Looks like the latest fallout from having to pull and replace the engine back in July to fix a leaky gasket is my power steering system.
As careful as Joel was to get the routing of all the lines, fittings, and pipes correct during the re-installation, it looks as if the hard power steering pipe that runs to the front of the coach ended up sitting against an engine mount. After 4000 miles of vibration, it's rubbed through, and my steering gave out just as we were getting parked here in Mobile. Wow, what a chore it was getting squared away with no power assist. And, of course, I've left a few gallons of ATF all over the ground here.
I was hoping to find simply a ruptured hose, which I would run down to the local hose shop to replace. Unfortunately, it looks to be a hard pipe, and I have no idea how to repair this in place. Replacing the whole pipe is out of the question.
This first photo shows the 90-degree sweep bend, resting against an engine mount. I think it's rubbed through where they are touching. Just above the bend is a slit length of silicone hose tie-wrapped around the pipe as a chafe guard -- perhaps it belonged down lower instead.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-A72jkV4lHGg/Trnt73qGGVI/AAAAAAAABAg/42aAgc1xHb4/s800/rub-through.jpg)
In this second photo, at the very top right, you can see the threaded coupler where the pipe joins a compression hydraulic fitting. Again, I have no idea how the coupler is attached. Perhaps it is compression, or perhaps it is brazed on.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-3EFf_kx-0I8/Trnt9Q14GiI/AAAAAAAABAc/ua4OuraPSrE/s800/coupler.jpg)
So here are my questions:
1. Does anyone recognize the coupler? How is it affixed to the hard pipe? Can I cut the pipe back past the break and install a new coupler, getting a longer hose to reach the pump?
2. What other options do I have for repairing the ruptured pipe? It is a high-pressure hydraulic line, so many traditional patching techniques are out.
3. Does anyone know of someone here in Mobile that can repair this? I can probably limp in to a shop if it's not too far.
As always, all suggestions and recommendations are welcome.
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com (http://ourodyssey.blogspot.com)
Is there room in there somewhere to thread that pipe in place? If so you could put a pipe coupling on it and then go to hose.
It's hard to tell from the pics, but it looks like it is a thin wall pipe with a flared fitting on it.
I don't think you will be able to thread it. If it is a flared pipe and fitting, you should be able to cut it back and get a new piece and flare the ends. You might take it apart at the fitting and see what it is.
I'm just taking a stab at this from the pics.
Good luck
Bob, Gary is right -- it's thin wall; not enough meat there to cut threads for a high-pressure application.
Gary -- if I cut the end off the pipe, how would I join a new flared section? Is there a tool or mandrel to flare the cut end?
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com (http://ourodyssey.blogspot.com)
Sean, The last time I lost a hyd. line on the road. I found a forklift repair company who would send a service truck to me. I figured forklifts use hydraulics and break down in the field and some of their lines and hoses are worse to get to than ours. He had most of the materials on his truck, and knew where all the local hyd. shops were for the rest. A little expensive, but I wasn't going any where with out the repair. And it was cheaper than burning up a pump...Cable
Quote from: Sean on November 08, 2011, 08:27:34 PM
Bob, Gary is right -- it's thin wall; not enough meat there to cut threads for a high-pressure application.
Gary -- if I cut the end off the pipe, how would I join a new flared section? Is there a tool or mandrel to flare the cut end?
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com (http://ourodyssey.blogspot.com)
After you cut the end, you would slip the flare nut over the cut end and use a double flare tool to flare it. The tool I have, you would need enough room to be able to hit it with a hammer. Then you would just use a flare coupling to join the two together. Another way you could fix it, is to use the flare nut on the cut end, and use a flare to MIP adapter. Then from the male end you could have Napa make you a short piece of hydraulic line to go to the pump.
WeatherHead and also Boman make all kinds of fittings to do this. You could even use a male end that you would braze on the cut end. If you don't have the tools with you to do the job right and you need to get on the road, you could just use a compression coupling. (not my favorite)
Good luck
A trick my Dad told me they used in WW2 to repair broken hydraulic lines on aircraft in the field. Cut the line off square, clean it well, and wrap the end with heavy wire going back twice the diameter. Solder it to the pipe. Then slip your hydraulic hose over the pipe and use 2 HD hose clamps to secure. Not as pretty as an aeroquip or flare/compression fitting, but simple and it will work and it will get you home where you can make a more proper fix.
Quote from: artvonne on November 08, 2011, 10:33:39 PM
. . . and it will get you home where you can make a more proper fix.
Paul -Sean's Neoplan IS their home - they fulltime.
But a good tip - imagineering at it's best!
FWIW & HTH. . .
;)
Hey, next week we can discuss piston hole welding, in situ. lol
Lots of ways to fix things that dont always have to be the way the factory did them.
Another way might be that you could cut the line farther forward at a place easier to access. That you may be able to slip the bad section out, repair it properly, fix the chaffing problem, and sweat solder the two ends back together using a coupling at the cut point.
What is the pipe made of? If it is copper like a lot of mine on the MCI, you can repair the pipe with Silflos; stronger than copper, requires no flux, available at any HVAC supply house. You need acetylene to heat it hot enough though.
TOM
Sean, it looks to me like an adapter at the top going into the pump. The adapter threads on the top don't look like pipe threads, but it does not matter. The bottom of the adapter is, as someone pointed out, a flare fitting.
If it were me, I would take the adapter into a good hose shop and have them make a hose to fit to the adapter on one end and make the other end coupling mate to the existing hose fitting (probably need an adapter).
I would take the adapter and pipe to a good industrial hydraulic hose distributor (one that is associated with either Parker or Aeroquip) and they should be able to make the hose with no problem. A good hose shop will quickly identify which flare (SAE or JIC) you have.
The issue you will have is getting the hose to bend slightly to clear the engine mount. You may want to look a getting a second adapter to make the hose clear the mount.
Lastly, you will want to make a new sleeve out of a piece of steel braid hose to slip over the new hose to protect it.
If possible take the hose from your bus with you. That way, they can match the pressure rating. Likely you will not be able to do that. In lieu of taking the hose with you, I would have them make the new hose with a hose rated for 2000 PSI to be on the safe side. The best hose for your application is probably Aeroquip AQP which has a stainless steel braid on the outside.
If this is not clear, give me a call: three zero three four seven eight thirty five zero one.
Jim
I am told that you can get high pressure compression fittings made of steel rather than brass. I would look at cutting the hard line back beyond the bend with the damage, put a high pressure compression fitting on and then run up to the pump with flexible line. As noted, a fork lift mobile repair could probably do it for you, a call to a hydraulic store would give you better information. Does the end fitting on the hard line connect to a flex line now? Taking that to the hydraulic store would like them know what fittings you need.
Brian
Sean,they are hard to find and I don't know anyone in that area but if you could give me the O.D of the pipe I may have a Morris coupling that is the easy way to repair those slap it over the hole and tighten the 3 bolts and it will last
good luck
Do they make Dresser fittings for Metric tube- or is it? Would be about 3 1/2 inches long.
If that hose is on the pressure side of the pump-it should be replaced with a hydraulic hose of at least 3,000psi working pressure. Many steering systems (I know mine does) uses a 2,500psi pump. Good Luck Sean, TomC
Tom C, thanks for correcting me. I am not at home, and did not have reference material with me, so I guessed at 2000 PSI (should have said it was a guess.
Trying to repair the tube in some manner would be my last choice. If it is leaking, then its structure is compromised. We are talking about some pretty high pressures at times and a compromised tube makes the system vulnerable to another failure Even with the hose connected to it, it surely must be feeling some bending forces. Replacing it with hose would be my first choice.
Jim
Repairs are done daily on heavy equipment with clamps,silver solider,brazing and compression fittings 2500 psi is nothing compared to some of those systems you guys get too complicated for me sometimes lol.
For me if a welder can reach it braze the sucker up and go on down the road it will last forever,like my friend Joe says why pole vault over a ant hill
good luck
i looked up that morris coupling the Clifford mentioned. that looks to me to be a good way to cover a hole and last forever, or at least until you get somewhere that can do a better job if needed.
driving doesn't sound like a good option, so i'd look into the forklift repair idea.
Make sure you let us know, please, what worked for you. We pulled our engine last spring and (knock on wood) have not issues, but i'm interested in the solution you found.
Clifford, as usual, your solutions are pretty practical. Since you were involved a bunch with construction equipment, I will defer to your approach.
The area where I would be concerned would be where the pipe had a fatigue crack - especially if it was close to the fitting/coupling. This failure was wear, not fatigue and I think brazing it might not be a bad idea.
Like Tom, I looked up the Morris coupling. I assume we are talking about this one:
http://www.morriscoupling.com/pdfs/Compression%20Couplings.pdf (http://www.morriscoupling.com/pdfs/Compression%20Couplings.pdf)
I did not see a pressure rating for this system. I would wonder if it would work because to the tight space and bend.
Jim
Folks, it looks like I have been less than clear about what I need, so let me add a few things.
First off, there is no way to take the pipe out to bring it with me anyplace. It's 25' or so long and runs all the way to the area of the steering box. None of that chase is accessible any longer, at least not without disassembling half the coach. The repair will have to be made in-place, by which I mean squatting in a tight space above the tranny, accessible only by a hatch under the bed. Even cutting the pipe off square is going to be a challenge. Getting a welder or even a brazing torch anywhere near the actual cut is probably impossible.
I would love to just clamp something on it, but the break is in the middle of the bend. As I understand it, these patches such as the Morris coupling Clifford has offered only work on straight sections, so that option is out. Here is my best attempt at a photo of the cut, by lifting the pipe and getting the camera behind it. It's a lateral groove, almost like someone went after it with a triangular file:
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-KXc689yX5tg/TrqmL-ocg9I/AAAAAAAABAw/MW4jC60vzug/s800/rubthrough.jpg)
To be clear, I am not the least bit concerned about the hose or any fittings beyond the hard pipe. I know where the Parker Store is and I am certain that they can make me a longer hose with the correct fittings. My only concern here is how to repair the hard tubing itself.
After a bit of research, it appears there is a type of fitting made for this tubing called a "cut ring fitting", and it's even possible that the fitting on there now is of such a type. If so, it might be reusable. That said, I am not comfortable with my own skill and equipment in this realm to do the work.
As it happens, we are parked at a boat yard, and I had the yard guys come look at it. They don't have fittings or tools for metric pipe (the OD is 22mm) but they have called their forklift service for me. I am hoping they will have what I need and that their technician is small enough to squeeze down in there and do the work.
That said, I am still open to further suggestions, up to and including any sort of temporary repair that would hold enough pressure for long enough to get me to a proper shop.
Thanks, everyone.
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com (http://ourodyssey.blogspot.com)
If you can't get it fixed right there, it looks like you have enough room to cut a piece of hose to slip over the pipe, then you can use a hose clamp right over the damaged area. Screw that down tight and you will be good for a few miles. It should get you to a shop.
If that pipe is like the pressure pipe on my Neoplan, it is flared stainless steel. I had a piece shortened at a hydraulic shop and it is almost impossible to flare that size SS. The factory heats it red hot and then rolls in the flare. If you can find a compression fitting for that pipe, I would install it at the first accessible spot beyond the bend and replace that section with 4,000 or 5,000 psi hose.
I think Lee has the right idea just cut the curve out of it and replace it with a hose.
The forklift repair guy will have a solution I can almost guarantee it!
;D BK ;D
If the line was cut and a section of hose the correct i.d. were slipped onto the line, and secured with three or 4 HD high quality hose clamps, the repair would likely out live you.
The Bus can drive without hydraulic assist, the big issue is damage to the pump. That is easily taken care of by either removing the belt (if its belt driven) or bypassing the line back to the pump.
You could also clamp a piece of hose against the "wound" with a HD hose clamp. As long as you don't crank the wheel aggressively or hang on the stops making the relief valve scream, its never going to reach max psi and blow a ton of fluid out. Its almost zero psi not doing anything and likely only a 100 psi or so in light applications. That kind of temporary fix may leak, but you could manage it.
if it's like my power steering it's way over 1000 psi in light applications at slow speed.
Brian
OK, here is the latest update, and further clarifications.
Forklift guys came out, shrugged and said they could not help me. Neither the Parker Store nor the other hydraulic hose shop in town could help -- no metric fittings.
After calling around I found one shop in town that said they could probably fix it, but I'd have to bring it to them. They are 20 miles away. I am going to try to effect a patch (see below) to make it that far tomorrow.
Quote from: Seayfam on November 09, 2011, 08:42:44 AM
If you can't get it fixed right there, it looks like you have enough room to cut a piece of hose to slip over the pipe, then you can use a hose clamp right over the damaged area. Screw that down tight and you will be good for a few miles. It should get you to a shop.
I hope so. What I was able to source locally was a quality stainless hose clamp with solid (non-perforated) construction and some reinforced clear vinyl 250psi water hose, 19.5mm ID. My plan is to try to clamp right over the break, as you suggest. I'm sure it will leak, but as long as it keeps fluid in the pump the whole time I should be OK. The reservoir looks to be about 2 gallons; I bought five gallons of cheap ATF at Walmart this afternoon.
Quote from: Lee Bradley on November 09, 2011, 09:06:24 AM
If that pipe is like the pressure pipe on my Neoplan, it is flared stainless steel. I had a piece shortened at a hydraulic shop and it is almost impossible to flare that size SS. The factory heats it red hot and then rolls in the flare.
I would guess it to be the same pipe or very similar. Looks to be steel of some kind, anyway.
Quote
If you can find a compression fitting for that pipe, I would install it at the first accessible spot beyond the bend and replace that section with 4,000 or 5,000 psi hose.
Hmm. It is my understanding that "normal" compression-type fittings will not work on straight pipe in high-pressure hydraulic applications. Which is why there exist "cut ring" fittings which actually bite into the pipe. I am wrong about this?
Quote from: Busted Knuckle on November 09, 2011, 09:37:47 AM
I think Lee has the right idea just cut the curve out of it and replace it with a hose.
Well, sure, but the question is how to attach the hose once the pipe is cut and all it has is an unfinished end.
Quote
The forklift repair guy will have a solution I can almost guarantee it!
Good thing you said "almost", because otherwise I'd be making you come down here to help, making good on your guarantee... :)
Quote from: artvonne on November 09, 2011, 10:56:41 AM
If the line was cut and a section of hose the correct i.d. were slipped onto the line, and secured with three or 4 HD high quality hose clamps, the repair would likely out live you.
This does not sound right to me. These systems run in excess of 2000psi -- no way a hose clamp against smooth steel can stand up to that kind of pressure. I would estimate the size of the hole in my system to be perhaps 1/16" by 1/8", and three gallons of fluid emptied out in less than a minute once the hole burst through.
Quote
The Bus can drive without hydraulic assist, the big issue is damage to the pump. That is easily taken care of by either removing the belt (if its belt driven) or bypassing the line back to the pump.
Sure, it can be driven without the assist -- by a gorilla twice as big as me. I weigh 145 soaking wet, and all my weight on one side of the wheel was not enough to crank me into this parking space. I had to back and fill four times to do what would normally take a single shot.
That said, please say more about bypassing the line. My pump is bolted to the engine gear train, so disconnecting it is not in the cards. The break appears to be in the return line to the reservoir from the steering box. Do I simply couple the supply line from the pump directly to the reservoir return and then top off the system?
Quote
You could also clamp a piece of hose against the "wound" with a HD hose clamp. As long as you don't crank the wheel aggressively or hang on the stops making the relief valve scream, its never going to reach max psi and blow a ton of fluid out. Its almost zero psi not doing anything and likely only a 100 psi or so in light applications. That kind of temporary fix may leak, but you could manage it.
Well, this is my plan, as noted above. But I am guessing it is going to leak like a sieve when maneuvering at low speed -- I'm pretty sure the pressures are in the 2000psi range, not 100 as you suggest.
It's pouring rain here now, so I am going to wait until the morning to try to patch the line. I'll top up the reservoir and we'll see if I get any assist backing out of the space without the clamp letting go. If I can make the turn onto the main road, it should be no problem making it to the shop.
Again, I am still open to further suggestions, especially as regards a temporary repair. I am wondering, for example, if completely encasing the pipe in a 1/4" thick layer of JB Weld for an inch on either side of the break would hold pressure long enough to make it 20 miles.
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com (http://ourodyssey.blogspot.com)
Does your return line really have 2000lb pressure? Usually the pressure side will, but the return side won't...Cable
run a self tapping screw into the hole and encase it in some jb weld
I agree with screw /maybe even clamp with hose clamp for extra insurance. in case it works loose.1/4 inch screw should thread rite in.
Quote from: fe2_o3 on November 09, 2011, 02:00:41 PM
Does your return line really have 2000lb pressure? Usually the pressure side will, but the return side won't...Cable
That's a great question. The behavior is sure one of a high-pressure line. When I trace it past the coupler, though, it heads off to the reservoir, not the pump, which is what is making me say that it is the return line.
When the line ruptured, with a loud "bang," I lost the steering assist instantly, not gradually as the fluid bled out. Does that suggest that maybe this is really the supply line, and I'm not understanding the layout correctly?
My system actually has three lines going to the reservoir -- one from this pipe, and two (of differing diameters) from the pump. IIRC, one of the lines to the pump is the reservoir supply and the other is the pressure relief?
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com (http://ourodyssey.blogspot.com)
A return line to a no pressurized reservoir burst with a bang?
They return over 2 gpm depending on the pump @ 20lbs
good luck
I've been working on the assumption this was the pressure line. the return line is basically open to atmosphere, it just dumps in the reservoir.
Brian
20 lbs. sounds a lot more doable than 2000. Can you bypass from res. to steering area via accessible detour?...Cable
Sean, can you give us more information on how the one company wants to fix the leak? Might trigger some thoughts on our part.
If you have an area where you could get to the pipe, you might think about having a thick 4 bolt flange made with the bore that would fit snug over the tubing. You could then have someone solder/braze/weld the flange to the tube (after you have cut off the bend - working on a straight part of the tube). The mating flange could have a coupling welded to that flange that would receive a hose.
If that would work, and you choose silver solder, you would probably want some clearance between the flange and tube so that the solder would flow.
Along the same lines, you might be lucky to find some steel tubing that will slip over the metric tubing and then buy/fabricate a two piece clamp that uses bolts (wide four bolt would be the best) to draw the two halves together.
If enough folks brainstorm this problem I bet we can find an answer.
Jim
If it really is a return line then Gorilla tape would get you to a repair shop. You really need to sort that out because you have a whole lot more options to fix it if its a return.
Again, I am going to say this is a high-pressure part of the system. Evidence:
1. All the components are high-pressure lines.
2. Loud noise when it went.
3. Pumped all the fluid out in less than a minute.
I'm trying to pull down the information on my pump and reservoir now. The pump is a Vickers VTM42 with three ports. The reservoir is a large external affair. There are two lines going from the pump to the reservoir, one line from the pump forward, and one line from the front back to the reservoir. I believe this last line to be the one that ruptured, but maybe I did not do a good job of tracing it.
More when I can figure out the hose routing.
Jim, I have no idea what the shop might do, and I'm not sure they do, either. They need to see it in person first.
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com (http://ourodyssey.blogspot.com)
We need more numbers than VTM42 there are about 20 different models of the VTM42 you may have the controlled flow model no way of knowing without the other numbers on the pump
good luck
Just because it went bang doesnt mean its a pressure line. The bang may have been something in the system that shuddered when the system lost flow. Or it may have been coincidence. So its possible it was already dumping fluid or was already about out when you heard the bang. In any case, if the line goes into the reservoir, and you for sure see a line coming out of the pump, the other line must be a return line.
I have never heard of a steering system that operated continuously at 1000 psi plus. I think Cliffords 20psi for neutral pressure is more the norm, but obviously without more knowledge we just dont know.
To bypass it you only need uncouple fittings near the pump and get a line in that goes from pressure output to reservoir input, gerry rigged, custom hose from NAPA, whatever. I'm sure it steers hard, but any fore or aft movement should help you considerably, some old fashioned see sawing.
Your correct that a hose would want to slip off a straight pipe under high pressure. However, if the pipe is rough, if the hose fits well, if the clamps are heavy duty, if there are enough of them, and if they are reefed down tight enough, it will hold. That was the idea behind wire wrapping the line and soldering the wire to it, to provide a rough surface the hose would hold onto.
Quote from: luvrbus on November 09, 2011, 05:30:03 PM
We need more numbers than VTM42 there are about 20 different models of the VTM42 you may have the controlled flow model no way of knowing without the other numbers on the pump
As long as you asked, it's a VTM42 40 55 15 ME R1 16, which my book says is a delivery of 4gpm on flow of 5.5gpm with 1500 psi pressure, right-hand rotation with threaded fitting.
Oddly, the ME designation is a cast manifold with no bypass, but the plug has been removed and bypass rigged anyway, which is that extra line to the tank. I'm guessing the one I had on there was an MF and when Raz replaced it MCI sent them an ME -- I take it MCI does not use the bypass port -- and it looks like the manifold casting is the same on both models:
http://ourodyssey.blogspot.com/2008/01/our-moose-is-gone.html (http://ourodyssey.blogspot.com/2008/01/our-moose-is-gone.html)
(Long-time members here may remember my original pump blew its seal and dumped gallons of ATF into my oil sump.)
Quote from: artvonne on November 09, 2011, 05:58:48 PM
Just because it went bang doesnt mean its a pressure line. The bang may have been something in the system that shuddered when the system lost flow. Or it may have been coincidence. So its possible it was already dumping fluid or was already about out when you heard the bang. In any case, if the line goes into the reservoir, and you for sure see a line coming out of the pump, the other line must be a return line. ...
Well, that's some reassurance.
I have gone back to my records and photos of the pump and reservoir installation, including the originals of the photos linked in the blog post above. The cut-through is definitely in the line returning from the front of the coach to the reservoir; the pressure port from the pump goes to a different braided hose of smaller diameter. So I am now working on the theory that this is the return line and therefore a lower working pressure, which gives me some confidence that the patch I will rig in the morning will hold.
Now I am hoping that the loud bang was not some other part of the system failing, such as the pump.
So can someone tell me definitively what the maximum pressure would be on the return side of the system? Is it possible that I can repair this with a simple 22mm compression fitting (assuming I can even find one in that size?)
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com (http://ourodyssey.blogspot.com)
Pages 89-95
http://hydraulics.eaton.com/products/pdfs/353.pdf (http://hydraulics.eaton.com/products/pdfs/353.pdf)
http://hydraulics.eaton.com/products/pdfs/m2052s.pdf (http://hydraulics.eaton.com/products/pdfs/m2052s.pdf)
Sean, from what I'm seeing and reading you have a positive displacement pump. It pushes fluid through the pressure line to the steering assy. Then through the return line to the res. The only pressure on the return line is the pressure required to overcome the head pressure and push the fluid up into the res.
I would think, After cleaning with a little Brake Clean. You could maybe use some Permatex or JB Weld in the crack (not enough to get into the line. We don't want that stuff passing through the pump.) Then some Gorilla Tape (as suggested) to hold it in place. I might even put a piece of inner tube or garden hose over it to give the motor mount something else to rub on, and hold it there with a suitable hose clamp. If that holds you can hit the road or go to the hyd. shop...Good luck...Cable
Sean, that pump is a constant flow the tape won't get it 100 psi on the return it has no bypass but the coupling should work for you,try a commercial refrigeration for a emergency repair coupling.
Check with a Cat dealer they use a lot of metric tubing and cut rings on their equipment also,drawback to cut rings they seem to not hold good on old tubing
good luck
Quote from: luvrbus on November 10, 2011, 04:41:43 AM
Sean, that pump is a constant flow the tape won't get it 100 psi on the return it has no bypass ...
Well, mine has a line rigged to the bypass port, which had a pipe plug in it when the pump came from MCI. Here's a photo of the actual pump installation:
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-1gLeXK_IHsM/Trv241zNV9I/AAAAAAAABBU/6V_epeOGjfg/s800/pump.jpg)
This shot gives more of an overview and shows the coupler on the hard pipe that ruptured:
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-I-HTyN0-XTM/Trv249qtBCI/AAAAAAAABBk/Agz1KCtJki4/s800/overview.jpg)
Near as I can see, there is no damage to the supply line. I'm going to try to clamp a hose section over the rupture after it warms up a bit here, and we'll see how it goes. I might also try to get the coupling apart to see if it is a flare, cutting ring, or simple compression type.
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com (http://ourodyssey.blogspot.com)
Quote from: desi arnaz on November 09, 2011, 02:19:16 PM
run a self tapping screw into the hole and encase it in some jb weld
Thats what I am thinking, or quick dry epoxy if you can get it clean enough.
Sean; it is easy for us to arm chair quarter back. I just had a idea. It seams you need a mechanical saddle clamp. Like Clifford said. Your description of hole reminded me of saddles we use to penetrate tubing to tap a line into. why not use one but not add line--cap if necessary.. picture a 2 piece clamp with 4 screws. 2---- 0n each side of pipe with a rubber seal compressed by them against pipe. I have even seen this now for pvc pipe repair. or like adding a line for ice maker from water line in home.. actually one of them might work. Truly do wish you a speedy outcome.
Update:
Things are not always as they appear. My gut feeling that I had a high-pressure side problem was, in fact, correct.
Before tackling anything at all I decided to put a couple gallons of fluid in and, if need be, crank the steering a bit just to make sure I had correctly identified the leak. Before I even started the engine, fluid started running out of a hole in the high-pressure supply line that was in a spot I could not see. The good news here is that this is a standard braided steel hose and I will be on my way shortly to the hose shop to get it replaced. The bad news was that it was a bear to get out without a pit.
The other bad news is that the issue I originally identified will still need to be addressed. It's possible that the groove I spotted has not actually worn all the way through the pipe, but I won't know for sure until I fix the high side and pressurize the system. But one way or another, it will need to be repaired, as it is sure to break open later if it has not already.
I also spotted another couple of rub spots while I was in there, including one on the main supply line from the air compressor. So I will be taking care of those as well while I have the hatch open.
Thanks to everyone for the help, and I will post another update when I get the supply hose back in place.
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com (http://ourodyssey.blogspot.com)
Sean, it appears you have some light at the end of the tunnel. If/when you repair the high pressure leak and find the low side not to be leaking yet, you could possibly fill in the gash with epoxy or jb weld after a vigorous cleaning effort, and wrap a rubber hose around the area for a insulator/protector.
Quote from: opus on November 10, 2011, 08:37:29 AM
Quote from: desi arnaz on November 09, 2011, 02:19:16 PM
run a self tapping screw into the hole and encase it in some jb weld
Thats what I am thinking, or quick dry epoxy if you can get it clean enough.
I dont feel either of those are good ideas. Your risking getting a chunk of something into the system that could damage the pump or steering gear or both. Right now the system is still clean, the object should be to keep it that way as much as possible. While cutting the line might create filings, once open they could be wiped out and cause little risk. Patching the line over with a dressing wont contaminate it either.
Uhhhh, think about bypassing a blood vessel. Why not just run another hydraulic hose temporarily bypassing everything. Get 30 or 40 feet of hose, find the right ends, figure out how to route it through, and your gone, outta there, back on the road. You can then drive wherever, and however far you want or desire to find the right shop to make a proper fix.
Old School: Leather makes a better friction protector than rubber. My opinion only. Bob
Sean - Here's hoping that things are going / went well. Best wishes.
Well, the entire problem turned out to be the high pressure supply hose. That would explain the bang, the immediate loss of steering assist, and the emptying of several gallons of steering fluid in a matter of seconds.
The fairly serious groove in the return pipe has, apparently, not yet worn all the way through. I was misled by the fact that that's where most of the fluid had accumulated after the rupture and that damage was so easy to find.
The Parker guy talked me out of replacing the braided stainless hose with the same stuff, instead selling me their standard high-pressure (4000 psi), high-temperature, DOT-approved hose which appears to have a covering of woven synthetic fiber. It was about a 4' hose and the replacement cost me $63, which is really all I needed to spend on this project.
While I was at Parker, though, I also bought a couple 37° caps and plugs, so the next time I have to take a hose off I don't get so much fluid everywhere. And, surprisingly, they had a 22mm bite-ring pipe union in stock, for $25, and I picked that up as well, so that if and when the return pipe finally gives out, I will have that as an option.
Getting that stupid hose back in place was a back-breaking chore, but once I got everything tightened the steering works fine. I did my best to secure the hose out of harm's way, and put some slit hoses over the other rub points as protection. There was really no way to secure the return pipe properly, so the best I could do was to put a length of silicone hose over the damaged area. At least with the union on board now I know I can fix it later if it ever starts leaking.
A great big thanks to everyone who contributed to this thread -- you guys are the greatest.
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com (http://ourodyssey.blogspot.com)
Quote from: Sean on November 11, 2011, 07:51:12 AMWell, the entire problem turned out to be the high pressure supply hose.
Thanks for the update, Sean. Glad that it was less than $100 (and I'm sorry to hear about the PITA factor while you were dealing with it) - it sounds as if you will not have any more problems with it, considering the spec of the material that they supplied for you. If indeed the return line with the abraded area on it is a no-pressure line, then you stand a good chance of not having any more trouble from it.
Best wishes, BH
YAAAAAAA!!
Always nice to find out a $1000 fix is around a $100. Did Louise take pictures? I know Fran enjoys taking a pic or two with my face full of grease looking out from behind the pumpkin or engine ;D. at least it proves we are more than bus drivers and actually know how to use the occasional wrench.
Glad you're moving again. Happy Thanksgiving!
And to all the other Vets like me, Happy Veteran's Day!
Sean,
Glad to hear that the repair was in fact simpler than it looked to be.
Now back to my original thought that the forklift guy should have been able to fix it no problem. I second that motion and stand my ground! (And if I'd guaranteed it & had to make a service call to Mobile to make good on it. I would have. But once it was discovered that they in fact could have fixed it if they had actually tested and found the actual problem, it would have been one expensive service call! fuel, labor, fresh seafood, wine & etc!)
Now back to the gouged pipe. If you want to avoid it blowing out where it is gouged. Take and clean it and I mean clean it spotless. Then take and scar it (rough it up with a file etc) all around it and around the complete pipe. Get some Marine Tex epoxy & putty http://www.marinetex.com/ (http://www.marinetex.com/) (yer already near marina's aren't you?)
Take the liquid epoxy and mix up a fair amount. Take and apply it all over the gouge and completely around the pipe making a sleeve. Once that cures take the putty and go over it but go 1-2" past the area damaged in both ways and all the way around the pipe again. You will never have to worry about that spot ever again.
;D BK ;D
Sean-glad to here your up and running again and didn't have to drive the bus off the cliff. Would be curious to know, though, how many days of down time have you experienced for mechanical problems in the entire time you've been full timing? Good Luck, TomC
Tom,
That's a good question. Let me start by saying that "down time" is a relative concept. Usually when we end up in the shop, our attitude is "take your time, we have no place to be" -- so long as the shop is willing to let us live aboard. So, for example, even though we just spent over two weeks at Choo Choo Garage, our "regular life" went on, just in Chattanooga rather than someplace else. When your whole house is with you all the time, it really doesn't matter much.
That said, we have had our share of "down time" in the sense of the coach being sidelined someplace until repairs were complete. Probably the three biggest ones were the two times we had the engine in-framed, at PEDCO, and the time we had the engine pulled out to have the end-plate gasket replaced, at Choo Choo. In all three of those cases, the bus was undrivable (as opposed to, say, the wheel bearing work, where we could have opted to clean, pack, and replace the marginal bearing to get someplace critical), each time for a period of about two weeks, for a total of six weeks in seven years.
On top of those, we've had wheel bearings worked on twice, and each time there was a delay while we waited on parts from Europe. Those amounted to an additional four weeks. And we've spent perhaps another three or four weeks at Infinity Coach over the seven years to have conversion items repaired, refreshed, or updated. Mostly the rest of our shop time has ranged from a few hours, for example to get new tires, to perhaps two days, such as to replace the blown steering pump. On average a shop visit is probably a day, usually spending the night before or after the visit at or near the shop. We probably see one or two of these each year, so figure another two weeks, in aggregate.
So let's see, that adds up to a grand total of maybe 15 weeks in seven and a half years, or about two weeks per year of "down time" for our full-time lifestyle. Not counting any of the "projects" that I take care of myself on an ongoing basis -- when you use a coach full time, maintenance is unending.
To put that in perspective, we average 20,000 miles per year. We also average 200-300 hours of generator run time per year, and about the same amount of Webasto run time. Our water pumps, inverter, and fridge have been operating continuously 24/7 for seven years. We've cycled the batteries (on our third set now) over 2,000 times and pumped over 24,000 gallons of water through our fresh system, and another 3,000 gallons or so through our drinking system. We've probably burned around 23,000 gallons of diesel across all devices, and diesel fuel remains our #1 expense. Even so, it is less than we paid in taxes alone when we lived in a condo in California.
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com (http://ourodyssey.blogspot.com)
I would add one thought (if you get this), i would not add epoxy type materials if it were ever my intent to try and roll ( to access the divot) or cut/splice/repair with silver braze, my pipe.
Produces a perfectly controlled, stable flame hot enough to melt commercially weldable metals, glass and ceramics with thread-thin flames up to 6000° F.
http://www.littletorch.com/ (http://www.littletorch.com/)
Quote from: Sean on November 12, 2011, 09:22:59 AM
... it is less than we paid in taxes alone when we lived in a condo in California.
Sums it up quite nicely, like a cherry on a sundae. Glad you are running again!
ps. I only wish I could keep as good of records as you all do :)
Sean-GREAT way to put it, and the figures (which I'm glad you decided to share) are eye opening-especially to those who might be thinking of doing some full timing (like Donna and I) speak for them selves. Thank you for sharing. Good Luck, TomC
Quote from: Sean on November 12, 2011, 09:22:59 AM
probably burned around 23,000 gallons of diesel across all devices, and diesel fuel remains our #1 expense. Even so, it is less than we paid in taxes alone when we lived in a condo in California.
Just how high are property taxes in California? If you averaged 3,000 gallons a year at just $3 a gallon that would be $9,000 a year. I thought my taxes here in MN are high at probably $4,000 for next year.
Do you and Louise consider yourselves to be retired?
Our property taxes in CA were in the neighborhood of $6,000, but CA also has a 9% income tax, and an ad valorem annual tax on motor vehicles, on top of an 8.5% sales tax. Moving our domicile out of California saves us well over $15,000 a year in tax, more than enough to cover our diesel budget.
There are a couple of threads in the archive about choosing a state of domicile for full timers, and how to choose among the seven states with no state income tax.
Yes, we are retired. We typically "work" 3-4 months out of the year on disaster relief, but we are volunteers. The Red Cross covers our expenses when we are deployed, though. And nominally I maintain a consulting practice, but in reality I don't accept much work.
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com (http://ourodyssey.blogspot.com)
What an ordeal. Glad it's over for now. :-)