BK's Easter DL3 post encouraged me to ask some questions that have been on my mind for a while. We're still quite a ways financially from buying a chassis, but I'm aware that my attention to particular models is beginning to focus. And that's OK, as it allows me to focus my education a bit. Every day that goes by, I learn a bit more here about our future walls and wheels. It would be our hope to full time at some point in the future.
I started thinking about a bus conversion with an MC9 in mind. I drove MC9's in charter service once upon a time and had a good experience with them. As time goes on, the additional space available in the 102DL3's appeals to me, though. I've discounted the other 102" MCI's, because I kinda figure that once I accept a 102" wide chassis, I might as well get the extra 5 feet in the rear. (I'm more concerned about being 102" wide than 45 feet long, especially with the steering tag).
I'll note that the "house mechanical" is mostly work I'll do almost entirely myself. The bus mechanical is currently a bit beyond me, but I learn more every day. As a result, I'll probably be outsourcing quite a bit of it.
MC9's:
- workhorse of the industry
- bugs are either worked out or well known
- pre-1984 may need steering upgrades
- readily available for $5-$10k
- older MC9's have lots of skeletons in the closet (several previous "retrofits" likely)
MC12's
- most of the benefits of the MC9, a few updates
- probably interchangeable with the MC9's, but may have fewer skeletons
102DL3's
- 20% more square footage
- way more headroom (I'm right at 6 foot) - no need for a roof raise
- prices start at about $25-30k
- most common engine is the DD60, which is more fuel efficient than what's generally found in MC9's and MC12's
Questions:
- When the DL3 came out, they had a reputation for not having the reliability of the MC9. We're now about 20 years down the road. Is a 20 year old DL3 likely to be significantly less reliable than a 40 year old MC9?
- At least in the early days, it's my understanding that the tag axles had a reputation for being problematic and expensive to fix. Again, we're 20 years down the road. Have these issues been addressed on most of the buses, or are owners experiencing long term maintenance issues with the steering tags?
- For those of you who have bought 102DL3's, do you ever rethink your platform choice?
- Ultimately, the question is, are maintenance costs on a 102DL3 likely to be less than, equal to, or greater than, a somewhat "comparable" MC9. (Noting, of course, that nothing is truly comparable, when it comes to used anything).
Many thanks for your thoughts!
-jbn
How about the 102A2 that is a nice bus 102 wide 40ft long no tag
good luck
I drove and maintained a 1995 D3 for our local Junior B hockey team for a few years.
S60, 12.7 liter, pre EGR, with 7 speed manual, very reliable, lots of torque and power, goes up the hills like a car, that is a huge difference from MC9 or anything from that era. And same fuel milage.
So if you can spend the extra $, it would be worth it.
OTOH, you can buy an already converted 9 really cheap.
I have a 5C now with 6V92/HT740, slow up the hills, but gorgeous, and got it for a fraction of building cost. We love it just as much as a million dollar bus.
Maintenance cost are going to be the same more or less with a D compared to an older bus.
JC
Does anyone know the interior headroom of a DL3? I'm curious cause I'm at 6 foot as well. We raised our MC9 roof 9 inches and we've never been more thankful! Headroom is a major consideration as it allows us 6 footers to either feel claustrophobic and ducking all the time or feel completely at home and comfortable. If you are averse to the work of raising a roof and reinforcing it post raise, then I'm with you on buying a coach with more stock headroom.
Go with the DL3!! You have about 6'10" of headroom, a modern Series 60 engine that anyone can work on (compared to the 2 stroke engines that good mechanics are becoming few and fair between), and will get much better fuel mileage then a 2 stroker-like 2mpg difference.
I have a transit with 6'10" of headroom-I'm 6'3" and can walk under the roof airs. My bus is also a 102" and that extra width is really noticable. With the big windows, I don't wish for a slide out ever (especially with slide outs mechanical problems). Good Luck, TomC
The tags on the DL3 need to be checked by someone competent.
They are floppy followers, not "steering". The "E" model has true steering tags.
The "D" can get into situations where the tags will go on the rebellion while backing, jamming over the wrong way and dragging, but there is often shades of driver error involved and wheel lock to wheel lock changes to back up. Alignment and irregular tire wear issues have to kept up.
Some fleets solved the D tag trouble by locking them up and leaving them that way. Turns like a battle ship.
If the tags were returned to spec, and aligned by someone who really knows what to do, they will well serve a busnut.
The DL3's were also prone to delaminating of the sides, if body maintenance issues were allowed to fester. Those coaches also were good at tearing up the floors. They flex a lot.
All that said, they are the last of the MCI's that I really felt the best driving. The sight lines are much better than the E and J twins. I don't like the tall dash and large pillar beside my head in those.
You'd have to pay me to take an ex Greyhound MC12. They have been run to death and been completely under capitalized their entire operating lives. Truly used up like no Greyhound before them.
MC9, as I recall, the steering change was in 1982, best to check for sure so you aren't discounting otherwise good candidates.
I really like driving the MC9 too. Finding a rare stock 8V92 with a 5 speed would inspire a call to the bank manager .... and a divorce.
happy coaching!
buswarrior
Am I out of line here by bringing up the 45 foot length issue in regards to camp sites? The way my MC8 turns, I'd hate to drive anything bigger.
Quote from: rcbeam on August 18, 2011, 01:31:46 PM
Am I out of line here by bringing up the 45 foot length issue in regards to camp sites? The way my MC8 turns, I'd hate to drive anything bigger.
In my view, out of line would be telling me that not even [insert favorite soon-to-be-jailed politician] would ever be caught in a [insert bus here]. 8)
It's my understanding that the DL3, with its trailing tag (per above, not a true "steering" tag), should be able to turn into a tight spot about as well as a 40 footer. Of course, all the turning radius in the world doesn't help when the owner of said spot limits it to 35 or 40 foot beasts.
Then again, there are those who would suggest that most of turning is in the turner, not the turned. ;D (Now who's out of line?)
-jbn
I have a 43 foot Dina. To me, it turns pretty darn good. It does have a short wheelbase comparatively which helps.
I maybe dreaming but I think James Koler has a D series that is a 40 ft bus how about it you MCI guys was there a D series 40 ft long ? his is a 1994 or 95 model
good luck
The 102D3 is 40'. The 102DL3 is 45'.
-jbn
MC8 and pre-upgrade MC9 turn like crap. I got an MC8.
A DL3 with the tags locked turns like an MC8, so maybe that's a compliment for the 45 footer?
40 foot D model, D3, turns not bad, same as late 9 and 102 ABC.
The J model and the Prevost H345 turn like crap.
The E model is a dream, if you can control tail swinging into the next county, and pay to keep the tag steering aligned and tires on it.
My test has always been the shopping mall parking lot. If you can venture with a given coach where the seniors in a Cadillac will go, that coach is alright.
happy coaching!
buswarrior
Reviving this old thread. Same basic questions but now 2017. I'm leaning toward a pre-EGR MCI 102 Series 60. Most likely a mid 90's 102D3.
What is the current market, i.e. realistic purchase price of a solid one now?
I'm in California if that makes a difference. Since it will be registered as a private RV, no DPF needed or wanted.
In the used MCI 102D market, a busnut has some choices: 40 or 45 foot coaches, 11.1 or 12.7 litre S60 engines, with and without Jake brakes, DDEC3 or DDEC4 engine controls. Transmissions 6 speed Allison automatic, with and without retarder or 7 speed Spicer.
My bias would be a 40 footer with a DDEC3 12.7 S60 and 6 speed Allison with retarder.
If it has a wheelchair door, I'd only get a factory install only, if it is aftermarket, no thank you.
There are some down in the $15-25K area. check the bus brokers, beware of those couple of scam bus broker sites. If they don't have the coach right there in their hands....
happy coaching!
buswarrior
I don't care for the retarder on a B500. At least the ones I have driven have an abrupt on and off, even at the lowest setting. Plus it heats up the transmission really fast and hot. I'll take Jakes any time.
The 6 speed B500 is great, and smooth. If you like shifting gears, the 7 speed manual Eaton Fuller is also really good. 1st gear is really low, and will climb a tree at idle. With a pre EGR 12.7 S60, it takes a big hill to have to down shift out of 7th. A manual will be tough to resell, because very few people want a manual anymore.
JC
Quote from: lostagain on February 24, 2017, 11:53:18 AM
I don't care for the retarder on a B500. At least the ones I have driven have an abrupt on and off, even at the lowest setting. Plus it heats up the transmission really fast and hot. I'll take Jakes any time.
The 6 speed B500 is great, and smooth. If you like shifting gears, the 7 speed manual Eaton Fuller is also really good. 1st gear is really low, and will climb a tree at idle. With a pre EGR 12.7 S60, it takes a big hill to have to down shift out of 7th. A manual will be tough to resell, because very few people want a manual anymore.
JC
I don't use the retarder on my B500 I like the Jakes best
Thanks. My research, as well as common sense, indicates the Series 60 is a more easily serviced plant over the older 2-strokes. More current design so more true experienced diesel mechanics, more plentiful parts, maybe less costly to operate both in terms of service cost and better mileage.
There are some available in the $15k target which really has perked my interest in the newer motor/tranny options.
Naturally, there are fewer used conversions based on this combination so harder to find one if deciding to get one already converted. At this point (2017), other than more costly purchase up front, what pros/benefits remain to choose an older 2-stroke based bus?
Thanks again
The choice of engine type for a busnut is secondary to engine condition.
No matter what you buy, if you have to do an engine re-build, the project just went completely upside down financially.
If not a complete financial ruin, and project abandonment.
Pick a coach that will do the job you need it to do.
That said, if there is an uninformed stampede away from 2 strokes, those "unfortunate" coaches will have some big value in them.
happy coaching!
buswarrior
I had the 102c3 with the 6v92ta ddec set at 350 hp and liked the 40' and the 6'10" . was a easy build but if I would do it today yes the 94-95 102d ( 40 ') with a cat or a 60 series and the 6 speed auto would be my choice . I did not want to put that kind of $$$ into a conversion again so thats why I have a store bought rv now and love the power and yes pre egr is nice
dave
Believe it or not 2 stroke DD engines are not emission exempt in the Phoenix area like CA, it not that hard to get one to pass if in 1/2 way good shape though lol I gotten a few by by a thin hair.Good thing about a series 60 if it was ever in a authorized DD dealer it will be on record and with a Pro/Link it will weed out the not so honest sellers , the computer (ECM) tells all
You need to think seriously whether you need to have a 45 footer over 40. Even though it can steer as well as a 40, it is still awfully long. Campsites and in smaller rural towns....If you only run interstates and avoid shopping centers...Maybe. Yeah, I know, charter companies do it all the time. When I went to the 4905, I missed some of the manuverability of the 4104. Especially rural roads in New England.
Quote from: luvrbus on February 24, 2017, 02:37:03 PMI did not want to put that kind of $$$ into a conversion again so thats why I have a store bought rv now ...
Meaning it would be less costly and faster to go with a factory built RV? I hear loudly and often the warning to all who will listen that taking on a DIY conversion is a costly and lengthy project that is hardly a guarantee it will even see the road . I'm needing more convincing but at this point still feel I can build in what I want without undue cost (not necessarily cheaper) or time. I do plan on doing all the coach work myself and gradually pick up some of the mechanical service tasks.
Quote from: luvrbus on February 24, 2017, 02:37:03 PM
Good thing about a series 60 if it was ever in a authorized DD dealer it will be on record and with a Pro/Link it will weed out the not so honest sellers , the computer (ECM) tells all
Good to know. Once recorded with Pro/Link does the ECM log continue recording including recent events and status? It seems that would be really valuable to know the condition of the sensored components.
Yes, really leaning toward 35' or 40' max. Just don't feel the need for more space nor increased usage hassles. Another thread does pose the question about length. Based on research and my needs, a 45' is at the bottom of the list. Even a 40' like the D series may not be necessary.
The 4107 in mind is older of course but the length feels adequate but I know the extra 5' and 102" width would make a measurable difference. The specific bus is unusual that the owner for the past 10 years has a suitcase of documentation and logs and very open to have any inspection or additional road tests done. Clearly, nothing to hide and no surprise bus is in really good shape.
Quote from: windtrader on February 24, 2017, 05:44:12 PM
The 4107 in mind is older of course...
NAME??I hated the 4107/4108s in the charter company's fleet I worked for, and it wasn't because of poor maintenance - it was because they were a huge PITA to drive when it was really windy.
The tall sides on the short wheelbase became a big sail that would often have you changing lanes without your permission! Loading the bus with 35 passengers upstairs and no luggage down below resulted in wallowing along the road like a drunken fool - which became even worse if the wind started blowing...(Think the crosswinds on I-80 around Fairfield,)
And then there was the kneecap-destroying dashboard switch panel...
OTOH, this model's big brother, the 4905, rode/drove like a dream comparatively. The extra five feet of wheelbase, plus anti-roll bars front and rear, made all the difference in the world.
FWIW & HTH...
We added a 4905 anti roll bar to our 4104. We needed to do a little fabrication to brackets but well worth it.
if you can find a already converted coach that you like you can rip out the inside and re do as you like . this way a lot of the things you need are already there and will save a TON of $$ and time . why I went back to a store bought rv was a found a high end unit ( at a very low price ) with the slide , engine, transmission and all the parts needed already there . it was our choice to RIP out the interior and rebuild with what was there the way we wanted it . at a very low cost ( $ 2000 for the rip out , redo + 8 tires at $ 3400 ) yes I would have rather had a bus but at the level of what I got ( rv ) it was way more $ then I wanted to spend . there are lots of bus conversions out there or high end rvs that have been not used or neglected and have been sitting for some time and the people will take a lot less then the add is asking for .
the 1st bus I converted was a lot of money spent and never got back but was very happy with the price I got for it when we sold it.
I did not want to have a 45' coach but have adjusted for it . but there is more room and my wife does like that . as for driving it over the 40' coach it is about the same other then it is way way faster up the hills . as for state parks yes it is a pain in the a$$ to get in and out and there are a lot of sites we can't get into . so if you can I would go with a 40 ' coach with a newer engine , transmission
dave
I did some research the D model has the largest number of units ever produced by MCI over 12,000 since 1994 so they should start dropping in price even more as the cities like Houston Metro starts selling off their older DL,Houston just ordered another 165 D's from MCI
I am biased, so my opinion will be also.
I have MC8 and 10' of clearance to back into my driveway. It steers, turns, and backs up as easily as a car. The radiator scoops are under appreciated for backing purposes. Dad was 6'5" and never had headroom issues.
I, of course, would go for the MC9 between those choices. But, you have to make the choice based on what is sensible to you. I would only add that the more stainless steel the better. I prefer it to fiberglass.