessed/cursed with DDEC would be SOL. Too bad that DDEC engines cannot be made to run, at least in limp-home mode, without their electronics working. If I recall, one of Mercedes' early electronic fuel injection systems (was it CIS?) for their cars in the 1970s had that ability, potentially very useful if electrons ceased to flow. (Mind you, my 1970 Mercedes had mechanical fuel injection, sort of like Messerschmidt fighter engines had in WW2, and it worked just fine without any ECM. It even automatically compensated for altitude and temperature.)
My friend's two old buses would still run, but mine would be dead in the water. Such is progress!
John
Question, will an emp or huge solar flare take out a battery? If not I would think me and my mc7 would have the roads pretty much to ourselves! At least till I ran out of fuel. John M.
http://www.solarstormwarning.com/ (http://www.solarstormwarning.com/)
I haven't read or heard anything about it harming batteries except from shorts in connected equipment. But an alternator and solid state regulator isn't going to make it. You'll only be able to run until your batteries die. Though as Brian points out, the engine really does not need electrical power to run other than to turn the starter. The older DC generators and mechanical voltage regulators will likely survive as long as they aren't struck with high voltage from the E3 component.
Maybe ET can help us repair damage from the EMP assuming that the EPA, NASA, and DOD allow the UFO an ETA. WOW, this has got ME thinking of MOON PIES (which they could pick up on the way) for the FT since I was a KID. At least WE have LPG so me and the MILF can stay warm.
wow...
The the B-25 was named after a guy who was court Marshalled, stripped of rank, and who died in disgrace three years before it was built. Just sayin. You can believe youll wake up every day to the same world every day all you want, but history has proven it to be a false belief.
I do maintenance to prevent failures on the road. I buy lots of groceries when I'm in town so I dont have to drive there every day. I cut and chop wood when its nice so I have heat when its not. And I contemplate how I would get my baby girl home if the worst case scenario happens. I simply cannot imagine a father who does not think that way. Hope for the best, but prepare for the worst. Even a bird seeks shelter before a storm.
Artvonne well said.
Look at what this country has gone through in it's short life.
Just once I'd like to see a thread remain on topic.
Artvonne asked a very specific question, PERTAINING TO BUSSES. He specificly stipulated he was not interested in facts or opinions on the underlying premises. He just wanted to know about resistance to EMP events.
So now there are comments entirely unrelated to the thread.
So, being the thread is already off topic, I will assuage a few doubts as to the POSSIBILITY, not eventuality, of the event in question.
Aside from natural occurring phenomena, and actual attacks by hostile entities, there are attacks by crazy people.
Such as BUS NUTS!
This might prove interesting:
http://www.busnut.com/bbs/messages/11/68926.html?1325815255 (http://www.busnut.com/bbs/messages/11/68926.html?1325815255)
The end of the thread is relevant.
TOM
What is EMP?
Quote from: Tikvah on January 11, 2012, 05:58:44 AM
What is EMP?
ElectroMagnetic Pulse
BTW, I think your tag line is hilarious. ;D
TOM
Yeah, but he was only addressing us tin foil hat wearers...
Quote from: Tikvah on January 11, 2012, 05:58:44 AM
What is EMP?
Lot to read, but one of the better explanations of what it is, what it could do, and how it could occur.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_pulse (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_pulse)
The issue came into real focus after the novel "One Second After" was published in 2009. The author did a lot of research on the subject and the opinion of most experts who looked at it agree with the premise. There was enough concern about it that FEMA was given funding to prepare for such an event, though any attempt to prepare will be of little use, it would likely cost three times our national debt to build any kind of preparation for it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_Second_After (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_Second_After)
Quote from: artvonne on January 11, 2012, 11:17:53 PM
Quote from: Tikvah on January 11, 2012, 05:58:44 AM
What is EMP?
Lot to read, but one of the better explanations of what it is, what it could do, and how it could occur.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_pulse (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_pulse)
The issue came into real focus after the novel "One Second After" was published in 2009. The author did a lot of research on the subject and the opinion of most experts who looked at it agree with the premise. There was enough concern about it that FEMA was given funding to prepare for such an event, though any attempt to prepare will be of little use, it would likely cost three times our national debt to build any kind of preparation for it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_Second_After (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_Second_After)
Interesting topic Paul. A while back I posted a similar topic (http://www.busconversions.com/bbs/index.php?topic=21894.0 (http://www.busconversions.com/bbs/index.php?topic=21894.0)), but not so bus specific. I have read "One Second After" and ""lights out" and they both paint similar views of the potential challenges of modern society in that situation. I don't understand the science of it all, but I think in the case of a EMP strike as related to the books, I think your batteries would be fine. Where I see potential problems is silenoids and the relays. In "one second after" his mother in laws car functioned fine after the blast, which if the authors "science" was right, suggest that our buses would be fine... (at least the older ones). In "Lights out" the 1985 and older cars were easier to repair due to being carb'd. I think they were mainly concerned with points and condensers... if my memory is right.
Even before I read the doomsday books, I liked the idea of being able to leave from my location and hit the east or west coast in less than 24 hours without stopping for nothing. To have enough fuel to just drive. Right now, I estimate we could get about 700 miles safely without stopping. One day I would like to have a diesel genset and 300 gal fuel capacity. The ability to charge batteries with solar panels and have house batteries that can handle the essentials would be ideal. Then all you have to do is get there (somewhere) and survive.
It's funny the nay sayers of the potential of such things. Folks like yourself will have an edge and the one's that laughed at you will be begging for your help. In general, most of the population is oblivious to just how fragile thier existance is at this moment.
Quote from: RnMAdventures on January 12, 2012, 04:53:50 AM
It's funny the nay sayers of the potential of such things. Folks like yourself will have an edge and the one's that laughed at you will be begging for your help. In general, most of the population is oblivious to just how fragile thier existance is at this moment.
That's probably aimed at me as I probably appear to be one of the ones laughing at this whole discussion. In fact I am trying quite hard not to just dismiss it all out of hand as there are apparently some intelligent people take this stuff seriously.
And yet everyone seems determined not to mention the issue which seems to me central to the whole thing - rather than agreeing with each other that the 'threat is real' and how 'fragile our existence is', should not the real discussion be whether there is any point trying to survive such an event?
I hadn't heard of the 'One Second After' movie but read through the link that Artvonne gave:- if you believe that "
the author's science was right" then presumably you accept the scenario as described in the description of the movie, which says that after one year 80% of the population are dead and the rest are suffering a miserable existence as a result of starvation, disease and violence. Why on earth would anyone want to be in that group?
I'm not trying to change anyone's opinion but am genuinely curious about the logic of planning to survive an apocalyptic event - I guess it's something to do with the conflict between instinct and rationality.
Personally I'm left wondering about how to protect my bus from Smurfs. I saw a movie about them once and now I'm worried that it might all come true
Jeremy
You can control Smurfs with moth balls or dryer sheets.
Tribbles, on the other hand, would be a disaster in a bus. They are asexual and multiply by dividing. Even one tribble can overwhelm a bus in very short order.
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.70disco.com%2Fimages%2Ftribble3.jpg&hash=7bbb8b0007d8e5f5b838de526dbeea08442c479a)
Jeremy~
I dont know your age or how you grew up, or what you grew up around. My Father was a WW2 vet, Aircraft Mechanic USAAF, later worked Civil Service at the Duluth AFB, Retired 1969. He brought me up there a few times, but I had to stay at the Ops shack and not leave the area or cross painted lines on the Cement. AP's with M-16's were everywhere, signs everywhere said "use of deadly force authorised". Gave a young boy a great sense of respect. I was thrilled watching F-4's take off two by two with full afterburners, sometimes more than 2 dozen would leave, two pulling onto the runway for takeoff before the two ahead were off the ground. I never thought about where they were going, I was just a kid. Dads job was basically a valet. Go get em, park em, tie em down. Fuel them up and check them out, put in plugs and walk away. Then go back out and prepare them for flight. Rain or shine, snow or blow.
As I grew up I learned my Uncle had been stationed there in 1959. His job was loading nuclear weapons onto aircraft and arming them, setting up the electronics between the bomb and aircraft, and programming them. Some years later we had the Cuban Missile crisis. The Air Force were always doing drills, scrambling aircraft in mock attacks. This time was different. This time the aircraft were loaded with weapons, even aircraft that were sidelined for mechanical reasons, and everything sat around with the engines running, going nowhere, waiting. He said it was the scariest thing he ever saw, and really thought that was going to be it.
In the 60's a movie was made, a comedy with Peter Sellers called Dr. Strangelove. While it goes to great lengths poking fun at the Military, the basic premise was 100% accurate. We were flying B-52's into USSR airspace with armed nuclear weapons on secret missions. Every day. And Russia was doing the same to us. It was a very dangerous game. That game was played from around 1950 until 1987. Its been said that during that entire period, somewhere in the world a B-52 was inflight refueling every 2 minutes, 25/7/365.
I grew up honestly believing it was only a matter of time before we blew up the planet. Later, When Reagan and Gorby worked things out, we stood down the B-52's and never again have flown those missions. I thought we were safe once and for all. Now the bottle is spinning again, and we dont really know where it will stop. I have great confidence in our Military that they can catch things before they go bang, but they missed by a long shot on 9/11. I pray nothing like an EMP attack will ever happen. And your right, if it does, and if it plays out as many suggest, with most of the people gone after a year, who would care to survive?
Maybe you dont have children. But I have a young girl I adopted and claim as my own. If something like this occured, and if she is off at school, or at a game somewhere, or at some friends house 40 miles away, am I supposed to forget about her because I know this could be that bad and who wants to live? I just couldnt do that. If there is any way on earth I can get her home, I will make it happen. If her and I and my wife are going to die, and I have anything to say about it, we will die together here at home. I refuse to accept that my kid will be left to fend for herself somewhere if there is anyway I can do something to prevent it.
And if were away from home, traveling, and this event takes place, should we just throw up our hands and say kill me now? Or would we rather like to know we can at least get home, and make our stand there? I mean, if we dont get fried, if the only real damage is electronic crap is down, I wanna go home. Fast!
And what if its not as bad as suggested. What if maybe in a few weeks aid starts coming in and power gets restored? Had I just thrown up my hands and allowed the kid to fend for herself, and bad things happen to her, how could I face life then?
That is why I am asking. If its all a joke to you I guess thats your choice. I dont believe its a joke.
Paul, you should consider getting your Ham Radio license if this is a big concern to you. EMP should knock out about all forms of communication. Your cell phone, land line, am/fm will be worthless. Old tube type radios will still be useable for communication. Even if voice communication is poor you still have CW (morse code). You will need a radio that is 12 volt capable and some source of power i.e. battery bank, solar, genny, etc. If this interests you, the test is easy and you do not have to learn morse code.
I have considered getting a radio license and radio and likely will, my Uncle suggested the same thing, tube type stuff and all, but said it still needs to be fully protected. Tube type stuff can be damaged too. But your right, its much more immune. But probably better to listen rather than talk, you know.
Artvonne:
That's a good answer and understand and I respect where you're coming from. Certainly I have a different outlook, resulting from a different background - young (in the context of this board), no children and anti-military.
Debates about 'survival at all costs' are in the zeitgeist here at the moment as a law allowing assisted suicide is almost certainly going to be passed very soon (already defacto, but they're keen to make it official).
I also heard an interesting radio programme just this week about the (bizarrely huge) number of groups who sincerely believe that the 'end is nigh', often with specific dates in mind. Of course most of them are religious nutters of various flavours, but not all of them. Then there are the groups who are actively trying to bring about the end of the world - the best known being Aum Shinrikyo (Tokyo Sarin gas attacks), but apparently there are quite a few others too.
Which is all quite scary, if you like being scared by such things. Personally I choose not to be. After all, as someone once said, life is just nature's way of keeping meat fresh.
Jeremy
Will this EMP come from a flying saucer or a nuclear bomb dropped by a black helicopter??
In either case starting a bus will be a minor problem!!
Gus, they plan on dropping it from a black helicopter 250 miles up in space over Kansas (thats why they use a black helicopter, normal ones can only fly half that high).
If an X class solar flare from our sun should happen to strike earth, anyone on the sunny side would be seriously affected. Apparently it would overload the electrical grid and melt down transformers and other electrical components. Estimates are that it could take years to repair in societies that depend on electrical power distribution.
So do I live in constant fear that the next sun rise will bring destruction, no. But, it might be nice to be able to drive to a warm, functioning location for the duration.
If you don't want to come, can I have your diesel. ;D
jm
Even if one has a functioning vehicle, how are you going to get fuel once you get low? I guess you could buy, beg, or steal some from someone who has an overhead gravity feed tank.
Another problem will be getting around all of the dead and abandoned cars, trucks, buses and motorhomes that are blocking the roads. >:(
NASA has said there is a 100% chance of a major solar flare event in the next 11 years..... something to do with the solar activity cycles on the sun. Their predictions are that there will be significant disruptions to the electrical grid and/or electronics in general. There was an event similar to this in the early 1900s (I think?) that fried most of the electrical grid. It was not a big deal then because not many folks had electricity anyway. The damage would depend on how big the event, time of year, what part of the earth was facing the sun, etc.
This information coupled with the fact that the largest transformers used in the grid are no longer made in the USA and have a 2+ year lead time is enough to concern me. Also, I, like lots of other people, don't believe that our government, no matter who is running it at the time, is always honest with what they know. Some of the local information says those of us involved in public safety should not alarm the public because it may cause panic.
Actually, panic is one of the things I am very good at! ;D Also, I prefer to panic at my convenience and not when someone else says it's okay! ;D
I'm not sure such an event would turn the US into a barren wasteland populated by wild hordes of biker-zombies intent on rapine & pillaging, BUT I do think we could see some localized disruptions in services.
Should any of this happen, I would like to have the option to go visit my relatives in another unaffected region.......
Or maybe BK in TN... I always liked TN..... :)
Of maybe Clifford..... I need the Jakes fixed anyhow! ;D ;D
TOM
I don't have to do a thing to prepare.
I'm just going to take yours.
But, I won't be alone, my friends will be with me.
Hope you're prepared to defend yourself, and your stuff, from all 4 directions, at the same time.
Some of my friends will be a little simple, and hungry.
They know what the costs of failing are.
We won't be failing, however, because you are too civilized to do what needs to be done.
Sadly, you will have to violate the deepest of your values in order to survive.
Unfortunately, even if you change your mind as conditions deteriorate, the hardware and training necessary have been left out of the equation.
And then, once forced into it, what man will be able to look at himself in the mirror again, now that he has joined the very animals he professed to abhor, and in full sight and participation of his loved ones?
And, stand before your God after that?
You've already told us. Who else in your neighbourhood knows what emergency preparedness you have?
oh dear...
This is not a game to be entered lightly.
happy coaching!
buswarrior
Just think how far some of us with old buses with 140 to 200 gal. of fuel can go to gather for protection.
I might not make it to Clifford's but can make it to BK's.
Might be better if we met in the App. mnts. I hear that they are some hidden Militia operating in them any way.
uncle Ned
PS they will have plenty of spring water to drink. I don't think lost of electric will bother the making of it.
What if the EMP is part of a series of disasters? A GRB could also happen at any time. Is there anything we can do to protect a bus from a GRB and an EMP at the same time? If, at the same time, we were to have an LAI I am not sure what the best way to cope is. It happened before and no doubt will happen again; ask a dinosaur. I also once read a story about it raining for 40 days and nights straight. Would I be better off with air or electric wipers?
I would seem to me that these types of events would give lots of people the opportunity to go to Heaven. That's what we all want, right? Do buses break down in Heaven or are they all slick, new, and eternally under warranty? Will I need propane in Heaven or should I go all electric? We can't conceive of a Heaven without buses, could we?
think u may have enough propane for eternity ;D
Quote from: oldmansax on January 13, 2012, 06:26:34 AM
NASA has said there is a 100% chance of a major solar flare event in the next 11 years..... something to do with the solar activity cycles on the sun. Their predictions are that there will be significant disruptions to the electrical grid and/or electronics in general. There was an event similar to this in the early 1900s (I think?) that fried most of the electrical grid. It was not a big deal then because not many folks had electricity anyway. The damage would depend on how big the event, time of year, what part of the earth was facing the sun, etc.
This information coupled with the fact that the largest transformers used in the grid are no longer made in the USA and have a 2+ year lead time is enough to concern me. Also, I, like lots of other people, don't believe that our government, no matter who is running it at the time, is always honest with what they know. Some of the local information says those of us involved in public safety should not alarm the public because it may cause panic.
Actually, panic is one of the things I am very good at! ;D Also, I prefer to panic at my convenience and not when someone else says it's okay! ;D
I'm not sure such an event would turn the US into a barren wasteland populated by wild hordes of biker-zombies intent on rapine & pillaging, BUT I do think we could see some localized disruptions in services.
Should any of this happen, I would like to have the option to go visit my relatives in another unaffected region.......
Or maybe BK in TN... I always liked TN..... :)
Of maybe Clifford..... I need the Jakes fixed anyhow! ;D ;D
TOM
Tom the 1900s event you mentioned may have been the 1859 event but never the less...
The last solar maximum was in 2000. The next solar maximum is currently predicted to occur in February 2013 and to be one of the weakest cycles since 1928.
The unreliability of solar maxima predictions is demonstrated in that NASA had previously predicted the solar maximum for 2010/2011 and possibly to occur as late as 2012. Previously, on March 10, 2006, NASA researchers had announced that the next solar maximum would be the strongest since the historic maximum in 1859 in which the northern lights could be seen as far south as Rome, approximately 42° north of the equator, by 2011, this appeared to be incorrect. In fact, the solar maximum will be a fairly weak one.
Tom. You are correct about the transformers. The event your talking about occurred over sept 1-2 1859. It was a CME. The nuke thing over Kansas is postulated to create an EMP many, many times more powerful. The ones postulating this are nuclear physicists, the kind of people who knew how to build the bomb in 1945, and who predicted its detonation would create an EMP. Of which in both cases they were proven accurate. The people who believe those guys dont have a clue what they are talking about are simply foolish.
Lee. I dont believe anyone will ever be able to predict what the Sun is or is not going to do at such and such period in anyones lifetime. We cant even give good weather predictions from down here on Earth. NASA still is unable to admit gravitational pull of the planets has any bearing on sunspots, or that the moon and planets have any effect on earthquakes.
Belfert. Your not going to get fuel unless you can pump some out of another vehicle or gas station with your own equipment. I would suggest pumping BW's tank empty first. Just sayin. But dont you have an ECM controlled engine and transmission? You wont have to worry about fuel, it wont go anywhere with a blown computer.
Ed. I think it would be wise to stay to back roads, stay away from cities and towns, and dont stop for anything or anybody. Be prepared to push cars out of your path, etc.. But IIRC, dont you have a computer controlled transmission too? Your not going anywhere either.
Uncle Ned. Might be wise not to gather. If your the only guy with a Bus that runs you will be a target. Im preparing my home to live in. The Bus questions are only to allow me to help make getting home possible.
Don't know about a bus, but this thread sure seems to be EMP proof. ;D
Quote from: buswarrior on January 13, 2012, 06:46:25 AM
I don't have to do a thing to prepare.
I'm just going to take yours.
And then, once forced into it, what man will be able to look at himself in the mirror again, now that he has joined the very animals he professed to abhor, and in full sight and participation of his loved ones?
And, stand before your God after that?
You've already told us. Who else in your neighbourhood knows what emergency preparedness you have?
happy coaching!
buswarrior
I am not an animal, nor do I abhor them. I am prepared to act if need be and I will protect if need be. I have no real compassion for a thief, and I will not fear God over the decision the thief made to enter my domain to harm me or the people I'm sworn to protect. I may not be able to take all four guys, but I can take a few of them out before they get me, they will have to decide if its worth it. I'm not too concerned about the people living around me. I'm more concerned about the people in town or being somewhere else and trying to get home.
I'm happy that so many people have a lot of spare time on their hands!!
1. If your piece of electronic equipment is deenergized when the pulse hits, will it survive? ie if I had a spare solar controller and inverter squirreled away, could I just replace the dead one?
2. What does it do to your battery bank?
3. What does it do to your starter and other electric motors? Do they have to be running to suffer damage, or are they not affected?
I couldn't find satisfactory answers in my admittedly brief searches.
Nope, no computer on my tranny. ;D I think that the only way anybody will get around is by horse or bicycle.
Quote from: buswarrior on January 13, 2012, 06:46:25 AM
I don't have to do a thing to prepare.
I'm just going to take yours.
But, I won't be alone, my friends will be with me.
Hope you're prepared to defend yourself, and your stuff, from all 4 directions, at the same time.
Some of my friends will be a little simple, and hungry.
They know what the costs of failing are.
We won't be failing, however, because you are too civilized to do what needs to be done.
Sadly, you will have to violate the deepest of your values in order to survive.
Unfortunately, even if you change your mind as conditions deteriorate, the hardware and training necessary have been left out of the equation.
And then, once forced into it, what man will be able to look at himself in the mirror again, now that he has joined the very animals he professed to abhor, and in full sight and participation of his loved ones?
And, stand before your God after that?
You've already told us. Who else in your neighbourhood knows what emergency preparedness you have?
oh dear...
This is not a game to be entered lightly.
happy coaching!
buswarrior
I can't answer most of that without violating OPSEC further than I like.
A few thoughts, though.
Those who decide to take things by force need to be prepared to take casualties.
There are some places that cannot effectively be attacked on all four sides. Have you ever been to Afghanistan?
You only know where you think I am, not where I am or where I may be.
Killing is not new to some.
Hardware & equipment is what this thread was started about.
I will face God when the time comes but I think killing thieves & murderers will be way down on the list of things to be dealt with.
I don't live in a neighborhood.
TOM
Quote from: artvonne on January 13, 2012, 01:26:41 PM
Belfert. Your not going to get fuel unless you can pump some out of another vehicle or gas station with your own equipment. I would suggest pumping BW's tank empty first. Just sayin. But dont you have an ECM controlled engine and transmission? You wont have to worry about fuel, it wont go anywhere with a blown computer.
Yes, I know that none of my vehicles except my bicycle would run in the case of an EMP. Unless I am out in the boonies should an EMP occur a running vehicle would probably be the least of my concerns at that point.
My comments about obtaining fuel were directed at those who have vehicles that would still be running after an EMP.
Quote from: Jeremy on January 12, 2012, 06:35:17 AM
That's probably aimed at me as I probably appear to be one of the ones laughing at this whole discussion. In fact I am trying quite hard not to just dismiss it all out of hand as there are apparently some intelligent people take this stuff seriously.
And yet everyone seems determined not to mention the issue which seems to me central to the whole thing - rather than agreeing with each other that the 'threat is real' and how 'fragile our existence is', should not the real discussion be whether there is any point trying to survive such an event?
I hadn't heard of the 'One Second After' movie but read through the link that Artvonne gave:- if you believe that "the author's science was right" then presumably you accept the scenario as described in the description of the movie, which says that after one year 80% of the population are dead and the rest are suffering a miserable existence as a result of starvation, disease and violence. Why on earth would anyone want to be in that group?
I'm not trying to change anyone's opinion but am genuinely curious about the logic of planning to survive an apocalyptic event - I guess it's something to do with the conflict between instinct and rationality.
Personally I'm left wondering about how to protect my bus from Smurfs. I saw a movie about them once and now I'm worried that it might all come true
No, I wasn't pointing my comments at any ONE person, but more so from conversations I have had about the topic. While I realize just how bad it would get I still am not prepared. I think FORSTCHEN was on the extreme side of the outcome, but I think that is based on FEMA's estimation. There are so many variables that impact the potential outcome it's really hard to know, so I think looking at the situation from an extremly bad outcome is the better way to approach the topic.
The innocence a sheltered life brings can be a wonderful thing. Not knowing the dark side of mankind or nature in general is an illusion we all live with until something happens in our life that enlightens as to what it is really all about. I can remember years ago sitting in church a lady a few years older than me stood up and had a prayer request. She had bounced a check and it had rocked her world. That event was very significant to her and it brought her to tears. She didn't realize just how blessed she was.
Why "on earth" would you want to survive? Well fortunately for you, your ancestors didn't have to ask that question. I don't want to hijack this thread with a thorough reply to that statement, but in the words or Winston Churchill, "Never give in--never, never, never, never, in nothing great or small, large or petty, never give in except to convictions of honour and good sense. Never yield to force; never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy."
Quote from: RnMAdventures on January 14, 2012, 04:30:12 AM
...but in the words or Winston Churchill, "Never give in--never, never, never, never, in nothing great or small, large or petty, never give in except to convictions of honour and good sense. Never yield to force; never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy."
Amazingly enough I actually quoted that quote during assembly at my school once; when we were prefects in the sixth form (ie, aged 18 and supposedly role-models for the younger pupils) each day one of us had to say something inspiring to the whole school during morning assembly. On one occasion I used that Winston Churchill quote (which I believe he made to the boys of his own school, on a return visit years later), and on a different occasion I quoted words said in a voice-over in an obscure Frankie Goes to Hollywood song ("In the paroxysms of intoxication the artistic power of all nature is revealed to the highest gratification of the primordial unity...."). That one goes on for some time, and I remember every word. When I eventually sat down the headmaster gave me a very strange look.
Jeremy
Maybe, Just maybe, this EMP disaster prediction is as valid as the Y2K disaster that most folks buried their head in the sand and poof, nothing ;D
So I know there are much brighter word smiths out there, so I ask is this another Y2K type hoax ?
Cheers & Beers
Ultimately, if you can just be prepared for an all out thermonuclear war and its aftermath, I think that you will be as prepared as you can be for anything else, including an EMP or EPA. Doesn't that make the whole thing much simpler? It's sort of like fueling up; you fill the tank even if you only intend to travel half a tank's worth.
Good luck to you folks who think there is any defense against these things and that God will come to your rescue!!
Quote from: wg4t50 on January 14, 2012, 08:49:10 AM
so I ask is this another Y2K type hoax ?
Cheers & Beers
http://www.empcommission.org/ (http://www.empcommission.org/)
That report was published in 2004, and AFAIK nothing has been done with its recommendations. In fact since 2004 the Countries infrastructure has become more dependent on electronics.
The Amish will probably not even notice an EMP. Maybe I should grow a funny beard and change my name to Yoder. How many horses does it take to pull a bus?
John
Quote from: Iceni John on January 14, 2012, 05:45:04 PM
How many horses does it take to pull a bus?
John
You'll do better with oxen. ;)
Hey all! I'm back and I see a topic I enjoy! (Did anybody miss me? lol ;D) I think I would be okay, my bus is old enough that the only things that wouldn't work would not hinder me from getting to home. Then if I could turn my 41' John Deere into a toad I'd even have a way to get around (Uses a mag for spark so I think it would work?). Also I would be armed to the teeth, and if stuff really hit the van I have enough old equipment to build a walled city lol.
Mike
Well... dont know but one sits beside the girl...
Quote from: wg4t50 on January 14, 2012, 08:49:10 AM
Maybe, Just maybe, this EMP disaster prediction is as valid as the Y2K disaster that most folks buried their head in the sand and poof, nothing ;D
So I know there are much brighter word smiths out there, so I ask is this another Y2K type hoax ?
Cheers & Beers
My mother in law at the time was into the Y2K rave as well. Kinda kooky, but her chickens were putting out a few dozen eggs a day. That was a strange media hyped event. Anyone that really understood what the deal was, was not that concerned about a global meltdown. The EMP thing is much different. We know it exist and we have seen what it can do, so the test results are there. All it takes is a little solar flare to make it happen. Modern society is a slave to technology. If the ability to power our cities and get food from the growers to the consumers ended for a time, we would suffer tremendously. Most major cities have about 3 to 4 days of food supply. Cut the food and water off for a month and see what happens.
Quote from: gus on January 14, 2012, 02:09:05 PM
Good luck to you folks who think there is any defense against these things and that God will come to your rescue!!
Jesus loves you Gus! (Even though you don't believe and you don't want anyone else to believe or have faith)
As far as a defense against these things. You are about 95% right, as a country we are not prepared to handle this type event. However, as individuals if we increase our ability to live in those conditions, we have a better chance to survive it. It's not full proof, but it is something.
Quote from: Iceni John on January 14, 2012, 05:45:04 PM
The Amish will probably not even notice an EMP. Maybe I should grow a funny beard and change my name to Yoder. How many horses does it take to pull a bus?
John
Hey, My wife was a Yoder from Ohio ;). I'll ask my father in law and see how many horse's it would take.
Quote from: Jeremy on January 14, 2012, 05:35:57 AM
Quote from: RnMAdventures on January 14, 2012, 04:30:12 AM
...but in the words or Winston Churchill, “Never give in--never, never, never, never, in nothing great or small, large or petty, never give in except to convictions of honour and good sense. Never yield to force; never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy.”
Amazingly enough I actually quoted that quote during assembly at my school once; when we were prefects in the sixth form (ie, aged 18 and supposedly role-models for the younger pupils) each day one of us had to say something inspiring to the whole school during morning assembly. On one occasion I used that Winston Churchill quote (which I believe he made to the boys of his own school, on a return visit years later), and on a different occasion I quoted words said in a voice-over in an obscure Frankie Goes to Hollywood song ("In the paroxysms of intoxication the artistic power of all nature is revealed to the highest gratification of the primordial unity...."). That one goes on for some time, and I remember every word. When I eventually sat down the headmaster gave me a very strange look.
Yeah that whole primordial unity stuff. I am not much of a history buff. My oldest son has been educating me on history since he was about 12. I see you are from the UK, your verbage makes more sense to me now. When I first heard the speech I quoted it gave me the chills.
The girl's name is Nell of course...
Amish will see EMP strike as the rest of the country getting back to normal..
Think i will make my toad a buggy...
So anyway, I was just looking for some good ideas how to harden one of these old girls. My 50DN is dead (AFAIK, haven't tested it), and rather than put in another one I'm thinking about a big DC generator to replace it and run an old school mechanical voltage regulator. That would be about as bullet proof as I could think of. Next are the various appliances...
Was your 50DN 12v or 24v, gear or belt driven?
Belt driven
There is a lot of info on the net about this. Build a Faraday cage around it... buy the emp sensative components and store them in a Faraday cage. Over the long term you are better off setting yourself up with sustainable energy, not fuel driven.
While I do believe the possibility of an attack on our country is likely imminent, and that a powerful EMP is very likely, I try to keep a clear head about it. I dont believe the entire country will erupt into looting and killing and everyone will be dead in a year. In fact it may be exactly what our country needs to get people to pull their heads out of their rear end.
No matter how powerful of an EMP we were struck with, there will be vehicles that run. People will help each other. We will get fuel and generators and food into people who need them, get people into emergency shelters, etc.. Looters and criminal types may have some fun for a while but people will get tired of that real fast and put a stop to it.
All I'm interested in is making preparations for the short term, such as having vehicles that will run, a generator that will continue to function, etc.. Again, I think anything with a condenser, or diode may be just as fragile as transistorized components. If they still work afterwards, great, but if they don't and your dead in the water then what?? IOW, best to prepare for the worst case scenario rather than assuming certain things "might" survive.
A Faraday cage may only work if its underground as well. So if we cannot protect spare parts we need equipment that either wont go down, or that is able to be easily repaired mechanically.
I have some second hand IBC Totes that were used to transport liquid. They have a metal cage with a plastic tank. I am wondering if such a container would work as a faraday cage. My thought is to remove the top of the tank, place items inside and cover the top with wire mesh.
Any thoughts?
jok
you would have to remove the pallet on the bottom if yours came that way and cover the entire thing with the wire mesh.. i have lots of those containers also, because the chemical company is making me buy the all plastic ones that have a deposit of $500... and now that i have some of those, they don't want to give the depost back.... want exchange only...
From what I read, the size of the holes matter. So you might want to wrap the whole thing in copper mesh screen. Then hook it to a grounding rod ran deep.
I can't believe this nonsense is still going on??
Are people really this gullible?
Gullible about what, exactly? Let me ask you, do you have any surge protectors in your home? Do you have a UPS on your computer? If so, why? Why would you have those things, are you concerned a Lightning strike could harm your electronics? Why?
I am 53 years old, and only once did lightning do any damage, and insurance covered it. It did however, destroy everything on the property that had transistorized electronics.
I would ask, if we understand what happened Sept 1, 1859, why wouldnt that be of any concern today? I would ask, if we know various countries have built weapons that could exceed the energy of what occured in 1859 by 5 to 10 times, why disregard it? If I lived across the road from you, and put a Civil War Cannon in my yard and aimed it at your front door, wouldn't that bother you just a little bit? Well, we have rockets aimed at us from far away Gus. They are just sitting there waiting for someone to let em fly. Only they arent built to nuke our cites.
If you want to throw your hands up with that kind of looming threat, go ahead. I dont plan on throwing in the towel quite so fast.
Quote from: artvonne on January 16, 2012, 08:47:41 PM
Well, we have rockets aimed at us from far away Gus. They are just sitting there waiting for someone to let em fly. Only they arent built to nuke our cites.
If you have special knowledge about EMP weapons aimed at the USA you really ought to share it. But if it's just speculation based on internet survivalist chatter then it's reasonable for Gus to think you're gullible.
Your previous post stated that you believe an EMP attack is 'imminent' and 'very likely'. Other people are allowed to believe the opposite. Personally I believe buying a lottery ticket would be a much wiser investment than spending money on EMP-proofing a bus
Jeremy
Paul, you (and I)are wasting your (our) time.
When ever an argument is presented by either side, the opposing side presents opposing arguments.
Some are going to believe & take precautions, some are not going to believe & have trouble if an event happens.
That is why I have said previously we would all be better served if we answer questions on these boards as posed rather than trying to change the authors mind about what he (or she) wants to do.
I just got into a spirited discussion over on BNO about using webcams as surveillance cameras so this is not the only board that operates this way.
Take what answers to the original question that are helpful, ignore the other comments.
I will try to take my own advice.
TOM
Looks like the simple truth and answer to all the above concern and hype is to simply buy an old coal mine and hide your coach and electronics beneath many hundreds of feet of rock and dirt. Then you can relax and worry the mine does not colapse on you.
Or the wife doesn't yell too loud... ;D
Whether the concern is valid or not, it does really seem to be way off topic. Merely using the term "bus" does not change that. Can I couch a religious discussion in a topic on how to prepare my bus for the return of Jesus or Mohamed? Maybe an EMP is somehow related to those also.
Quote from: Lin on January 17, 2012, 10:16:06 AM
Whether the concern is valid or not, it does really seem to be way off topic. Merely using the term "bus" does not change that. Can I couch a religious discussion in a topic on how to prepare my bus for the return of Jesus or Mohamed? Maybe an EMP is somehow related to those also.
How to EMP proof his bus is a valid topic. The topic is interesting and anyone interested in learning can benefit from it.
If you or anyone else don't like it, why try to disrupt it? Just don't read it. This is not contraversial at all. EMP is real, that is a scientific fact.
I edited this post.
Quote from: oldmansax on January 17, 2012, 05:26:49 AM
Paul, you (and I)are wasting your (our) time.
That is why I have said previously we would all be better served if we answer questions on these boards as posed rather than trying to change the authors mind about what he (or she) wants to do.
I just got into a spirited discussion over on BNO about using webcams as surveillance cameras so this is not the only board that operates this way.
Take what answers to the original question that are helpful, ignore the other comments.
I will try to take my own advice.
TOM
Tom, very well said. I should have never started the thread.
Quote from: RnMAdventures on January 17, 2012, 10:39:50 AM
How to EMP proof his bus is valid. Gus and company's nonsense is not. The same individuals try to disrupt many threads. The topic is interesting and anyone interested in learning can benefit from it.
I thought it was a valid question, but I was wrong.
I also thought it was a valid question. My interest was in protection in case of a solar flare.
I still wonder if the bays would be protected since my Prevost is said to have lead under the floors.
jok
Paul/Tom,
Don't mind the smoke the others blow. They really don't mean harm.
I enjoyed skimming the thread. Good info/thoughts here. Our bus is new enough, we are going to be done for, but oh well. If the others wouldn't have derailed the topic, it is very much on topic, IMHO.
FWIW
John
I think its a valid question, but I don't think one can in a practical sense emp proof the whole thing, possibly parts of it while choosing the electrical equipment to shield carefully. But, as posted earlier, if there was emp occurance, there would be many other problems besides my bus.
Right on cue.
http://cosmiclog.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/01/19/10192639-solar-blast-heading-our-way (http://cosmiclog.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/01/19/10192639-solar-blast-heading-our-way)
Quote from: chev49 on January 17, 2012, 08:54:20 PM
But, as posted earlier, if there was emp occurance, there would be many other problems besides my bus.
I cant prepare for every problem or contingency and Im not going to try. But if we are far from home and something like this occurred, there are only two options. Make your stand where your at, or try to get home and deal with it there. I want to try to get home. If I come off sounding like a fruit cake because of my desire, so be it.
If my daughter is at school, or a football game, and this occurred, I want her home. ASAP. There is no other option I will accept, I will walk if I have to. I'll borrow a horse, I'll ride a bike. But a running vehicle would be light years faster. If I sound crazy for wanting that, so be it.
The CME event that happened in 1859 would likely fry the entire North American power grid, and more than likely destroy every transistor, diode and capacitor in the North America, if not most of the world, that wasnt buried underground and protected inside a faraday cage. People can roll their eyes and pretend its all fantasy all they want, but if that kind of event ever comes around again, at least with our current level of preparedness, its going to be lights out.
Quote from: artvonne on January 19, 2012, 10:57:33 PM
Quote from: chev49 on January 17, 2012, 08:54:20 PM
But, as posted earlier, if there was emp occurance, there would be many other problems besides my bus.
I cant prepare for every problem or contingency and Im not going to try. But if we are far from home and something like this occurred, there are only two options. Make your stand where your at, or try to get home and deal with it there. I want to try to get home. If I come off sounding like a fruit cake because of my desire, so be it.
If my daughter is at school, or a football game, and this occurred, I want her home. ASAP. There is no other option I will accept, I will walk if I have to. I'll borrow a horse, I'll ride a bike. But a running vehicle would be light years faster. If I sound crazy for wanting that, so be it.
The CME event that happened in 1859 would likely fry the entire North American power grid, and more than likely destroy every transistor, diode and capacitor in the North America, if not most of the world, that wasnt buried underground and protected inside a faraday cage. People can roll their eyes and pretend its all fantasy all they want, but if that kind of event ever comes around again, at least with our current level of preparedness, its going to be lights out.
I don't have a lot of time to do the research, but I haven't found anything that say's the electronics that are sheilded could not survive something the magnitude of the Carrington event. What have you read to give you that impression? In the case of your bus, what makes sense according to what I read, is to protect the key sensative electronic conponents in a box built for that purpose. The faraday does not seem to be the answer.
Right off the DOH Office of Radiation Protection:
What Can Be Done to Protect Electronics
There are two basic ways to protect or harden items against EMP effects. The first method is metallic shielding. Shields are made of a continuous piece of metal such as steel or copper. A metal enclosure generally does not fully shield the interior because of the small holes that are likely to exist. Therefore, this type of shielding often contains additional elements to create the barrier. Commonly, only a fraction of a millimeter of a metal is needed to supply adequate protection. This shield must completely surround the item to be hardened.
The second method, tailored hardening, is a more cost-effective way of hardening. In this method, only the most vulnerable elements and circuits are redesigned to be more rugged. The more rugged elements will be able to withstand much higher currents. This method has shown unpredictable failures in testing, though it is thought it may be useful to make existing systems less vulnerable. There is a lot that is not clear to me on it. Would my alternator survive? Relays have a metal barrier around them, but are probably sensative to it. What about the skinner valve? It is electronic. When you consider a bus in general, would the steel/aluminum surrounding everything offer a level of protection?
It has been a while since I read the book, can you remember what kind of car his mother in law had that was uneffected by the EMP? For some reason I was thinking it was a 55 olds. I assume he based that biased on the science. If that is the case, I am not sure the older buses would be effected at all.
Anyone that would think you are a fruit cake because of this topic just don't understand the science. Looking at what happened in New Orleans during Katrina. A person would have to be a fruit cake NOT to see the danger ahead if the U.S. power grid was taken out. We live close to a refugee corridor, which is the last place we want to be. So for us, our bus is a way of escape in the CME event.
well, essentially you are talking about any car that has a points system. Course, until mid sixties they had a generator instead of an alternator. And then, there is the Model T Fords that didn't even have point system as the later cars had.. (got some ford coils around here somewhere)
Maybe we need Model T motorhomes... ;D
OK, one more simple (I hope!) question:
If all it takes is for electronics to be shielded by a continuous piece of metal (per the DOH's first paragraph), the DDEC II in my bus is inside what appears to be a substantial steel box, sitting on top of the engine. Would this be enough, or not?
John
Sorry John, all the wires leading to and from the DDEC II box would have to be shielded as well as whatever they are connected to.
The EMP commission used a maximum of 25KV per meter as their premise for analyzing the impact. At that level they determined we would lose the power grid for a year or more, but most vehicles would survive, even newer computerized vehicles. The National Guard will eventually show up with generators and food and we'll begin to dig out. But my understanding is that 25KV is near the threshold between our vehicles surviving, and destroying all electronics. If a large weapon were detonated over Kansas shortly after we were struck by a strong solar flare, when the atmosphere is already highly charged, what would be the effect? What if instead of 25KV per meter, it generated 50KV per meter, or higher. Throw up your hands and bury your head in the sand? That is the level of threat some people consider possible, and some consider likely. Something many times more powerful than the Carrington event.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_storm_of_1859
That is why I started this thread with the assumption that all transistors, diodes, condensers (computers) are destroyed, no matter how well shielded. I wanted to start from that premise. That any of those components on your vehicle are destroyed, as well as any spares you carry, no matter how well protected, and there are none available anywhere within a 1000 miles in any direction. Your phones are destroyed, radios are destroyed, etc..
To make it more difficult, lets assume light duty electric coils (ignition coils, solenoids, relays...) are also destroyed. So my starter solenoid is gone, I will have to jump the contacts to start the engine, I can do that. Skinner valve? Can it be manually controlled? Mechanical voltage regulator, I may be able to fix it, or can force it closed if need be to make it charge. And with a large battery bank I could run a long ways without charging. Can your DDEC engine be converted to mechanical? My generator is diesel, I can jump the starter, but will it produce AC power? What could be done to get it working?
I guess it would kind of be that "Das Boot" moment. Can we get it back up and moving.
Quote from: artvonne on January 20, 2012, 12:13:49 PM
The EMP commission used a maximum of 25KV per meter as their premise for analyzing the impact. At that level they determined we would lose the power grid for a year or more, but most vehicles would survive, even newer computerized vehicles. The National Guard will eventually show up with generators and food and we'll begin to dig out. But my understanding is that 25KV is near the threshold between our vehicles surviving, and destroying all electronics. If a large weapon were detonated over Kansas shortly after we were struck by a strong solar flare, when the atmosphere is already highly charged, what would be the effect? What if instead of 25KV per meter, it generated 50KV per meter, or higher. Throw up your hands and bury your head in the sand? That is the level of threat some people consider possible, and some consider likely. Something many times more powerful than the Carrington event.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_storm_of_1859
That is why I started this thread with the assumption that all transistors, diodes, condensers (computers) are destroyed, no matter how well shielded. I wanted to start from that premise. That any of those components on your vehicle are destroyed, as well as any spares you carry, no matter how well protected, and there are none available anywhere within a 1000 miles in any direction. Your phones are destroyed, radios are destroyed, etc..
To make it more difficult, lets assume light duty electric coils (ignition coils, solenoids, relays...) are also destroyed. So my starter solenoid is gone, I will have to jump the contacts to start the engine, I can do that. Skinner valve? Can it be manually controlled? Mechanical voltage regulator, I may be able to fix it, or can force it closed if need be to make it charge. And with a large battery bank I could run a long ways without charging. Can your DDEC engine be converted to mechanical? My generator is diesel, I can jump the starter, but will it produce AC power? What could be done to get it working?
I guess it would kind of be that "Das Boot" moment. Can we get it back up and moving.
I see where you are at now.
The skinner valve is just a TSO solenoid valve. You could just put a ball valve in it's place I would assume. However, I would be creative with a mechanical device so that you could shut the ball valve if you needed to in a pinch. In the scenario you described my assumption would that your genset would not work. An armature has a stuff going on in there, but I don't know enough about it to know if it could handle 50KV per meter.
If the bus had a manual transmission and you could push start it (or always park on a hill), an old bus with a detroit diesel... and it does not have spring breaks.... then I think the bus could get going fairly easy.
Leaving aside for a moment what I believe to be the nonsense of actually doing any of this work, from a purely theoretical standpoint there are unfortunately no definitive answers to any of these 'Will this device survive?" type questions. If an electro-magnetic pulse is strong enough it will destroy any conductor, regardless of what it is or what it does.
If a magnetic field is created around a conductor, and then removed, a current will flow. The strength of that current depends upon the strength of the field, the speed with which it is removed, and the type of conductor - a long coil of wire (such as in a motor or alternator or solenoid) will obviously generate a much stronger current than a short length of steel bar for example.
Then there is the sensitivity of the device to that current - a fairly small current will damage a small transistor or diode for example, but it would take a big current to create a spark powerful enough to melt the points in an old-style distributor. And if the current is big enough the frame of the bus itself would heat up and melt.
So let's bear in mind that we're discussing lengths of string here, and until the mythical 'it' happens there is no way of really knowing the answers to any of these questions. And don't forget that we still need to figure out how to protect ourselves from those Smurfs.
Jeremy
Quote from: Jeremy on January 20, 2012, 06:05:02 PM
So let's bear in mind that we're discussing lengths of string here, and until the mythical 'it' happens there is no way of really knowing the answers to any of these questions. And don't forget that we still need to figure out how to protect ourselves from those Smurfs.
Well the experts at yahoo answers say this:
"An EMP will cause a surge in current in any electrical circuit. Usually, it's more than the circuit can handle, and it burns out. The human nervous system does use electrical impulses, but it doesn't operate in the same sense as a computer does. It's a common misunderstanding, seeing as nerves are often portrayed as wires.
Instead of carrying current like a wire, nerves operate more like a row of falling dominoes. Along the length of the nerve, there's an artificial imbalance of ions (sodium and potassium) that's kept out of balance by tiny pumps within the nerve. This imbalance in ions results in an imbalance in charge, which means there is a voltage difference between the inside and the outside of the nerve. Once the nerve fires, tiny channels in the surface open up, the ions rush through, and the charge flips. This flip causes the next channels down the line to open, and so on and so forth, and the signal is carried down the length of the nerve. Once it reaches the end, it causes the neuron to release chemicals that conduct the signal to the next neuron down the line.
Since neurons carry their signals chemically, rather than via current, (and nerves aren't set up like electrical circuits) an EMP wouldn't have any effect. BUT, since electrical charge is involved in conducting the signals, the nervous system is susceptible to electric shocks. The same is true of muscles, which, electrically, are very similar to nerves. A shock can trigger the ion channels on the surface of the cells to open up, making the nerve fire (or the muscle contract)."http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20081204112159AAI09mV (http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20081204112159AAI09mV)
I read somewhere else that the EMP could effect your brain if the nuke was detonated a few centimeters from your brain, but that is pure speculation. ::)
Interesting thread. "EMP proof bus" = diesel engine (MUI) with spring starter, hydraulic transmission, air brakes, air suspension, air wipers - "beta lights" for exterior lighting (zero electricity).
Post EMP bus = above + 2" steel armor, Gel-filled self sealing tires, 8" laminated bulletproof glass, an automatic fire suression system, 3" steel plow fitting on front, complete steel plating on undercarridge, 500Gal+ fuel tank (self-sealing, foam core tank). Helmets for all inside, probably a bunch of kevlar/aramid stuff, food and water for a month, four Dillon Aeros on the outside corners operable by remote (with periscope view-finders), lot of ammo, fully auto rifles inside, with side-arms as back-up in close range. Some knives and blunt objects for CQB/futility, little zip-lock baggies for poop - and a lot of trust in the people you put inside this thing... ('cause we've probably all seen that movie wher on of 'em goes ape $**+ and starts shooting everybody else) and lest we forget what happens when you go through the trouble of building this beast - a visit from the ATF, FBI, DHS (how many more acronyms to throw out...) all at the same time, and with tanks ::)
Of course, I think the potential effects are a bit over blown. Yes, it's likely that the power grid will go down - mostly because it is a country sized antenna system. That doesn't mean that all of your stuff will die. Testing has shown that there are "failures" which are not catastrophic, but rather temporary. For instance, if EMP stops a missle from firing when told to - that is a "failure", but if you can turn off the launcer and turn it back on an fire it, it was only temporary and did not destroy the device. I equate this to running Microsoft Windows. Anyone here ever seen or heard of the Blue Screen of Death? Usually it is caused by a memory error from a single bit being off and an unexpected chunk of data pop out that the OS didn't know how to deal with. What is the most common reply from a techie when they hear this? "Did you try turning it off and back on again?" - this puts the system back into a "known state", so it runs fine. Most people my find that after EMP, they get weird behavior occasionally, not total destruction.
I think that if EMP (Military calls it HEMP - High-altitude ElectroMagnetic Pulse) were to do a bit of damage, modern conveniences would be shut down yes - so you won't be able to watch House on your nice 65" LCD HDTV, but that doesn't mean that all police radios will stop working, properly built C4I infrasructure will die (Command, Control, Communications, Computers, and Intelligence), or other emergency systems will not be in place. My dad was a safety officer for the county we live in (SF Bay Area), I have seen first hand that many of the best-practices set forth in Military HEMP and Sheilding/Grounding/Bonding manuals are already in place and "real emergency systems" are not overly reliant on computers (i.e. there are still manual over-rides). I do conceive a heavy impact in the private sector, since they are not as well thought out, and spend more of their budget making systems that make more money rather than spending money protecting their money-making systems - some have decent continuity of business plans (big business catch phrase), but they rely on a good portion of global infrastructure being up and running somewhere. Kind of the "why build it right if I can get another one somewhere else?" mentality. Great if you can actually "get it somewhere else"...
To answer the question about protecting against EMP, yes a Faraday cage is great for stopping EM emissions. Full protection requires a bit more work, and think if you have a phone completely wrapped in copper foil and welded arond all of the edges - how the hell do you use it? There are ways to protect hardware without stopping it from doing its job, and on an individual level, such protection is not overly cost-prohibitive. In fact many of the principals for "keeping EMP out" are rather similar to "keeping EMI in" in modern electronics. The FCC and other regional agencies involved with RF have guidlines for how much radiation a device can inject into its environment. The same methods for reducing these emissions are usefull for reducing HEMP suceptablity. Filters on power and data cables, fiberoptics when possible (non-conductive). Electrically continuous cabinet to enclose the entire assembly at "ground" to ensure that all radiated energy is returned to ground. If vents are required, the size, shape quantity or penetrations can be manipulated to get the airflow required while stopping the penetration of RF.
Even a properly designed hallway can be used as a wave-guide-below-cuttoff filter to knock down penetration of RFI/EMI/HEMP. If any of you are really serious about learning what you can do to reduce the damage to your stuff, I recommend looking up mil-assist docs and search the topics: "HEMP", "TEMPEST", "GROUNDING/BONDING/SHEILDING", and "C4I". Most of the stuff is there and publicly available. As with most things, the devil is in the details... miss a crack in a weld on your shield enclosure in the wrong spot, and you might as well not have built it at all...
Cheers!
-T
Quote from: Tim Strommen on January 21, 2012, 12:26:08 AM
Yes, it's likely that the power grid will go down - mostly because it is a country sized antenna system. That doesn't mean that all of your stuff will die. Testing has shown that there are "failures" which are not catastrophic, but rather temporary. Most people my find that after EMP, they get weird behavior occasionally, not total destruction.
Cheers!
-T
You make a lot of good points, but your basing your opinions on the assumption the spike wont exceed the 25KV limit, as well as the assumption that the government is being honest regarding their testing and suggestion that 25KV was the max to be expected or that any equipment could handle it. Perhaps the only thing they are truthful about is the grid will go down, and that all our big transformers are manufactured in China with a 12 to 24 month backlog. Whoever allowed that to occur should be charged with criminal misconduct. There likely isn't a greater threat to National Security than our power grid, and we have a country threatening to attack us holding the keys to it.
The EMP generated in 1962 in the Western Pacific, DESTROYED military grade tube type radios and other equipment that were grounded and shielded and bonded to military standards, up to 900 miles away. This was equipment that was built to withstand very high voltage spikes, short circuits, accidental reverse polarity, antenna shorts, this was much stronger built equipment than anything built for civilians then, and 100's, if not 1000's of times tougher than transistorized equipment built today. There was no turning them off and back on that was ever going to make them work, they were baked. To assume the mickey mouse radios and computer equipment in our vehicles will be safe as long as the key is turned off, because some government entity said so, could be a grave mistake.
Would my 1992 Yamaha 2 stroke enduro dirt bike run?? Kick start, no battery, it has lights , probably ? magneto driven. Been meaning to build a piece of channel steel that plugs into the bus hitch receiver so it travels with me, I don't pull a toad.
Quote from: Dirtball on January 24, 2012, 11:59:55 AM
Would my 1992 Yamaha 2 stroke enduro dirt bike run??
Bet wrong and you'll be hoofin it.
Quote from: Dirtball on January 24, 2012, 11:59:55 AM
Would my 1992 Yamaha 2 stroke enduro dirt bike run?? Kick start, no battery, it has lights , probably ? magneto driven. Been meaning to build a piece of channel steel that plugs into the bus hitch receiver so it travels with me, I don't pull a toad.
doubt it. you would most likely have to go back to point ignition. The early solid state ignition had some weak transistors in them and were a lot of trouble.
They were sealed and just had to replace the whole thing. expensive then.
uncle Ned
likes all old thing buses, bikes and autos
Let's all brace ourselves...
Solar storm's effects to lash Earth until Wednesday
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-16701407 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-16701407)
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fnews.bbcimg.co.uk%2Fmedia%2Fimages%2F58067000%2Fjpg%2F_58067100_013794712-1.jpg&hash=d0970563738f685ef18dbaf69f0a4051f1cc6030)
Jeremy (frantically making a tin foil hat)
Quote from: artvonne on January 24, 2012, 01:37:21 PM
Quote from: Dirtball on January 24, 2012, 11:59:55 AM
Would my 1992 Yamaha 2 stroke enduro dirt bike run??
Bet wrong and you'll be hoofin it.
Just be sure you don't have steel toed shoes cause that EMP will just blow them right off your feet.
hmmm, you think the solar event will keep my toes warm inside the steel toed boots?
We need very trick to keep warm here.
happy coaching!
buswarrior