What the heck is happening with diesel prices? Gas prices continue to decline, but diesel prices are staying stable or even going up. Diesel locally is 80 to 90 cents a gallon more than regular gasoline. I checked Flying J's website and most of the prices are right around $4 a gallon.
I know winter is coming, but the price disparity between the two fuels is getting close to the all time highs for the last few years. Diesel fuel was a little bit cheaper for my trip 6 weeks ago, but gasoline at the time was 20 or 30 cents a gallon more expensive too. The spread wasn't near as high as it is now.
People keep buying it, thats why. If a large group of citizens could make a stand and sit back for a week, not buy any, not use any, the glut of oil that would amass, and the loss of income as a result, would be staggering. Prices would plummet, and stay down for a long while until they figured out how to regroup. In fact the repercussions of such an event could last for months, if not years, especially once people saw their new found power.
Never happen though, so, nevermind.
Never going to change they predict 5 bucks a gals for diesel in 2012 Canada and Mexico export oil to us we turn around and export the finished product to country's all over the world,some of the exports wind back in the mid east as they own refinery's here.
Citgo exports 80% of the diesel made here some of it goes to Iran and Cuba and who knows where else supply and demand has very little impact stop the exports and prices will drop,suck it up the best is yet to come lol
good luck
The only way a mass boycott of oil would work is if people actually cut back on driving for the entire time of the boycott. If you decide to postpone your trip until after the boycott or do it before the boycott you aren't cutting back on use of oil.
Boycotts of gas stations never work because people fill their tanks a day early or wait a day to fill up. Nobody ever cuts back on their actual use of gasoline.
The original point of my post is asking why the heck the spread between gasoline and diesel is so high? It wasn't so much about the price of diesel though it is too high. It makes more angry to see diesel prices so much higher than gasoline than high fuel prices in general.
The new diesel cost more to refine than gasoline not like the fuel of the past quite a process making the new fuel average cost for refinery's to make the switch was a 1/2 billion I worked on one for Sun Oil
I read that this country exports diesel to Europe, because there's not enough diesel there to supply all their cars (most new cars in Europe these days are diesel). This seems implausible - are there really tankers crossing the Atlantic laden with refined petroleum products such as diesel? I suppose it could be true. Whether the US does export diesel or not, it's still no justification to jack up the prices here. As usual, the oil companies have this country by its short and curlies, and "government" is too spineless to enforce equitable price controls on them. As far as I'm concerned they should all be nationalized, just like Pemex. Yeah, dream on.
The local Chevron station where I can actually get my bus in and out yoyos its diesel prices up and down (OK, mostly up) irrespective of gasoline prices. Diesel there went down to $4.05, jumped up overnight to $4.39 (!), slowly crept back down to $4.09 at which point I topped up my tank for the winter, then have climbed up again. It's now $4.45. All this time gasoline is holding steady, or even dropping slightly. What gives? It's a pity Costco doesn't sell diesel.
John
$5 a gallon would be about the point where I might have to park my bus and not use it. Traveling 4,000 miles would cost $2,800 just for fuel. My friends and I split the bill for fuel, but $400 for fuel would be the breaking point for some of them. I know $500 to $600 for a week vacation is cheap some of them are living pay check to pay check.
I know that for many busnuts doing less miles can cut down on costs, but we are going to a national event. There isn't an event that requires say 2,000 miles instead.
I would like to move to a place further away where I can have a garage for my bus, but fuel prices might put an end to that. Why move if there is a possibility of no longer using the bus in the future? My daily commute would be three times as long and my fuel costs would double. (Some of my non-commuting mileage would go down I expect.)
I understand the costs of refining diesel have gone up, but the costs of refining didn't go up 20 or 30 cents a gallon in the past 6 weeks.
There is a major shortage of Sulfur and that is the reason they came up with this time... They (not sure what that means exactly) Anyway, the boycott strategy has never worked but a town in Canada boycott the big oil companies and only filled up at small independent stations (even thought the product is from the same place). The results were excellent and it was organized on facebook and twitter.
Start tweeting boys.
Some said the same thing about cigarettes at $5 a package - funny thing is, they keep on smoking.
Supply and demand it's the same ol' same ol'!
As long as diesel is in high demand it will fetch what ever it will bring.
The oil companies are not stupid they raise the prices here & there gradually and then when people start to slow down or stop buying at the places it's higher then they know what to price it at all over.
Once people get used to and accept that price they start all over again.
And also by the way FLYING J is not the place to check prices anymore.
Every since the "J" screwed up and invest many $ in oil stocks a few yrs ago just before it crashed and Pilot bought them out the "J" is the highest priced of all the "major" players in the "Travel Centers" or trk stops! (Pilot does this purposely to encourage loyal "J" customers to start using their other facilities as well! (it back fired on them for me as I avoid both now!)
;D BK ;D
Quote from: viento1
Some said the same thing about cigarettes at $5 a package - funny thing is, they keep on smoking.
Well what do ya expect from people addicted to polluting their lungs, and living in a cloud of smoke?
;D BK ;D
Wait till the tax write off for the oil co's go away lol business is business and DC is DC.
It is not the oil co's fault your dollar is not worth nothing check out DC lol
I know Flying J is not the cheapest, but it gives a pretty good snapshot of what is happening. For the most part they don't tend to cost any more than the truck stop next door. You might find prices 10 cents lower in town, but you'll spend most of your savings driving around at 60 cents a mile. Here where I live one station this week was charging $4.29 for diesel and $3.28 for gasoline.
At least one of the presidential candidates has said they would decrease gas prices to $2 a gallon if elected. The only way that will happen is if we have a another serious recession or price controls are instituted. Oil companies aren't stupid. They would stop importing oil and gasoline from other countries and start exporting to other countries that will pay more than $2 a gallon. Price controls would likely mean shortages of fuel unless we nationalized all oil companies.
Without examining why diesel fuel costs what it does since I have zero chance of influencing the pump price I do wonder if people cannot afford to pay $XX why have a bus?
Parking the bus is the worst thing anyone can do. Even if we disregard the plummeting value that occurs when a bus is not used regularly and the ongoing cost of ownership whether it is driven or not at some point shouldn't some folks start thinking of the economics of ownership? I have paid as little as $.69 per gallon of diesel, and as much as $5.00 plus. It is what it is. So rather than take a cross country trip, maybe I choose to limit trips to 1000 miles round trip. If I cannot even afford to fill the tank, it is time to park it and do that major two year project I have been wanting to do, or just sell it.
These drink fuel by the barrel and we might be able to improve mileage by a few percentage points, but in the long run we have to be prepared to pay the price of fuel or cut our losses.
For those prepared to tell me how parking a bus eliminates the flow of money, I hope you are considering how mechanical things like to be used, how tires age, and are in fact live longer when exercised routinely, and how batteries age out over time, just like air bags, brake chamber diaphragms, and all the O rings in the various suspension components.
I'd like a 100 foot yacht, but I know I cannot afford the costs associated with ownership. I just sold a plane because before I flew the first hour each year I was exposed to well in excess of $10,000 in costs that could not be avoided. Combine that with the price of aviation fuel and all of a sudden I could no longer justify a plane.
Of course it does not help that Pilot Flying J own more travel centers than any other company by far so they have as much control over the market as the government has. You can bet the prices went up when Pilot bought Flying J. When they were competing fuel cost a lot less.
Mexico has a nationalized oil co they flock across our boarder to buy diesel and gasoline because it cheaper here
Pilot and Flying J are like every thing else here they are not owned by Americans but by the English.
I buy Exxon/Mobil or Chevron/Texaco both cost a few pennies more but you will never see me in a place like AM/PM (BP)buying fuel of any type.Walmart is not bad most of theirs comes from Murphy or Exxon
Flying J PIlot or Pilot Flying J is owned by the Haslam family and is based here in Knoxville. It may have some outside investors, but it essentially is a family owned company. It is not owned by the English.
I think you are wrong there Jon do a little research lol started out that way with Marathon as the major owner now belongs to CVC,Road Ranger and Town Pump.
It is privately held now but I was told it is going public in 2012
good luck
This is my take on some of it... About 6 years ago Diesel was on the average 80 cents a gallon cheaper than gasoline. At the same time Diesel vehicles got about 1/3 better mileage than gasoline. So at that time, it only made sense to own a Diesel. With oil prices on the rise, people and auto manufacturers were catching on real fast. The auto industries were producing more and more Diesels and people were buying more and more Diesels. Then the EPA kicked in and thought that Diesels were warming up the earth. They decided we needed a cleaner Diesel (ULSD) and the manufactures weren't set up to produce enough to keep up with the new high demand of Diesel. Not to mention the higher costs to refine it. And above all this the EPA wanted all our Diesels to emit less pollutants, which in turn sent our mileage plummeting. So I believe that now we have a lot more Diesels on the road, with your latter model ones less efficient, and with the higher costs to manufacture it, we pay more than gasoline.
It sucks, but this is why I believe "WE PAY MORE FOR DIESEL" than gasoline.
The vast majority of diesel use is in commercial service where the buyer has no choice. It is pay the price or go out of business.
I don't think that automobiles, RV's or pleasure boats are going to have much impact whether they buy fuel or not.
Quote from: luvrbus on November 12, 2011, 10:22:37 AM
I think you are wrong there Jon do a little research lol started out that way with Marathon as the major owner now belongs to CVC,Road Ranger and Town Pump.
It is privately held now but I was told it is going public in 2012
good luck
Wrong. Pilot bought out Marathon's 1/2 interest in 1988. In 2001 Pilot went 50 / 50 with Speedway Super America (a subsidiary of Marathon Ashland a joint venture between Marathon and Ashland Petroleum) in a joint venture to create travel centers under the Pilot Name. That joint venture in travel centers is not ownership of the corporation or its convenience stores / gas stations.
PIlot is a big deal here in Knoxville and everything relating to the company is reported in great detail.
Maybe so but did they tell you CVC just pumped another 180mil into it lol they have a 440 mil 62% stake in Pilot,the C stores are owned by RoadRanger and PumpTown
I have no idea where you come up with Pilot buying Marathon in 1988 Marathon and Pilot started the Travel Centers together in 2001 when Marathon sold Pilot then sold 47.5% to CVC that brought their share to 52.5 % CVC owns control with 62% now
Quote from: luvrbus on November 12, 2011, 12:03:41 PM
Maybe so but did they tell you CVC just pumped another 180mil into it lol they have a 440 mil stake in Pilot
good luck
Sure would like to see the source of your knowledge of Pilot. Nothing in a Google search turned up any information about CVC (whoever that is) or anyone else having a stake in PIlot.
I know to go a thousand miles in a camper with a diesel that gets 5mpg at 4 bucks a gal is 800 bucks.
A plastic camper getting 8mpg at 3.25 for gasoline would need just a tad more than half that, 406 dollars.
The cost of letting one sit is significantly lower as well.
Fuel prices are going to all but kill this hobby for average folks.
How about a 3 third quarter report from from CVC,I just checked on Google and Wiki had the info not up to date but shows CVC,RoadRanger and Town Pump.
I really don't care I never stop at one because they are always so nasty,but I do keep track of CVC Holding (who ever they are) for personal reasons
Quote from: luvrbus on November 12, 2011, 10:05:06 AM
Mexico has a nationalized oil co they flock across our boarder to buy diesel and gasoline because it cheaper here
Pilot and Flying J are like every thing else here they are not owned by Americans but by the English.
It wasn't all that long ago that fuel prices in Mexico were much lower than in the USA. I know there were busnuts on this board that traveled into Mexico to buy the cheaper diesel. People who live along the Mexico border were traveling into Mexico and buying as much fuel as they could to save money.
For me personally, I bought my bus back in 2006 when the economy was going strong and diesel was around $2.30 a gallon. Fast forward five years and the economy is in the dumps and diesel costs over $4 a gallon. I still have my job, but my expenses keep going up with no pay increase since 2007. Several of my friends who have gone on trips in the past can't go as they have been unemployed for many months.
For me there is no other type of RV that could offer the same type of experience and get better MPG. I already get 7 MPG pulling a heavy trailer and 8 MPG with no trailer.
Regular high sulfur diesel was 2.80 a gal in Sept 11 ULSD was about 3.72 if you could find it Mexico gasoline was higher than diesel it goes up a couple of cents a gal per day I noticed
Uhhhh... Just for what it's worth, we are paying the equivalent of U. S. $2.70 per gallon for diesel fuel down here, and the price goes up a few cents just about every month. Gasoline is about 7% cheaper than diesel.
One of our problems here in Mexico (same goes for U. S.) is that we have had no new refineries built since the eighties, and are now having to export our oil to get it refined, and then re-import it.
It doesn't look like it is going to get better. Obama just put a hold on the pipeline from Alberta to Texas for the tar sands oil so now the emphasis in Canada has shifted to shipping it to the west coast for shipping to China. They seem to want all we can send them. You can thank the enviros for that.
If you want to see a funny interview with a Wall Street occupier (in Canada) watch this video. Its pricelss and typical.
Go to http://smalldeadanimals.com/ (http://smalldeadanimals.com/) and scroll down to "Uccupied in Regina"
Yes they do ship tankers loaded with ULSD to Europe, been happening since the EPA forced the European fuel standard on the US.
Every time the wholesale cost of diesel is a couple cents lower in the US than Europe, the brokers by a hundred million gallons on the market and load it into the tankers going back across the atantic for more crude and off load it in europe, it cost them about 1 cent a gallon to ship it back by the tanker load so with a couple of cents profit on each gallon, they are making at least $100K each time, which is why diesel stays up in price
Quote from: Fred Mc on November 12, 2011, 02:33:10 PM
It doesn't look like it is going to get better. Obama just put a hold on the pipeline from Alberta to Texas for the tar sands oil so now the emphasis in Canada has shifted to shipping it to the west coast for shipping to China. They seem to want all we can send them. You can thank the enviros for that.
If you want to see a funny interview with a Wall Street occupier (in Canada) watch this video. Its pricelss and typical.
Go to http://smalldeadanimals.com/ (http://smalldeadanimals.com/) and scroll down to "Uccupied in Regina"
Don't believe for even a second that, the pipeline was for bringing Canadian oil south,Texas is full of oil that can't get into a refinery, the big company's are building storage facility all over South Texas,for the oil that's coming up with the Natural gas, is dam ne'er a waste product for them, bought the same deal here in N. Dakota, the Chinese have invested 20 billion with a certain company in the last two years,
I am betting that pipeline is for going north more than south, they have already built a line to the west coast and been sending tar sand oil thru B.C
Hate to say it but those enviros may have done us a favor this time.
Quote from: Len Silva on November 12, 2011, 10:46:33 AM
The vast majority of diesel use is in commercial service where the buyer has no choice. It is pay the price or go out of business.
I don't think that automobiles, RV's or pleasure boats are going to have much impact whether they buy fuel or not.
Bowl Slobber. While the possibility of ever getting a group of Americans involved enough to do anything productive is moot, the impact would, or could be staggering. If enough systems back up it would deeply effect commercial operations.
As a mental exercise, imagine everyone in the country stayed home Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday next week, and didnt drive anywhere, and did not buy any fuel ahead of time. In fact, imagine everyone kept their lights and TV's off as much as possible, and just sat back for those days and read a book. Maybe to really expand on this, imagine everyone fasted for 3 days. So they not only aren't going to the store or burning fuel, they aren't eating anything. Walmart is open on Monday, but nobodies there. Flying J's are open, but the only customers are truckers because everyone else stayed home. Oh wait a minute, nobody showed up for work Monday, so the only ones working at Walmart and Flying J are managers.
By Wednesday the President would be on TV SCREAMING for people to come back to work and get out there and "buy some fuel". Oil tankers would be backing up in our ports, Semi's would be backed up at Walmart, Tanker trucks would be backed up at Flying J. Refineries would be so backed up with Gas and Diesel they wouldn't know what to do with it all. Power companies would have to ramp down their plants because demand would fall off so sharply. Natural Gas and Coal deliveries would start to back up. Congressmen and TV reporters would be analyzing the reasons and the impacts. It would be a real game changer. And once the Big boys realized the people had that kind of power, a lot of other things would change.
But its never going to happen, because you, and I, and all those guys over there, and those guys over there, and everyone else are never going to try. Never. But we could.
After doing some work for a refinery & doing a bit of reading, I learned the domestic oil is 'dirtier' than the arab oil - therefore, it cost more to refine it to the EPA standards. Might that be the reason we export it so we can import 'clean' oil?
What about the ever tightening restrictions the EPA is requiring? Those cleaner standards come at a price. . .
I ain't walking, so I'll pay the fuel cost, whatever it is - or - I won't go.
Whenever fuel prices shoot up a drastic amount, traffic lessens & I see more people combining multiple errands into 1 trip. So, it ain't all bad.
BTW, If everyone stayed home, who would be refining the oil? The idea of a boycott having any significant impact seems to be a simpleminded economic viewpoint. Fuel is perishable since it has a shelf life. The local distribution centers rarely have over half a tank & gas stations get multiple fuel deliveries each week, some daily.
The reality is that the cost of a gallon of fuel is quite a bargain even at twice the price when you consider the alternative energy sources.
My kids have first hand experience of the cost of using firewood over natural gas. . . . While I am seeing a nice difference on the power bill, the chain saws, splitter, wood stove, & flue liner cost something to the tune of many years of savings.
Quote from: belfert on November 12, 2011, 08:56:00 AM
$5 a gallon would be about the point where I might have to park my bus and not use it. Traveling 4,000 miles would cost $2,800 just for fuel.
I bought my Bus with the full knowledge we will likely see $6-8 gallon fuel. I really have no idea how to travel any more economically. Motels at $160 a night stack up fast. Three nights pays for a 100 gallons of fuel at $5 gallon. Having a fridge full of normal food and a galley to cook in saves money not eating fast food. Air Travel has become so expensive, and ishy, its not even a consideration.
You can plan differently. You can top off your tank weeks, months, even a year in advance. You can drive in the yard half empty on your return. Both of those coupled together can greatly offset your direct trip costs to another time period, so your all up costs are spread out. You can install a second fuel tank, increasing your range, and spread your costs out even further. An additional 100 gallons could give you 700 miles more range. 1400 miles more range on the back end if you come in the yard dry. More range also allows you to find better fuel deals.
Quote from: kyle4501 on November 12, 2011, 04:46:01 PM
The idea of a boycott having any significant impact seems to be a simpleminded economic viewpoint. Fuel is perishable since it has a shelf life. The local distribution centers rarely have over half a tank & gas stations get multiple fuel deliveries each week, some daily.
The perish-ability of fuel is one of the very reasons a boycott could have such an impact. But thats just my simple mind at work. Were never going to know, because the smart people have all the bright ideas. Like keep paying ever more and do nothing until the whole economy collapses.
You know what led to the housing crises? Fuel at $4 gallon stopped people from moving to bedroom communities. It stopped everything dead in its tracks. And everytime we see some light at the end of the tunnel, everytime it looks like better times could be around the corner, fuel goes up and kills it. And the housing crisis is what led to the entire financial crisis which has spread world wide. And it can all be blamed on $4 gallon fuel.
Quote from: artvonne on November 12, 2011, 05:01:16 PM
I bought my Bus with the full knowledge we will likely see $6-8 gallon fuel. I really have no idea how to travel any more economically. Motels at $160 a night stack up fast. Three nights pays for a 100 gallons of fuel at $5 gallon. Having a fridge full of normal food and a galley to cook in saves money not eating fast food. Air Travel has become so expensive, and ishy, its not even a consideration.
Where do you stay? $50-$60 a night is what I usually pay for 2 adults. A high end Hotel room is $85-$90.
A General Strike, what a great idea. I thought it was only lefties that thought like that. Welcome to the enlightened side.
Quote from: Peter_Crowl on November 12, 2011, 05:26:18 PM
Where do you stay? $50-$60 a night is what I usually pay for 2 adults. A high end Hotel room is $85-$90.
I dont stay in motels. But the few I have I would rather spent a bit more. We have a young daughter, I really dont care to stay at the cheapest No-tel we can find. The point is that rather than spend that money in a Motel, thats money you can spend on fuel. Even at $60 a night, thats $600 in 10 nights. Couple tanks of fuel. How else are you going to travel?
Okay were cheap, we cram the three of us into a pos buzzbox that gets 30 mpg, were going green. Lets say I go up to the cities and back, 1500 round trip. $200 bucks in fuel. I stay in cheap roach infested Motels for 6 nights, $45 bucks a night, $270. Have to eat out, say we eat garbage fast food all week, $40 a day, 7 days, say $280 to eat. Costs me $750 for the week.
Now lets take the Bus. We get 9 MPG (I hope). Costs me $660 in fuel. No motel, $zero. We cook our own fresh groceries, a weeks worth maybe $100 or so, Costs for the week, maybe $800.
So we could have saved all of $50 driving a small uncomfortable car crammed in with a weeks worth of stuff eating junk food?
Seems a no brainer to me. Any increase in fuel I can easily pass off as we could have ate better, stayed in a better motel, etc.. Even if we take Brian's Bus and only get 7.1 MPG, it adds only $185 more. If you stay a few more days and call it motel savings its almost a freebie.
Brian - Other than the seasonal refinery change over to increase heating fuel inventories there have been two other recent events - Obama's authorization to dip into the Stategic Petroleum reserve has ended and some refineries have cutback their capacities and/or temporarily shuttered facilities to cut costs - FWIW
Fuel in a bus should be the least of a bus owners worry it uses fuel not a thing you can do about it expect pay
We left home one year going to a rally in CO Springs diesel was around 2 bucks a gal by the time we got home it was over 4 bucks.
Some camp grounds cost as much motels we have paid up to 100 bucks a day before, check in Circus Circus in Vegas on a weekend lol, 50 bucks + is about the average now for 50 amp service in the better parks you cannot stay in Walmarts all the time
As soon as I seen this topic pop up, I knew that it was going to touch some nerves and turn political. You can't start a topic like this and not do so!
I'm sorry but, WE NEED TO GET THE "EPA" UNDER CONTROL!!! This is our "BIGGEST" problem.
I have many family and friends up here in Alaska that work for the oil companies. They all say the same thing. They say between the EPA, lawyers, safety inspectors, and other government regulations... It takes them more than three times the man hours to produce the same amount of oil.
If you have a piece of equipment on the job site and it dripped one drop of oil, everything comes to a halt. The piece of equipment goes to the shop to be repaired, the cleanup crew comes in to excavate the "spill" one drop. You deal with the EPA and so on.
Most of the old pipe lines that deliver oil today, don't meet today's EPA standards. So to build new lines by today's standards cost three times as much. To extract oil by today's standards cost three times a much and I can go on and on.
Another example... You get a scratch on the job, you get pulled off the job and go see the local Doc. You may or may not go back to work that day. But you get payed.
They spend a good part of the day trying to make sure they take every safety precaution they can. Which means another guy to watch over you. And also lots of safety meetings every day.
And a safety inspector watching everyone's move, which leads to getting wrote up.
Don't get me wrong, this is all good to a certain extent. But they are overdoing it, and it just costs a lot more now to produce the oil. It's going to have to end, or our economic outlook is not going to be good.
someone along the way said that MEXICO has higher costs? I am surprised but it is good to know, thank you.
Depends on where you buy it in Mexico the Baja is about the same as the USA,marine diesel was cheaper in San Diego than Mexico
good luck
All of you going on periodic vacations have nothing really to whine about. How would you like to have your planned full time living screwed up by the ever increasing cost of diesel.
We planned on going to where some light work was, but basically north in the summer, south in the winter. ;D
Cost me $1900 to go from Oh to CO and back, probably $1000 just to get to the bus rally. :(
Living in a house isn't fun, but living in a bus parked in FL isn't either, or OH. :(
But we'll have to earn enough to fill it up because i can't change it.
Your fearless leader just shot you all in the foot by stalling Keystone. If we end up shipping that oil to the west coast its gone as far as North America is concerned. Personally I think its a better business decision to send it west but its sure not good for US fuel prices.
Quote from: Seayfam on November 12, 2011, 08:02:28 PM
As soon as I seen this topic pop up, I knew that it was going to touch some nerves and turn political. You can't start a topic like this and not do so!
I'm sorry but, WE NEED TO GET THE "EPA" UNDER CONTROL!!!
Its not gonna happen. Before the train came along around 1860, everyone traveled by horse or walked. Today you cant get people to drive across town in their comfy car to try and change anything. Could you imagine walking to Washington to be heard? Ha, you couldnt find a 100 people that would do that.
Its not gonna happen. Nobody cares. You see clowns at the gas station gassing up their jacked up 4X4, squealing their tires out of there after a fill. They just don't care.
Quote from: niles500 on November 12, 2011, 07:15:23 PM
Brian - Other than the seasonal refinery change over to increase heating fuel inventories there have been two other recent events - Obama's authorization to dip into the Stategic Petroleum reserve has ended and some refineries have cutback their capacities and/or temporarily shuttered facilities to cut costs - FWIW
Shouldn't the latter two cause both gas and diesel to go up? Gasoline is staying stable or dropping while diesel prices are going up. As I mentioned before, when gasoline was $3.59 diesel was only at $3.89 or so. Now diesel is as high as $4.29 two miles from my house. I know of almost nobody that heats with fuel oil in Minnesota. It is either natural gas or propane for the most part.
Quote from: artvonne on November 12, 2011, 05:21:01 PM
The perish-ability of fuel is one of the very reasons a boycott could have such an impact.
Any price reduction would be temporary as they would then cut back on production to ensure they sold it all next time & the resulting shortage would run the prices up - thereby replacing the lost revenue from the boycot.
It isn't "too expensive", if it was, it wouldn't be sold in the large volumes. When the hurricanes hit the gulf coast & the refineries & pipelines had to shut down for several days, the news media showed an interview with a person talking about how she absolutely couldn't afford the higher price of gas on her fixed income & that she would not pay it. So, as a result, she was forced to stay home & not go anywhere . . . The funny part was - can you believe this? - she was putting gas in her car during the interview!
One problem is lack of a good & viable alternative to independent travel. In Europe, mass transportation works well & is easy to use. I had a company car, but it was often much easier to take the bus & train. Our country is laid out different, so mass transportation won't work as efficiently here.
Then there is all the marketing hype telling all who hear that they
deserve more. . . .
When the "greatest generation" wanted more, they
earned it. Today, when most people want more, it seems they simply demand it. The first thought is to find someone to blame & make them 'pay'. What ever happened to personal responsibility? Why not first asking what 'I' can do differently to improve 'my' situation? When you rely on the actions of others, you are a spectator & no longer a participant.
We must get past the self entitlement & the 'me first' mindset of the masses if things are to improve.
Brian - My apologies - I forgot #2 - While government requirements increasing the percentage of ethanol additive to gasoline to 10% or more of volume is increasing worldwide, more recently many blendor/distributors have cropped up nationwide (thanks in part to government subsidies) and are now online - The case is not necessarily diesel going up, but gas (gasahol) coming down - or more exact "watered down" - FWIW
The US dollar has dropped in value by some fair bit over the last few years, an issue that many Americans are not familiar with.
For instance, not so long ago, a US dollar was equal to 80 cents Canadian. Similar stuff in relation to other world currencies.
Now, they are pretty much equal. Good for a vacationing Canadian that still has a job, quite bad for his next door neighbour whose job used to involve exporting product to the US...
So, that oil may not have changed value as much as your dollars that buy it are worth less.
Smarter economist types may wade in here to elaborate more accurately.
And, diesel, by and large, is what powers the transportation industry in North America, and has a relatively small share of the private consumer individual. Who has access to the numbers?
The trucking fleets often enjoy contracted prices for the fuel, not pump prices. As well, the price of fuel just gets passed on to the eventual consumer.
We have no one to pass the costs on to, we also see the same when it comes to parts prices for the coach.
If we were the middle man, what care would we have?
happy coaching!
buswarrior
Here's an interesting current news article about the relationship between gas and diesel prices.
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/heating-oil-diesel-and-gasoline-make-a-toxic-mix-2011-11-18 (http://www.marketwatch.com/story/heating-oil-diesel-and-gasoline-make-a-toxic-mix-2011-11-18)
It reports that refiners are planning on shifting production from gas to diesel and heating oil right now as they see higher returns in that market.
The whole thing seems pretty simple to me. The refiners shift production to match the market as best they can. It may not be perfect or instant but it is the free market at work and the prices stay close. If it ever did track perfectly the gap between the two would perfectly represent the additional energy density of diesel. That it doesn't track perfectly simply represents the inefficiencies of an imperfect marketplace.
WVO or yellow grease is consistently available for under a buck a gallon and that's my solution :-) it may not be available at the pump but big bays have plenty room for a couple of hundred gallons, conversions are simple and your average busnut knows how to turn a wrench.
Just my .02c worth :-)
Cheers, Paul.
WVO isn't a product that will save the general public from high fuel prices. There is a fairly limited supply of WVO and as more and people turn to WVO as a fuel it will go up in price just like crude oil.
Vegetable oils are going through the roof also Palm oil is way up others will follow,price of diesel is going up sad if it does drop for a short period they will tax it more then when the price goes back up you get a double whammy.
If you cannot afford 6 bucks a gal for fuel by the end of 2012 you need to sell the bus because it will bring 6 bucks on the open market IMO Heating oil was down by 15% yesterday
good luck
If diesel hits $6 the only way a bus will sell is if it is going to be used as a permanent home somewhere.
Quote from: belfert on November 18, 2011, 05:45:09 AM
If diesel hits $6 the only way a bus will sell is if it is going to be used as a permanent home somewhere.
If diesel hits $6.00 a gallon with our present system of trucking our food and products long distances to market filling up the bus with diesel is probably not going to be the No. 1 concern of most of us. :( I'll park the buses out by the pond, put them on blocks, build a porch on them and call em guest houses.
At some point with stagnant wages for most working people for the last 20 years, ever increasing costs for everything we have to have to survive (ever notice how the things you don't have to have, TV's, cameras, gets cheaper, things you have to have fuel, food, gets more expensive) things will get ugly. I think there is a tipping point. Glad I live in a rural area, have guns for hunting and lots of ammo, and a large garden. ( and I am one who has never been of the survivalist mind set).
Rick
The country is changing not for the better either some states are doing away with the red fuel exemption farmers are growing products for fuel now not to feed people, 1/2 of our food is imported now who gets the blame we do for buying the crap
The family farmer can't compete against the large farms owned by insurance co's and other corporations,try planting you 10 acres of peanuts and see what kind of BS and red tape you run into from the government
good luck
I'm not suggesting WVO is the solution for everyone but it is a viable way to keep bus driving an affordable hobby for most. I've driven in veggie fueled diesel Mercedes since '03 and never had to pay a penny for oil.
Quote from: luvrbus on November 18, 2011, 06:53:03 AM
try planting you 10 acres of peanuts and see what kind of BS and red tape you run into from the government
good luck
Try planting Corn next to guy growing hybrid Corn by Monsanto, Monsanto has goons they send to your door, lol.
I see growing food for fuel while people in the world are starving to death, as about the greatest sin against mankind since the Holocaust. But nobody really cares about that when their gassing up.
Quote from: Rick59-4104 on November 18, 2011, 06:01:38 AM
Glad I live in a rural area, have guns for hunting and lots of ammo, and a large garden. ( and I am one who has never been of the survivalist mind set).
Rick
I never thought like that before either, but the world is just rapidly going very crazy.
Artvonne we just got back from a trip to Ft Lauderdale and we did not take the bus.
Here is why.
We stayed at a La Quinta in Lauderdale it had a King bed a couch in the room a bar fridge a beautiful kidney shaped heated pool all landscaped like the westin a beautiful view and our 2 dogs were allowed to stay for free.
68 bucks a night. We drove down in the PU cause of the dogs but if not Southwest is currently flying anywhere for 59 bucks.
We are 1500 miles from Lauderdale 1 way I do not even need to do the math for the bus round trip. The difference in cost has thrown the convenience and comfort factor for the bus right out the window.
Shorter trips......maybe for some. We are in Chi where can we get to that is close and interesting.Not too many places any better than our own back yard.
We are getting rid of ours I have recently been looking at plastic class A but I do not believe we will end up in one of those either I am afraid gas will be north of 4 bucks a gal by next summer.
Our Solution is a travel trailer. It gets us the most bang for the buck can pull it with our PU we already have and it will provide the fix we need for the camping addiction.
I have been scouring the tin can tourists for a vintage trailer and I know we will still enjoy every minute almost the same. Possibly more. Ill get about 12mpg and they dont have another power plant and drivetrain to keep up plates and insurance are peanuts. We are not going to make it to the Keys this winter but you can bet will be down there again next year.
We cannot afford to have fun with the bus any longer or maybe we just cant fool ourselves any longer.
Joe, we bought a Safari Trek with the overhead bed and love it a older model all metal sides and plenty of storage little pricey for a S&S job but we can afford to drive it oil change 7 qts not 7 gals lol 14 mpg average on fuel but it doesn't like towing very good a little weak on that end, without the separate bedroom @ 26 foot it has as much room as a 40 ft bus just our way
good luck
If :: fuel is the main factor in your bus hobby. You made the right decision. Get out-- quick! It is the least expense in the big picture for me. I complain; for sure. When I made $1 a hr diesel was .25cents when I made $42 a hr diesel was $3.70 Should it have been $10.50? Little extreme example but get the example. Plug your own numbers in. The younger you are the less the difference will be. I was 18 making $1 and 60 when I retired. FWIW Bob
Right on with that thought, Bob. I'll be cruising if it hits 10 bucks a gallon. I wont be going as far. As far as diesel prices, we all a getting screwed with opec and speculators setting the price of oil. I still have a shop in the west texas oil patch and they are drilling and producing a lot more oil than they were 10 years ago. I heard thur a friend of mine that works for exxon/mobil that they have been exporting oil to god knows where to refine. I betcha it all doesn't come back.
glen
I can relate to Joe it is not just the fuel he works on these things and so do I if you keep track of what one will cost you over a 10 year period fuel at 10 bucks a gal is bargain lol
good luck
Luvrbus I can buy my old 378 Pete back for cheep. Stretch the frame rails take a 28ft beater travel trailer off its frame and slap it on.
Everybody could have a laugh with it.
Get to drive by every scale in the country wave ans smile as we happen by.
I thought about it but ain't gonna happen either.....If we are going to get out of our bus because of costs we will go all the way.
I think the industry overall will see these same trends from pushers and class A and C to travel trailers because of costs for the consumer.
We could never enjoy a sticks and staples junk but one of these late 60s early 70s stuff that's out there will keep it interesting and fun. We have had them before it will be full circle for us.
That is what the current cost of diesel has fueled this household with. Its back to basics. :-\
And yes to you both we could barly afford to maintain the bus before the issue of the cost of fuel.
This last spring I would have loved to have had about 10k to put into it and it would not have been fuel money
Hey Joe that would be a sight. I wouldn't bolt it down to that Pete, i would rope it down. Kinda like the Beverly Hillbillies. I had a 06 36 foot alfa and pulled with a 04 dodge diesel and got about 7 to 9 miles a gallon on pulls. My detroit gets about 5 and a whole lot more comfort.
Yep Joe a friend has a H-45 8 years old he just put new 315 R tires almost 8 grand out the door all new batteries 7 grand and 6 grand for work at Prevost then it will be the same except more money in another 8 years or less he is selling his also Cooper has it on his site he said he was cutting his costs and run and this guy can afford it
good luck
I bought my 91 early summer and did the same thing , tires, batteries, trip to shop to make sure it was good to go. Paid 57,000 and added another 20,000 so far. Still need things done. That's what you get when buses sit up for years in a barn. The only consolidation is, it still looked and smelled new. If it all turns to hell in a hand basket i can use it to store feed.
Muldoon man Ya could both bolt it down and then go with the rope thing too. That would create a stir going down the road wouldn't it. LOL Everybody who went by would either be petrified or laughing. Great Idea
If we did end up in a housetruck we could continue to hang out here too ;) I think I see a vintage trailer in our future and it wont be bolted to a Pete it will be pulled behind my PU.
This has been modifyed after the fact LOL
An old riveted Airstream, nice.
Be careful with those S&S RV's, I had a neat little 22' 1972 Barth with a 454 and a turbo 400, got 4 to 5 MPG, I always figured about a quart per mile. ;) That was in the hills up here.
I have a 1957 Airstream, last year of the 13 Panel Airstreams, have owed a 1948 Westcraft and a 1948 Spartan travel trailers, both aluminum aircraft construction with aluminum frames and skin. After WW2 until about 1950 the trailers were all aluminum with a strip of wood attached to the aluminum frame to attach the inside paneling to, about 1950 they started using more wood in the framing of the aluminum skinned trailers (except for the early airstreams). Long story short if you can find a '46 up to about a '49 Spartan or Westcraft they make a great vintage camper..
Rick
hey Rick, I think Joe was talking about mounting a camper on an old pete truck, Cool!
Quote from: muldoonman on November 19, 2011, 07:46:11 AM
hey Rick, I think Joe was talking about mounting a camper on an old pete truck, Cool!
I saw an early 60's Airstream grafted onto a Peterbuilt one time it looked pretty neat but required quite the staircase to climb in it.....Had a telescoping staircase and no access from the cab to the camper.
Rick
A little more info - FWIW
http://www.nasdaq.com/aspx/stock-market-news-story.aspx?storyid=201111211601dowjonesdjonline000347&title=us-refinery-status-conoco-completes-oklahoma-turnaround (http://www.nasdaq.com/aspx/stock-market-news-story.aspx?storyid=201111211601dowjonesdjonline000347&title=us-refinery-status-conoco-completes-oklahoma-turnaround)
These are all very interesting comments but there are two main reasons for diesel going up.
1. Truckers are charging a fuel surcharge to all shippers. This has turned into a big profit maker simply because there is no precise way to compute the actual additional cost. So, the natural thing to do is charge much more than the estimated actual cost - result, a nice extra profit.
The other reason is large farmers don't have to pay retail prices or road taxes.
These two groups used to do protest convoys on Washington when diesel prices went up. Now, since the fuel surcharge is allowed, there is no longer any reason to protest.
Since 99% of Americans use gas and not diesel they don't care either.
Nice to see so many rigs that outcost the fuel they burn. Mine dont. I Bought the Bounder for $22K, and have dumped almost $30,000 of fuel through it. If I drove it more it would get even more lopsided.
And while most don't wanna get off their duff to do anything about it, say they'll pay whatever, $10 gal, your kids and grandkids gotta pay that too, and y'all are okay with that? Well, this Country will be dead soon at that rate, it wont survive at $10 gal fuel. Another thing, Campgrounds are having a hard time, not as many campers but costs are the same, ground work is the same, keeping pool maintained costs just as much. The few I know around here, and I know the owners personally at one, they want out. Thay want out BAD, said this was by far the slowest year in 15 years. Even considered turning the grounds into something else, maybe even a Farm, hard to sell a Campground when it aint making money, and hard to stay in it either one.
Yeah, Paul, it's going to be a different world for the grandkids--it probably already is.
I'm sure most of us have similar memories to mine as a kid (late teen). Get a hair up your behind and decide to go for a drive, might be a hundred miles, might be two, could be a thousand. Just something you did, and no one thought a thing about it.
Geez, suck it up sisters...
This is the same BS that was whined and moaned about during the oil crisis in the 70's.
How did that turn out?
And no doubt in every other time back to the Bible and before, when the cyclical nature of the world meant that the working guy didn't have a few spare bucks in his pants.
But, since you weren't paying attention last time, this is your first time through?
The grand kids will be just fine, every generation is, despite the hand wringing of those who came before.
Whether they think of their grandparent as neurotic is in your hands...
happy coaching!
buswarrior
yep!
That is why I'm trying to teach my kids to think for themselves & to read between the lines.
Amazing how they adapt to make the best of things & more amazing to see them planning for the future rather than simply waiting for it to arrive.
I remember when gas left $.50 & went up to $1.00 - I knew I wasn't going to stop driving, so I planned for it.
Quote from: buswarrior on November 21, 2011, 07:28:58 PM
Geez, suck it up sisters...
This is the same BS that was whined and moaned about during the oil crisis in the 70's.
How did that turn out?
happy coaching!
buswarrior
Well lets see, The town we moved from had posted roughly 50% increases during every census, from 1960 to 2000. So even during the oil crisis the city grew at the same average rate. The 2000 Census was 10K. In 2007 the estimated population was 25K and was projected to reach nearly 30K by 2010. Housing was booming, they were adding on to schools, we had 4 big busy car lots, and maybe 1000 small businesses.
Today, the 4 car lots are empty, the lights are out. almost 1/4 of homes are vacant, lawns need mowing. One day we watched as bulldozers destroyed brand new homes after the Bank turned them over to the city.
What happened was gas hit $4 gal, and everything went to hell. And I could stop in 100 other towns and see and hear the same story. The news tells the same story. The politicians tell the same story. You would have to been living in the dark under the south polar ice cap the last 6 years not to know high fuel prices are what have the economy in a mess and what started the who housing crisis.
So I would say the 1970's oil crisis was a walk in the park next to whats happening today.
I'm going to have to say, I'm with Paul on this one.
I am a contractor/real estate investor, four years ago I could build a house and make a good profit on it. To get gravel or concrete back then, I paid $60.00 hr for truck time, now I pay $110.00 hr. The same goes for every piece of material that goes into the house. Even the equiptment time for drilling wells, installing septic systems, and building driveways.
All materials going into the house get trucked or shipped up to Alaska and cost a fortune now. But at the same time our housing prices have dropped off about 30% in the last 4 years. So now I can't make a profit if I pay people to work for me. The last two years I have been doing it all on my own and have been really roughing it. I really don't see anything changing unless the fuel prices go down. The only thing that worries me about that is... I don't believe the trucking prices will drop as much as they raised.
I must say, I feel for the younger generation. The guys I had working for me were all in their early 20's and really just getting started. Now they are unemployed and having a hard time finding jobs. I'm sure it will all get better as it always does, it's just going to be awhile.
Sure, higher fuel prices hurt, but that ain't the real problem. The result of blaming it only on the cost of fuel is to provide a distraction from the real truth so one can continue to hide from reality in order to avoid the effort required to recover.
One must consider the effectsthat self entitlement ( pay later, you deserve more, easy credit, bogus appraisals, & lending 110+% with nothing down ) had on the economy & how that caused the current economic mess we in.
Way too many people got used to living way beyond their means all financed on the speculated future value of their house or other real estate holdings. When the bubble burst, the resulting fallout was inevitable & expected (even by those who have to been living in the dark under the south polar ice cap the last 6 years). :o
I pay as I go & do without a lot of things. I don't believe in 'a free lunch'. I have been working on my conversion for better than 8 years, and I'm not going to stop for fuel prices - I'll make adjustments as necessary to enjoy my time with family & friends.
Things will get better when the entitlement mindset is in the minority & the majority accept responsibility for themselves.
Interesting what you say about gasoline prices killing communities. J.H.Kunstler discussed this exact subject in his book "The Long Emergency" - I don't necessarily agree with all his hypotheses, but I do agree with his assessment that so many bedroom communities will suffer when (not if) the costs of driving become too high for most people. These communities, like so many cities in this country, were predicated on the ready availabilty of cheap fuel. With this a fast-disappearing resource, the entire face of this country's housing will inevitably have to change, along with the resultant social structure.
Yes, high diesel prices will hurt us in the short-term, but in the long run we may be far better off than those folk who are shackled to increasingly-expensive lives in communities with essentially no public transportation. These people will suffer most. If things get bad, us mobile dwellers (or potential mobile dwellers) will be at a definite advantage. As any biologist can verify - Adapt, Or Die.
John
Diesel price is going up and gasoline is dropping.....
diesel sales are subsidizing gasoline prices this time around so the economy doesn't tank
Quote from: Iceni John on November 22, 2011, 03:03:51 PM
If things get bad, us mobile dwellers (or potential mobile dwellers) will be at a definite advantage. As any biologist can verify - Adapt, Or Die.
John
I disagree. When fuel costs make the less fortunate among us park their vehicle, they will become increasingly militant. Driving down the road in a big shiny Bus will send those people in an absolute rage.
I owned a Ferrari that was keyed right down to bare metal, both sides, bumper to bumper, for no other reason that jealous anger. That kind of behavior has been spreading world wide, you can no longer leave nice cars or things outside where the public has access, or they will wreck it, spit on it, etc.. I know guys who sold the car just because the areas they live have gotten too scary to own anything like that.
Back in that town I came from, the last few years it got to where you could not leave a vehicle sit outside unattended. If they weren't stealing stuff out of it after smashing your window, they were stealing the wheels, or worse, crawling underneath with a cordless sawzall and taking your catalytic converter. Sucked to be you if they couldnt get anything, they would get angry and wreck it more. And we thought it was kids. The few they caught were grown men, 30 plus years old.
Fuel price control every aspect of the average persons life any of you guys been into a grocery store lately or bought clothing the average guy who moved his family from the city for a better life is suffering it cost him 25 bucks a week driving to work now cost him 75 bucks how do adjust for that.
I been around long enough to remember when gasoline was 18 cents a gal and diesel was 11 cents we had a new home and new car living good on a $110.00 week hell I just spent a weeks salary for the wife,me and grandsons on meal.
One thing some have to forward too is it's going get to worse
good luck
If $50 a week breaks the budget, how would it survive any unexpected expense like tires or a car repair?
My grandmother told me that if ever I found that I couldn't save a day's pay each week - then I was living beyond my means. I thought that was a bit unrealistic, but then I realized that others made less than me, so I thought I could suffer thru it. Rainy days aren't so dark when you aren't on the edge.
It hasn't ever been easy & I have cheated many times, but thru all the difficult times, we've managed to stay ahead. I don't like having to cut back, but usually it is necessary in order to stay within my means. The sooner I make the cutbacks, the less severe they have to be. . . .
I believe living within your means requires planning ahead & self discipline. The rewards aren't always immediate.
50 dollars a week hurts as some people earn less than 20,000 a year and they pay the same prices as the ones that make a 100 grand a year to drive to work 2400 a year takes a big bite out of the budget for those but they survive and those I have a great deal of respect for those
I see this first hand as we have a small organization I am a member of where we help working people trying to survive and go to work with help for fuel a tank a month
I wish we could do more but there is no way but they appreciate what little we can help these are 10 to 12 dollar a hour people Kyle not 30 to 60 dollar wage earners and their cost is the same as yours driving to work maybe in a Honda and not Lexus but they working
good luck
I may come across cold hearted, but I've seen the hat passed for people who make more than me- yet they still won't cut back. I try not to judge, but when they have more stuff than me . . . .
I know the difference between needs & wants.
I know how much I can spend before I run out.
I know how much intrest on a loan costs.
I ain't as far over 20,000 a year as many think & my wife has been out of work for 4 months. I sure would like to know what 30/hour is like! I can't imagine 60! talk about easy money & early retirement . . .
I don't have satelite or cable TV. We share a family cell phone plan with my parents.
My newest car is a 2001 model.
I have carpooled to work because I didn't have enough for gas & car repairs - walked 1/4 mile to meet the ride & often had to wait over an hour after work for the ride home.
I am so tired of PB&J for lunch.
I can't remember the last time we had steak - much less went out for a steak dinner.
I sure am glad I started saving 20% early on - wouldn't have the bus hobby without it. Like Mom said, "If you can't afford to save it now, you never will".
Spending less than you earn pays big rewards.
Some will cut back on fuel, I will too, but I won't stop using it.
I realize we don't all think the same, and we all don't have the same incomes or resources, or the same knowledge, backgrounds, or suffered as much as someone else, or not suffered like some others have. The fact is, everyone here, richer and poorer, has decided they want a Bus, some of us whether we can really afford it, or whether it even makes any sense. I guess thats the "nuts" part of it. And equally, most of us will find a way to support our dirty thirsty habit regardless of the pump price, at least for the near future.
But this is not the early or mid 70s and this isn't just another gas crisis. While I personally do not believe we will run out for several hundred years, and while I don't even believe its left over dinosaur fuel, most of the world does and at some point its going to simply become to hostile to go anywhere whether you can afford to or not, because as the cost goes up its going to force many people to park their car. And then our big ol Bus is going to become a big ol target.
Another way of looking at it is, you can do everything right, paint your house, mow your grass, pick your weeds. But when 1/3 of your neighbors have gone toodle loo and their houses yards are 2 feet high in grass and weeds with bums sleeping in em and windows broke, your house wont be worth dirt squat. So whether you and I can afford it, or worked hard, or saved money, it may in the end not make a hill of beans difference if the rest of the people go loonie tunes. Thats why I feel getting the cost of fuel down is so important. To keep it sane.
And in the 70's, during the fuel crisis, what was inflation doing to wages and the real values of assets, and interest rates doing to debts?
The issues were just as complex and worrying then as they are now. And the topics the same, jobs, housing, fuel, and the future for the children. Not to mention the horrible work ethic of those rock and roll listening young people entering the workforce...
Every generation, and doubly so anyone closely linked to the boomer generation, think it never happened to anyone else before them.
Those who choose to ignore history....
Towns rise and fall, jobs come and go, labour has to move to where it is needed, famine, pestilence, war, and bad decisions wipe out families, communities and entire cultures, the poor are jealous of the rich, everything is cyclical; which medieval fiefdom dared flash its wealth around, for fear of a neighbour taking a liking to it and taking it by force?
Only those with real power, and the will to use it ruthlessly, would have driven a Hummer earlier in the cycle of history. So what gucci wearing, inadequacy compensator thinks the masses will leave his ride alone, while brazenly illegally parked at the curb, while he pretends to be something he isn't, in a club that overcharges for the beer?
Carrying a lease on an expensive car, or paying the parking tickets, is not power.
So, busnuts, rather than worry about stuff we neither understand, nor can have much impact on, except to vote when we have the opportunity...
Keep your powder dry, weather the storm, stick to the basics that the smarter of the old folks did, and how can it go wrong?
happy coaching!
buswarrior
I believe that when you force the cost of something well below it's true value, you cause a general contempt for the actual value of a dollar. That will also have a major negative impact on the economy.
If you trace the current economic problems back to the root causes, you will see personal irresponsibility crop up as one of the most common factors. Gullability & greed will be popular too.
Blaming or focusing on one thing will only distract us from making intelligent steps towards recovery.
History shows :
this recession was coming for a long time,
the longer it was postponed, the worse it will be.
The more the government interferes, the longer it will last.
I don't think anyone is asking for fuel to be forced down below its true realistic cost, but rather for the EPA to get the hell out of the way. We need more refineries and less manipulation of our fuel, less micromanaging every little ppm coming out our tailpipes. I also think it would help if fuel was taken out of futures trading. We certainly cant control what other countries do, but most of the trading is happening stateside, and if we took it off the table here, the rest of the world wouldn't have anyone to play with.
Another thing was years ago, collusion was illegal and heavily enforced. Its so unenforced today most people don't even know what it means.
Yes, If left in futures trading, the only ones that should be allowed to buy or sell futures in gasoline are those who produce it & those who actually use it. Also, you would be limited to how much you produce or consume during that time period.
Some of the EPA rules are good (ever hear of Love Canal?), just would be better if they weren't the final authority.