I'm considering using my bus to haul a group of Boy Scouts from Minneapolis to Philmont Scout Ranch in New Mexico next summer. Has anyone done this before? The Guide to Safe Scouting really doesn't seem to cover motorhomes.
My main concern is the section that says something about vehicles over 10,000lbs requiring drivers to have CDLs even though not commercial. A CDL requirement would kill this plan for sure.
The Scouts only allow travel time of 10 hours a day no matter how many drivers which makes it difficult to do the drive in two days. It would take right at 20 hours if the bus averaged 60 MPH. We would like to be at Philmont the night before even though you don't have to arrive until lunch time. The group leaders have even considered having parents drive to the Iowa border before meeting as a group, but that seems silly to me.
I would travel with, but I would fly home in between as I have no interest in the actual trip.
Suggest you contact your insurance agent and ask how they feel about that idea. I suspect they'll change your mind about it.
Also, I believe if you start asking questions of the state, you'll find that type of usage is considered commercial and will require a CDL, among other commercial operations
issues. I don't know that for sure, but I think the state patrol would make a case and you'd have to disprove it in court. If you got stopped and they disagree with you,
you will effectively be stopped and not allowed to continue on. You'd then have to hire a commercial bus to deliver the troop, and your bus would be shut down until
you comply with their requirements.
Personally, I don't think it's a good idea.
Probably not a good idea with today's regulations. Worse case if something bad happened. Maybe BK will show up and help you with an answer. He gets to haul cheerleaders and bikini swim team groups around but he has the endorsements.....
The number of youth and adults is well below the number at which commercial licensing is required. I've had as many friends along in the bus for a trip to a rocket launch. I don't know how it would be any different than a 12 passenger van.
At this point, I'm not sure if Boy Scout rules would allow use of a motorhome. It seems strange they would allow packing up to 12 people in a 12 passenger van, but a motorhome would not be allowed. I doubt this will happen, but we'll see where it goes.
IF your getting paid its commercial.
You must have a CDL and be commercial
Real simple
I could be wrong but I don't think so
Kind of stinks knowing you want to help.
Lonnie
In my younger days, I'd have done it.
But if something goes wrong, your insurance will disown you, and then you have two fights to the bankruptcy on your hands.
A rental van would be a safer bet, and keep'r moving!
As for the 10 hours and driving to the border, you wouldn't believe the silly things that have been done to circumvent regulations in the transportation industry. Cab over trucks come to mind....
happy coaching!
buswarrior
Brian, I used my bus in the Angel Bus network when Bill Connor was still alive my insurance co did not have a problem with me transporting people they just told me to keep it under 15 me included
good luck
We certainly can speculate, but it seems the best thing to do is contact your insurance company and highway patrol. If they say it's fine, do your best to get it in writing. That should not be a problem with the insurance. For the highway patrol, you may have to make do with a photocopy of the appropriate law and the officers name.
Brian I personally have no objections to YOU doing it.
But I suspect if any local operators heard of it they would be highly against it.
I have bid numerous trips out to Philmont and never gotten the first one. (I'd love to go just once!)
As far as the ins & DOT go all I can say is your @ the mercy of the parents and the state and god should something bad happen! (and we all pray it doesn't)
I'd say be sure and ask the insurance company and even have a lawyer draw up a liability disclaimer showing that you are NOT doing this for hire and releasing you from ANY damages not resulting from your direct negligence! Have each parent sign one and enjoy the trip.
JMHO
;D BK ;D
Quote from: belfert on September 14, 2011, 07:16:08 PM
At this point, I'm not sure if Boy Scout rules would allow use of a motorhome. It seems strange they would allow packing up to 12 people in a 12 passenger van, but a motorhome would not be allowed.
A 12 passenger van will have proper seating for 12 passengers. A motorhome almost certainly won't
A friend once arranged (before asking me) for me to transport a group of other friends in my bus, and got a bit upset when I told her that there was no way it was going to happen. For one thing it was a Construction and Use offense as my bus was an empty shell at the time ("They won't mind sitting on the floor" she said), but more importantly you're in serious licence-losing territory if you get stopped when carrying more than 10 passengers without the appropriate license endorsement here.
In your case, if it is legal and the insurance company are happy etc, I would also go the extra step of getting the parents or guardians of each child to sign a waiver in your benefit.
Jeremy
I've had many people travel as guests in my coach - And many have tried to reimburse me for time, fuel etc. - I politely reject their gracious offers and remind them their my guests and 'my insurance company' would consider that compensation - I also have offered my bus at charity auctions with the caveat that they are invited guests, not paying customers (their donation goes directly to the charity involved) - more than once I've had rowdy 'guests' claim they 'paid for the bus' and I must remind them they are guests - I don't know how my insurance company would deal with a claim or what a Personal Injury Attorney would attempt to do to me, but I always maintain my right to dis-invite those who do not obey/understand the rules - In this world I'm not sure I'm covered but I do the best I can - FWIW
Check with the scoutmaster a tour permit must be filed to do a outing like this through district their local council whatever at that point bsa takes over the liability for personal injury but you better make sure Richard
The Boy Scouts have changed from the tour permit to the tour plan. I haven't filled out a tour permit in years since they started to not require them if the camp was owned by the local council or the trip was entirely within the borders of the local council. Anyhow, I reviewed the tour plan form earlier today, and it mentions drivers needing CDLs only if the vehicle has a passenger capacity of more than 15 passengers.
I still very much doubt this will happen, but if the group wants to move forward I will probably have someone from the local council look at the vehicle to see if it meets the requirements.
I don't think insurance would be a problem. Parents drive scouts in private vehicles all the time. We used to have a family that owned a 15 passenger van that helped haul Scouts to events.
As for seat count in your bus, there are two ways to count seats. If you can sit on it then it obviously can be used as a seat when parked.
However, for it to count as a seat while in motion, it needs to have a proper seat belt.
If your bus has 14 seat belts, then the Boy Scouts will be fine with it.
Seat belt requirements get fuzzy when you have 'compartmentalized seating' like a standard tour bus. If lawyers are involved, you don't want to provide them with any fuzzys.
Having passangers sign a release waiver would be a very good idea.
I know from personal experience that helping the Boy Scouts is one of the most rewarding things you can ever do. 8)
I donated a lot of time,money,machinery and labor to BSA at the Zink ranch in Ok then one day it stopped for me when I found out they paid the CEO over $1,500,000 a year that one just took my breath away
I never went back and I moved all the equipment out I felt like they used me a man trying to help young men and a guy making that kind of money in fact I had bought the camp a Maytag Neptune washer and drier system it pissed me off so bad I took it home
good luck.
I would stay away! Let them hire a commercial charter company. If anything happened while they are on your bus, you would be in deep poopoo. The kids parents have friends that are lawyers, and they will be all over you.
JC
Quote from: luvrbus on September 15, 2011, 05:28:54 PM
I donated a lot of time,money,machinery and labor to BSA at the Zink ranch in Ok then one day it stopped for me when I found out they paid the CEO over $1,500,000 a year that one just took my breath away
The actual salary of the CEO of Boy Scouts of America is about $600,000. It is on the high side, but not overly excessive for the total budget of the organization. The reason for the high salary for the one year for the CEO was that was the year he retired and most of his retirement funds were included in the reported $1.5 million amount. I read at one website that the CEO of the Boy Scouts is paid less as a percentage of expenses than most non-profit CEOs.
I've worked with a lot of the Scout professionals from the local council and they are paid a mere pittance. Most only stay a few years because they are worked to death and the pay is so little. They work in the office during the day and most of them attend Scouting functions at least a few nights a week.
I did 50 hours of construction work at a local Scout camp this past summer and I'll do it again next summer. They could not survive without volunteer labor. Boy Scout summer camps are some of the least expensive around. Our troop charged $290 for a week of summer camp this summer. The fee included bus to/from camp, food, lodging, and program. I was astounded to read an ad for some other summer camp that charged over $1,000 a week!
Brian, I just read the Scouting News web in 2009 the BSA CEO was the 5th highest paid in that class salary of 1,577,660.00 a year pretty good huh
I can guarantee they won't be hiring a charter company. They don't have anywhere close to enough attendees to afford a charter bus. The other alternative they are looking at is renting a 12 passenger van. Flying hasn't been ruled out, but the cost of the shuttle from the nearest large airport and the baggage fee make that a costly option. Denver and Albuquerque are the suggested airports, but they are both over 200 miles away.
Like I said before I think the idea of using my bus probably isn't going to work. I've driven Scouts in my personal vehicles dozens or hundreds of times and liability has never even entered my mind. I do have auto insurance that far exceeds the BSA requirements.
Quote from: luvrbus on September 15, 2011, 06:06:15 PM
Brian, I just read the Scouting News web in 2009 the BSA CEO was the 5th highest paid in that class salary of 1,577,660.00 a year pretty good huh
2007 was the year the Boy Scouts CEO retired and his retirement benefits were included in the $1.5 million he was paid that year. His actual salary that year was right around $405,000 because he retired in September 2007. The issue didn't become big news until 2009 when some organization compiled non-profit CEO salary data from 2007 Form 990s filed with the IRS. If my employer included the value of my pension in my reported salary for my last year of work my pay would look awfully high too.