1996 MCI DL3 Series 60 B500R . Standard MCI dash toggle turns retarder on/off. Lever to my left next to the tranny keypad has about 5 "detent" positions. WIth TR turned on and the lever pushed to the forwardmost position, I get retarder engagement on brake pedal application only. Or , I can drive keeping the lever in the next position back and get retarder engagement upon lifting off the throttle. SO when I am coasting down a grade or on level road retarder engages without brake application when I lift off throttle. Maybe a nice concept for metro travel but I like to be more active with the TR lever and work it back and forth as tranny temp gauge tolerates. .....Current problem is I have lost the ablilty to have that first position stick in place. The one that gives me no retard on coasting. The lever ? may have come out of adjustment, it acts like it's the next rearward position, that gives me retard ever time I lift off throttle. I can push the lever forward to act like the old first postion but It won't stay put. SO if I want to coast down a long grade and build some speed for the next hill, I have to use my left hand and hold the lever forward in the first postion.
Problem here is ^Tranny temps that are unnecessary, which will lead to ^ water temps. And wasting fuel and making me drive one handed.
I will check tranny for codes, but is there a basic mechanical adjustment under the plastic console to "zero" the toggle lever? thanks
All I can say is if it were my B500 transmission I would not want to leave the retarder in the on position when not using it!
Our local allison tech told us even when you think it's not on it is and it causes higher trans temps and will fry your tranny if done much! (he said he didn't mind making repairing it, but would rather say me the $ up front and making his $ off me honestly!)
Now let me tell everybody I don't know how accurate it is, but I do as he recommends.
;D BK ;D
I have heard it suggested by many who have these retarders that the temp probe is located directly in the path of fluid exiting the main body of the trans at the hottest possible point that the fluid could be. That the actual temp of the fluid reentering the valve body is very much cooler than what the gauge is showing and that all is really OK
Has anyone here know of any of these trans that was burned up by using a retarder and absolutely know it for sure to be the reason for the failure
I have been told more than once that the retarders cause overheating.
I know a guy that had several Van Hools that had constant transmission problems while still under warranty and Allison told him that it was because the drivers were leaving the retarders on and just lifting their foot off the accelerator to activate them.
He told them to unhook them so they couldn't be left on.
So they pulled the fuses. And he never had another problem at all with the transmissions until he traded them off! (this guy buys 3-4 new coaches runs them until the warranty runs out and trades them off, keeping new under warranty buses all the time. And is currently running Setra's!)
Also our dearly departed Sammy told me on more than one occasion that the retarders were killers. (said a transit drivers best braking tools & the mechanics worst enemies are retarders and curbs!)
My Allison shop tells me it's a fact that his shop replaces many retarder equipped transmissions than non-retarder ones.
I'm sure Clifford can get us the straight scoop from Cole or one of his other Allison guru's!
;D BK ;D
Allison can reprogram the transmission module so that the retarder only comes on with brake apllication. they can also program how much retarder you get. Gerry
You can have 6 levels of modulation with the B500 but only 3 if tied to the service brake, and to answer his question about adjustment of the lever I cannot find any adjustment in the book
good luck
What a stupid way to change the way we assist braking when the jake brake is still alive and well.
I have 5 or 6 levels of modulation using the lever only ( no brake pedal actuation). I'll go count later and report back. I guess I've now learned that if my hand is off the the lever and I use brake pedal only, the more I press the pedal the more retard I get. Obviously if the dash switch for TR is off I get NO retard with pedal or the lever. SO if I call the lever positions 0-1-2-3-4-5 , my current problem is I have lost the 0 position, so the retarder acts like I am in the 1 position all the time. Which is how some people drive. I had a 25 yr fulltime MCI veteran driver, drive me somewhere once, and she kept the lever in 1 or 2 position all the time. When I questioned her ,she said that what she's done for years. I always keep it in 0 position and use it when I want it or get retard with brake pedal actuation. So back to my lever, I can gently PUSH it forward to act like it's in the 0 position so I can "coast" when I want to without retard. SO my old 0 position is now my 1 position. It seems like there must be a simple adjustment to the rear of the lever( some type of gimble assembly). I called my bus guru besides you guys and he says one of his 6 buses recently started doing the same thing. ANyone have a microfiche blow up of that thing? .....thanks again.
Dirtball. Compare the retarder to a jake.
Based on your experience if you could get the retarder to function correctly as you describe,do you think you get more performance from it or a Jake brake or less. Which would you rather have everything considered?
The retarder is in and paid for, just out of adjustment I hope. With me driving the bus I can keep it out of the redline, sometimes shutting off the bus-air in hot weather on a long grade. As owner/driver I watch the gauges, unlike the hired guns. Search my old posts , I had a thread about adding a Jake to the TR and having both. The mechanic who had done that mod before, moved away. If I had to pick one I'd take the Jake. I wouldn't want to be running down big mountain roads in August with the TR. I think they are more of a 55 passenger flat turnpike aid , that is silent and saves brakes and doesn't wake the passengers. The thought of having both was exciting. They should make a ( probably already do) , TR , that is a Regenerative battery charger for a hybrid bus. Why waste all that energy heating your tranny fluid, mine as well make some amperage with it.
If I was you I would try to pick up a set of JAKES for you Series 60. My father retired from Denvers RTD and drove there latest MCI DL's and the Allisons were alway getting replaced. I will ask him about the temperatures that the usually see coming down I-70 into Denver. They believed that rebuilding Allisons vs brakes were a better alternative. The perfect system would be Jakes and a retarder. Using the retarder as the 3rd stage.
Quote from: Joe Camper on October 09, 2011, 05:52:26 AM
What a stupid way to change the way we assist braking when the jake brake is still alive and well.
There are many areas were engine brakes are prohibited by ordinance due to the noise. I doubt engine brakes would be a very good idea on an a bus used in transit service either due to the noise.
I80 going west in Salt Lake City prohibits engine brakes on a long downgrade coming into the metro area. I use my Jake anyhow rather than risk overheating my service brakes. I always smell burning brakes from other heavy vehicles on that downgrade. One time the guys in the bus were yelling at me because they thought I was overheating the brakes and I hadn't even touched the brakes in over a minute. (It was another vehicle.)
With the risk of disagreement and in the name of the discussion and complete disclosure of info..........a differing view.
A good friend sent me this (this is with an XLII and possibly the prevos are wired differently but the temps sould be comparable)
here is what he sent me
I go to that site every day and I don't agree that a retarder is on if the handle is in the 0 position,the manual states that it will become activated with brake application if the dash switch is on,I have never seen temps over 224 and that was with a trailer and I was at 71,000 LBS. down Black Mountain.
Joe your friend didn't use much retardation if he only saw 224 those babies will get to 300 in a hurry with full retardation on long grades heat depends on the level used.
If he was using the pedal no way can he have full retardation unless he applies full brake pressure
Allison does not want Jakes and the retarder used simultaneously that is the reason not to many buses with retarders have Jakes
good luck
Dirtball, I suspect that your retarder joystick may be broken.
When set up as originally intended, I prefer the retarder.
More steps than Jake, more "stopping" power, and no noise.
Coupled with appropriate use of the downshift button on the transmission keypad.
The cooling fans and the water pump run at engine speed....
Full retarder downhill while the engine is loafing in 5th or 6th gear, depending on programming....
Well, who has the marshmallows?
I do not agree with leaving the retarder, or the jake, turned on so it will engage with a simple lift throttle.
Activates expensive machinery when it may not be required, hurts fuel economy, encourages the accelerator to be left applied longer than it should for defensive driving reasons to inhibit the deceleration, and gives a poor quality ride to the passengers.
And makes unnecessary heat in a retarder equipped transmission.
happy coaching!
buswarrior
My Dad just emailed me.. Here is what he said..
NOT probably 275F! On hot days (90-95F) using retarder downshift from 6 to 5th to 4th (proper way)
and 2 clicks on the retarder after the downshift I've see the temp go to +375F.
BusWarrier, I do what you say, downshifting at times. My tranny seems to be pretty good at doing this itself. Upon braking and scrubbing off speed it will start downshifting on its own. I hope it's just the joystick. I'll start exploring access to the underside of the stick. I am not going to add the Jake at this time, I don't get to use the bus enough and the mechanic who had recommended it has moved away. With the TR working properly, I get by here in Pennsylvania. I have changed the tranny fluid twice and coach only has 45,000 original miles. It is a Custom Coach conversion from 1997.
Dirtball,
Changed the fluid twice already and the coach only has 45,000 on it?
Wow that's quite excessive. With normal ATF in them it's recommended @ 30,000 and Transynd (or equivalent) it's 90-100,000 miles between service.
We use transynd and change the filters while changing fluid and once in between.
FWIW
;D BK ;D
I have an Allison in my bus and I have never seen temperatures above 225 coming down mountains and I rarely use the brakes,I see a lot of comments by those that have heard of very high temperatures from others,but not their actual experience.
Finally going to the shop next week to hook the Allison up to the laptop. Tech says it can be just a bad joystick- which may even be able be adjusted back to Normal operation, or it more frequently is a bad solenoid in the tranny. Solenoid requires dropping pan from tranny. I will post an update in a week or so. My left hand has been getting tired holding the joystick forward when I am coasting.
My B500 behind a series 60 will reach 350 degrees on a warm day with the retarder,I don't use it much the heat scares me on a B500 so I use the Jakes they work better anyways
Documented? Dunno about that. PEM if you want to. Involved a 42,000# Type One fire engine coming down (North bound) Eye Five South of Bakersfield CA at 75 mph with the tranny retarder in the max position.
Infamous Ridge Route. Non happy combination of non fortunate events. Taxpayer job.
Never touched the brakes. Roasted the tranny and other stuff. Big repair bill. The driver never knew better. Lack of training. Stupid also. Had no idea all that heat had to go somewhere. Did not care either.
My setup with the ISM500 & Allison 4000 with retarder, also have the temp readout on both the trans sump and retarder. Using the Transynd (?) am told max retarder temp s 300 and sump 250. No Idea what is correct, am told via the Allison Lube Engneer (retired)
With practice can control temp, keep around 220 for retarder and good control braking effect.
My coach is 30,000 lb when no toad. Yes you can run the temp way up real quick.
A lot more effective than a 8V-92 Jake setup, no Idea about the four stroke setups.
Dave M
My retarder on our new to us 102c3 was stuck on and I couldn't figure out why I kept overheating. Jumped out of the bus on the side of the road and my buddy pointed to the smoking tranny pan. Gunned it with laser temp and it was 290 or so. Climbed into engine bay and spun the air regulator for the solenoid all the way to 0 psi. Problem solved.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I know this isn't the same as driving in the mountains, but most all city buses have retarders. I have driven buses with 8V71, 8V92, series 50 and series 60 with jake brakes. None of these had as much power holding back as a retarder.
I drive a city bus at Disney World with a retarder and have not had any problem with the transmission. Some of the buses have the retarder come on when you take your foot off the throttle and some when you put the brakes on. These buses stop an go all day every day and every stop the retarder is on. The retarder shouldn't be putting out any more heat coming down than the engine did going up the hill.
Jack
The B 500 won't even sound the alarm till temperatures are 275 degrees in the retarder or 330 degrees in the sump.
Allison says 350 degrees intermittent use won't hurt the transmission with synthetic oil but if the alarm sounds it's best to pull over for a cool down,the B 500 is a transmission for buses only they are different
The price of a B500 I'll go with Jake's my 60 series has fanatic Jake's and the B500 does a good job controlling them so the retarder is just there for me.The B 500 in the bus is low miles John 316 and his family paid somewhere around 14 grand in Fl for the transmission and I want it to last so I don't use the retarder
FWIW, our transmission folks tell us that the retarders in our B400 transmissions are designed for stop and go in our normal transit service around town. They seem to work good for that as we rarely have any trouble with them. However, they have cautioned us not to use them for coming down long, continous mountain passes, as they were not designed for that type service and will overheat. Apparently the fluid is not sent to the transmission cooler as long as the retarder is activated (being used).
Quote from: luvrbus on August 20, 2015, 06:53:36 AM
The price of a B500 I'll go with Jake's my 60 series has fanatic Jake's and the B500 does a good job controlling them so the retarder is just there for me.The B 500 in the bus is low miles John 316 and his family paid somewhere around 14 grand in Fl for the transmission and I want it to last so I don't use the retarder
Hey Clifford. We would use the retarder momentarily in heavy traffic. If we needed that bus to stop on a dime, we would have the retarder switch on - plus we always ran with the jakes on. As soon as we used the retarder, we shut if off, and let things cool back down. I always got concerned when I saw the temp starting to rise. I never let it get over 300.
hello; FYI to answer one statement: the retarder fluid always goes thru the cooler, that is the basic circulation path. When the retarder is activated via the air cylinder the extra fluid is pushed into the retarder cavity where the fluid is absorbing the energy from the driveshaft creating heat. The temp will go up however if your engine has adequate radiator capacity the temperature will go down as the heat is dissipated thru the bus radiators.
I WOULD SUGGEST YOU BUY 2 PUBLICATIONS BY ALLISON, ONE IS B??? PRINCIPLES OF OPERATION AND THE OTHER IS THE SERVICE MANUAL. THE OPERATORS MANUAL IS ANOTHER USEFUL GUIDE. THESE USED TO BE FREE BUT PROBABLY NOT NOW. A PARTS MANUAL GIVES YOU PICTURES OF THE PARTS INVOLVED AS LONG AS YOU CAN DECIPHER ALL THE NUMBERS.
My retarder went on the fritz this spring. The solenoid for the retarder was showing a short. I changed the relay and as it turned out the connector was the actual culprit. I did not need to get into the actual relay cavity because the connector was shorted out.. So the lesson is to do your troubleshooting up front as completely as you can. Wiring and connectors are one major source of problems according to some of my sources so inspect the wiring and connectors carefully.
Sammy told me once when I was trying to decide what to do with the b400R. he said that you do not use a jake with a retarder because the bus will stop so quick as to put you thru the windshield.. his words not mine..I had the option of adding the jake to the L10 but declined in favor of the retarder.
I have a B400 with an L10 . I transplanted the L10 B400R complete with all accessories to my mic 7. The motor worked before and after. The radiator capacity is the same as an 871 so I have extra cooling capacity.
I put a temp sensor on the input to the cooler; oil side (it is on the outside and covered). My normal temperature is around 160 .when going down long hills I have seen the temp go to about 220 . It never stays up long and is normally at 160.
During our summer trip to canada the average temp went down esp. around lake superior where the lake temp is 41 degrees and the average air temp is in the 60s..
my bus was featured in may 2011 , the complete story and pix are there if anyone is interested.
WE try to take a 2 month trip every year. This year was 7000 miles and 2 years ago 8000. miles.
So far with the L10 we have about 40 thousand miles and average 7.4.Mpg. I really like the B400R tranny.
i did not have any experience driving big rigs ..I learned by doing and trying to get advice from others. I have a total of 90 k miles of driving time on this bus now.
Ted Keating sales in NC deals in allison parts and will help with some of your questions....
The actual problem here with the retarder joystick can be answered with the computer hooked to the transmission and cycling the stick. the computer will show what the stick is doing. you can measure the resistance but the computer is the best source because it shows what the computer is seeing.
SO everyone has an opinion and this is mine. flame out if you want and I will do what i did before.. retire for a few years...
Regards and happy bussing.
mike
Only a small portion of the oil goes through the cooler with a retarder depending on the level ,the valve traps the oil in the retarder cavity working against the paddle wheel that is what gives you the retarding affect.
I haven't seen a modern bus manufactured in the last 5 years that didn't have a integrated Jake on the engine with or without the retarder and most retarders no longer use the joystick all the casino buses here have both Jakes and a retarder MCI,Prevost or Vanhools
They use the retarder in town and the Jakes coming down from the pass on Az 68 from Kingman to Laughlin a 8 mile 6 % decent
Hello
I use my retarder in hills because it is what I have. I try to keep to the posted speed early on and if possible let the retarder slow me down 5 miles under posted then let off to give it a rest.
the temperature lags behind a bit. but usually only takes a few minutes to get back to normal. I do have a retarder foot switch to activate the retarder separately or the retarder will come on with the brake pedal.
A question i have is when it rains do you turn the retarder off? the literature suggests you turn it off but why? Will the bus go into a skid if the retarder comes on with a wet road?
I stand corrected.... on the other stuff..
Regards mike
Retarders or exhaust brakes where about the only option the L 10 mechanical engine had Cummins didn't want Jakes on the L-10, I have a terrible time rounding up parts from a M-11 to install Jakes on the L-10 and try my best to talk the L-10 owners out of it.FWIW Jake says not to use their Jake's in wet, rain,snow or icy conditions when present on roads
FWIW, we do not switch off our retarders when it rains. This is in regular transit service. The switch to turn them off is not accessible to the driver while in the driver seat. If they are switched off, there is a small indicator light outside the bus that will activate, telling supervisory personnel (and shop) the retarder is switched off.
None of our MCI fleet (oldest are 2003's) have Jakes on the 12.7 Series 60. The B-500's all have retarders. In our application, everything is mostly flat here.
You cannot even order a DD13,DD15,DD16 or any of the Cummins ISX engines without a Jake now they are integrated into the engine same with the Volvo engine it must be a DOT thing
I avoid retarder application in the rain if the bus is not pointed straight or the road is off camber. Retarder or Jake application changes your brake bias. I have never rotated (oversteered) my bus. I have seen the European training video with bus drivers practicing oversteer correction on a wet track. I have spun street cars, open and closed wheel race cars, but prefer to busdrive within the limits of adhesion. My B500R retards to the second position (lets call it 20%) with brake application. I do not turn the retarder switch to OFF in the rain- I am OK with the 20% , I do avoid pulling the lever back to 60-100%. In dry conditions, I use the retarder constantly . I do watch my tranny temp gauge and pulse the retarder as needed. I have yet to sound the overtemp alarm, but do pin the needle in the red at times.
Does anyone know why , when I run the bus air, as soon as it is turned on, the coolant temp and tranny temps jump higher? As soon as the AC is turned off they jump back to cooler numbers .
RETARDER IS REPAIRED : not the solenoid, not the lever, not the cable........it was the little dust boot at the base of the retarder joystick. It was just stiff from being old and because it was tight to the base flange it pulled the joystick back. The fix put a smile on the shop guys face. Sounds like a first for them and they have 20 plus D models of my era with retarders. Three years of driving with one hand is over, I couldn't coast without pushing the lever forward. Pass the word to anyone you know with that joystick.