we've always used a buddy heater when boondocking. We only have 4 toe-kicks for heat, and another in the bay. Our bus A/C and heat panel went out, so now we have no heat going down the road. the panel is a membrane that someone said if they can find a rebuilt, it's $1000. Allows setting the temp so the heat or A/C kicks in. We already had planned on using roof A/C if needed, so it's just the heater i need to fix.
the heat exchanger in the back bay still works, as does the big fans, so i could just put a temp sensor or manual switch in. however, that only takes care of going down the road. For boondocking, those big fans may suck a lot of juice? Even if i put a wabasto type heater in to warm up the water.
so i'm thinking if i just take the big fans and heat exchanger out, put in and use small heat exchangers and fans in the living space and bay, i'll have more back bay space for the pro-heat/wabasto and storage.
i think i know how to heat when the bus is parked with good electric or running down the road. My concern is when i only have 20 amp service or just the genset.
suggestions? what did you do? thanks for any comments or questions.
I have an Iota power supply that runs all the DC in the bus. When we cant plug in I fire up the genset and plug into it, then run the Webasto, circ. pumps and fans off the power supply.
if i have to run the genset to run the wabasto, then there's no need for a wabasto becuase i can just use the electric toe kicks to heat the bus. the genset will power all 5 with no problem. it's just noisy.
i was hoping i wouldn't have to run the gennie. i've got 6 golf cart batteries on the 2000 watt inverter.
I haven't done anything yet, just thinking a lot.
I don't know what you have when you say rear heat exchanger and fans, are you referring to the original OTR heat? Mine has all its original heat and air. No cab air, but the original cab heat is up there and functions. And I'm keeping all of it.
Yes, the main ventilation fan is much larger than we need. They needed high air flow to force air through the inner side walls to blow air on the side glass. With all that ductwork out, the fan in mine blows like a whirlwind, it moves a lot of air. My thinking is to replace the ventilation fan with a 1/2 HP 120 volt motor and probably different blower wheels. Im thinking to redo the side ductwork that ran along the floor in wood, and have registers where it seems appropriate.
I haven't worked out park heat yet, but im thinking of using an electric/gas water heater. Using an inverter and battery bank will null starting surge watts.
Propane Tom Propane.................. works for us,
Although it is possible to use an all electric coach for boondocking, it is a good deal more difficult. Propane furnaces are relatively maintenance free but do produce some noise-- not near as much as a rooftop AC though. Olympic catalytic heaters are also an option if used carefully. I suppose that you could even use one of those on a temporary basis by connecting it to a portable tank with the right hose and regulator. I would prefer that the tank be outside or in a bay though.
The means by which coaches can be heated is usually a combination of sources so the varied uses of the coach can be enjoyed.
A Webasto if used can heat the engine as well as HW and the various heat exchangers located through the coach. It uses diesel so the fuel supply is available. It works when driving, because all the heat exchangers will work, just the burner won't fire once the coolant exceeds about 160 degrees. The downside is the fans for the heat exchangers and the system circulating pump have quite a current draw so for boondocking you need a lot of battery power or a good genset to keep them charged.
Electric toes space heaters are great for taking away the morning chill, and providing some level of heating, but it takes four or five if the coach is going to be kept warm when the temps get into the teens or 20's. They are not useful for when driving down the road, and are only used when you have a good genset or are using someone else's shore power.
Similarly heat pumps such as some Cruise Airs, or roof units will do the job of heating, but only down to about the mid thirties, and then only if the coach has a good genset or shore power.
Propane furnaces are probably the best choice for boondocking, but the coach needs to have propane. They draw the least power and with several located throughout the coach they tend to do a good job. The downside is you need propane, and that they will not heat an engine block for cold winter starts. Like Webasto they can be ducted to heat the water bay.
Most store bought conversions have multiple heat sources because nobody knows how an owner will use the coach so it is not uncommon to see a coach with a Webasto or Aquahot and toe space heaters and heat pumps. That provides the best flexibility.
Tom,
Propane is the best bang for the buck while boon docking, if you leave out the more exotic choices such as wood stoves & white gasoline burners. I have a 40,000 btu propane furnace in the MCI & a smaller battery bank than yours. I can run off the batteries 2 days before I have to fire the genny for a charge. If I have a 15 amp electrical connection, I can stay as long as I have propane. I know some folks don't like propane on a bus but it's still the best option IMHO.
TOM
We just spent a week or so at Choo Choo Garage, followed by two weeks in St. Louis in chilly (not cold) weather. As we ripped out our propane furnace, and are planning to eventually put in a hydronics system as our main heat - we've been using an electric space heater to take the chill off. Our goal is to be a propane-free boondocking thrivable coach.
Problem is, both places only had a 15 amp circuit for us to plug into. And at Choo Choo, we needed to share that with Sean's coach - Odyssey.
Our new 500 aH lithium ion battery bank and Victron 3000w inverter worked wonderfully, as planned, in these situations!
The inverter & batteries were able to boost the shore power we were getting to run the heater, and then when we weren't running it - the inverter resumed topping off the batteries to get them ready again. We stayed way ahead this way, kept warm and managed to not trip any breakers.
So.. that's how we're doing it, for now.
- Cherie
I confess I don't really understand the aversion to propane, but I guess my very sporadic use makes it the easy choice and I can't justify some more evolved solution. I figure it's basically an RV, use the old reliable, cheap as chips, available anywhere RV solutions. For heat, I have a Suburban propane furnace, augmented with space heaters if I'm plugged in.
Brian
Brian -
For us it's a few factors:
1) (and most influential) The previous owner did the propane install in an unsafe way, and it would be a considerable amount of effort to make it safe & efficient anyway. We're at bobglines place right now, ripping out the 48G propane tank (which was installed in the electrical panel bay with no ventilation... *scary*) and putting in a little one in a safer bay for now.
2) We prefer a single fuel source
3) We're ramping up to be self sufficient via electricity, and a huge solar install is an upcoming project. As well as expanding the LiFePO4 battery bank, and will be making everything efficient for running off of that.
As full timers with a lot of electrons anyway, it's just simply the choice we're making for ourselves to standardize on as few energy sources as possible. It's not necessarily an aversion to propane in general, but rather making a different choice than making our current system safe.
For a lot of folks, propane is the right choice for them.
- Cherie
As you say, it's different solutions to different problems. I wouldn't touch a major solar project with a 10 foot pole, and I don't have plans for full-timing so the return on investment stretches into decades (centuries?). And I am all over having a safe install...
Brian
We have 4 x 12 volt radiators with fans on our hydronic system - 2 in the main living area, 1 in the head and 1 in the bedroom. The system has relatively low 12 volt draw while running, certainly less than a comparable capacity forced air system. It also has very simple to implement zone capabilities. We can keep the bedroom cold overnight and warm it up in the morning, shut off the living area but keep the head and bedroom warm, or whatever configuration we happen to want. The bedroom thermostat is right over my head so all I have to do is get one arm out from under the covers to turn up the heat in the morning. Combine that flexibility with the ability to heat the engine and the ability to use waste engine heat while going down the road and I don't understand why anyone would do it any differently. I have no aversion to propane - we used it for cooking and I'd like to have a three way water heater plumbed into the hydronic system so I could use propane as backup heat but there's a lot of things I'd like to have.
There's some problems with the way our hydronic is plumbed, the biggest of which is that we don't have a hot water reservoir. Our burner runs more often and for shorter periods than I'd like it to but so far it hasn't bugged me enough to make me change it. The other problem with our system is that the various loops are plumbed in parallel which wouldn't be a problem if we had excess circulatory pump capacity. We don't have any more than adequate circulating capacity so sometimes the extreme front radiator gets starved particularly when we're depending on engine heat. I've put a booster in that circuit and that helps but its a bandaid rather than a solution.
Tom,me I would get the schematics of a model 05 Eagle and by pass all the electronic bs on the model 15 it couldn't be that hard to do.
The boondockers around here now are using a Fafco hot water solar panel like the one used on pools tied into the Aqua Hot,Pro heat and other systems
I was told they are not that expensive less than 300 bucks for 4ftx20ft panel,I would not waste my time with trying to make electricity from solar the costs far out way the results IMO
good luck
I have a Dickinson diesel heater, 2 espars and a hydronic heater running through the genset and 2 exchangers in the cabin. I also have AC heat pumps that do not work quite as well as the temperature hits minus 30 c. Everything purchased for less than 3k over several years of shopping. The reasons I like the setup is I do not want any holes in the side of the bus for suburban heaters or Hotwater systems etc.
Now to highjack the thread just a wee bit. Technomedia tell me more about these batteries of yours. Did you do 500amp hr at 24volts? where did you get them? happy? and to tie this into the current thread, how long can you run an electric heating system on those batteries?
I have a 20 gal propane tank, Atwood 40,000btu furnace with 4 vents, and keeps the bus nice and warm down to 17 degrees (coldest I've been in) with the furnace running about every 45 minutes (was also windy). The only propane on my bus is the furnace and stove-with a 12vdc solenoid to kill the gas from a switch on the inside of the bus. Am doing the same with my truck-hydronic is too expensive, and maintenance intensive for me. Good Luck, TomC
Viento1 - We're fully documenting our Lithium Ion project here:
http://www.technomadia.com/category/life-on-the-road/technology/lithium-ion/ (http://www.technomadia.com/category/life-on-the-road/technology/lithium-ion/)
All your questions are (or will be shortly) answered there :)
- Cherie
(TechnomAdia - not TechnomEdia)
How about a marine solution?
A Dickinson diesel fired stove or heater?
http://www.dickinsonmarine.com/ (http://www.dickinsonmarine.com/)
Check, in particular, the stoves, but the rest is neat too.
Add a hot water coil for your hot water needs.
For instance, gravity fed, no power required at all. A Bristol/Bering/Pacific is good for a range of 6500 to 16250 BTU.
I acquired a Bering that had been pulled for Quality Assurance testing at a discount.
Here's an idea: The old MCI washroom water tank, behind the mirror in coaches that were equipped, makes a great 3 gallon tank to tuck up into a cupboard structure somewhere, replenished with a small electric pump, the vent returns to the main tank for simple filling and overflow, and then no power until tomorrow at full flow,and 3 days from now if throttled back for freeze protection?
Not enough BTU for comfort in the arctic, but more than enough to keep you alive...
happy coaching!
buswarrior
BW, i like the fuel usage on those stoves, but i just don't want to give up that kind of space. We are too crowded as it is, and we've been reducing by dumping anything that hasn't been used in over a year. (there will be some great sales in Arcadia!!). One of those in the bedroom and another in the main cabin would be excellent. but it's about 8" x 8" at the smallest with a 12" clearance on all sides. i just noticed a perfect cabin spot on the side of the stove on the counter. i just don't think Fran will give it up to have a heater, no matter how good it looks. ;D
Very efficient and an excellent price though.
Those Lithium Ion batteries are nice and also expensive I helped Dan install 4 in his bus the L680 1000 bucks each with shipping nice part they don't weigh anything less than 10 lbs I would guess it was a shock to me lifting one.
The only part I would not like is on his we had to add another alternator the manufactures instructions were no alternator lager than a 95 amp,his were rated in Watt hrs not amp hours
good luck
Quote from: luvrbus on November 08, 2011, 06:21:47 AM
Those Lithium Ion batteries are nice and also expensive I helped Dan install 4 in his bus the L680 1000 bucks each with shipping nice part they don't weigh anything less than 10 lbs I would guess it was a shock to me lifting one.
The only part I would not like is on his we had to add another alternator the manufactures instructions were no alternator lager than a 95 amp
good luck
Do you recall if that was for his starter batteries, or house batteries? I looked up the L680:
http://lithiumpros.com/xs-power-l680-lithium-powerpack/ (http://lithiumpros.com/xs-power-l680-lithium-powerpack/)
And it only holds 11aH - so four together would be 44aH.
Which wouldn't be much for a house system, but seems configured for a starter battery. And yeah, wow quite pricey at $1k per pack.
We went with a 500 aH system for our house system, that weighs in total about 140 lbs. The published price was $3100 ($620 per 100 aH). We went with GBS batteries from Elite Power Solutions (http://elitepowersolutions.com/ (http://elitepowersolutions.com/)) down in Phoenix. We had to assemble the bank ourselves, which was tons of fun. You can buy pre-assembled banks for RV use from other suppliers (who are using Elite Power as their cell source anyway) and pay nearly twice as much if you wish.
LiFePO4 has many advantages (as outlined in the article series I linked to above) - including 80% of that 500 aH is usable without even needing to consider harm to the batteries (but can go down to zero if needed). It's also usable at colder temps, and can take a much higher rate of withdrawal without suffering loss of capacity (making it ideal for things like A/Cs, heaters, microwaves, induction cooktops, starting engines, etc), not needing to be fully charged to keep their longevity, good for thousands of cycles, etc, etc, etc.
We're still testing out the system before making a full declaration if we consider our experiment a success... but for now, we're quite pleased.
- Cherie
It was for starting his series 60 he installed those because he was told heat was not a problem with the Ion but they didn't tell him about the charging his came from Copper State Battery in Phoenix,his house batteries are Surrette 2 volt each those were a small fortune 8 years ago and they are still in warranty,still to rich for me batteries worth as much as his bus lol
good luck
It seems that these battery setups could be worthwhile for fulltimers since the the extended dependability could be worth the cost. For standard RV type users like us, AGM is about as rich as we get. There are definitely home improvements I would consider that I would not consider for the coach.
Has anyone looked at or used nickel iron batteries? Ive read bad stories about Li/Ion, that thermal runaways are rather common from internal shorts and can be quite spectacular (think cell phones).
The battery chemistry we're using, LiFePO4, is NOT the same battery chemistry as you're thinking. The chemistry used in portable electrics that is known for thermal runaway is Lithium-Cobalt-Oxide (LiCoO2) - and can indeed have some dramatic & dangerous effects when overcharged. That chemistry would not be recommended in any way as a house battery system.
LiFePO4 (Lithium Iron Phosphate) is non-combustable and does not have issues with thermal runaway. It's primary application has been for electric vehicle conversions, and that industry is bringing the prices down to be a serious contender for house systems.
But do see the caveat I just replied on the new thread about Lithium: http://www.busconversions.com/bbs/index.php?topic=22186.0 (http://www.busconversions.com/bbs/index.php?topic=22186.0)
We in no way consider even LiFePO4 to be ready for most RVers - it's still very much pioneer territory.
- Cherie
Liberty is using this type of battery for their house bank now...
http://www.libertycoach.com/liberty-life?id=165 (http://www.libertycoach.com/liberty-life?id=165)
Not sure you're ever going to be able to heat appropriately via battery bank though.
My plan is to install a waste motor oil furnace or hot water hear if the coach has hydronic. Can't beet the price of fuel and it's easy to pick up when your home is on wheels :-)
Cheers, Paul.
The only waste oil furnace I have ever seen are quite large. Great idea though, you could run the drip tube from the 8v71 to the furnace.
I've done some shopping around and there are smaller ones but noone has made a webasto sized one yet. Shame really, I'm sure they'd sell like got cakes to truckers. Anyway, I figure the extra btu's could go to the bays. When fuels free, why the hell not?
Another possible heat source is something like the Webesto Air Top heater.
It doesn't take that much cutting with a little diesel to get your motor oil through any oil burning nozzle.
Who has done some measuring as to ratios?
Proper filtration to protect the nozzle is key.
happy coaching!
buswarrior
Waste oil furnace: In the old days :o we had a oil drip heater that we had in our house. It had a ceramic fire box and cup that fuel/oil dripped into. It would take a chimney/small and a fire box. Just putting it out there. Andy /my son drips oil into his wood heating unit in his shop now. And I have diluted used oil with diesel and used in the ceramic cup type burner my self. Just reduce old time design? not high tech. Burn any oil; if thin enough to flow. Smell like french fries? These old systems were non electric without fans and extremely simple. To make the heat warmer you just opened the flow valve up a little--you would have to experiment a little to make sure you didn't over feed the unit. I'm lazy my self ! nicer to just be plugged in. But there are ways to get buy even a miniature pellet stove or wood stove. Bob
Recently I had a friend very strongly recommend that I look into edenpure heaters for my bus http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_03294188000P?mv=rr#specs (http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_03294188000P?mv=rr#specs) It's only 5000 btu for 1500 watts. But he swears he was in a house that was entirely heated with an edenpure and it was comfortable (this unit is said to heat 1000 sq ft). He said the cord was only mildly warm. It IS made in the USA too lol (very hard to find a USA made anything).
Quote from: happycamperbrat on November 09, 2011, 06:38:19 AM
Recently I had a friend very strongly recommend that I look into edenpure heaters for my bus But he swears he was in a house that was entirely heated with an edenpure and it was comfortable (this unit is said to heat 1000 sq ft). He said the cord was only mildly warm. It IS made in the USA too lol (very hard to find a USA made anything).
Theresa, nice thought, but Sean debunked the energy saving stuff about Edenpure. Still a nice product, but it's no more capable than any other 1500 w heater, if i remember his comment correctly. Do a search on Edenpure.
Some of these low energy suggestions are great, like the Dickenson.
At this point, i'm leaning toward the propane furnace just because of the lower electrical, bus is already ducted for hot air heat, i can remove the bus heat exchanger which should make lots of room for a suburban 40K. hydronic and wabasto seem to use too much electic and/or as much diesel as genset (we have 12kw). so if i have to use that much diesel, might as well run the genset and use my toe kicks, although the louder noise might be a showstopper.
We already have propane for stove and frig use.
I removed the bus exchanger on my old bus and was always disappointed. I had no idea how difficult it would be to pump enough btu's to warm that bus driving at night with cold blooded kids.
Quote from: white-eagle on November 09, 2011, 06:57:49 AM
Quote from: happycamperbrat on November 09, 2011, 06:38:19 AM
Recently I had a friend very strongly recommend that I look into edenpure heaters for my bus But he swears he was in a house that was entirely heated with an edenpure and it was comfortable (this unit is said to heat 1000 sq ft). He said the cord was only mildly warm. It IS made in the USA too lol (very hard to find a USA made anything).
Theresa, nice thought, but Sean debunked the energy saving stuff about Edenpure. Still a nice product, but it's no more capable than any other 1500 w heater, if i remember his comment correctly. Do a search on Edenpure.
hmm, the search isnt working I guess. I put "edenpure" in and it said there were no posts, lol I know of at least one haha!!
Teresa, here we go lol we have some friends that full time and they heat their bus with the unit it works their bus is nice and warm in Idaho
http://www.busconversions.com/bbs/index.php?topic=17883.0;all (http://www.busconversions.com/bbs/index.php?topic=17883.0;all)
i did a search for "eden pure" and got this. i've never tried it myself. my son has one, but he didn't ask me first (as usual).
Has anyone mentioned tying the generator coolant into the hydronic system recently?
In a manner of thinking, free heat?
happy coaching!
buswarrior
@buswarrier - I've always liked the idea of that too. Maybe to the engine coolant too for engine preheat but running a block heater from the Benny achieves the same thing I guess.
I always thought of tying the Genny into the Bus cooling system, but arguments against it were the loss of separate redundant cooling systems, that the loss of one system would be the loss of everything. Then here a few weeks back I was attempting to get some antifreeze into the cooling system, and I had to open gate valves to get circulation into the heating system. The cooling system is designed to be able to isolate the heating system from the engine in case of a leak, so blowing a heater core or a line to the front is not going to make the Bus undriveable. Close the valves, check your coolant level and plow on.
Thats really all you need, a few gate or ball valves here and there to isolate, regulate, or re-route coolant flow through the Bus. Many talk of relocating the Genny radiator. If the Genny is tied into the Coach main cooling and HVAC system, and if the cooling system is also used for heating domestic hot water, together with warming the engine thats quite a heat sink and the lil Genny wouldnt need much radiator to shed heat. Still, if general cooling system temps rose high enough running the Genny, the main engine radiators could be used to shed heat. Electric cooling fans there could be used as well. And with the entire cooling and heating system in play, an additional radiator could be located virtually anywhere to shed additional heat if needed.
Quote from: white-eagle on November 09, 2011, 05:23:45 PM
http://www.busconversions.com/bbs/index.php?topic=17883.0;all (http://www.busconversions.com/bbs/index.php?topic=17883.0;all)
i did a search for "eden pure" and got this. i've never tried it myself. my son has one, but he didn't ask me first (as usual).
I spelled eden pure as one word instead of two, maybe that was the difference? Anyway, thank you sooo much for the link! What I got out of it was that the people who actually use one or are in places that are heated with them, say they work great. It is the people who never actually used one who say they wont/cant work. Interesting, because logically I can see that they should not work as advertised but there is no denying real world experience either. Thank you again!
Teresa, a friend of mine has an Eden Pure in his rig and it's always toasty in there. Seems to work pretty good.
Has anyone ever explained how an Edenpure can get more heat out of 1,500 watts of electricity than other heaters? I checked reviews on Amazon and most were negative. I might be interested for my bus if it truly has some revolutionary technology that gets more BTUs out of 1,500 watts.
Natural gas to heat my house is so cheap right now that they only way I could possibly save money with electric heat would be to just heat a single room at a time with electric heat.
Quote from: belfert on November 10, 2011, 05:25:52 PMHas anyone ever explained how an Edenpure can get more heat out of 1,500 watts of electricity than other heaters? (snip)
Brian - 1500 watts is 1500 watts. You could lose some by inefficiency but there's no way to get more than 1500 watts out of 1500 watts.
Same is said about btu's but I know for a fact a gas fired Quartz will give you a lot more heat than the same amount of fuel to produce btu's used for a flame my propane bill has dropped by 1/2 with a Quartz,aren't they converting watts to BTU's or something like that,they work but I ? the 1000 sf
good luck
We have to be sure we're measuring oranges with oranges and apples with apples, when we get into these things.
In the comparisons, are there varying amounts of waste heat going outside somewhere in one, and not the other?
Insulation and other equipment in the coach are huge factors. Every appliance computer television etc is a heat source at their rated consumption, so that 500 watt computer power supply contributes some warmth to the interior of the coach. As does the electric refrigerator...(worth remembering when it comes to figuring our air conditioning too!)
Are we comparing feeling warm versus the space being warm?
traditionally, electric may be more expensive, but there's no waste heat going out a chimney, and a draft drawing cold air in the cracks to replace it, like a flame heat source will do.
Radiant/quartz heat can feel good, though the space isn't being well heated.
Are windows being left cracked open to deal with condensation?
And then we get into the ambient environment that the conclusions are being arrived in.
a cool evening at 42 degrees F in the south, or a frigid evening at -20 degrees F in the north?
1500 watts is a frozen spit in the wind at -20, no matter what it is you choose to use, but 1500 watts may keep up very nicely with the thermal inertia at 42.
Too many variables for folks to get distressed over.
I posted some temp observations with a bunch of electric heaters running in the cold coach, that may help with the thought processes, maybe winter before last?
happy coaching!
buswarrior
Quote from: luvrbus on November 10, 2011, 07:08:26 PM
Same is said about btu's but I know for a fact a gas fired Quartz will give you a lot more heat than the same amount of fuel to produce btu's used for a flame my propane bill has dropped by 1/2 with a Quartz,aren't they converting watts to BTU's or something like that,they work but I ? the 1000 sf
Gas is a whole different story than electricity. Your gas fired quartz heater is probably more efficient than whatever you were using before. With electricity heaters are usually 100% efficient at converting energy to heat. Even the best gas heater is generally no more than 95% efficient and most get less efficient as they age.
just to clarify some things based on BW's comments. I follow the Jack Conrad heat method usually. When it starts getting too cold to heat well, point the compass south and put the tranny in Drive.
We got to Colorado last spring, with the bus heat working so driving was not an issue. When we parked, we had 50A, so the 11 deg F was ok with our 4 toe-kicks.
We are here in KY with 50A, so the 9 deg we expeienced last year won't be an issue this year - until we head South right before Christmas. This year, I suspect we'll have to run the genset and toe kicks until we get south down to Florida, in order to keep the wife warm.
i don't plan on ever being in any negative temp degree areas again. I would hope that a 40k btu propane furnace would be enough to overcome driving down the road. i do plan on trying to keep the driver's area heater from the engine and manual turning it on/off to adjust temp.
But there is, as usual, a lot of methods and suggestions, all good, on here. thanks to all.
I know that it is time to start thinking about heading south when,...the temps start getting down to 40 degrees, and the geese are flying south. :) I know that i have waited a little too long when i see frost!!! ;D
Watts used = results look at the 1800w microwave and induction vs a 1800w hot plate which one is more efficient those heaters do work I still do not believe one would heat a 1000sf but the ones I been around do heat a bus.
They say the heat strips on the roof mounts don't work either but I have had good luck run the fan on low and start with a warm coach they will hold the temperature but if starting with cold air they are useless
good luck
Hey Cliff gotta agree with you on the heat strips. my bus is kinda drafty and 1 heat strip will hold temps comfortable down to about 45, two will hold it down to about 30. any colder than that and I shouldn't even be there. Only time I have ever had all three going is when we come into a cold bus and it's freezing outside. All three will bring the temps up eventually, but the gas does it a lot quicker.
I have two Espar type hot air heaters that use very little power and put out 12000 BTU Ea on diesel Jwrry
i don't know what an espar is. send me a email at whtbus91 at gmail dot com. i might be interested. i need at least one of some kind of heater.
An air heater for a truck bunk is the device in question.
Espar makes them, as does Webasto. And others...
http://www.espar.com/html/products/airheaters.html (http://www.espar.com/html/products/airheaters.html)
http://www.webasto.com/products-and-markets/truck/en/html/7938.html (http://www.webasto.com/products-and-markets/truck/en/html/7938.html)
You need a conversion program for any of the European spec sheets. I use a little converter program called versaverter for these tasks: http://www.pawprint.net/vv/ (http://www.pawprint.net/vv/)
With their various BTU ratings, the air heaters can be part of an efficient, layered, approach to heating a coach conversion.
For instance, a Dickinson stove and two of the bigger bunk heaters would make a fine arsenal against the cold in many bus conversions.
Run one, two, or three of them in various combinations, as conditions of temperature, fuel and electric consumption dictate?
happy coaching!
buswarrior
We've been experiencing 20*F weather with it barely hitting 32*F during the day, and I refilled my propane tank yesterday. With 3 LP Catilytic heaters (only 2 being used daily) and one 30" baseboard in the bedroom, it took 6.7 US gals of propane after exactly 3 weeks to the day since the last fill. That's 'six-point-seven'. The 2 cats seem to keep the bus at 75*F on low during the day. We only leave one on low at night in the kitchen along with the baseboard in the BR. In the morning, the temp will be around 60*F so we kick on all three for about an hour to bring everything back up to speed. The bus is well insulated top and bottom, but the windows are stock single pane, including 2 skylights. If you put your face near them, you can feel the cold through them. To say we're pleased with the catilytic heaters would be an understatement. I haven't heard of a quieter or more efficient way to heat a bus yet, unless of course you're moving down the road and using the otr heat.
FWIW-we keep 3 vents open all the time for circulation and don't have any moisture or condensation problems. Of course, the outside air is really dry here, even with the snow on the ground.
Will
Tom the problem with a forced air heater - doesn't matter whether it is an Espar, Webasto or Brand X - is that you will need some way to put the heat where you need it, typically with ducting. That's gonna be a major PITA to install c/w running some Pex for a hydronic system. If you're starting from scratch then you could put the ducting in along with the walls and the benefit would be dryer heat but if you're talking about retrofitting an existing conversion then it seems to me that hydronic is the only way to go.
All the Buses ive seen, GMC, Flxible, MCI, the OTR heat/AC, they push the air into a box running along the bottom of the walls, where its forced through the wall panels to exit along venting at the bottom of the glass.
I removed all of the original ducting and inner wall panels out of my MC5B. My plan is to build have thicker, better insulated outer walls, and run a heat run the length of the bus made of wood, down both sides, simular to what existed originally, but with controllable heat outlet vents along the floor where it makes the most sense. Half the side glass will be non existent, and the other half can be heavily shaded/covered, so heat loss can be greatly reduced.
PP - When all the heaters are cranked on, you're not getting any of those old-time ventless sensations?
Gently burning eyes, sort of a light stuffy sensation, and whatnot?
Ted
Quote from: TedsBUSted on November 20, 2011, 05:06:52 PM
PP - When all the heaters are cranked on, you're not getting any of those old-time ventless sensations?
Gently burning eyes, sort of a light stuffy sensation, and whatnot?
Ted
Ted, I'm happy to report that we haven't felt any side effects from the heaters except for a nice warm feeling. I spend my days outside, usually up in the mountains near here, but the wife is home most days couped up inside. She is extremely sensitive to any kind of fumes, especially diesel exhaust. If there was a problem with the cat heaters, she would have let me know or I would have seen a reaction in her. I honestly believe the key is in the venting. They recommend something like 4 sq in per unit, we have at least 20 sq in per, excluding the bathroom unit. That only has 16 sq in the lid. (mushroom vent). But the bathroom unit is rarely used because you have to leave the door shut when it's on. We've had a lot of RVs in our life together, and excluding the wood stove in our skoolie, we've never been happy with anything else. Everything that blows air is either noisey or creates drafts or just plain sucks up fuel, whether elect or gas. That's just our opinion. It's based on real life experiences and we're sticking to it ;D
Will and Wife
pp - Do you mind sharing the heaters' make/model?
Thanks,
Ted
Ted,
I hope we're not hijacking this thread.
Quote from: TedsBUSted on November 21, 2011, 05:56:42 AM
pp - Do you mind sharing the heaters' make/model?
Thanks,
Ted
When we purchased the bus a little over 5 years ago (we had a fiver before that and have been fulltime RVers for more than 14 years) it had Platinum Cat heaters installed complete with venting and thermostats. We loved the efficiency of them, but alas, they wore out (26 yrs old) and I couldn't patch them back together anymore without new parts. Getting new ones isn't an option, though I can't understand why no one has started manufacturing them again. So last year, after doing lots of research, we decided the best approach both asthetically and efficiently was to replace the Plat Cats with another catilytic that fit the same cutouts (close enough anyway). We settled on Olympian Waves-2 size #6 and 1 size #3(bathroom). They connected to the existing gas lines and fit over the original cutouts with little modifications. We use the existing 2" pipe exhaust vents in the rear for feeding them fresh air in addition to the three open roof vents. We had to add the Maxair vent cover to keep rain and such out of the kitchen vent because it's just your standard crank open style with fan, BTW. The bedroom is a T-5 fan assembly that doesn't seal unless you manually attach the inside cover. The only drawback is that they aren't thermostatically controlled like the Plat Cats. But they're a lot quieter than the Plats because they don't have an exhaust fan. Our windows are not full of condensation unless the wife is cooking spaghetti or some such. And the fuel consumption I stated in my other post included cooking (we heat a lot of water for tea) and using the oven twice (before it quit). We have 2 CO detectors, one in the bedroom by our heads and one in the hallway near the floor. The Olympians are supposed to shut down in the event of low Oxygen or flameout, but redundancy is always good.
Hope this helps, Will
i don't think it's hijacking if we are still talking about heat sources for boondocking.
We had a cat heater, but took it out when we had to re-do the walls and floor a couple years ago. took way too much wall space which we wanted for chairs and such. Had to keep everything away and it was just too tough to keep it away from chairs and tables.
i'm going to look at the models you mentioned, in case they would work
They work into our floor plan because we have a side hallway instead of down the center of the bus. The kitchen has an attached island that allows that one to be mounted facing into the lounge while the hall one is mounted on the wall that comes out at the foot of the bed. When you walk down the hall you walk right toward it just like when you walk from the front of the bus toward the rear you walk right toward the kitchen unit. The only one that has something in front of it is the bathroom unit and that is only when the door is open against the wall that it is mounted on. You learn not to leave the door open when the heater is on. The cat that we replaced in the bathroom had a switch mounted on the door that shut off the gas supply when the door opened too far and I might try installing that valve inline at some point since the DC supply and switch are already installed. Hope this helps, Will