I saw a MCI bus today with a new Allison being tested the TC-10 a 10 speed the torque converter is for launch only then the other gears lock up pretty neat you guys with the B500 and 4060 better start saving for the new one lol BTW the drivers loved it they told me there was no comparison between the shifting of the auto shift and the Allison
good luck
Darn, I've already installed the 647!
Thank goodness!
Allison has spent too long letting market share go to the automated manual transmissions of ZF and Eaton.
Fuel economy is king, fleets have been stampeding to the 10-12 speed ZF for the last few years in their MCI purchases.
I look forward to trying one. The passenger ride quality will also appreciate a return to torque converter shifting.
happy coaching!
buswarrior
That's good news! I will have to look into that one. I was planning on using the AutoShift with my series 60 conversion. ::)
Like the Autoshift/Ultrashift/Ultrashift Plus, the Allison TC-10 is also a twin countershaft geared transmission. The BIG difference is the Autoshift transmission still shifts like a manual-meaning there is a power gap between gears while the engine slows down for the next gear. The Allison TC-10 is essentially a twin clutch transmission. One countershaft handles 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, speeds and the other 2, 4, 6, 8, 10. So when you start in 2nd gear the other countershaft is already in 3rd gear. When it shifts, the rear clutch simply switches from one countershaft to the other and you have an instant shift. Automatic shifting without planetary gears and without clutches for each gear (only one clutch pack for right or left countershaft choices). We're all very excited about this new transmission technology. This should be the best transmission yet. Good Luck, TomC
This should be interesting to see how accpeted this new tranny is over time. I noticed that all of the new MCI's no longer offer the ZF ASTRONIC only the ALLISON B500. So this new transmission sounds like it combines all of the advantages of a traditional ALLISON with the added fuel savings of the ASTRONIC and it doesn't jerk around like the later. Sounds likea good fit for buses.
Everything old is new again! First invented before WWII, and first popular use in Porsche and Audi racing cars in the 1980's.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_clutch_transmission (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_clutch_transmission)
In use, in some cars, in F1 since around 2005, now in heavy trucks and buses! And in many higher end road cars.
Similar to but different from the pre-selector gearbox:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preselector_gearbox (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preselector_gearbox)
Neat, in any case!
Brian
The days of being a real "professional" bus driver are now long gone. . .
Gone are operators who had the ability and skill to manually shift a wet-clutch GMC Buffalo so smoothly the folks riding along couldn't even tell a gear change had taken place, except for the sound of the Detroit.
Now all we have are "stab 'n steer" wheel jockeys who don't have a clue about what's going on in the powertrain, let alone around them.
I totally understand the mind-set and choices of the owners who shell out the hard-earned cash to buy the equipment, I'd do it too.
As time marches on tho, valuable skills are lost, sometimes to be replaced with other, newer skills, but more often, shuffled off to the halls of time and nostalgia.
FWIW. . .
:'(
Clifford, Has anyone heard if this is available to us pee-ons and what is it going to cost?
Wayne
You could say that about any technology. I'm sure some people thought it built character when you had to crank an engine by hand and were indignant when those "new fangled" electric starter gizmo's came along and ruined the world. Automatic transmissions have been around forever and they have long proven themselves. None of the vehicles I drive both work and personal didn't even offer stick when new. Firetrucks are almost all automatic as these guys have more important things to due than to mess around with a greatshift and clutch. There are vehicles that you can still get them in but the market is what it is.
Tom, what is the current price of the new Allison?
I think you guys are going to have to wait for awhile they are not coming on the market till mid 2012 and will have a 750,000 or 1,000,000 mile warranty so I was told
Allison factory reps are hoping the cost will come in between the UltraShift Plus and the normal 4000 Series Allison. No word on it yet-the transmission is still in testing phaze. Good Luck, TomC
It sure sounds like another advance in general, but I seriously doubt that it will be worth it for our use. I find that the 4 speed auto is quite adequate the vast majority of the time. A 6 would more than cover any of its shortcomings. Of course, that changes if your bus weighs 80,000 pounds.
Quote from: Lin on December 05, 2011, 03:39:41 PM
Of course, that changes if your bus weighs 80,000 pounds.
Or if it has a little 6V71 with advanced timing and N70 injectors (can you say NARROW powerband?)
I'd absolutely love a 10 speed dual clutch!
Roy,
My point is not that anyone would kick it out of bed, but that it really is too pricey a professional for our modest needs. I think you would probably get off a lot cheaper picking up a pretty turbo 6v92.
I am hoping this new 10 speed Allison will have the retarder as an option, I presently have the 4000R, and do love that retarder. ?
It's too early to tell if the TC-10 will have an output retarder. I know that both the Detroit DD and Cummins new version of the ISX have Jake brakes built in as standard. And since the new versions are powered by dedicated lobes on the overhead camshaft, the Jakes are both powerful and quiet. I recently took a DD15 in a Cascadia rated at its' lowest power setting of 455hp @ 1,550lb/ft torque with a 10spd on a drive at 80,000lbs. Went over the Kellogg hill in Pomona, Ca-which is about a 5% grade, and the Jakes held the load without any brake application. The power was pretty effortless also. These new trucks ride so well, are so quiet-I wish some of the new drivers could have driven my first Diesel truck-which was a cabover International (1972 model) with a screaming 6-71N in it with a 10spd. I wore ear plugs and wished for a kidney belt at times. Good Luck, TomC
Time and technology. This Airline Pilot who flew heavy metal for NWA, bought a little Cessna 150 out east, and flew it back to Minnesota. His biggest comment was how hard it was to fly IFR, having become so used to just sitting and back pushing a few buttons, and letting the computer fly the plane. He admitted the little analog plane showed him he had become quite rusty in his skills, and questioned why that kind of training wasn't ongoing, to keep guys up to standard.
Its the same in motor racing, that cars have become so sophisticated, were likely on the brink of being able to have the car drive itself, with the "pilot", sitting over at the pits driving it like a video game from a console.
Now it looks like it could come to pass in ground transport. And it would be welcomed by the sensory dulled masses......who needs a driver, when a computer can do the job better, faster, and more efficiently. With auto shift and auto brake, and every thing's going auto park, its only a short way to auto steer. Set location, set destination, and bada bing, bada boom.
It would be hard to imagine vehicles completely without drivers but you certainly cannot rule that out either. There was a time that you had to have people operating elevators. I know I may get blasted by the stick shift fans but the idea of automatic transmission is not to offend people who love stick shift. The idea to is get the bus from point A to point B and auto has proven itself many times over. Imagine transit and skooolies and fire trucks with stick nowadays? I know as a firetruck nut that some people don't like the newer fire apparatus. I politely tell them that they never built them so people like us have something to admire many decades form now and that the new features were born out of safety and improving overall operations of the rig. But some say they don't care they just wish things were the way they were many years ago. Steam vs. diesel in the rail commnunity is another example.
At some point, we'll al have to admit that driving was a craft back then because we had no choice - the technologies available back then dictated driving to be craftsman like.
But driving was never MEANT to be a craft; rather, simply a method of providing transportation. So, if a computer controlled transmission can shift faster, smoother, and last longer (compared to rookies with a stick), then why not?
99% of Greyhound riders do not care how "crafted" the driver is as long as they get there safely and relatively comfortably.
Without a doubt technology has improved our efficiencies, probably improved the service life of engines, transmissions and associated systems, but there has been a tradeoff.
The impact is very clear in aviation. The old barnstormers were pilots in the truest sense of the word. Today's pilots are becoming systems managers and they lack the fundamental skills to take over when something goes wrong. It is pretty easy to cite some recent crashes attributed to pilots who lacked basic skills even though they were responsible for a plane load of people.
We are seeing the same of drivers. Few on this forum will debate how disconnected other drivers are on the highway. From our higher vantage point driving the coach we see all manner of ways motorists while away the time when they should be driving. They don't have to shift gears so that leaves one hand free to hold a cell phone to their ear, or text or play on a laptop, or monkey with the radio. Drivers no longer need positional awareness skills because their GPS takes them from door to door. It would be interesting to see how many of the younger drivers could actually use a map. I seriously doubt if a lot of drivers know where they are when they travel, other than they are somewhere between the start point and the end point.
My 20 year old grandson has zero mechanical skills or understanding. That's OK as long as he is astute enough to recognize he has to have someone deal with a strange noise or vibration or an errant gauge. But by design the car manufacturers have isolated the driver from reality by actually concealing the mechanicals and discouraging an owner from understanding a little about what is going on. That disconnect is going to lead to drivers who are nothinbg more than passengers with a steering wheel in their lap. The car has anti lock braking, it has stability control, cruise control, GPS, an in the case of my newest car 28 processors to keep me from hurting the car or myself.
We used to think nothing of driving through deep snow, rain, icy roads and as long as we had some basic tools we could keep going under most circumstances. Not any more.
If technology is so great I wonder why so many on this forum are driving vintage coaches with manual transmissions requiring driving skills and mechanical abilities?
Well said but there is no excuse for not paying attention without hacking away on the phone. That's just plain stupid. Whether it's driving stick, making pie from scratch, flying a pre-jet powered vintage aircraft, or operating a steam locomotive, people can choose to do such things and all the more power to them.
Things change. I only recently found out that those short whips where originally meant for horses!
One of the downsides to technology is that when the vehicles age out, they get more expensive to maintain. That applies to us busnuts on a budget as well as the poor folks who can only afford the lowest level of automobile.
I grew up with $10 and $20 cars in the fifties, $3-400 today. We were well know at the junkyards as we tried to keep our heaps running. The poor people of tomorrow, trying to squeeze the last miles out of an old car won't have that ability. I suspect that many of today's cars will be scrapped long before they are completely worn out just because they are too expensive to repair.
Quote from: Len Silva on December 13, 2011, 08:55:21 AM
I suspect that many of today's cars will be scrapped long before they are completely worn out just because they are too expensive to repair.
Sadly, that occurred a long time ago. Parts have become so expensive, as well as machine and service work, many vehicles are worth more in parts.
Heck, these Buses are that way now, they have lost so much value, yet it still costs just as much to repair. One big engine job can out-cost the acquisition cost of many of them now.
That's so true with transit and skoolies. Transits have a prescribed life of 12 years then, they no longer get money from the fed to fix them so they either sell them off or junk them if they are in really sorry shape since it's easier just to buy new ones. Skoolies in some areas have a written or unwritten rule that they are not to be used to transport crumb crunchers once the bus is 10 years old. The operators also get money from the public pot so what do they care and they love to buy new buses. That's why the old CROWN and GILLIG are no longer built because the market favors the throw away idea. Getting back to ALLISON. Like it or not, the market is what it is.
To fit into some retro bus applications. I for one would have more fun shifting the infamous close ratio RTO910 Fuller 10-sp Roadranger. HB of CJ (old coot) :) (who likes shifting gears) :)
Quote from: luvrbus on December 04, 2011, 02:11:31 PM(snip) a new Allison being tested the TC-10 a 10 speed the torque converter is for launch only then the other gears lock up pretty neat
Clifford, is this an "electronic" transmission? If so, is there a "manual" setting so that it can be used with a non-electronic engine? Thanks, BH
I would doubt that integrating with a non electronic engine is even on the map.
In fact, I would fire an engineer that suggested such a foolish idea in 2011.
The on-road engines have been electronic for how many years now?
No market, no income, waste of resources.
The earliest ATEC Allisons, with those throttle position sensors, mated to a mechanical engine, are the last of bridging the gap.
And they worked like crap.
Allison has lost a ton of sales to those automated auto boxes, they need market share back. New vehicle sales is their focus, not the re-treads.
The future busnuts will be those who wizard the various bits and pieces to work together with electronics.
We old school types, we are the ones who fit in with the buggy drivers with the manual spark advance, hand cranks, and shoveling coal into the boiler.
And, we shall continue to do so proudly and with great flourish.
happy coaching!
buswarrior
I believe the last mechanical engine to be offered in a truck or bus was the Caterpillar 3406B 425hp. I know that when I bought my '93 Freightliner it had a 3406C PEEC (Programmable Electronic Engine Controls) that was basically an electronically controlled engine throttle-which could easily be reconverted back to a mechanical engine. I believe around 1996 was when all mechanical engines disappeared. Hence we're talking around 15 years that electronically controlled engines have been around. So saying that the TC-10 electronically controlled transmission will only work with electronically controlled engines is accurate. Good Luck, TomC
Quote from: TomC on December 13, 2011, 10:09:19 PM(snip) 15 years that electronically controlled engines have been around. So saying that the TC-10 electronically controlled transmission will only work with electronically controlled engines is accurate. Good Luck, TomC
But, but, but ... the ex-spurts on here say that elec-engines are unreliable, cost $$$-thousands to repair and maintain, parts prices are terrible, they won't fit in anything, and they give your dog gonorrhea. Wassa busnut to do????
The qualifier is that the electronic drive trains that are corrupted and corroded, by way of wiring pierced by idiot techies, are a busnut nightmare. And pretty much everyone was piercing wires back then, since they always did it with the older coaches... add in the natural aging process and cracking wire insulation...
Piercing wires today will get you fired right out the door in any respectable shop.
Any busnut who has replaced the wiring on an electronic drive train enjoys reliability.
Just as the paint needs freshening, the interior needs torn out and replaced, rust dealt with, a few panels straightened or replaced, freshening up the wiring will be on the new busnut's agenda.
happy coaching!
buswarrior
Splicing wires on an electronic engined truck is a big no-no. Especially if systems are multi-plexed. At least on Freightliner's M2 line, the wiring is multi-plexed-meaning we have "smart" switches-which are switches with built in electronic tones. The computer picks up these tones (think like a telephone) and then turns on the corresponding apparatus. This has the advantage of eliminating over 150 wires under the dash. But-if it goes south, you're on a hook to the nearest shop. This is why Freightliner has their line of multi-plexed wiring trucks, and Western Star still wires their trucks the original mechanical way (which I prefer).
Pretty much-you either accept the electronic engines and possibly electronic wiring, or you buy an old enough bus that still is all mechanical. Personally-I like the mechanical way. That's why I'm converting my '85 Kenworth-it has zero computers on board. And in California, RV's are exempt from smog laws (at least for now). Good Luck, TomC
Some vehicles have gone even further and use fibre-optic 'wiring' now. I've no idea if any commercial vehicles have taken this step yet, but do know for instance that the Range Rover went to a fibre-optic loom as far back as 2005, although not on every system.
Jeremy
And all of us know how reliable a Range Rover is-NOT. Good Luck, TomC
Hey, my Range Rover hasn't broken down once in the last couple of years. I've not used it during that time you understand, but still, it's not broken down.
(To be fair, it's generally reckoned that Land Rovers are pretty good nowadays. But they definitely still carry a stigma from when they weren't)
Jeremy
Most of the modern buses use the German CAN wiring system now talk about a PITA
good luck
I took some Prevost factory training on the multiplex system they use in their coaches. I initially thought it was going to be scary. I am a believer in the current (no pun intended) technology.
There are a number of larger and smaller "brains" or modules that all share a twisted pair of communication lines. Those modules handle almost all of the switching previously done with relays or mechanical switches. Because the system is always measuring itself the modules are smart enough to recognize a problem and to report the problem to the message center at the dash.
The point is unless and until someone starts getting creative with wiring or devices the system is very reliable, but more important if a module has a defect, one not handling a critical function can be pulled and put in place of a defective module. The new module will be retaught to handle functions at its new address automatically and when convenient the damaged or defective module can be replaced.
Where sytems like this are going to frustrate people who are stuck in the past is any changes such as swapping one type of headlight for another will require a change to the master computer. Prevost will retain a copy of the new software. The change of any component or elimination of a component is seen by the module(s) as a defect and will be reported on the message center. The system however is extremely helpful because it is always monitoring and trouble shooting its functions. No more guessing about a problem. The system narrows it down. If you can figure out a smart phone you can figure out a multiplex system and message center.
I get the chills looking at some older coaches. The level of craftsmanship in some cases is scary with a mess of wires just cut and hanging and splices and wire nuts and all sorts of patched together circuits. Any of the newer vehicles whether cars, trucks or buses that are using this technology are going to be intolerant of such creativity. But don't fear the technology. Yes in sme cases to do a conversion on a formerly seated coach with multiplex will require a visit to a Prevost shop, but that multiplex system has about 30% fewer wires, switches, circuit breakers and lengths of wire. In the long run it is going to be a lot better.
Quote from: luvrbus on December 14, 2011, 07:57:04 AM
Most of the modern buses use the German CAN wiring system now talk about a PITA
good luck
AMEN!
Quote from: prevosman
The point is unless and until someone starts getting creative with wiring or devices the system is very reliable, but more important if a module has a defect, one not handling a critical function can be pulled and put in place of a defective module. The new module will be retaught to handle functions at its new address automatically and when convenient the damaged or defective module can be replaced.
The system however is extremely helpful because it is always monitoring and trouble shooting its functions. No more guessing about a problem. The system narrows it down. If you can figure out a smart phone you can figure out a multiplex system and message center.
I get the chills looking at some older coaches. The level of craftsmanship in some cases is scary with a mess of wires just cut and hanging and splices and wire nuts and all sorts of patched together circuits.
NOT NECESSARILY TRUE! (at least not on all brands!) On our 2005 Setra's we had a problem created by another problem (see paragraph below) and stole a "known" good module from the exact same location on it's sister coach. (consecutive VIN's & 100% identical)
But the problem was not solved by changing this module. And in fact when the other module was put in the other coach it then would not recognize it either!
Only after calling Setra did we learn that ANY TIME a module is changed one for another it has to be reprogrammed by a Setra technician with his "STAR" Machine (Setra's own PROLINK type system for the coach side of things, and not available to anyone BUT SETRA EMPLOYEES!) or a "self healer" which anyone can buy from Setra for $850 (and I have one sitting here in front of me on my desk as I type this! It's the 1/2 size of a pack cigarettes and plugs into the SETRA data port like a PROLINK does the DDEC port)
Had to use it on both coaches in order to get them to recognize their own modules once we found out what the idiots had screwed up! And corrected it.OK now back to the beginning of the trouble above. Dad was driving down I-55 just south of Memphis, TN and the bus just shut off like he'd turned the key off.
But he hadn't.
We called Setra and they had dad do some "preliminary tests" which none of them helped pin point the problem. So they called Clarke Power Services out of Memphis to send a service tech out and hook it up the DDEC to a computer/prolink and see what it was.
Well that still didn't tell them anything new!
(in the mean time I had called an associate to come get our passengers off the highway and onto their destination.)
So along comes a big wrecker and that bus gets it's 1st tow! They take it back to Clarke in Memphis and lock it up for the holiday weekend. (Easter weekend and I was in FL on the beach)
On Tuesday they start trying to find the problem with Setra's tech support by phone. And after 3 days of unsuccessful attempts to find & fix the problem Setra sent a field rep to Memphis to see if he can help find it.
Well on Monday he determines that it is a broken wire between the ignition switch and the DDEC unit for power to the DDEC from the switch.
So he tells them they need to run a new wire from the DDEC to the ignition switch. After supposedly "trying to find the broken wire" for 4 more days, they finally decide do as he suggested @ the beginning of week 2 in the shop.
On Monday of week 3 they call and tell us we have run a new wire, but it's still not right, and we are getting strange codes on our code readers.
SO all week they fool with it until the field rep shows up again on Thursday. And tells them "No wonder your having problems, you just tied into the old wire on both ends and left it in line! You have to eliminate it from your new circuit as it is part of a "CAN" system."
So Thursday evening of week 3 they call me and tell me it's ready. So on Friday morning I get a ride to Memphis and get dropped off to pick it up.
Well just like Gomer Pyle would say
"SURPRISE, SURPRISE, SURPRISE" it was not ready! They were still not done with it. They were having issues with something.
SO I waited a little while before getting upset. Then I went out to the bus to see what it was holding things up. And they were still fooling with wiring.
I called our Setra Field Rep and told him about it and he was PO'd and called them.
(he & I had told them I had to have it on Saturday!)
Finally they tell me it starts and runs, but it still is doing weird things.
So I asked like what? They said for one the lights turn on & off by them selves and the flashers do to.
SO I get in the bus and start it an sure enough the emergency flashers come on for about 2 minutes and go out.
I told them "Hey look it's Friday evening and WE HAVE TO HAVE IT TOMORROW! It's just gonna have to be goofy is all I can say!"
So they put the wiring slide out tray back in place and close the compartment and tell me OK your good to go.
Well the door starts to shut then suddenly jerks back open. The inside lights don't work, the heat/ac system display won't adjust from "auto" the audio/video system won't come on.
And the service panels in the floor of the bus in the rear are not put down!
I went back inside and told them "It ain't nowhere ready to go, and you'd better get somethings fixed now, or get another bus company to do the run it's supposed to do tomorrow at your expense and either get me a rental car, or a hotel and cover my expenses from this moment until I get my bus back. You told me 24 hrs ago it was ready, and we took your word for it, and I've been here 12 hrs so far today and I'm tired, hungry and PO'd!"
While waiting for them to figure out what they were going to do I went back to the bus and figured out the problem with the door. They had folded the lower mirror around into the path of the door and when the safety strip on the door edge touched it the door would go back open in safety mode!
Then the guy that came out and put the floor panels down told me some of the screws are missing, I'll go get some.
I knew this was going to be interesting.
So a few minutes later he comes back with some long sheet metal screws and goes back and fiddles around for a few minutes and comes back out and says it's done.
I walked back to the back and as I walked on the panels they settled in the floor and much to my horror/surprise the sheet metal screws stuck up about an inch above the floor/panels!
I went back inside and asked for the supervisor. When he said that would be me I told him "Sir I need your full name and the name of that idiot that just left exposed screws sticking an inch about the floor level for someone to get hurt and SUE you, him, & CLARKE POWER SERVICES over! I will not be responsible for this!"
He just looked at me in disbelief and asked me to "show him what I was talking about"
So back to the bus we went. And I showed him that if he or I stepped on the panels that were not properly secured by his idiots sheet metal screws they exposed the screws. And told him if someone got hurt I would see to it that they sued Clarke and not us.
Well he was as PO'd as me by then and went inside and sound his idiot. I didn't hear the word exchange, but I saw it and he ripped that guy up one side and down the other! I did hear the last words he yelled as he walked away. "I don't care how, but find someway to fasten those down where no one will get hurt! AND DO IT NOW!"
So I'm sitting in the drivers seat on the phone with the field rep and watch the guy get on the bus with some "lag" bolts, a hammer, and other tools.
About 5 mins later he gets off the bus and says that should do it!
I could not believe it and told the field rep what had just happened while we were talking. I got up and went to the back and looked and sure enough 3 off the holes had lag bolts in them. But the panels were secure as I walked on them, and I was too pissed and tired at this time to fight anymore so I left!
I drove the bus the next day with the other issues with no interior lights, no audio/video and the HVAC system doing what it anted too.
On Monday dad & I started working our way through the issues and Setra insisted that we needed a new yada yada module and they could overnight us one for $3000.
That is when we went to the Clarke Power Services shop in Jackson, TN and stole the yada yada module out of the unit in their shop for a transmission.
And when we discovered you can't just swap modules from place to place or coach to coach with out a "self healer or "Star" machine!
So we paid $850 for a self healer and had it over nighted. And then found out the next day it still didn't correct the problem.
After a week of dad & a service tech on the phone together checking wires from one end to another in all the circuits effected I accidentally stumbled on the problem by accident when dad had me unplug a plug from a module out under the driver seat. And I saw the wires were twisted funny and very short/tight from another plug.
With dad checking the wire numbers and the tech support telling dad which wire should be in which position in what plug. We discovered they had switched 4 wires from two plugs that shouldn't have been touched!
Once we swapped those wires back everything worked fine with either module in it! (after running the "self healer" after swapping modules that is!)
OK while it is true some wiring rats nests are very scary to look at sometimes. At least on the older coaches it ain't that hard to run a new wire to replace a mess! And there ain't much wiring required to make it run to get it home where the wiring in question can be ripped out and redone correctly! Try that on a 2005 up model, and let me know what the wrecker bill costs!
;D BK ;D
Perhaps that's why some companies only buy new buses and sell them off early. It might be cheaper in the long run.
For most of my life, I have only bought used cars and trucks. I think the next one will be new. There are just too many expensive things to go wrong when they get 8 or 10 years old.
I had my Mercedes 300 turbodiesel towed-the flex plate between the flywheel and the torque converter cracked and was making a big racket. The tow truck operator said that Range Rovers by a long shot are what he tows the most of. And considering how many are sold compared to the bigger companies, that's pretty bad. Good Luck, TomC
Yeah, but most of those Range Rovers won't have actually broken down - it's just that their owners have found an imaginative way of reducing the fuel consumption; and anyway, a Range Rover on the back of a recovery truck is still a better vehicle than all those boring ones that move about under their own power.
Can you tell I'm slightly biased? :D
Jeremy
PS. I spent some time recently doing some serious research into Porsche Cayennes, after finding that the early ones are theoretically within my budget. Talk about horror stories - if you think Rangies are unreliable and expensive to own, it seems Cayennes are in another league again.
BK......I can only speak about the Prevost Multiplex system where changing modules can be done all day long and the system is perfectly happy with that happening.
I have zero knowledge of any other system. None. Nada. Zip.
Apparently Setra chooses to do their system differently. But I do know for sure the Prevost system is a joy to work on because the message center will tell the technician or driver what is happening, and the master module is the only module that will require reprogramming and which is not interchangeable with any other.
In the Prevost system each module location has an "address" that is defined by white wires that go from specific pin(s) to specific pin(s) on the connector. All modules in the coach are generic, and their function is only defined by the master module when the module is placed at that "address". They are as interchangeable as relays. The system doesn't care which goes where because it will teach each module its functions once it is in place.
Where future problems are going to occur is when technicians chose to start getting creative. If a coach has LED side markers and one has to be replaced, and the technician used an incandescent bulb type side marker the system will know something is wrong. The modules not only handle the electrical switching internally, up to 30 amps each, there are "soft" circuit breakers because the system knows what power consumption or resistance there should be on a given circuit and that change will be flagged as an error message and the module will open the circuit. The days of splicing into a wire to add a new light or device are gone. Changing devices with lower or greater power requirements such a headlights are no longer possible without reprogramming the master module to the new values.
But to eliminate those types of issues the coach has multiple locations where new devices can be added by hooking them to "always on" or "Key on" terminals for power. Those terminals are not monitored by the multiplex system.
My point in all this is no two manufacturers are necessarily going to be alike. What is true for Prevost is not true for Setra or VanHool or MCI. What will be a constant is future repairs and service are going to have to be done by techs who understand the systems, their limits, how they work, and how to access the diagrams and component schedules and who understand the days of cobbling up a repair are gone.
I would have to say that I am ambivalent about the conflict between electronic and mechanical. No one can say that electronic is not superior when it is all working right. The problem for me is that I do not view any of these coaches to have been designed to be maintained by an amateur in his backyard. I realize that some here are not amateurs, but I definitely am. Therefore, I see solving mechanical issues, although much more straight forward, as enough of a challenge. Overlaying the deep mysteries of electronics would be far more complex to deal with. How many times have you seen posts of members trying to figure out if their start problem was starter, cable, battery, generator, or other in origin? If such a simple system as that causes confusion, it could be so much more so when all is electronic. I have had cars with apparently unsolvable electronic problems. I have known people that got rid of cars after the frustration of trying, even when using theoretically qualified mechanics.
Quote from: Lin on December 15, 2011, 09:50:03 AM(snip) I have had cars with apparently unsolvable electronic problems. I have known people that got rid of cars after the frustration of trying, even when using theoretically qualified mechanics.
Lin, I tell people that I grew up datin' North Carolina girls, I worked for British companies for 20 years, and I used to be engaged to a redhead -- so I KNOW what frustration is. But I've never been as frustrated as trying to find an "intermittent" electrical problem! I can't imagine everything being run by a little computer.
Lin,
I am not a professional. I always worked on my vehicles, but with rare exception my efforts were related to oil changes, lube jobs, changing plugs and points, etc.
When I go my first bus in 1990 I did nothing to it other than drive it to Prevost for service. But when they decided they did not want customers in the shop (a policy now reversed) I decided if they can do it, I can do it. Since then there is not much I haven't done. In the course of 20 plus years I have not only done a whole lot of work on both the house and chassis, I have learned the bus, its systems and the system logic. Self taught, mostly by hands on experience in concert with the hop manual sitting in my lap.
But I was always a little intimidated by the electrical side. I could bumble my way through a problem, but when the multiplex cam out I was convinced ponly trained technicians with computers and special software could even think about working on an electrical problem. But Prevost offered factory training and I signed up. A private owner somehow slipped between the cracks and I got to share a class with real mechanics.
But as the training session unfolded and we were taught theory and principles of operation, mixed with accessing and interpreting wiring diagrams, all combined with hands on training on real buses with real problems. The hardest part turns out is developing the discipline required to not shoot from the hip, but to take the information the message center is providing, and tying that in with what the wiring diagrams are showing. Often trouble shooting was nothing more than isolating the message center errors to a single specific part common to all the listed errors. None of the trouble shooting could be done without reference to the diagrams.
At the end of the session we all were very comfortable knowing what we could do and not, and more importantly how to use the message center like we would a driver trying to describe a problem. The message center gives us all the errors, and then we just have to look on the wiring diagrams to find what circuit or component was common to the listed errors and without even working usp a sweat we could go right to a defective relay for example, replace it with a good one and see the message center no longer showed errors. But if you are not disposed towards doing the diagnosis of problems methodically with a study of the bus systems via the diagrams you are in trouble, probably as much trouble as you would be in if the coach was not a multiplex coach.
As much as I used to fight that kind of progress I now actually realize it is far better than what we had before. I am speaking only of Prevost here and it might not apply to any other coach or vehicle.
Quote from: Oonrahnjay on December 15, 2011, 10:08:51 AM
Quote from: Lin on December 15, 2011, 09:50:03 AM(snip) I have had cars with apparently unsolvable electronic problems. I have known people that got rid of cars after the frustration of trying, even when using theoretically qualified mechanics.
Lin, I tell people that I grew up datin' North Carolina girls, I worked for British companies for 20 years, and I used to be engaged to a redhead -- so I KNOW what frustration is. But I've never been as frustrated as trying to find an "intermittent" electrical problem! I can't imagine everything being run by a little computer.
But that is the point. The system itself points you in the right area for trouble shooting. Usually a problem that is occasional goes away by the time you start to grab your tools to start looking for it. But in this case you can either see the error message or access the memory. Depending on what system malfunctions are identified you can isolate a specific component or system portion that has the malfinction. If one of the modules is acting up, or you think it is acting up, swap it with another one. If the switch relocates a problem it is easy to focus on a bad module, but if the problem stays where it was, then the problem lies with the coach.