I was talking with a mechanic friend and was asking about changing fuel injectors and running the rack. I suspect I have a injector slobbering a little on start up. He suggested to add a quart of ATF to loosen the injectors up. He stated that he has had luck doing this but didn't work all the time. I thought I would throw this out here and see if any have tried it and or had any luck with this.
I added quart to try it out. I can't see what it will hurt.
John
Interesting. Where did he get his degree in chemical engineering?
Quote from: prevosman on September 02, 2011, 03:59:41 PM
Interesting. Where did he get his degree in chemical engineering?
Not sure but I think he has used some chemicals in his younger life LOL
John
I know a lot of people who use ATF in their diesel engines. I have heard of people putting a little 2 cycle oil in their cars to add a little lubricant to the cylinder walls, valves etc and was told that ATF acts the same way in diesel engines. Don't know if it is true, but I always add a little ATF to my diesel tractors fuel just in case, it has never hurt anything. The trick to adding 2 cycle oil to your gas engine is to not add to much, or you could foul the plugs.
Filling you fuel filter with ATF when you change your filter is "olde School". Will break your pump on the new high pressure common rail engines. But....is great PM for the injectors on all others. For the new engines you fill the filter half full with Naphtha, AKA Coleman lantern fuel, and that cleans the newer injectors without the viscosity issues. I have never done this but I have gotten the info from what i considered reputable sources at the time. There are tons of commercial cleaners that you can add to the filter prime to increase the concentration and improve the likelihood that they will clean anything. Marvels Mystery Oil is a favorite and proven effective and safe as directed.
TRUST BUT VERIFY.....right?
John
My father used to add some ATF to his diesel Caddy with each fill-up. He had said that truckers commonly did that back then. I have been adding a quart of vegetable oil once in a while. I read that it is a good lube. I don't know that it works, but I doubt it could do any damage in such a small concentration.
Quote from: prevosman on September 02, 2011, 03:59:41 PM
Interesting. Where did he get his degree in chemical engineering?
People have been putting ATF in diesels since before I could drive. Every injection service shop I ever dealt with in Minnesota recommended it, as did my Mercedes dealer and people in the Mercedes Club. Its very high detergent, and cleans up areas that diesel fuel wont. Its also claimed to burn at higher temps and can burn off deposits in the compustion chamber and clear the rings.
Is all that true? Dont know, but I never heard anyone ever say anything different. Until they started dying fuel that is. Today, if you put ATF in your tank, and your stopped to check your fuel, it is going to test red and they will claim its untaxed dyed off road diesel. And this isnt your Granfathers United States, or His Courts, they do not have to prove your guilty, they already saw your red fuel. You have to prove your case by paying to have your fuel tested. And IIRC, ATF is colored with red aniline dye so your still screwed.
I used to use it, and often saw good results, smoother running, less smoke, less diesel knock, but states like MN have become so Gestapo I just dont use it anymore.
On certain derby engines (yes I have purpose built ones) I put 2 cycle mix in the gas. Some of my friends use trans fluid. It helps with a few things that have already been covered.
My grandfather also used tranny fluid as a cleaner on really dirty excavation parts when doing repairs.
Eric
A little can't hurt! My brother has a 7.3l in his ford truck and is running straight ATF fluid for his fuel. He gets it from a transmission rebuild shop and runs it through some filters and ends up with free fuel. Actually runs great and no smoke. A quart in our huge tanks shouldn't hurt anything.
I don't get this at all. ATF is basically just about motor oil with some additives that make it work well in a transmission. It's not a cleaning fluid, or a solvent. Diesel fuel is probably a better cleaner. I can't for the life of me understand why any one would think that ATF is good for injectors, or better for them than a cleaner additive specifically designed for the task.
Brian
Well, most of the cleaner additives are just someone elses guess at something that may or may not work that they can sell to you. Just because it comes from Shell or Mobil or JB, doesnt make it superdooper. Many around the aviation world swear by Marvel Mystery Oil. They add it to their fuel, pour it into their engine oil, and make all kind of claims, most of them quite accurate. ATF is not simply motor oil with additives, its a very light, highly detergent hydraulic oil that also offers good lubrication under extreme pressures and extreme temperatures.
Back when I was young it was quite common for American cars to get a sticking lifter, and the best fix was a jug of ATF. Nothing else even came close. Sometimes one shot of ATF and you would never hear that clacking lifter ever again. I almost always have an oil can with ATF, its good for all kind of things. And if your working on dirty greasy sooty diesel parts, nothing cleans your hands like ATF.
Quote from: artvonne on September 03, 2011, 05:10:24 AM
Many around the aviation world swear by Marvel Mystery Oil. They add it to their fuel, pour it into their engine oil, and make all kind of claims, most of them quite accurate. i
I used to think that Marvel Mystery was just another snake oil. Then a friend of mine bought a 48 Caddy. Ran like something out of a Keystone cops movie, clanged and banged and sounded like it was going to blow up!
I stood there and rolled my eyes as he put in the Marvel oil then we took a short drive. That motor smoothed out as we drove, if I had not seen it I would not have believed it!
Of course we did not have 2 so we could do a scientific comparison. Would it have smoothed out without the oil? I don't know.
JIm
I really cannot can see what putting ATF or VO in the Detroit you would be accomplishing makes no sense to me period,carbon build up is the problem most have and I remove that with a spray bottle and water not much of a problem any longer with the new fuels so why add something that causes more ash and carbon.
The low sulfur fuels where always the best for a 2 stroke from the beginning in 1938,the injectors pop at a very low pressure not like the higher pressure on a comman rail system or the injection pump systems.
Not to start anything but I have a friend that is a blender his 6v92 is on it's last leg with 80,000 miles of blending after a complete rebuild blending really ups the heat on a 2 stroke just like the heavy off road diesel would
good luck
http://www.powerstroke.org/forum/bio-diesel-alternative-fuels-supplements/53347-waste-motor-oil-diesel-fuel-blend-8.html (http://www.powerstroke.org/forum/bio-diesel-alternative-fuels-supplements/53347-waste-motor-oil-diesel-fuel-blend-8.html)
This isn't anything recent but there are a lot of comments I found interesting. WMO and ATF and a "guy" burning straight ATF and even an ill-informed individual that states that ATF has no detergents in it. I say ill-informed as all the "gossip" I have read indicates that ATF is rich in detergents.
Some of this goes into the current uses for WMO and other WO byproducts. Seems only one county in Wisconsin or Minnesota Its in the thread) REQUIRES a annual plan for EVERYBODY that produces Waste oil products. Closely regulated, they, the Gummint, requires that every "generator" produce a PLAN for disposal of even oil soaked floor sweepings. It all goes into asphalt making plants. EVEN THE OLD OIL FILTERS are burned in furnaces and the residual metals are sold as scrap. That kind of Gummint interference wouldn't work in -VIRGINIA- (insert the name of any state not doing this). Engine oil filters!!!!! Amazing. And to think "I NEVER HEARD OF THAT" but then, what does that prove, anyway. Maybe that I am getting smarter and learning stuff. Hmmmmmmm! If I discovered nothing new I would probably be reading discarded kindergarden books.....no wait... I seem to have skidded off the path on a pile once again.
Enjoy and profit, The more stuff used as fuel will make more affordable fuel for the rest of us and maybe all that nonpolluting stuff is just a unintended benefit. Hmmmmm? Curses! Gored again.
John
Yeah Clifford...
They might as well be using #3 bunker fuel. I do pour motor oil or ATF or whatever is handy into my secondary filter since the PO in his infinite wisdom mounted the secondary filter at about a 10° angle and I can't change it without a major rework of the mount system and I'm really too lazy to do that unless it really becomes a problem. Trying to fill a spin on filter and attach it @ an angle while using diesel sucks big alpine green weenies. My answer is to fill with oil until full and spin it on quickly. The thicker viscosity keeps the fuel in the filter and I don't have a problem repriming. The oil travels through the system and if it happens to go through the injectors, it won't hurt a thing.
Also, with our low pressure injectors, loose tolerances and antique engineering, a bit of build up can't hurt to tighten stuff up! (Kidding here).
At one time I serviced a pair of 2 valve 6-71's running pumps with the outside fuel rails at a sugar beet factory. These engines had been running constantly since the 1950's. Even during oil changes they continued to run. 4 sets of filters, 2 sets of valves. Turn off one set of filters, turn on the other set. Replace old filters, open valve in top of engine to add oil, open valve in pan to drain oil. drain until oil comes out clear. Shut off drain, watch sight gauge until pan shows full, shut off fresh oil valve. Turn freshly changed filter back on, turn older filters off. Replace older filters and turn them back on.
Now the kicker..... The used oil we dumped into the twin 2500 gallon fuel tanks. Doesn't sound like much until you find out that each engine took 55 gallons of oil per change and figuring the extra from losses while draining, was closer to 75 gallons.
Again, these engines had been running constantly at 1600 rpm since the 1950's, still using the same injectors, the same canister oil filters and the same sock/cartridge secondary fuel filters with the brass strainer primaries.
One engine finally did go down on my watch when a coolant pump impeller grenaded. While they were replacing that, We replaced the main and rod bearings, replaced the injectors and ran the rack. We didn't even pull the air box covers to see what shape the pistons/liners and rings were in.
The old bearings looked like they just came from the factory, the injectors we pulled were still in great shape. I wanted to replace the canister fuel and oil filters with spin ons, but the bosses deemed in not needed. In retrospect, I have to agree..... There's no real telling how many hours those engines ran 24/7/365 from 195? until 1990 when we did the major work.
Quote from: luvrbus on September 03, 2011, 08:37:51 AM
I really cannot can see what putting ATF or VO in the Detroit you would be accomplishing makes no sense to me period,carbon build up is the problem most have and I remove that with a spray bottle and water not much of a problem any longer with the new fuels so why add something that causes more ash and carbon.
The low sulfur fuels where always the best for a 2 stroke from the beginning in 1938,the injectors pop at a very low pressure not like the higher pressure on a conman rail system.
Not to start anything but I have a friend that is a blender his 6v92 is on it's last leg with 80,000 miles of blending after a complete rebuild blending really ups the heat on a 2 stroke just like the heavy off road diesel would
good luck
Yea Dallas but 55 gals in 2500 gals is a far cry from the 50/50 blend some are telling you it is ok, how Ford gets into the picture with a high pressure Stanadyne injection pump compared to a 2 stroke I am working on that one lol.
Remember the old 6-71's in the oil patch that had the water injection to remove carbon the compression would start going up and they would start to knock and blowing oil shoot the water to those they would blow that crap all over you then go back to normal for another 3 or 4 months.
good luck
Yup, I agree completely. If you look at 75 gallons, (what we normally used for a change) ÷ 2500 = about .03%
The guys that are adding a quart now and then in their 150 gallon fuel tank are getting a dilution of .25 (a quarter of a gallon) ÷ 150 = .00166666666666%
My point is that they'll probably get more dirt and water scouring their injectors than they will oil.
I'm a great believer in a squirt of water into the intake to clean out the cylinders.
Good luck with the Ford ........ As Sgt. Shultz said, "I know Nuthink, I see Nuthink" besides, I had enough fun dealing with the JD 4020 injection that the owner replaced all the fuel lines with vinyl water line or something like it so he could see when he had air in the lines.
Quote from: luvrbus on September 03, 2011, 09:50:41 AM
Yea Dallas but 55 gals in 2500 gals is a far cry from the 50/50 blend some are telling you it is ok, how Ford gets into the picture with a high pressure Stanadyne injection pump compared to a 2 stroke I am working on that one lol
good luck
Quote from: Just Dallas on September 03, 2011, 09:32:11 AM
. . .At one time I serviced a pair of 2 valve 6-71's running pumps with the outside fuel rails at a sugar beet factory. These engines had been running constantly since the 1950's. Even during oil changes they continued to run.
. . .There's no real telling how many hours those engines ran 24/7/365 from 195? until 1990 when we did the major work.
But I'll bet that we could get close to the number with a calculator. ;D
That's interesting. In about 1990 I saw an engine that was just removed from service, supposedly it had been running practically 24/7 since 1960, or so. The engine was still in good condition. It was a big Waukesha six turning at something like 800 rpm and fueled by natural gas.
Sorry about the interruption, I have already jammed up one perfectly good thread this weekend.
Let the ATF burning resume.
Ted
Too much ash and carbon buildup, that engine expired! ;D
We had 5500 HP Cooper Bessemer engines 16V 250 rpm, natural gas engines at Tenneco they were never shut down they were equipped with a Lomar oil recovery system to keep the oil clean never saw one shut down even for a oil change they used a ash less oil
good luck
Quote from: Just Dallas on September 03, 2011, 10:22:00 AM
My point is that they'll probably get more dirt and water scouring their injectors than they will oil.
Not to put too fine a point on it, your right again. ::)
Boy howdy have I taken some flack over the years about putting water into a running engine. Not a squirt now mind you....I had the hose out for the events. Maybe a hundred of them total in my life. I guess it works, can't say that I noticed much performance change. When I took the heads off to "look" for myself that water had everything blasted down to light brown varnish. In plug changes prior to the agua event I had crusty ash and stuff in there all over everything. I am not advocating anything so anyone that wants can pile on Dallas. ;D
I think modern chemistry has given us better products to do the de-carbon job but water works...evidently.
Thanks Dallas,
John
Once had a mechanic dump some ATF in a carb of a Dodge 318 to clean it out while running. Worked ok.
Thanks all
I have been out camping the last few days in the bus but have enjoyed to read all the responses to my question. I usually don't believe in snake oil but my 88 ford pickup would drop a liter when pulling a hill under load. This would happen quit often an the lifter would pump back up on the other side of the hill if I took it easy. I put some kind of snake oil additive in and have not had any trouble since. The engine at the time had well over two hundred thousand miles and is still going.
Thanks
John
This just brought back a memory... Way back in the day when first started racing there was a series for stock Honda Civic's. It was a Pro series, had sponsorship, prize money, and people took it pretty seriously. So one guy is revving up his engine to the red line and pouring in the ATF and making a total pain of himself with all the smoke. People go over to ask him to stop, he says he needs to clean out the engine, he has a miss. Pouring in the AFT, revving the snot out of it, all of a sudden a bang and a rod comes out the side... He had hydraulic'd a cylinder! ;D, we all cheered!
Brian